Author Topic: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents  (Read 7263 times)

Sawdust

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2011, 12:30:19 PM »
Well. . . this world is rough.
And if a man's gonna make it, he's gotta be tough.

And I knew I wouldn't be there to help you along.
So I gave ya that name and said goodbye...

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Tallpine

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2011, 12:35:22 PM »
"A Girl Named Bill"

 :lol:
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2011, 01:12:32 PM »
Am I the only one who doesn't have an issue with this?

First of all, the kid will determine its own gender soon enough and make what mom and dad decide mote anyway.
The goal seems to be letting the kid find its own ideal of gender, not no gender for life.

My issue with these types of things is more along the line that they say 'no gender' and then raise the kids with a distinctly female approch. Which is not 'no gender'.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2011, 01:32:00 PM »
No, it's okay.

It's just these parents are a convenient target for some.
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makattak

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2011, 01:48:41 PM »
Am I the only one who doesn't have an issue with this?

First of all, the kid will determine its own gender soon enough and make what mom and dad decide mote anyway.
The goal seems to be letting the kid find its own ideal of gender, not no gender for life.

My issue with these types of things is more along the line that they say 'no gender' and then raise the kids with a distinctly female approch. Which is not 'no gender'.


How do you define "soon enough"?

What qualifications do a child of the age that you suppose will be "soon enough" have for making such decisions? What kind of experience will he have on which to base that decision?

How many years prior to that "soon enough" will intercede where the child is being given mixed, confusing signals and what role do those years have for creating a stable personality? Could we toss a child to the wolves for the first 5 years of his life and then fix all the deficiencies once he "decides" that he is a person?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2011, 01:50:40 PM »
Quote
How many years prior to that "soon enough" will intercede where the child is being given mixed, confusing signals and what role do those years have for creating a stable personality? Could we toss a child to the wolves for the first 5 years of his life and then fix all the deficiencies once he "decides" that he is a person?

What is a 'stable personality'?

Do you think humanity has failed if our children are not all five-to-nine-working, suit-and-tie-wearing marriage-and-children Republican voters?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

makattak

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2011, 01:53:08 PM »
What is a 'stable personality'?

Do you think humanity has failed if our children are not all five-to-nine-working, suit-and-tie-wearing marriage-and-children Republican voters?

No, but these parents (and our society if we encourage it) has failed that child if we encourage him to think (excuse me, "feel like") he is something that he is not.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AJ Dual

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2011, 03:53:56 PM »
Well, literature is rife with psychological damage of medically transgendered/hermaphroditic children being forced into the wrong gender by their parents.

So where does the supposition come from that it's not also harmful to not recognize the gender of a child who arguably does have an established gender?

Furthermore, even as a rather individualistic Libertarian, I still have to recognize that Homo Sapiens is a social mammal. Therefore, what the rest of your surrounding population and embedded culture thinks does matter, at least to a degree. And if someone wants to argue that gender roles are some sort of socially constructed artifice, we have had what amounts to double-blind control studies of sorts. Isolated indigenous people around the world that have gone without outside contact by other groups for thousands of years have all had gender identities/roles present in their societies.

Also, I'll go out on a limb and state that people who hold to the idea of gender as artifice, and feel it's "imposed" from without, generally tend to be liberal politically, and secular in outlook. As such one can assume that these people take a scientific/evolutionary view of human development.

So I'd have to ask, do the "natural" great apes have gender roles and identities? Don't juvenile gorilla and chimpanzee females cradle sticks, while the males throw them?

If someone seriously wants to argue that there is no risk of harm to their children, or any possibility that their "experiment" is unethical, I'd think they'd also have to agree that the The Tuskegee Syphilis Study wasn't harmful or unethical either.  =|

No one should construe what I say to mean that this gives anyone, society, or family, the right to force a gender role/identity on someone who does not feel such a role is for them, and came to that conclusion of their own free will. At the same time though, I'd argue what these parents are doing through "inaction" is no less damaging.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 03:57:16 PM by AJ Dual »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2011, 05:34:23 PM »
Quote
we have had what amounts to double-blind control studies of sorts. Isolated indigenous people around the world that have gone without outside contact by other groups for thousands of years have all had gender identities/roles present in their societies.

Indeed and we have societies which are more ambiguous on this topic than our own, and even allow diversions from the binary model.

I do not subscribe to the model that 'gender is entirely learned/social', but it is also not entirely natural and binary either.
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Viking

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2011, 06:18:00 PM »
Storm, Jazz and Kio.  That's a great idea.  Let's give our kids names that guarantee they will be harassed and get their asses kicked on a daily basis.  ;/
It's a hat-trick of stripperific names! ;/
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AJ Dual

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2011, 06:29:09 PM »
Indeed and we have societies which are more ambiguous on this topic than our own, and even allow diversions from the binary model.

I do not subscribe to the model that 'gender is entirely learned/social', but it is also not entirely natural and binary either.

What... like the Xanith's of Oman and other ME nations?

(shrug) Presumably few, if any of them were forced into the Xanith role by their families, or were raised "gender neutral" in some sort of attempt to let the child find out if they wanted to be male, female, or xanith...

Just an opinion, but gender is about 90%+ natural and binary... And people mess with it at the peril of their children's ability to be a happy functioning adult.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2011, 08:47:56 PM »
I was thinking of those fellows in the Far East who live as a woman up to a certain age and then commence living as males. However I cannot for the life of me remember where they are or what they are called.
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De Selby

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2011, 09:42:51 PM »
I was thinking of those fellows in the Far East who live as a woman up to a certain age and then commence living as males. However I cannot for the life of me remember where they are or what they are called.

It's an interesting question, whether consciousness of gender and policing its perceived requirements contributes to a person's confidence in their identity or destroys it.

I would not be surprised if some day researchers discover that the primary cause of gender identity crises is constant delineation and reinforcement of gender roles.  Telling a boy what it means to be a man may lead him to question his gender whenever he has some tendency that doesn't comport with that vision, where he might have been perfectly comfortable otherwise.
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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2011, 11:18:29 PM »
Storm, Jazz and Kio.  That's a great idea.  Let's give our kids names that guarantee they will be harassed and get their asses kicked on a daily basis.  ;/

That's the thing to do these days...give the kids really oddball names, or even "normal" names with very *expletive deleted*ed up spelling...

This is the kind of *expletive deleted*it that makes kids murder their parents in their sleep.



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AJ Dual

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Re: Poor child of stupid, selfish parents
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2011, 11:40:18 PM »
It's an interesting question, whether consciousness of gender and policing its perceived requirements contributes to a person's confidence in their identity or destroys it.

I would not be surprised if some day researchers discover that the primary cause of gender identity crises is constant delineation and reinforcement of gender roles.  Telling a boy what it means to be a man may lead him to question his gender whenever he has some tendency that doesn't comport with that vision, where he might have been perfectly comfortable otherwise.

That's a good question.

Or, it could just be from being forced to live in a highly stratified sex-segregated society... like the ME or an American prison.
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