How to not recruit people for jobs

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Then they deserve to go under if their business model depends on hiring STEM graduates at minimum wage.

Brilliant!  Let's put all of the engineering firms out of business because they can't afford to hire STEM grads for $150k/yr.  I'm sure that'll solve the unemployment problem right quick. 

[KD5NRH]

Kind of like the guy on the news complaining about not being able to find or retain experienced welders, so obviously there must be a shortage - then you find out that he only wants to pay $7.75/hour for them.  And no, not as a 'proving' wage for 2 weeks or whatever while you figure out whether they can actually weld.  A survey of other businesses offering higher wages weren't having that problem...

You mean like the company that may still be running an ad in the Dallas Morning News looking for experienced computer technicians at $0.50 over minimum wage?

Meanwhile the company I was working for was starting people who could barely send an email at $2.75 over minimum as a training wage for 3-6 weeks, then a $2/hour raise when they actually started working.

[charby]

Brilliant!  Let's put all of the engineering firms out of business because they can't afford to hire STEM grads for $150k/yr.  I'm sure that'll solve the unemployment problem right quick. 

How about a more realistic salary of $50-70k per year?

[Balog]

If we set the cost of living in Des Moines as 1, and say that the cost of living in say Seattle is 1.5 then we would expect the jobs in Seattle to pay roughly %50 more than those in Des Moines. Starting salary for a qualified programmer in Seattle is maybe $90-100k. Starting salary in Des Moines is $35k.


Seems a bit off to me.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

How about a more realistic salary of $50-70k per year?

  You think $50-70k per year is realistic for hiring an engineer or a programmer?  The applicants certainly don't. 

[charby]

  You think $50-70k per year is realistic for hiring an engineer or a programmer?  The applicants certainly don't. 

For an engineer?
Fresh out of school or less than 2 years experience, yes.

For a programmer?
Depends upon experience and skill set.

[KD5NRH]

You think $50-70k per year is realistic for hiring an engineer or a programmer?  The applicants certainly don't.

Depends a lot on the 2-year potential; I worked for one place that hired about 5% higher than others, but their top out was only 2 years out, and 10% lower than the average for the others at 2 years, plus the others didn't top out until 5-15 years.  They also restarted your time whenever your pay grade changed other than for a promotion, so moving to a different department started you out at zero seniority again.  (They didn't actually cut your pay, but you wouldn't get another raise until the new pay scale exceeded what you had been making.)

I don't know if they ever figured out why nobody stayed there past three years.

[Calumus]

Part of the problem with IT jobs is that the people hiring for them, don't seem to have any idea as to what they actually are. The thought process seems to be " We need someone to do computer stuff, let try to find somebody who can do everything we need done with computers. Everybody give us a list of things you need done..." So they'll place an ad looking for a UNIX guru who's proficient with active directory, SQL, Windows 2000-8, HTML, SEO, Photoshop, Server 2003-2012, Exchange, networking, break fix, phone systems, Cisco certified, Soldering, security system install and configuration. $28k/yr....  One of the worst ads I've seen was about 2 years ago. It was a financial firm in Manhattan, and this list pretty much mirrors their requirements. They were paying $18/hr. Its very likely that the union guys cleaning the toilets in their office were making a couple bucks an hour more then the guy they wanted to hire to support the backbone of their entire company.  There has to be some correlation between how important a job is to a company's wellbeing, and what they pay. After that you mix in rarity of skills, difficulty of the actual job, and the amount of training necessary to become proficient. After that you look at where they'd be on the company's pay scale. Does the kid delivering mail make a similar amount to the guy who maintains your server farm? One of the things that annoys me so much about the fast food workers lobbying for $15/hour is that that's exactly the wage that 90% of companies try to hire level 2 help desk reps at. If a construction company placed an ad trying to hire someone who was certified to weld underwater; but could also frame a house, wire it up, do all the plumbing and the masonry required, install the septic and dig the well. Then landscape it, pave the driveway, list it on the MLS, market it, and sell it, that would be about equivalent to the idiocy of half the iT ads I see.

[KD5NRH]

So they'll place an ad looking for a UNIX guru who's proficient with active directory, SQL, Windows 2000-8, HTML, SEO, Photoshop, Server 2003-2012, Exchange, networking, break fix, phone systems, Cisco certified, Soldering, security system install and configuration. $28k/yr....

Don't forget 5 years minimum experience in something that didn't exist three years ago.

One of the things that annoys me so much about the fast food workers lobbying for $15/hour is that that's exactly the wage that 90% of companies try to hire level 2 help desk reps at.

That's good money down here; last time I worked at a place that also had help desk, their shift directors were jealous of my $14/hr as the database guy. (Granted, I did it on the Scotty time estimating system, so I spent about 6 hours of each day in various forms of slacking off.)

[HankB]

. . . I've never worked in IT, but in engineering there's a very similar situation going on.  Job seekers say they can't get an employer to hire them at a fair wage.  Companies say they can't find qualified workers at a fair wage . . .

That's why many large companies are lobbying for more H1B visas - so they can hire more foreigners who'll work for a wage of fish heads and rice.

[charby]

Part of the problem with IT jobs is that the people hiring for them, don't seem to have any idea as to what they actually are. The thought process seems to be " We need someone to do computer stuff, let try to find somebody who can do everything we need done with computers. Everybody give us a list of things you need done..." So they'll place an ad looking for a UNIX guru who's proficient with active directory, SQL, Windows 2000-8, HTML, SEO, Photoshop, Server 2003-2012, Exchange, networking, break fix, phone systems, Cisco certified, Soldering, security system install and configuration. $28k/yr....  One of the worst ads I've seen was about 2 years ago. It was a financial firm in Manhattan, and this list pretty much mirrors their requirements. They were paying $18/hr. Its very likely that the union guys cleaning the toilets in their office were making a couple bucks an hour more then the guy they wanted to hire to support the backbone of their entire company.  There has to be some correlation between how important a job is to a company's wellbeing, and what they pay. After that you mix in rarity of skills, difficulty of the actual job, and the amount of training necessary to become proficient. After that you look at where they'd be on the company's pay scale. Does the kid delivering mail make a similar amount to the guy who maintains your server farm? One of the things that annoys me so much about the fast food workers lobbying for $15/hour is that that's exactly the wage that 90% of companies try to hire level 2 help desk reps at. If a construction company placed an ad trying to hire someone who was certified to weld underwater; but could also frame a house, wire it up, do all the plumbing and the masonry required, install the septic and dig the well. Then landscape it, pave the driveway, list it on the MLS, market it, and sell it, that would be about equivalent to the idiocy of half the iT ads I see.

So very true.

[lupinus]

Part of the problem with IT jobs is that the people hiring for them, don't seem to have any idea as to what they actually are. The thought process seems to be " We need someone to do computer stuff, let try to find somebody who can do everything we need done with computers. Everybody give us a list of things you need done..." So they'll place an ad looking for a UNIX guru who's proficient with active directory, SQL, Windows 2000-8, HTML, SEO, Photoshop, Server 2003-2012, Exchange, networking, break fix, phone systems, Cisco certified, Soldering, security system install and configuration. $28k/yr....  One of the worst ads I've seen was about 2 years ago. It was a financial firm in Manhattan, and this list pretty much mirrors their requirements. They were paying $18/hr. Its very likely that the union guys cleaning the toilets in their office were making a couple bucks an hour more then the guy they wanted to hire to support the backbone of their entire company.  There has to be some correlation between how important a job is to a company's wellbeing, and what they pay. After that you mix in rarity of skills, difficulty of the actual job, and the amount of training necessary to become proficient. After that you look at where they'd be on the company's pay scale. Does the kid delivering mail make a similar amount to the guy who maintains your server farm? One of the things that annoys me so much about the fast food workers lobbying for $15/hour is that that's exactly the wage that 90% of companies try to hire level 2 help desk reps at. If a construction company placed an ad trying to hire someone who was certified to weld underwater; but could also frame a house, wire it up, do all the plumbing and the masonry required, install the septic and dig the well. Then landscape it, pave the driveway, list it on the MLS, market it, and sell it, that would be about equivalent to the idiocy of half the iT ads I see.

Nail has been hit on the head.

There are simply unrealistic expectations on both sides, from the HR weenies/cheap owners setting wages low and wanting the world to folks fresh out of school with an inflated sense of self worth.

Then we get into places with one flat pay scale for everything they can get away with, who then wonder why everyone jumps at the easiest jobs and no one has any interest in jobs with more training, responsibility, and harder work that they have to hire new folks to fill. And loose as soon as a spot opens in a different easier area.

[just Warren]

Being able to hire seems like Business 101.

But in case it's beyond the skill-sets of modern management types aren't there agencies that can help management sort out their actual needs and then do what it would take to hire who they need?

[Jocassee]

Large corporations, and especially their HR departments, are a racket. Companies are run by bean counters who dictate to middle management what they can and can't do with their headcount, in our case so they can deliver the 1$ dividend to shareholders every year and make the books look happy.

I know this isn't news to any of you all but it's hitting me hard lately, enough to make me think of getting out of IT entirely.

[Stand_watie]

I have been very fortunate. 20 yrs ago last month I received a cold call referred through a resume swap asking me to interview for a company I'd never heard of, for a position that paid 20% more than I was making at the time, plus benefits of about an additional 30%. Ten years later I was called in by my boss (probably at the behest of his boss) who wanted to do me a favor (and I suspect his boss wanted to lower her overhead with a  new hire), and pointed to an intra-company job paying 50% more and promised a glowing recommendation.

I had a crappy day at work today guys, and was feeling down, Thanks for reminding me how good I have had it.

[zahc]

I typically get a glowing review and a 3-4% raise, then astonishment when I leave for greener pastures. They say the only way to get ahead is to change jobs. Makes no sense and I hate it, but I guess it's time to start looking again. My family is growing and the wife doesn't work. There is no room in the budget so hundred more a month is a big deal.

[charby]

Large corporations, and especially their HR departments, are a racket. Companies are run by bean counters who dictate to middle management what they can and can't do with their headcount, in our case so they can deliver the 1$ dividend to shareholders every year and make the books look happy.

I know this isn't news to any of you all but it's hitting me hard lately, enough to make me think of getting out of IT entirely.

Bean counters are one the many reasons why the middle class is going away. Eventually you will have to be college educated to be working poor.

[KD5NRH]

Large corporations, and especially their HR departments, are a racket. Companies are run by bean counters who dictate to middle management what they can and can't do with their headcount, in our case so they can deliver the 1$ dividend to shareholders every year and make the books look happy.

Let's not even get into what happens when accountants start playing engineer too.  Especially when they get flat out ridiculous.  For example, how many people are going to make a decision on a car over a $100 price difference, compared to how much better a car would be if they ditched $100 worth of their tiny per-unit savings?

[Calumus]

Just thought of this thread while reading a want ad demanding a high level of experience supporting Windows 7, 8, and 10.....

[charby]

Just thought of this thread while reading a want ad demanding a high level of experience supporting Windows 10.....

 

[Calumus]

Exactly. Too bad its at a company I wouldn't mind actually working for. Teamviewer's local office. Funny how you don't often see ads for HR jobs demanding 10 years experience, as well as a high level of knowledge in accounting, public relations, HTML, sales, and CNC machining. Seems like they're a little more realistic when it comes to what should be expected in their profession.

[brimic]

Let's not even get into what happens when accountants start playing engineer too.  Especially when they get flat out ridiculous.  For example, how many people are going to make a decision on a car over a $100 price difference, compared to how much better a car would be if they ditched $100 worth of their tiny per-unit savings?

The worst is when you sit across the table from someone in a meeting and realize that you are more than intelligent enough to learn how to their job, and everyone else's job at the table, but none of them even have the potential to do what you do.

I had an accountant tell me that the chemical reactions done in my department were taking too long.... "instead of stirring something at reflux for 10-12 hours, why not do it for one hour and run more reactions in that time?"
 

[KD5NRH]

Funny how you don't often see ads for HR jobs demanding 10 years experience, as well as a high level of knowledge in accounting, public relations, HTML, sales, and CNC machining.

You haven't read the Texas Workforce Commission's listings.  Apparently, the employer's interface to enter requirements defaults to "and" instead of "or," so you'll see, for example, a place doing a more-or-less general headcount increase that's looking for a minimum of two years experience each in manual mill operation, diesel engine repair, HR management, janitorial services, HVAC, electrical maintenance, OTR trucking and marketing.  If your job seeker profile doesn't match all of them, you can't apply, and then they wonder why they never seem to get anybody from the stuff they run on TWC.