Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: dogmush on March 02, 2024, 10:17:43 AM
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I've mentioned on here my overlanding hobby in the past, but I go on several long camping trips a year to get out of cities and into nature. I almost always have a firearm in the truck with me on these trips because 1. people suck, and 2. there are in fact aggressive animals in the woods. Since I'm based in FL, I stay in the eastern US, and most of the time I just throw an AR in the truck's rifle rack, and bring whatever carry pistol I'm favoring at the time, and some extra mags. I'm not trying to rig for a war, just be safe at interstates and in the middle of nowhere. No biggie.
But, a couple of my trips have, and some I have planned take me to states where that is not doable. New York, New Jersey, and Maryland being the most "go *expletive deleted*ck yourself" states, with Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Delaware close behind. None of them accept my permit to CCW, some of them don't even allow possession of a pistol, AR's are almost universally a no-go (at least mine are) So just in general not friendly or easy to navigate with the firearms I tend to have with me. In the past I've just crossed my fingers and left everything at home, and we're all still here so I survived (Although my dog did try to pick a fight with a moose in Maine that was concerning). But Hope is not a plan, and I'd like at least some way to have a weapon in the woods without risking multiple decades in prison from the state gestapo.
This semi narrow use case has led me to consider the famed "scout rifle" concept. Which is a reasonably handy and versatile firearm, and in my use case the "bolt action rifle without pistol grip" part neatly sidesteps almost all regulations that are hampering me. It seems as if I can even have the dreaded threaded barrel on a bolt action, and as long as I don't have any normal mags *with me* even the detachable mags seem OK. So Cool.
Due respect to Col. Cooper, I'm not a purist, and don't love the forward scope concept. I think it was a great idea in the '80s to facilitate two eyes open shooting and maintain situational awareness, but it's 45 years later and good LPVO's are a thing. Other than that, I think the concept is still pretty relevant, especially if you are, like I am, playing chicken with a A LOT of different laws and jurisdictions.
Which brings me to my request of the hive mind:
I'm looking for a .308 caliber, left-handed bolt action rifle that accepts detachable mags, has a solid scope mounting option over the receiver for an LPVO, 16"-18" threaded barrel (I'm going to hang a can on it at home), that is reasonably light and handy and costs like $600-$850 or so. Using AR-10 pattern mags instead of something proprietary is a huge plus.
Something kinda like this:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LrHxHAwRQSI/maxresdefault.jpg)
So what does the hive-mind have for suggestions of a starting rifle?
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I'm not sure about newer rifles, but I will throw an old one out there if you can find it: The Remington 788. I have it in .308 in an 18" barrel, and it is the proverbial Scout rifle (I didn't get the lefty, but they are out there). Lots of people look for these just for the action to use on other builds.
Otherwise, are you set on a Scout concept? For your use, if it were me, I might gravitate to a lever gun. Something like an 1894 in .44mag or .45LC. I have both of those too, and they are super lightweight and handy. I have only taken a 10rnd pistol in a stupid lockbox when I have made return trips to CA, but were I to choose any of my current rifles to take there for self-defense and the least worry about legal troubles, it would be one of the lever guns.
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I'm looking for a .308 caliber, left-handed bolt action rifle that accepts detachable mags, has a solid scope mounting option over the receiver for an LPVO, 16"-18" threaded barrel (I'm going to hang a can on it at home), that is reasonably light and handy and costs like $600-$850 or so. Using AR-10 pattern mags instead of something proprietary is a huge plus.
Something kinda like this:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LrHxHAwRQSI/maxresdefault.jpg)
So what does the hive-mind have for suggestions of a starting rifle?
That looks like a Mossberg MVP but I can't find any mention of a left hand model on their website.
There are a few others out there that may also take AR-10 mags but finding them left hand is tough
I too am left handed but I shoot right handed.
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Agree with Ben on the lever gun suggestion. Trapper-length in .44 mag would be a super travel combo. Rossi makes a Model 92 Trapper clone in stainless which streets for under $750. No direct experience with it so questions about reliability/durability.
https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/rifles/rossi-r92-stainless-lever-action-rifle-44-magnum-16in/p/1477937
Looking at Ruger's web site and discovered they have a southpaw-specific product page. Presume you've already seen it, but for benefit of others...
https://ruger.com/search/lefthanded/rifle
Brad
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Seconded on the lever gun.
A lot of the states you're going through and talking about, you technically cannot even have it loaded, or even unlocked. A lot of them require it to be in a locked container, separate from ammunition. I grok your desire for a magazine so you can go from 0 to X rounds instantly rather than loading one at a time...
I remember wanting a Ruger Scout when those came out. Those come with a long eye relief mount but it's no big deal to reconfigure it for a conventional eye relief scope. Left handed, 10rd detachable magazine, 18.7" barrel length already threaded. I've not put my hands on one yet though.
Personally, I wouldn't want a scope on a self defense overlander rifle that is going to be packed away unloaded most of the time. I'd rather have irons, hence my intrigue with the Ruger Scout.
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I'm not sure about newer rifles, but I will throw an old one out there if you can find it: The Remington 788. I have it in .308 in an 18" barrel, and it is the proverbial Scout rifle (I didn't get the lefty, but they are out there). Lots of people look for these just for the action to use on other builds.
Otherwise, are you set on a Scout concept? For your use, if it were me, I might gravitate to a lever gun. Something like an 1894 in .44mag or .45LC. I have both of those too, and they are super lightweight and handy. I have only taken a 10rnd pistol in a stupid lockbox when I have made return trips to CA, but were I to choose any of my current rifles to take there for self-defense and the least worry about legal troubles, it would be one of the lever guns.
Reasonably set, although I'm open to thinking. I have a Lever gun, and in a caliber big enough for large animals, capacity is limited, and recoil (at least in my .444) is brutal, back off caliber enough to get decent capacity, and you back out of the "can handle decently large, aggressive animals" Lever guns also lock you out of a lot of really nice pointy projectiles, and without a fair bit of work to train are a cumbersome bitch to reload. A guide gun in .45-70 Is powerful, light, and handy but has what? 4 rounds on board? That's why I was looking at rifle caliber, DBM, Bolt guns. The vast array of available loadings in .30hate is what has me thinking that's my go-to.
I guess if the Bond Arms levergun ever shows up that might be in the running.
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To follow up on Brad and AZ since we cross posted, I don't think a pistol cal lever gun is enough for bear (even the cute east coast black bear) or moose, both of which I've seen pretty close up on these trips.
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Seconded on the lever gun.
A lot of the states you're going through and talking about, you technically cannot even have it loaded, or even unlocked. A lot of them require it to be in a locked container, separate from ammunition. I grok your desire for a magazine so you can go from 0 to X rounds instantly rather than loading one at a time...
The gun rack in the truck locks, So I can lock it in the rack, and drop a the mag and be gestapo legal, but get gun, load mag, run bolt, go to work is reasonably quick. For animals, when I camp at night I can unlock rack and insert mag and be ready to go *very* fast, then just reverse that for driving the next day.
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Reasonably set, although I'm open to thinking. I have a Lever gun, and in a caliber big enough for large animals, capacity is limited, and recoil (at least in my .444) is brutal, back off caliber enough to get decent capacity, and you back out of the "can handle decently large, aggressive animals".
Big Horn Armory Model 89 in 500 Smith. A mere $3500 so might as well get two.
https://www.bighornarmory.com/product/model-89-carbine-18-500-sw/
Brad
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To follow up on Brad and AZ since we cross posted, I don't think a pistol cal lever gun is enough for bear (even the cute east coast black bear) or moose, both of which I've seen pretty close up on these trips.
Buffalo Bore has some Super Extra Nasty .44 Mag offerings. Whould that be enough to tip the scales?
Also, didn't Rossi make a Model 92 in .454 Casull for a while?
Brad
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I've mentioned on here my overlanding hobby in the past, but I go on several long camping trips a year to get out of cities and into nature. I almost always have a firearm in the truck with me on these trips because 1. people suck, and 2. there are in fact aggressive animals in the woods. Since I'm based in FL, I stay in the eastern US, and most of the time I just throw an AR in the truck's rifle rack, and bring whatever carry pistol I'm favoring at the time, and some extra mags. I'm not trying to rig for a war, just be safe at interstates and in the middle of nowhere. No biggie.
But, a couple of my trips have, and some I have planned take me to states where that is not doable. New York, New Jersey, and Maryland being the most "go *expletive deleted*ck yourself" states, with Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Delaware close behind. None of them accept my permit to CCW, some of them don't even allow possession of a pistol, AR's are almost universally a no-go (at least mine are) So just in general not friendly or easy to navigate with the firearms I tend to have with me. In the past I've just crossed my fingers and left everything at home, and we're all still here so I survived (Although my dog did try to pick a fight with a moose in Maine that was concerning). But Hope is not a plan, and I'd like at least some way to have a weapon in the woods without risking multiple decades in prison from the state gestapo.
This semi narrow use case has led me to consider the famed "scout rifle" concept. Which is a reasonably handy and versatile firearm, and in my use case the "bolt action rifle without pistol grip" part neatly sidesteps almost all regulations that are hampering me. It seems as if I can even have the dreaded threaded barrel on a bolt action, and as long as I don't have any normal mags *with me* even the detachable mags seem OK. So Cool.
Due respect to Col. Cooper, I'm not a purist, and don't love the forward scope concept. I think it was a great idea in the '80s to facilitate two eyes open shooting and maintain situational awareness, but it's 45 years later and good LPVO's are a thing. Other than that, I think the concept is still pretty relevant, especially if you are, like I am, playing chicken with a A LOT of different laws and jurisdictions.
Which brings me to my request of the hive mind:
I'm looking for a .308 caliber, left-handed bolt action rifle that accepts detachable mags, has a solid scope mounting option over the receiver for an LPVO, 16"-18" threaded barrel (I'm going to hang a can on it at home), that is reasonably light and handy and costs like $600-$850 or so. Using AR-10 pattern mags instead of something proprietary is a huge plus.
Something kinda like this:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LrHxHAwRQSI/maxresdefault.jpg)
So what does the hive-mind have for suggestions of a starting rifle?
Slight thread veer -- Ill-i-noise has "done gone stupid" in regard to modern rifles. I've been contemplating getting a lever action .357 (or, I guess, .44. Got plenty of brass for it) as an "Illinois friendly" PCC solution, because who knows how long it will take SCOTUS to do the right thing. Given my budget, almost certainly a Rossi.
---edit to add---
Wow, ton of replies to the thread, since I started composing this reply.
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To follow up on Brad and AZ since we cross posted, I don't think a pistol cal lever gun is enough for bear (even the cute east coast black bear) or moose, both of which I've seen pretty close up on these trips.
To each their own, but I'm using a 10mm as my fishing pistol in predator-rich Idaho. I'm thinking a .44mag rifle with 340gr Buffalo Bore will be a might more potent. Also, while I'm not saying don't use a gun (obviously), I've scared away lots of black bears with shouting and rocks. Moose would be a much greater concern to me. Or sneaky mountain lions.
Also, I guess if we're talking about the ammo/speed limits of levers and bolt guns, we might as well throw shotguns into the mix.
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I've used .454, .44 and 10mm as predator protection as well, but the understanding is I'm choosing to carry a pistol for ease of carry, and attempting to get the best of the underpowered rounds available to me. If I have to carry a long gun anyway, why would I bring a pistol cartridge even a powerful one?
I also agree, moose and other large aggressive herbivores are my prime animal concern. I've seen lots of bear in my life and only had to shoot at a couple, and only shot one. I saw a mom and two cubs in my campsite in Ocala National Forrest a couple years ago and felt a little undergunned with only the 9mm I had at that time, but she collected her kids and left in a hurry.
I hate shotguns. Everything about running and shooting a shotgun pisses me off. I've been trying to practice with mine so I can do some 3-gun matches, but I *expletive deleted*ing hate them.
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A purpose specific lever action travel rifle?
Browning BLR in .308.
Fudd friendly, detachable magazines, pointy projectiles, left hand compatibility. I'm sure you could add optics, although the defensive situations you describe don't really require glass. Yeah I know. But they don't.
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Hey Dogmush - What do you think about using a shotgun instead?
=D =D =D
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Hey Dogmush - What do you think about using a shotgun instead?
=D =D =D
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/53/5f/c7/535fc7e7679d73eb57e895d698da2732.gif)
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^^^
SEE!!! All that blast and recoil, and it can't even kill one little black duck!
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except for the price being more than I was looking to spend, this might be a strong contender: https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=58172
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOF-jf5Bt2R9LoZE6IDZ7wx_u7k9H_wcBEdQ&usqp=CAU)
Or I could go back to RH bolts and look at that Mossberg.
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Isn’t there a ruger LH scout or ranch rifle with detach mag? I think you even get the threaded barrel.
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^^^
Yeah, it's another $100 over the Savage to buy, then I'd need a $100 rail to run the scope I want.
What I really need is to find a used one.
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I may have to build this to make budget...
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If you build it, they will come.
Whoever THEY are….
Howa barreled actions are really good and sometimes cheap. If I were in a mood to build I might start there.
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I'd have to give up on left handed action for the Howa. But otherwise, yeah that'd be a good start.
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except for the price being more than I was looking to spend, this might be a strong contender: https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=58172
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOF-jf5Bt2R9LoZE6IDZ7wx_u7k9H_wcBEdQ&usqp=CAU)
Or I could go back to RH bolts and look at that Mossberg.
Ooh, I like that! Get that! Be my guinea pig and tell me all about it. :-)
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except for the price being more than I was looking to spend, this might be a strong contender: https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=58172
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOF-jf5Bt2R9LoZE6IDZ7wx_u7k9H_wcBEdQ&usqp=CAU)
Or I could go back to RH bolts and look at that Mossberg.
If somebody had said 30 years that the problem with buying a Savage rifle would be the price, well, they wouldn't say that. Times change I guess.
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I'll be a "third" on the lever gun. This way, you can have rifle and handgun that use the same ammo, be it .357 or .44.
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At the moment I'm leaning heavily towards buying a Savage Axis II and building what I want. I think I can get the rifle I'm imagining for $650-$700 that way and won't have to give up any of the "wants" I'd have to compromise on with a commercial built "Scout Rifle" at over $1k. Savage Magazine compatibility is the only bummer there, but I'm still looking into that.
I'll be a "third" on the lever gun. This way, you can have rifle and handgun that use the same ammo, be it .357 or .44.
I don't practice with any of my wheel guns enough for that to be even a little useful in this application, and I can't have a pistol in the truck anyways.
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Still thinking on this project.
I swung by the LGS at lunch today and put my grubby paws on a couple rifles. (All they had were right handed bolts)
I liked the Savage 110 Magpul Hunter (Pretty much what I posted on page 1, but 18" barrel and no iron sites) but it was pretty heavy. 8lbs unloaded, without an optic. It's also trending a little into "Tactical" precision territory. They wanted like $850 for one.
I looked at a Ruger American Predator, which was light, but felt noticeably cheaper, both in the action and in the stock. it was only $579, but I'd have to cut and thread the barrel to get the length where I want it. Any more mods at all really eat into the price savings over a Savage 110. Also the Ruger's mag catch is a chincy plastic POS in an insert screwed into the stock, while by virtue of it's Magpul Stock the Savage's mag catch and well is much nicer.
The Axis II action felt like crap compared to the Ruger American or the 110. I think that I'd end up hating having gone that cheap on the rifle before too long.
So I probably need to increase my budget if I want any kind of half ass nice bolt action.
Side Note: The store had a rack of Christenson Arm bolt guns there that were super nice. Not what I want to pay for what is essentially a whim gun, but super nice firearms.
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Why not just refuse to vacation behind the lines, and go spend your money in a free state?
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I don’t know what the prices or availability is these days but a Tikka would get you a detach mag and the best out of the box action and trigger available. T3 lightweight with a lefty bolt might be a consideration.
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I don’t know what the prices or availability is these days but a Tikka would get you a detach mag and the best out of the box action and trigger available. T3 lightweight with a lefty bolt might be a consideration.
Be sitting down when you price mags. Ask me how I know :'(
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Why not just refuse to vacation behind the lines, and go spend your money in a free state?
Aren't you still in Washington?
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Why not just refuse to vacation behind the lines, and go spend your money in a free state?
1. sometimes I'm just going through, and the way milage works out need to camp there. Going around adds time and milage I can't fit in every trip.
2. Wife gets a vote where we go, and she's less libertarian than I.
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Aren't you still in Washington?
Unfortunately. For the first 30 years it was great.
I am not convinced that enough i's can be dotted and t's crossed to be OK in some of the states dogmush mentioned, even if the exact letter of the law is followed. Too many horror stories of people getting caught in the system. The rule of law is rapidly disappearing, usually by the draconian enforcement against the political "others" and outright ignoring the most grievous offenses by the politically protected.
No longer a question of "what", but of "who".