Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Regolith on August 09, 2010, 10:58:49 PM
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703428604575419580947722558.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsTop#articleTabs%3Darticle
Basically, five human rights organizations called out WikiLeaks for failing to redact names of Afghans who had cooperated with the United States. WikiLeak's response was basically, they didn't have the man power (I guess sitting on the docs until all the names COULD be redacted wasn't an option ;/ ) and that the other organizations could have helped out. One of the organizations offers to meet with WikiLeaks in order to discuss doing exactly that, and WikiLeak's founder Julian Assange basically says "I'm too busy, #$*! off."
Meanwhile, the Taliban has publically announced that it will be combing the documents in order to punish people who helped the US.
Apparently, Assange is too damn busy to make sure people don't die because of his actions.
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I, for one, am shocked that Wikileaks either has no concern for human lives, or doesn't understand that real-world problems come with real-world consequences.
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This is leagues beyond the pale. Conscience is well and truly dead.
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If there are victims from this, Assange had better hope the victims' families don't find him
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If there are victims from this, Assange had better hope the victims' families don't find him
yea a couple of afghans i worked with held a grudge better than the irish. one was a very very scary man
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What country is Wikileaks based in?
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What country is Wikileaks based in?
Assange, the founder, is Australian.
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Why no wrath aimed at whoever submitted the information to wikileaks? Just because they are faceless? Why should you not expect them to redact and filter information?
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Why no wrath aimed at whoever submitted the information to wikileaks? Just because they are faceless? Why should you not expect them to redact and filter information?
Not faceless at all, and as a .mil member I hope they hang the traitor. Although that's too much to hope for these days.
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Why no wrath aimed at whoever submitted the information to wikileaks? Just because they are faceless? Why should you not expect them to redact and filter information?
Don't worry, I'm quite sure most of us want to see him hanged. (I know I do.) Edit: I see dogmush beat me to that.
The difference is we may have him in custody already. Assange is still free to destroy innocent lives (so long as those lives do anything to help the United States.)
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This is one of those moments where I empathize with all the near-suicidal idiots who wished Avatar's Pandora was real. In my fantasy, our invincible black ops types make WikiLeaks papers and servers go poof, then treat Assange to a life-changing blanket party before he's tried, convicted and executed by the World Court.
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Hotlinked image redacted.
Not faceless at all, and as a .mil member I hope they hang the traitor. Although that's too much to hope for these days.
I don't think someone liked your hotlink.
Both Assange and the leaker are scum.
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Why no wrath aimed at whoever submitted the information to wikileaks? Just because they are faceless? Why should you not expect them to redact and filter information?
Because they're already being dealt with.
What country is Wikileaks based in?
"Most of them".
Decentralization is a beautiful thing. To take out wikileaks, we'd need to hit a lot of countries. And they'd be back up and running within days from off-site backups.
This is one of those moments where I empathize with all the near-suicidal idiots who wished Avatar's Pandora was real. In my fantasy, our invincible black ops types make WikiLeaks papers and servers go poof, then treat Assange to a life-changing blanket party before he's tried, convicted and executed by the World Court.
Yea, unfortunately, they're not stupid. Their servers are decentralized to the point where bombing is impractical. They also back up their files to offsite locations, which means you can roll out more servers in a few hours.
Also, the US now has a vested interest in keeping Mr. Assange alive. He thought he was being clever and published an encrypted file allegedly containing a very large number of highly classified and dangerous documents. "Substantial harm" would be an understatement. The theory is that if he dies, the key gets released. Everyone already has the files, just no one (hopefully) can read them yet.
Problem is, plenty of countries want to harm the US and would happily take out Mr. Assange to do so. Other problem is, if he releases the documents, he is a dead man walking.
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How long would it take for the CIA or NSA to break the file and see whats inside? Might just be a collection of recipes for chicken soup for all we know.
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How long would it take for the CIA or NSA to break the file and see whats inside? Might just be a collection of recipes for chicken soup for all we know.
That's not how game theory works. I have few doubts they have already been provided with the key for that specific reason.
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Meh, if the pallid provocateur had any juicy docs, he would have published them.
Second, since we have the original leaker, we can determine the most damaging docs he released. Likely, they already have been leaked.
Third, the docs are likely operational in nature and get less & less sensitive over time. No, classification level doesn't fall, but any real damage is attenuated.
I say he is the perfect target for a tragic kangaroo accident and include a goodly number of his associates. Keep it up for a while (successors dying before their time) and while the already-released docs are out for good, Wikileaks will stick to what it's best at: re-publishing reports from the Congressional Research Service it swiped form other web sites.
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Meh, if the pallid provocateur had any juicy docs, he would have published them.
Second, since we have the original leaker, we can determine the most damaging docs he released. Likely, they already have been leaked.
Third, the docs are likely operational in nature and get less & less sensitive over time. No, classification level doesn't fall, but any real damage is attenuated.
I say he is the perfect target for a tragic kangaroo accident and include a goodly number of his associates. Keep it up for a while (successors dying before their time) and while the already-released docs are out for good, Wikileaks will stick to what it's best at: re-publishing reports from the Congressional Research Service it swiped form other web sites.
Roughly 90k documents have been released. It has been loosely confirmed he has 15k that are being withheld. Allegedly on grounds that their release would actively endanger lives. Smart money says moreso on blackmail to stay alive and inhibit exactly what you spoke of. By the US anyways. Foreign parties are actively conspiring to do exactly as you state, because the US would be blamed for it as much as the fallout from leaking the more sensitive documents.
There are also a quarter of a million diplomatic cables floating around. No one is sure what the case is there.
Assuming this does not touch off another two wars (medium severity scenerio), it will be entertaining to read about in another 10 years or so. I'm curious how accurate the history will be. Worst severity case would be pretty bad. But there's only a 2% chance of that, give or take.
Even under the most optimistic damage assessments, most of the analysts believe the fallout from this will lead to a severe compartmentalization of information. As everyone recalls, that was one of the circumstances that allowed 9/11 as well as other incidents to occur. Intel weenies have to share information to prevent attacks. But the more they share, the more likely these kinds of incidents will occur. It's basically the intel yo-yo effect. It sharply jerks back and forth because of incidents. And each time, intel weenies must fall on their sword because they were doing the right thing.
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Also, the US now has a vested interest in keeping Mr. Assange alive. He thought he was being clever and published an encrypted file allegedly containing a very large number of highly classified and dangerous documents. "Substantial harm" would be an understatement. The theory is that if he dies, the key gets released. Everyone already has the files, just no one (hopefully) can read them yet.
Problem is, plenty of countries want to harm the US and would happily take out Mr. Assange to do so. Other problem is, if he releases the documents, he is a dead man walking.
Not necessarily. Suppose it's layered. The file has some damaging stuff, along with another encrypted file with less massive but even more damaging material. He or his associates can release keys for outer layers as necessary to "punish" anyone who tries to silence him, without giving up all their leverage.
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Not faceless at all, and as a .mil member I hope they hang the traitor. Although that's too much to hope for these days.
I believe they have a suspect awaiting court martial.
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That's not how game theory works. I have few doubts they have already been provided with the key for that specific reason.
You give JA too much credit. He doesn't seem that bright or devious.
For instance, he did not foresee the release of civilian Afghan names and did not foresee that similarly-minded organizations would take him to task for it. He's floundering about on those issues.
Also, what JA did was likely the absolutely stupidest thing he could possibly do, if he wants to die in bed at age 92. Maybe he keeps the USA from offing him. But, that likelihood was always quite remote even if we had a POTUS with any backbone. OTOH, JA has provided a wonderful incentive for America's enemies to give him a dirt nap ASAP.
Doesn't matter if the encrypted data is bogus or real. Still sand-poundingly stupid to provide some Real Bad Dudes with incentive to kill you.
Don't make the mistake of assuming JA is as devious as you are. So there are redundant copies of Wikileaks all over the world. Whoopty-freaking do. I can say the same for Fedora Linux.
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Problem is, plenty of countries want to harm the US and would happily take out Mr. Assange to do so. Other problem is, if he releases the documents, he is a dead man walking.
Doesn't matter if the encrypted data is bogus or real. Still sand-poundingly stupid to provide some Real Bad Dudes with incentive to kill you.
A terrorist organization would have to weigh the immediate damage they could cause the U.S. by killing Assange and (maybe) getting all the insurance data released, against the continuing damage Assange could cause to the U.S. by remaining alive.
Out of curiosity... does this make me a terrorist?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.imageshack.us%2Fimg710%2F2387%2Fwikileaksinsurance.png&hash=fb5e49595d951a2033a79abac152a0f2a68c4916) (http://a.imageshack.us/img710/2387/wikileaksinsurance.png)
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Wikileaks is apparently hosted by PRQ, based in Stockholm. In case you were wondering, those are the same guys who are also behind The Pirate Bay...
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A terrorist organization would have to weigh the immediate damage they could cause the U.S. by killing Assange and (maybe) getting all the insurance data released, against the continuing damage Assange could cause to the U.S. by remaining alive.
Weight what? According to Wikileaks, there are numerous people and servers to continue their "crusade."
Kill one, get the current "security deposit" data and wait for the next one to release new "security deposit" data. Kill him. Repeat.
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A terrorist organization would have to weigh the immediate damage they could cause the U.S. by killing Assange and (maybe) getting all the insurance data released, against the continuing damage Assange could cause to the U.S. by remaining alive.
Out of curiosity... does this make me a terrorist?
http://a.imageshack.us/img710/2387/wikileaksinsurance.png
Lots of terrorists and rogue nations. Only one has to make the calculation that they want what's behind Door #2 for JA to be worm food. Like I wrote, JA ain't that bright(1) and he is toying with some dangerous folk.
Also, if they are looking for really damaging stuff, they were likely disappointed with what has been dumped so far and want the "real" goodies.
tyme, I would be circumspect about downloading classified material. I doubt it makes you a terrorist, but it might make you a fool.
(1) If JA were smart(er), he would have informed us.gov quietly and privately that he had more damaging material, perhaps embedded in the more innocuous materials already downloaded. Trumpeting to the world, "I have valuable information that can damage America that will be revealed if I die" is the work of an idjit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubw5N8iVDHI
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You give JA too much credit. He doesn't seem that bright or devious.
For instance, he did not foresee the release of civilian Afghan names and did not foresee that similarly-minded organizations would take him to task for it. He's floundering about on those issues.
Also, what JA did was likely the absolutely stupidest thing he could possibly do, if he wants to die in bed at age 92. Maybe he keeps the USA from offing him. But, that likelihood was always quite remote even if we had a POTUS with any backbone. OTOH, JA has provided a wonderful incentive for America's enemies to give him a dirt nap ASAP.
Doesn't matter if the encrypted data is bogus or real. Still sand-poundingly stupid to provide some Real Bad Dudes with incentive to kill you.
Don't make the mistake of assuming JA is as devious as you are. So there are redundant copies of Wikileaks all over the world. Whoopty-freaking do. I can say the same for Fedora Linux.
Just for the record, I completely 100% agree with you. But our government's position is what I posted above. I should have been a bit more specific, my apologies.
Lots of terrorists and rogue nations. Only one has to make the calculation that they want what's behind Door #2 for JA to be worm food. Like I wrote, JA ain't that bright(1) and he is toying with some dangerous folk.
Also, if they are looking for really damaging stuff, they were likely disappointed with what has been dumped so far and want the "real" goodies.
tyme, I would be circumspect about downloading classified material. I doubt it makes you a terrorist, but it might make you a fool.
Ayep. That's why everyone in every intel agency facepalmed at his insurance gambit. He more or less put a bullseye on his back until the data is released or is completely nonrelevant (which is uh... while admittedly on a decreasing scale, not likely to be his natural lifespan). Someone is going to kill him in a way that looks like the US could have done it. Which won't be bloody hard. "No one" would believe that the US government did not do it, even if it was fairly obvious it wasn't us.
And I don't believe tyme would be in the legal wrong to download information that's in the public domain. US government would be better legally to claim copyright infringement than classified data, judging by previous court cases. :facepalm:
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Why no wrath aimed at whoever submitted the information to wikileaks? Just because they are faceless?
Bradley Manning, aka BradAss87, has been arrested.
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Televised trial. And if guilty, firing squad, televised. Hell, steel an idea from Carlin,'put it on pay per view. Take the proceeds to help pay the deficit down.
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My brain just exploded.
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/08/05/HP/A/36637/Defense+Department+Press+Briefing.aspx
So... wikileaks without authorization makes available on the web classified files. A pentagon PR flunkie demands that wikileaks, and wikileaks only, return those documents, and keeps emphasizing that they must be returned prior to being deleted?
He goes on to suggest that even though a lot of major news organizations have undoubtedly copied and started reviewing those files, (at about 11:00) "I believe they [the NYT] were allowed to review those documents; I do not believe they are currently in possession of those documents."
Every thing that pentagon spokesman says leads me to believe he's never used, much less seen, a computer. Why do they have a Luddite handling PR for what is clearly a technological/digital issue/crime?
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My brain just exploded.
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/08/05/HP/A/36637/Defense+Department+Press+Briefing.aspx
So... wikileaks without authorization makes available on the web classified files. A pentagon PR flunkie demands that wikileaks, and wikileaks only, return those documents, and keeps emphasizing that they must be returned prior to being deleted?
Yeah, he should have asked for everyone in possession of those docs to fax them back. Then we'd be sure we'd gotten them all.
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My brain just exploded.
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/08/05/HP/A/36637/Defense+Department+Press+Briefing.aspx
So... wikileaks without authorization makes available on the web classified files. A pentagon PR flunkie demands that wikileaks, and wikileaks only, return those documents, and keeps emphasizing that they must be returned prior to being deleted?
He goes on to suggest that even though a lot of major news organizations have undoubtedly copied and started reviewing those files, (at about 11:00) "I believe they [the NYT] were allowed to review those documents; I do not believe they are currently in possession of those documents."
Every thing that pentagon spokesman says leads me to believe he's never used, much less seen, a computer. Why do they have a Luddite handling PR for what is clearly a technological/digital issue/crime?
I'm not sure, but I think the 15,000 unreleased documents in question may be what he is talking about
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If that were the case, why did he not provide a pgp or s/mime key for wikileaks to use? "Get the key from foobar.mil/blah and here's the key's hash: ..."
These are unreleased, classified documents after all. Isn't the military's claim that the documents need to be kept secret belied by their request for the documents to be "returned" without any specific security precautions?
I think from context that he was referring to the entire wikileaks classified military document collection, but that's merely my impression.
I'm tempted to track down his contact info and send him information on how to use web browsers to download (right-click save-as!), and maybe curl and wget instructions just to be safe.
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My brain just exploded.
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/08/05/HP/A/36637/Defense+Department+Press+Briefing.aspx
So... wikileaks without authorization makes available on the web classified files. A pentagon PR flunkie demands that wikileaks, and wikileaks only, return those documents, and keeps emphasizing that they must be returned prior to being deleted?
He goes on to suggest that even though a lot of major news organizations have undoubtedly copied and started reviewing those files, (at about 11:00) "I believe they [the NYT] were allowed to review those documents; I do not believe they are currently in possession of those documents."
Every thing that pentagon spokesman says leads me to believe he's never used, much less seen, a computer. Why do they have a Luddite handling PR for what is clearly a technological/digital issue/crime?
The last place I worked had a policy sorta like that. If you had any proprietary or sensitive data that belonged to them, they expected you to "return" it (their word, not mine). By "return", they meant "make a copy for us, hand it over, then delete all other copies".
It actually makes a bit of sense. By giving them a copy, you're telling/showing them exactly what you had in your possession. They always said it was for the benefit of the security folks, so that they know what slipped past their guard and was loose in the wild. I always suspected it was so that they'd have ammunition to use against you in any potential NDA litigation.
And that stuff wasn't even classified. Classified data handling takes bureaucratic OCD to a whole nother level.
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It doesn't help that on nearly every major TV show "uploading" data off a computer magically makes it gone off the computer it was on originally. Some days I wonder if TV is intentionally working to make us stupider.
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Okay I can accept that. Maybe he's not a Luddite. Maybe he is dissembling.
It was really quite clever of him to couch it in terms of physical property. "blah blah does not belong to [wikileaks]; [wikileaks] return it all to us, and delete all copies". One or two reporters were confused like I was, but it makes sense. Of course they're not concerned about copies that NYT or other news organizations may already have. They want a copy as close as possible to the format in which wikileaks received it. They want to use that to help their internal investigation and maybe to aide in future prosecution of Assange or other wikileaks-related persons.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0S9XgGg16cmsDSJQVHFzQ97LbjA
They're gonna release the other 15k.
They are allegedly going to redact parts that would get folks killed.
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Tempest in a teapot? DoD review concludes that no sensitive intel sources or methods were disclosed by Wikileaks' initial disclosure last summer.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/16/wikileaks.assessment/index.html?hpt=T2
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They released the rest.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11612731
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A couple of interesting confirmations in teh leaked data.
Yes, there were WMDs in Iraq:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/10/wikileaks_proves_wmd_found_in.html
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/us_did_find_iraq_wmd_AYiLgNbw7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/10/wikileaks-show-wmd-hunt-continued-in-iraq-with-surprising-results/
The Soros-funded Lancet (Brit med journal) study of civvie casualties was inflated by 600%:
http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2010/10/wages-of-wikileaks-understanding-iraq.html
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/wikileaks_nails_the_wild_lancet_scare/
Old news to some, but inconvenient fro many Bush-bashers.
I'd still like to see the petulant Assange go after some real bad guys, some time. He's like the cop who pulls over my white, 5'-nuthin, 100lbs-maybe wife while driving in the 'hood. There is a panoply of crime & criminals in every direction, but my wife's out of date inspection sticker is a whole lot safer for the cop to go after.
I'm not the only one with that thought:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/online/secret-war-at-the-heart-of-wikileaks-2115637.html
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I'd still like to see the petulant Assange go after some real bad guys, some time.
Pull that crap against Russia and you die of radiation poisoning.
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There's a very simple, economical reason about why people whine harder about minor violations of civil rights - or things they perceive as violations, even if they aren't - in decent countries, and ignore places like China and DPRK.
If someone decided that the President of the United States wearing a tie - rather than a bowtie - to his appearances was a violation of human rights, and they whined hard enough about it, it's quite possible Obama would give in and switch to a bowtie. If they protest about China, China is just going to shrug and ignore them.
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If they protest about China, China is just going to shrug and ignore them.
Or worse.