Shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

http://cbs4denver.com/crime/new.life.church.2.607121.html

t Least 4 Shot Outside New Life Church
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (CBS4) ― At least four people were shot outside New Life Church on Sunday, but it was not immediately clear if any of them died, El Paso County Sheriff's Lt. Lari Sevene said.

It was not immediately known if the shootings were connected with shootings earlier Sunday at a missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvada some 65 miles to the north. Two people died in the Arvada incident.

Lance Coles, a pastor at New Life Church, told The Associated Press he received a report that a man was shooting at people in the church parking lot and that the gunman may have entered the church.

New Life was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was fired last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three year cash-for-sex relationship.

Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, admitted to undisclosed "sexual immorality."

The church is one of Colorado's largest with about 10,000 members.

http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/12292776.html

11 News has reports of a shooting at New Life Church. Early reports are that there is a gunman inside and that there are multiple victims.

The Associated Press is reporting that four people have been shot. This is the second such shooting in Colorado today. Early this morning a lone gunman shot four people in an Arvada missionary training center, two of those victims have died.

Stay with 11 News, we have a crew on the scene and we'll have updates as soon as they come in.

I can only hope that someone at new life is carrying today. 

[AmbulanceDriver]

And that, my friends, is why I carry at church.....

[CAnnoneer]

One more incident that should NOT be making national news.

[Tallpine]

Might be the same shooter.  AFAIK they haven't caught him yet.

[Manedwolf]

And that, my friends, is why I carry at church.....

I remember talking to an elderly Jewish man who mentioned that he always carried in temple.

He had a number tattoo on his left arm, too. So I think he understood what it was like to feel helpless, and never wanted to again.

[gunsmith]

according to a thr member, the bad guy was shot by ccw'ers of course the press would never say that.

[Manedwolf]

Volunteer security guard, according to nooz sites.

[Marnoot]

One more incident that should NOT be making national news.

This is one that definitely shouldn't be making national news:

Woman Accused of Bringing Loaded Handgun into DisneyWorld:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316267,00.html

[280plus]

Stringent, zero-tolerance, security measures have been in place at all Central Florida theme parks since September 11, 2001.

Ahhh, another bunch of nicely cleansed soft targets. How convenient for the bad guys.

[Perd Hapley]

One more incident that should NOT be making national news.

Just to clarify, you don't think mass shootings should be on national news?  Or is there something about this particular incident that makes it less-than-nationally-newsworthy?

[Manedwolf]

Actually, Disney World is one of the only places I feel safe not carrying, in the parks themselves. Not in the shopping area outside them.

The parks, their security is scary good. If someone even gets loud, very large men with earpieces just appear out of nowhere and escort them through a nearby door.

[CAnnoneer]

Just to clarify, you don't think mass shootings should be on national news?  Or is there something about this particular incident that makes it less-than-nationally-newsworthy?

I don't believe mass shootings are national news. They are local tragedy at best. Crap happens all the time, everywhere. But the media are so thirsty for feeding our dark sides that they love picking up stories like that. On top, such reporting generates unhealthy and unfair levels of worry among the public about firearms, something gungrabbers LOVE to exploit.

Somehow the same media do not pick up stories where lawful gunowners have saved themselves or others exactly because they ARE armed. It pisses me off to no end.

fistful, it is possible, albeit unlikely, that you may think my being agnostic makes me devalue the lives of believers. Let me assure you that is emphatically not so.

[Zsa-Zsa]

fistful, it is possible, albeit unlikely, that you may think my being agnostic makes me devalue the lives of believers. Let me assure you that is emphatically not so.

     I'm not "fistful", but I'd like to make an answer to this statement... as a "Believer" with a capital "B" I think that G-d's love for non-believers is exactly the same as G-ds love for believers - in that we are all his children...

      I believe G-d literally, spiritually and physically, chose to torture himself to death and to suffer three days in hell (in the person of Christ) for I and for you...

     You'll remember this on your deathbed. ...you may not believe in g-d, but g-d believes in you. 

Regards, Andrew
     

[CAnnoneer]

Zsa,

Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.

[Jamisjockey]

Zsa,

Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.

I'm an athiest and I don't dispute the existance of Jesus.

Christians are not followers of the old testament.  They may teach out of it, but so do Mormons
 

[280plus]

The parks, their security is scary good. If someone even gets loud, very large men with earpieces just appear out of nowhere and escort them through a nearby door.

I wonder if they are armed?

[Perd Hapley]

Christians are not followers of the old testament.

Then who is?  Between the Jews, Muslims, Christians, Mormons, Bahai (I think) and dozens of other groups, it's amazing how many people want to claim the Old Testament.  Yet it "leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus."*  Isn't that odd? 


*CAnnoneer 

[Manedwolf]

BTW, not only are the nooz places all dancing about the fact that it's Haggard's ministry, (they keep mentioning the OMG SEX in every article), but the've also used the term "automatic rifle" repeatedly.

That's to the point that it can't be a mistake anymore, I think.

[Zsa-Zsa]

Zsa,

Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.

     I don't at all deny your statement about your belief system. I believe that you believe what you do...and I cannot change it. I believe that there is nothing wrong with an "agnostic" believing the person of "Jesus Christ" existed, and that believing that takes nothing away from their thought system. I fully accept that you believe Jesus Christ was just a good human being. I wasn't actually "challenging" you to a debate of our beliefs...more, I was making a simple statement of my own belief. That Jesus believes in you. He will reach out to you before your death.

regards, Andrew

[Zsa-Zsa]

I'm an athiest...

    Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith. A "pure" agnostic" (not that very many of them exist) certainly has the intellectual high ground...

Christians are not followers of the old testament.  They may teach out of it, but so do Mormons
 

No, they aren't, and they shouldn't do so. Christians should look at the old testament as the revealed Word of G-d, but not as an instruction manual for Christians. Each and every one of the books of the "Old Testament" were specifically given by G-d to the children of Israel, each of them at a specific time and for a specific location. Christians should look to the New Testament for a recounting of what they shouldn't do, and more importantly what they should do.. as rabbi "Yeshua ben joseph" (I know you've heard that name somewhere, said to us "Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Doing these two things is the only requirement to being a good Christian.

[Jamisjockey]

I'm an athiest...

    Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith. A "pure" agnostic" (not that very many of them exist) certainly has the intellectual high ground...

Christians are not followers of the old testament.  They may teach out of it, but so do Mormons
 

No, they aren't, and they shouldn't do so. Christians should look at the old testament as the revealed Word of G-d, but not as an instruction manual for Christians. Each and every one of the books of the "Old Testament" were specifically given by G-d to the children of Israel, each of them at a specific time and for a specific location. Christians should look to the New Testament for a recounting of what they shouldn't do, and more importantly what they should do.. as rabbi "Yeshua ben joseph" (I know you've heard that name somewhere, said to us "Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Doing these two things is the only requirement to being a good Christian.

Actually, just for clarification, I'm an athiest who believes that there are other possibilities besides my belief that there isn't a god.  Of course because of the laws of the universe, I believe the possibilites are so infininte they cannot be counted. 
I find it easier to say I'm athiest than to say agnostic.  If you say athiest, all the zealots just think you're the devil.  Tell 'em you're agnostic, and they immediately begin trying to convert you 

And the rest of your statement was well said. 

[Perd Hapley]

I'm an athiest...

    Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith. A "pure" agnostic" (not that very many of them exist) certainly has the intellectual high ground...

Stand_waitie, could you clarify?  If they have the intellectual high ground, why aren't you one of them? 

[mike]

DisneyWorld: It's been several years, but the last time I went there you could carry as long as you had a license. I hate to hear that it has changed.

[CAnnoneer]

*** thread drift detected ***

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html
Guard was a female volunteer.

A New Life parishioner acting as a security guard shot and killed a gunman who entered the church Sunday afternoon after he had gotten no more than 50 feet inside the building, Boyd said.

Boyd said the female security guard was a hero in preventing further bloodshed, rushing to confront the gunman just inside the church.

"She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon.

The pastor also said New Life had taken extra precautions Sunday after hearing of the attack in Arvada, Colorado, early Sunday morning, in which a gunman killed two people after he was refused lodging at Youth With a Mission live-in Christian missionary center.