Oops

[Jocassee]

If they do it fully Beslan style, I really doubt any CCW'ers are going to be able to stop them. Dozen guys in body armor with rifles and explosives vs sumdood with a snubby.... Might take one or two out, but stopping the attack? I doubt it.

Tokarev, 3 magazines 

[Balog]

Tokarev, 3 magazines 

That's nice. And you can kill a dozen men with rifles and body armor before they tag you? Impressive.

People really need to stop getting their tactics from action movies. In real life, the bad guys don't always miss.

[AJ Dual]

I fully expect a Beslan on COTUS if the non-crazy muslim community can't or won't ferret out the kra-zees in their midst.

In that case, I sure hope parents & others nearby have CCW, because early and aggressive "right the &^^% now" response by the real "first responders" is the only way to prevent a massacre, once the attackers have time to set up.

I think it'll be a lot of SOJS or "Sudden Onset Jihad Syndrome" Like Maj. Hassan and possibly Faisal Shahzad. They gravitate to the extremist rhetoric of certain Imams, but don't coordinate (much, if at all) with anyone else.

I've been completely befuddled about the lack of Beslans, spree shooters, IED's and suicide bombers here in the U.S., until I thought up this analogy.

Imagine if you were steaming mad at say... China. And they were engaged/involved in Canada. Would you, knowing nothing of China, where you don't speak the language, don't know the culture, don't blend in with the dominant ethnicity, or even the basics of how money, jobs, mass-transit, private transit etc. work there, much less obtaining guns and explosives through grey and black market channels, go there and try to blow up a shopping mall?

Or would you simply walk across the border into Canada, where you speak the language, they have very similar or even identical customs, and the local infrastructure will be understandable/navigable to you to try and dust it up with the Chinese.

Now say that you've got a group of other Americans backing you with money, training etc. Is now going to China to blow stuff up that much easier? Even assume there's a significant ex-pat American presence there in China with which you can try to gain a toe-hold first...

Nope. Walking to Canada is still easier.

I think the domestic people of interest who travel to the ME, and come back, or have contacts in that part of the world are the ones getting watched with a microscope. However, having lived here long enough, America becomes their own "backyard" and it's psychologically harder to set off SHTF in your own backyard.

So even amongst those who are already here, it's hard(er) to pull the trigger. Also, it's probably easier in the ME where you're more likely to see personal and state brutality every day. So that leaves the disgruntled, disaffected, and losers who latch onto Jihad more as a focus and framework for their angst and anti-social feelings, rather than as a genuine true-believer.

[Jocassee]

That's nice. And you can kill a dozen men with rifles and body armor before they tag you? Impressive.

People really need to stop getting their tactics from action movies. In real life, the bad guys don't always miss.

Probably not, but I like to think I could make them regret it.

[Balog]

You'd make the suicide bombers regret it? In Beslan iirc the first sign of trouble was the BG's snatching up a bunch of kids. So a dozen rifled armed body armored jihadis with a few suicide bomber types to start. Within a few minutes of initial contact they've got charges on the doors and airburst charges strung across the court. Unless there were odd circumstances, it's doubtfull you'd have a chance to get going before doing so was A Bad Idea. And even if you could, just know you'll die and probably not accomplish much. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, just wanting to squash the mall ninja fantasies these types of threads spring all too often.

[Jocassee]

You'd make the suicide bombers regret it? In Beslan iirc the first sign of trouble was the BG's snatching up a bunch of kids. So a dozen rifled armed body armored jihadis with a few suicide bomber types to start. Within a few minutes of initial contact they've got charges on the doors and airburst charges strung across the court. Unless there were odd circumstances, it's doubtfull you'd have a chance to get going before doing so was A Bad Idea. And even if you could, just know you'll die and probably not accomplish much. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, just wanting to squash the mall ninja fantasies these types of threads spring all too often.

No mall ninja fantasies here but at the same time...being there, being armed...I think any red-blooded male would engage the threat regardless of personal risk.

[BlueStarLizzard]

No mall ninja fantasies here but at the same time...being there, being armed...I think any red-blooded male would engage the threat regardless of personal risk.

considering the fact that in that particular situation, you'd be most likely dead either way, sure, why not...

however, if its just lil' ol' me with my CCW (which is 9+1, loaded and two extra mags, of store bought high end JHP) and i'm up against thugs of that quainity and caliber, unless they pick me out of the crowd to pick on (which means i'm dead either way) i'm gonna try to keep my gun, keep my head down and wait until the professionals arrive (and hope their a little more catious then the russians about acceptable risk for hostages)

tactically, (unless your gassed of course  ) your only advantage is when it the poo-poo hits the fan and the bad guys are fighting with the good guys and you have a chance to scurry away, which is where that pistol might come in handy.


i would always rather to live to fight again another day, thankyouverymuch. 

[MillCreek]

No mall ninja fantasies here but at the same time...being there, being armed...I think any red-blooded male would engage the threat regardless of personal risk.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to wait to make your move.  Back during the 1980 takeover of the Iranian embassy in London, PC Trevor Lock, the bobby guarding the entrance, was among the hostages.  PC Lock was armed with a S&W snubby.  He had the snubby during the entire hostage crisis.  PC Lock tackled the terrorist leader, drew his snubby and started wrestling with him when the SAS began storming the building.  The SAS promptly shot the leader, thus saving PC Lock from having to clean his snubby.  He won the Metropolitan Police's highest medal for heroism for his actions that day.

When asked why he did not intervene earlier, he memorably said: "There were six terrorists and I only had five bullets."  He bided his time and took decisive action when the time was right.  Good man.

[AJ Dual]

Well, for the reasons I outlined above, I think that Islamic terror will trend to the lone actor SOJS-type for the foreseeable future. Granted, Hassan and Shahzad are just two data points, (and a few more lone-actors who've gotten caught/interrupted, like the guy who was going to shoot up a .mil recruiting office) but I think that's the way it's trending.

And against those types, a single person with a CCW is potentially very effective.

While I fully concede I might be wrong, hell... I could be proven wrong before the day is over, but my gut tells me that if Beslan and Mumbai were going to happen here, it would have already.

[roo_ster]

You'd make the suicide bombers regret it? In Beslan iirc the first sign of trouble was the BG's snatching up a bunch of kids. So a dozen rifled armed body armored jihadis with a few suicide bomber types to start. Within a few minutes of initial contact they've got charges on the doors and airburst charges strung across the court. Unless there were odd circumstances, it's doubtfull you'd have a chance to get going before doing so was A Bad Idea. And even if you could, just know you'll die and probably not accomplish much. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, just wanting to squash the mall ninja fantasies these types of threads spring all too often.

The Beslan attackers arrived in a big *expletive deleted*ss military truck. 

Also, IIRC it took more than a "few minutes" to set up the explosives <digs around>  Here, it says they started placing explosives 1/2 hour after the attack started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

I suspected as much.  Herding little kids around takes time, and once they are scared and threatened to the point they are crying & terrified, more threats of violence & scary stuff just doesn't work on them as they are incapacitated.

So, in a big school like the one in Beslan (1000+ kids), it took the attackers 30 minutes until they started stringing explosives and some time after that before they were complete.

Sumdood dropping one or two before going down is still preferable than Sumdood just getting hosed and not taking any of the belligerents with him. Enough Sumdoods with snubbys and the belligerents are going to get whittled down a bit before the authorities show up.

*shrug* I guess I'm just for a more proactive self-defense approach than the current "curl up in a fetal position and pray" tactic being espoused by the gun-control fanatics.

Sumdood may be enough to screw up their plan just enough.......

The objective of immediate intervention is to mess with their time line and give the big guns time to respond before all those explosives are set up.  Make them work for it.  The odds for successful resolution after the explosives are put into place sink dramatically.

Besides, I know that when I drop my kids off at school in the ayem, I am not the only father with "the means at hand."   

[roo_ster]

I think it'll be a lot of SOJS or "Sudden Onset Jihad Syndrome" Like Maj. Hassan and possibly Faisal Shahzad. They gravitate to the extremist rhetoric of certain Imams, but don't coordinate (much, if at all) with anyone else.

Good point and a whole lot lower on the threat-o-meter.

[Fly320s]

That's nice. And you can kill a dozen men with rifles and body armor before they tag you? Impressive.

People really need to stop getting their tactics from action movies. In real life, the bad guys don't always miss.

and Balog really needs to get his funny bone checked.

[Balog]

Ummm, I'm pretty sure Jocassee wasn't kidding.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Interesting report on Beslan:
http://www.projectwhitehorse.com/pdfs/2.%20Our%20Worst.pdf

[280plus]

He bided his time and took decisive action when the time was right.  Good man

Just thought this bears repeating. Once again DISCRETION being the better part of valor. 

[MicroBalrog]

After the assault attempts failed, Interior Minister Anatoly Kulikov and Federal Security Service (FSB) Director General Mikhail Barsukov falsely declared that Raduyev's men had "executed all of the hostages".[6] Russian commanders then ordered their forces to open fire on the village with tanks and multiple rocket launchers. FSB Major General Alexander Mikhailov said that the rebels "had shot or hanged all or most" of the hostages, and commanders said they now planned to "flatten" Pervomayskoye.[19] Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin also said that no hostages remained alive. Nevertheless, hostages were still alive and appealing desperately to the Russian security forces to cease firing on the village, a New York Times correspondent reported that the Russians were "firing into Pervomaskoye at the rate of one a minute the same Grad missiles they used to largely destroy the Chechen capital Grozny when the conflict began".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar-Pervomayskoye_hostage_crisis#Siege_of_Pervomayskoye

[MicroBalrog]

You'd make the suicide bombers regret it?

The thing is.

These events, time and time again, rely on the attackers having one or two outspoken, intelligent, evil bastards in command. These guys are not suicidal. They want to live and do it again.

If you're engaging this kind of group, if you get only one guy out of ten, you have a 10% chance of messing up their entire plan because their commander is dead and can't run the show/negotiate with the police/ whatever.

Terrorist attacks can be, and have been in the past, stopped by a single guy with a pistol.

[Scout26]

I certainly don't think I'm Bruce Willis, but there's a reason I carry a firearm.  If I see  the Jihadbus pull up in front of my son or daugther's school and they start blazing away, then, as someone said in the "15 YO Girl Gang Raped" thread: "Valhalla Awaits !!"

But my action or inaction will completely depend on the situation as it presents itself.  In some situations discretion will be the better part of valor, in others; it may require wading right in, realizing that my life probably is forfeit.

[BlueStarLizzard]

But my action or inaction will completely depend on the situation as it presents itself.  In some situations discretion will be the better part of valor, in others; it may require wading right in, realizing that my life probably is forfeit.

always the best answer in terms of "what would you do?"

[Ryan in Maine]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8675978.stm

"It seems that they all died," the unnamed source was quoted as saying by Russia's Interfax news agency.

[280plus]

Well put Scout, I guess the situation would dictate the response. My thought has always been to try and take up a secure position from which I could ambush the SOBs, so that's what I'm thinking when I say discretion. I'd like to think I'd have the you know whats to wade in and trade shot for shot if necessary but having never been tested in that respect I really have no idea what might actually take place.