Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Perd Hapley on February 22, 2016, 07:57:43 AM
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There's no other way to explain it.
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Who is deranged, Cruz or his supporters?
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There is irrational dislike of him even among folks who should be his supporters.
The media propaganda against him has been very effective.
The fact both the D's and R establishment hate his policy positions has helped the irrationality along.
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This article is somewhat related to the OP.
Cruz just doesn't line up with the establishment agenda very well. He may fold on some stuff if elected but he doesn't seem to be their toady.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/02/the_establishments_path_to_victory.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook
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That's the real shame, the angry voters backing Trump... if they really wanted to "hurt" the beltway crowd, Cruz is who they want.
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There is irrational dislike of him even among folks who should be his supporters.
Well that, and the birtherism.
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That's the real shame, the angry voters backing Trump... if they really wanted to "hurt" the beltway crowd, Cruz is who they want.
Trump will "build a wall" and "force" people and companies to "do things". People want a dictator, not a leader.
Chris
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Trump will "build a wall" and "force" people and companies to "do things". People want a dictator, not a leader.
Chris
Ayep. If people actually listens to the things Trump says and the the things he's said in the past, they would run, not walk away from him.
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1. Always expect the Dems and further left to go Full Nazipoo-slinging on whomever the GOPPOTUS nominee might be. And then to go after whichever GOPPOTUStential candidate they think is furthest right in the GOP primary race. "Evil Bushitler R-money Womanhater McCainiac for $200, Alex."
2. Same crowd will also try to brand the GOPPOUTS nominee as stupid, much more stupid than such "thoughtful" sorts as folk who think like they do.
3. Triple intensity if the GOPPOTUS nominee is loud & proud about their Christianity.
4. MSM will aid in tasks #1 through #3.
There is irrational dislike of him even among folks who should be his supporters.
1. GOPe thinks otherwise. Cruz throwing them under his campaign bus is not something they look kindly upon. Even if Cruz is still the usual suck-up to the money behind GOPe.
2. Others who "should be his supporters" have listened to how Cruz says one thing to his Christian enthusiasts and another thing to inconvenient Christians & twinkles mcmoneybags. And thus rate him on-par with Trump in the integrity/likely follow-through department.
Trump will "build a wall" and "force" people and companies to "do things". People want a dictator, not a leader.
People want a fire ship, not a dictator or a leader.
A fire ship or fireship, used in the days of wooden rowed or sailing ships, was a ship filled with combustibles, deliberately set on fire and steered (or, where possible, allowed to drift) into an enemy fleet, in order to destroy ships, or to create panic and make the enemy break formation...An explosion ship or hellburner was a variation on the fire ship, intended to cause damage by blowing up in proximity to enemy ships.
And they think Trump will blow the hell out of Dem & GOP establishment, and the moneybags behind them both.
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And they think Trump will blow the hell out of Dem & GOP establishment, and the moneybags behind them both.
I find that hard to swallow from a candidate like trump
eminent domain, etc.
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1. Always expect the Dems and further left to go Full Nazipoo-slinging on whomever the GOPPOTUS nominee might be. And then to go after whichever GOPPOTUStential candidate they think is furthest right in the GOP primary race. "Evil Bushitler R-money Womanhater McCainiac for $200, Alex."
2. Same crowd will also try to brand the GOPPOUTS nominee as stupid, much more stupid than such "thoughtful" sorts as folk who think like they do.
3. Triple intensity if the GOPPOTUS nominee is loud & proud about their Christianity.
4. MSM will aid in tasks #1 through #3.
We're not talking about them. We're talking about you.
2. Others who "should be his supporters" have listened to how Cruz says one thing to his Christian enthusiasts and another thing to inconvenient Christians & twinkles mcmoneybags. And thus rate him on-par with Trump in the integrity/likely follow-through department.
I doubt most of his detractors are aware of the those things. But I could be wrong.
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We're not talking about them. We're talking about you.
Well, then you are clueless and unwilling to look at:
1. Empirical evidence such as Cruz's own words and actions.
2. Reasonable explanations by folks with serious misgivings regarding Cruz, based on his words and actions.
But keep calling it "Cruz Derangement Syndrome" if it makes you feel better about things. Similar reasonable objections to Obama and his policies didn't stop BHO's supporters from labeling that opposition "racism."
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If he gets the nod, I'll vote for him. Cruz running as anti establishment is laughable. He's been establishment since he joined up in 1999 as a policy adviser for Bush. Mix that with the big money he has happily accepted, and you have someone who is beholdind to special interests group(s). He's better than any Dem. But he ain't what he wants you the see him as.
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Well, then you are clueless and unwilling to look at:
1. Empirical evidence such as Cruz's own words and actions.
2. Reasonable explanations by folks with serious misgivings regarding Cruz, based on his words and actions.
I've looked at some of it. How could any of it be worse than Donald Trump's very dubious past? It doesn't make sense.
But keep calling it "Cruz Derangement Syndrome" if it makes you feel better about things. Similar reasonable objections to Obama and his policies didn't stop BHO's supporters from labeling that opposition "racism."
Hah. Cute. "Reasonable objections." No, I'm talking about people, on a different forum, who won't get behind Cruz because of their misgivings about whether he's a "natural born citizen." You see, the framers (according to these folks) defined "natural born citizen" in such a way that Cruz ain't one. Therefore, they can't trust that Cruz is an originalist (despite his being probably the most originalist candidate since James Madison), and they insist he shouldn't even run until the courts rule on what "natural-born citizen" means. That's derangement.
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I've looked at some of it. How could any of it be worse than Donald Trump's very dubious past? It doesn't make sense.
I do not know that it is worse, other than its premeditation and more recent vintage.
Cruz is clever in a lawyerly fashion, smart, and puts forethought into (most) his actions. He knows what his is doing when he argues it flat in front of one crowd, but argues it round to another. Were he more than usually trustworthy (for a policritter) he would be a very promising choice for a conventional conservative nominee. [Well, he still has his charisma deficit, but I can overlook that.]
Trump is not nearly so premeditated in his words & actions. Other than his big populist issues (the national question, trade) I discern little ideological or philosophical rigor over the time he has been a public figure. And as for the raft of issues on which Trump has been "born again conservative," he is little different from Romney & McCain (or any number of GOP candidates) on a similar-sized raft. Or Cruz on the national question.
Thus, I rate it a wash between the two on the Duplicity Metric. Since Trump is addressing the most pressing issue with the most vigor while Cruz is a "me-too" also-ran on the hook of his moneylenders, Trump gets my nod.
Also, Cruz is not a change agent. He would tinker and stitch up the GOP to some greater or lesser extent. That is not what I seek. Trump has the potential to be the catalyst for a rather profound political realignment. If Trump can hole the GOP below hte waterline, while consolidating nationalists and stealing populists from the Democrats (AKA, Reagan Democrats), we might beat back collapse and gain some time before it goes TU. Heck, just energizing nationalists is more good that Cruz is likely to accomplish as tax collector for the welfare state.
Hah. Cute. "Reasonable objections." No, I'm talking about people, on a different forum, who won't get behind Cruz because of their misgivings about whether he's a "natural born citizen." You see, the framers (according to these folks) defined "natural born citizen" in such a way that Cruz ain't one. Therefore, they can't trust that Cruz is an originalist (despite his being probably the most originalist candidate since James Madison), and they insist he shouldn't even run until the courts rule on what "natural-born citizen" means. That's derangement.
That is not what you wrote in your earlier post:
We're not talking about them. We're talking about you.
These are contradictory statements.
Just because you do not agree with every subjective call that I or others make does not mean it does not make any less sense than your (apparent) support of Cruz. Using your standards, I could (were I intellectually lazy) accuse you and others of "Trump Derangement Syndrome" instead of following your reasoning. Because I make different calls does not deprive your decision of reason or sense.
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Not contradictory. Your first reply started with a statement about how the Left will always savage the GOP candidate. While true, that is not the phenomenon of which I speak.
When I said, "we're talking about you," I meant the people one would expect to be Cruz's constituency. Some of you exhibit more Cruz derangement than others.
As far as my "Trump derangement," feel free to accuse me thereof. We'll see if it sticks.
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I find it amusing. All the reasons people should be weary of Trump, the Trumpkins are accusing Cruz of the same things. At the same time, supporting Trump because of statements against illegal immigration even though you have very little reason to expect Trump will actually follow though on any of it.
Either way, it will be a full on Hilary love fest in the media come summer time if not sooner.
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The fact both the D's and R establishment hate his policy positions has helped the irrationality along.
The local rag, the Austin American-Statesman, has a couple of daily columns titled "From the left" and "From the right" respectively, with different writers for each day of the week.
Lately, they're looking and sounding more alike - while the "From the left" column is modeling itself on circa-1980 Pravda, the "From the right" column seems to be coming right out of the DNC, with recent columns praising Bernie Sanders, rabidly attacking Trump, condemning Cruz, disparaging Carson, and scolding the 70% of GOP voters who have bought into the anti-GOP leadership libels of people like Ann Coulter and are upset with the GOP establishment. (I'm tempted to write a letter to the editor suggesting they re-title these columns "From the looney left" and "From the left".)
Considering both the nature of the attacks and who they're coming from, I'm only more convinced that one of the "outsiders" is a better choice than any "establishment" candidate.
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I really just don't buy Trump as an outsider.
He is an insider that is muscling in on the action.
After a lifetime of swimming in the same waters as the elite he realized he could school them at their own game.
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The local rag, the Austin American-Statesman, has a couple of daily columns titled "From the left" and "From the right" respectively, with different writers for each day of the week.
Lately, they're looking and sounding more alike - while the "From the left" column is modeling itself on circa-1980 Pravda, the "From the right" column seems to be coming right out of the DNC, with recent columns praising Bernie Sanders, rabidly attacking Trump, condemning Cruz, disparaging Carson, and scolding the 70% of GOP voters who have bought into the anti-GOP leadership libels of people like Ann Coulter and are upset with the GOP establishment. (I'm tempted to write a letter to the editor suggesting they re-title these columns "From the looney left" and "From the left".)
Considering both the nature of the attacks and who they're coming from, I'm only more convinced that one of the "outsiders" is a better choice than any "establishment" candidate.
The other blind spot people have in this election is that it's a two-axis political graph.
X axis, collectivist/Left vs. individualist/Right
Y axis, libertarian vs. authoritarian
And people conflate things they don't like, almost at random, with the simplistic Left/Right one dimensional axis.
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The other blind spot people have in this election is that it's a two-axis political graph.
X axis, collectivist/Left vs. individualist/Right
Y axis, libertarian vs. authoritarian
And people conflate things they don't like, almost at random, with the simplistic Left/Right one dimensional axis.
Knock it off with that fancy-talk, you commie Democrat!! :mad:
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The other blind spot people have in this election is that it's a two-axis political graph.
X axis, collectivist/Left vs. individualist/Right
Y axis, libertarian vs. authoritarian
And people conflate things they don't like, almost at random, with the simplistic Left/Right one dimensional axis.
Blind spot or merely different perspective? The biggest blind spot thus far in the primary season is that of the domesticated conservative commentariat and its followers pointing and spluttering that trump is "not a true comservative."
True or false, it is largely irrelevant.
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Blind spot or merely different perspective? The biggest blind spot thus far in the primary season is that of the domesticated conservative commentariat and its followers pointing and spluttering that trump is "not a true comservative."
True or false, it is largely irrelevant.
I don't know what a "true conservative" is. I see stuff like that mentioned all the time also. Seems like a lot of people have different ideas about what that is. I want a limited govt type conservative who respects the original language and meaning of the Constitution. I don't think Trump is that guy. Nor is Rubio. Cruz seems to be that guy or close to it.
That said, Trump and Rubio would be immensely better than Obama, Hilary, or Sanders. At this point, I think I would take Trump over Rubio. Cruz is still my #1.
When all is said and done, we have better choices on the Republican ticket this time than we did the last couple ...four or five elections in a really long damn time.
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At this point, I have no problem with voting for Cruz, some problems with voting for Rubio or Kasich, and major problems with voting for Trump. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.....
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There is chocolate in my peanut butter
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If we're talking politics then that ain't chocolate.
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That's the real shame, the angry voters backing Trump... if they really wanted to "hurt" the beltway crowd, Cruz is who they want.
Good point. Although not a big deal MSM news-wise, Gura's endorsement of him meant a lot to me.
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I really just don't buy Trump as an outsider.
He is an insider that is muscling in on the action.
After a lifetime of swimming in the same waters as the elite he realized he could school them at their own game.
I still say his campaign is a clinton Op.
There is no other way to explain the amount of left wing media attention he's getting.
Remember: The media also loved, and I mean LOVED McCain- up until the moment he got the nomination.
Once Trump gets the nomination, I think all of his skeletons, and there will be a lot of them, will be aired 24/7 up until the election.
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Cruz has a history of being on our side as an advocate of constitutional government; particularly noteworthy is his historic advocacy of our second amendment right.
Trump has a long history of not having a recognizable core belief system.
The establishment will probably breath a sigh of relief if Trump beats out Cruz. Trump they can make deals with, he isn't wedded to any rigid philosophy or system of morality. They will just need to sweeten the deal to get him to go along with the program.
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Cruz has a history of being on our side as an advocate of constitutional government; particularly noteworthy is his historic advocacy of our second amendment right.
Trump has a long history of not having a recognizable core belief system.
The establishment will probably breath a sigh of relief if Trump beats out Cruz. Trump they can make deals with, he isn't wedded to any rigid philosophy or system of morality. They will just need to sweeten the deal to get him to go along with the program.
Yes, while Cruz stands stalwart, telling GOPe and the moneybags, "No! Send me not your filthy lucre by which you seek me to betray mine oaths. I will stand, with manly firmness, for my beliefs. Even, yea, as you call in the loans the repayment of which would be my ruin, my children's peonage, and cause my wife to forego forever the delightful confines of Neiman Marcus for the vulgar aisles of Costco."
Again, not getting the reason many folk are in favor of Trump. And that ideology in American politics is yielding to nationalism. A nationalistic GOP or GOP-replacement is much more hateful to GOPe and the donor class than yet another ineffectual ideologue who throws boob bait for Bubba while doing the will of the donor class.
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At least Cruz doesn't have a history of supporting Nancy Pelosi and Hilary Clinton.
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At least Cruz doesn't have a history of supporting Nancy Pelosi and Hilary Clinton.
Pretty much to be expected that businessfolk who engage in business regulated by gov't will schmooze folks in gov't. IIRC, Trump even PAID HR Clinton to attend her daughter's wedding. Heck, I'll bet he has contributed $$$ to every mayor of NYC since he took over the family business. Real estate & construction is one of those sectors where you get your hands dirty, in more than one way.
OTOH, Cruz has never had a real non-political/non-lawyerly job. Certainly no job in an industry so heavily regulated by local, state, and fed.gov where it is necessary to interact with policritters regularly to get their approval to keep his business rolling.
I am not a "get a businessman to run the gov't" or a "run gov't along business principles" sort, but having a little experience outside gov't bureaucracy would be nice to see on Cruz's CV. Business, military service, something other than gov't job-hopping.
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Ah, a common symptom of CDS or TDS. Cruz is not to be trusted because he might sell out to a bank. Trump has already sold out, but that's OK.
So far, Cruz's "job-hopping" has been quite beneficial to us. I wish him Godspeed.
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I find it truly laughable that there are people who believe that Trump with "blow up the GOPe". Seriously?!?!? You say that with a straight face??
Trump is the wheeler-dealer deal maker. He'll sell out to the Beltway Establishment before he'd even swear the oath of office.
Yeah, he might build a wall, but he'll expand the H1B visa program, and create so many exceptions (and so little enforcement) that Trump's Wall will be a sieve. Remember, he's a business man. And once the US Chamber of Commerce (We Need Cheap Labor !!!), buttonholes him the wall will be a joke.
Yeah he might throw some out some bones to those that have pinned their hopes to him. Make America Great Again, which sounds like Hope and Change, and we'll have to elect him to find out what that means. As I posted on FB, this cycle's Trump voters where the two cycle ago Obama voters. Blind to what Trump has said and done in the past, with his hand-waveium of now.
And I find it odd that Cruz's minor deviations from Originalist Constitutional Conservativism are treated as major sins, while Trump's flip-flops and sudden "Conversion" to somewhat of a Conservative, is treated like Moses coming down from the mountain.
And if you think that Trump is more Christian than Cruz, I've got lot of Ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
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I find it truly laughable that there are people who believe that Trump with "blow up the GOPe". Seriously?!?!? You say that with a straight face??
Trump is the wheeler-dealer deal maker. He'll sell out to the Beltway Establishment before he'd even swear the oath of office.
Yeah, he might build a wall, but he'll expand the H1B visa program, and create so many exceptions (and so little enforcement) that Trump's Wall will be a sieve. Remember, he's a business man. And once the US Chamber of Commerce (We Need Cheap Labor !!!), buttonholes him the wall will be a joke.
Yeah he might throw some out some bones to those that have pinned their hopes to him. Make America Great Again, which sounds like Hope and Change, and we'll have to elect him to find out what that means. As I posted on FB, this cycle's Trump voters where the two cycle ago Obama voters. Blind to what Trump has said and done in the past, with his hand-waveium of now.
And I find it odd that Cruz's minor deviations from Originalist Constitutional Conservativism are treated as major sins, while Trump's flip-flops and sudden "Conversion" to somewhat of a Conservative, is treated like Moses coming down from the mountain.
And if you think that Trump is more Christian than Cruz, I've got lot of Ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
Exit polling shows that this cycle's Trump voters were most likely to vote for Romney last go 'round. I was surprised by that, but there you are. For example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-wins-nevada-caucus_us_56cdaa7ae4b0ec6725e47950
That is about the only fact or objective data in the post. As for the rest, I hope you get better:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumb7.shutterstock.com%2Fdisplay_pic_with_logo%2F636694%2F312430745%2Fstock-vector-ruptured-spleen-312430745.jpg&hash=751325d5b93853fcbed452aef327b957f6c2af6b)
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Exit polling shows that this cycle's Trump voters were most likely to vote for Romney last go 'round. I was surprised by that, but there you are. For example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-wins-nevada-caucus_us_56cdaa7ae4b0ec6725e47950
That is about the only fact or objective data in the post. As for the rest, I hope you get better:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumb7.shutterstock.com%2Fdisplay_pic_with_logo%2F636694%2F312430745%2Fstock-vector-ruptured-spleen-312430745.jpg&hash=751325d5b93853fcbed452aef327b957f6c2af6b)
All that shows is that Americans, and by that I mean a large percentage of them are easily duped.
There are a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed with Trump, if he gets elected at all.
I liked trump at first, but my BS meter is pegged with him, I'm just having a hard time with others not seeing it too.
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All that shows is that Americans, and by that I mean a large percentage of them are easily duped.
There are a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed with Trump, if he gets elected at all.
I liked trump at first, but my BS meter is pegged with him, I'm just having a hard time with others not seeing it too.
I'm an optimist, so I prefer to look on the bright side.
I expect the worst, so no matter what, I won't be disappointed by Trump and can only be pleasantly surprised.
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All that shows is that Americans, and by that I mean a large percentage of them are easily duped.
There are a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed with Trump, if he gets elected at all.
I liked trump at first, but my BS meter is pegged with him, I'm just having a hard time with others not seeing it too.
Welcome to America, where we elected FDR four times in a row.
Trump is a political unknown, which is part of his allure to some. For them, the roll of the dice beats the surety of continued status-quo with the Bush-Rubio-Cruz-Kasich-bot.
Behind curtain #1 lies the same old kick in the jimmy. Behind curtain #2 may be another kick in the jimmy...or a kiss on the cheek...or a rogering by a rampant ibex.
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You mean this trump?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailysheeple.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F08%2Ftrumpwedding.jpg&hash=fa6e0121a21658b46d1428d4121b9f9909702d36)
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Welcome to America, where we elected FDR four times in a row.
Trump is a political unknown, which is part of his allure to some. For them, the roll of the dice beats the surety of continued status-quo with the Bush-Rubio-Cruz-Kasich-bot.
Behind curtain #1 lies the same old kick in the jimmy. Behind curtain #2 may be another kick in the jimmy...or a kiss on the cheek...or a rogering by a rampant ibex.
I was listening to Newt and he nailed it exactly. Trump might be just the thing to shake up Washington. OR he might be an unmitigated disaster. I'm not sure I can even lay odds- personally I put option two as greater than 50%.
In any case, he's a risk. I don't trust him at all, and believe the risks he's lying are quite high, so I'd prefer not to take that risk.
Cruz is not a risk(at least, comparatively so.) He may be fully stymied by the Washington cartel, but his chances of being an unmitigated disaster are smaller.
Like most people, I'm risk averse, so I prefer Cruz. Much higher chance of success, but lower possible payout. (In terms of expected payout, he's WAY higher, but there is a chance Trump would shock the country into a return to constitutionalism and the rule of law. I just put that chance VERY low.)
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I was listening to Newt and he nailed it exactly. Trump might be just the thing to shake up Washington. OR he might be an unmitigated disaster. I'm not sure I can even lay odds- personally I put option two as greater than 50%.
Well, looking at it realistically from my current status, if we're looking at "burn this bitch down", Sanders would royally screw me and my retirement. Clinton would screw me. Trump might burn things down, but there's a higher probability that I'd be less negatively affected by anything Trump does, and there's at least a chance for a positive effect. There are no positives with Clinton or Sanders -- unless you consider a greater velocity heading towards the bottom, just to get things over with, a positive.
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Exit polling shows that this cycle's Trump voters were most likely to vote for Romney last go 'round. I was surprised by that, but there you are. For example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-wins-nevada-caucus_us_56cdaa7ae4b0ec6725e47950
I don't see anything in the article about Romney voters going for Trump. What I do see is that the article claims that Trump "disparaged" Latinos, and that Carson dropped out the race weeks ago.
Cruz has taken over HuffPo!!
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I find it truly laughable that there are people who believe that Trump with "blow up the GOPe". Seriously?!?!? You say that with a straight face??
Trump is the wheeler-dealer deal maker. He'll sell out to the Beltway Establishment before he'd even swear the oath of office.
Yeah, he might build a wall, but he'll expand the H1B visa program, and create so many exceptions (and so little enforcement) that Trump's Wall will be a sieve. Remember, he's a business man. And once the US Chamber of Commerce (We Need Cheap Labor !!!), buttonholes him the wall will be a joke.
Yeah he might throw some out some bones to those that have pinned their hopes to him. Make America Great Again, which sounds like Hope and Change, and we'll have to elect him to find out what that means. As I posted on FB, this cycle's Trump voters where the two cycle ago Obama voters. Blind to what Trump has said and done in the past, with his hand-waveium of now.
And I find it odd that Cruz's minor deviations from Originalist Constitutional Conservativism are treated as major sins, while Trump's flip-flops and sudden "Conversion" to somewhat of a Conservative, is treated like Moses coming down from the mountain.
And if you think that Trump is more Christian than Cruz, I've got lot of Ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
My opinion is if a politician was serious about illegal immigration there would be a focus of punishment on the types of businesses that hire undocumented workers. The talk of a wall is just to get votes.
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I was listening to Newt and he nailed it exactly. Trump might be just the thing to shake up Washington. OR he might be an unmitigated disaster. I'm not sure I can even lay odds- personally I put option two as greater than 50%.
In any case, he's a risk. I don't trust him at all, and believe the risks he's lying are quite high, so I'd prefer not to take that risk.
Cruz is not a risk(at least, comparatively so.) He may be fully stymied by the Washington cartel, but his chances of being an unmitigated disaster are smaller.
Like most people, I'm risk averse, so I prefer Cruz. Much higher chance of success, but lower possible payout. (In terms of expected payout, he's WAY higher, but there is a chance Trump would shock the country into a return to constitutionalism and the rule of law. I just put that chance VERY low.)
I make similar calculations, with similar odds. I judge the consequences of maintaining the status quo to be dire enough to roll the dice. Even if the odds of success are not in our favor. But, the odds most definitely are not in our favor and have not been for some time.
IMO, Cruz is merely status quo with more brains and better instincts. I bring up evidence of his two-facedness not to indicate that he is some sort of monster, but that he is no different from any likely GOP candidate/nominee in the last several cycles. Of course the Cruz partisans can not abide to see their angel sullied, so must accuse of being mentally ill those critics who give him the gimlet eye.
Cruz is no demon. He is Rubio with 30 more IQ points, more inner drive, and the ability to see and seize political opportunities.
I don't see anything in the article about Romney voters going for Trump.
Keep reading to the bottom. I could not find the article I read with the better laid-out data, but it has bits here & there.
I was a bit surprised by the Romney/Trump connection, but in retrospect maybe I ought not be. Both made their $$$ in the northeast, both have past at odds with doctrinaire establishment conservatism(1), both wealthy businessmen.
(1)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fizquotes.com%2Fquotes-pictures%2Fquote-those-are-my-principles-and-if-you-don-t-like-them-well-i-have-others-groucho-marx-120928.jpg&hash=fb762a8c5af7c6d3657cee375ddbe916c8628dbc)
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All that shows is that Americans, and by that I mean a large percentage of them are easily duped.
There are a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed with Trump, if he gets elected at all.
I liked trump at first, but my BS meter is pegged with him, I'm just having a hard time with others not seeing it too.
I don't think Trump supporters are duped. I think they are pissed the *expletive deleted*ck off at the establishment. I know I am.
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IMO, Cruz is merely status quo with more brains and better instincts. I bring up evidence of his two-facedness not to indicate that he is some sort of monster, but that he is no different from any likely GOP candidate/nominee in the last several cycles. Of course the Cruz partisans can not abide to see their angel sullied, so must accuse of being mentally ill those critics who give him the gimlet eye.
Oh stop. ;/ No one thought that "Bush Derangement Syndrome" or "Obama Derangement Syndrome" were diagnoses of actual mental illness. 's funny. I actually started this thread after seeing a Trump supporter on another forum decrying the anti-Trump "hysteria" of Republicans that weren't all-in for the Donald.
Personally, it's not sullying the angel that bothers me, in and of itself. What boggles, what mystifies, what rankles; is that people like you and I have been saying for several years that we wanted the GOP to run an actual "small-government" or "conservative" or "real" Republican candidate. Yet here we are, staring at the closest to that we're likely to see in our lifetime, and some of us are tearing down the "angel," and instead pushing someone who is nowhere close to being that kind of Republican. Someone who's only recently begun pretending to be a Republican. I don't think reason explains that.
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Oh stop. ;/ No one thought that "Bush Derangement Syndrome" or "Obama Derangement Syndrome" were diagnoses of actual mental illness. 's funny. I actually started this thread after seeing a Trump supporter on another forum decrying the anti-Trump "hysteria" of Republicans that weren't all-in for the Donald.
Personally, it's not sullying the angel that bothers me, in and of itself. What boggles, what mystifies, what rankles; is that people like you and I have been saying for several years that we wanted the GOP to run an actual "small-government" or "conservative" or "real" Republican candidate. Yet here we are, staring at the closest to that we're likely to see in our lifetime, and some of us are tearing down the "angel," and instead pushing someone who is nowhere close to being that kind of Republican. Someone who's only recently begun pretending to be a Republican. I don't think reason explains that.
There's a lot of this cog-dis going round.
It was just a few years ago that Rubio was the crowning achievement of the Tea Party when they, or at least Tea Party-ish sentiments sent Crist packing in the primary.
Granted, he did a lot of damage to his credibility with the gang-of-8 fiasco, and he could have actually used it to recoup some of it by simply apologizing, and using it as an opportunity to point out Democrat duplicity on the issue, and that they can't be trusted, but still... now he's the leading GOPe candidate, and above and beyond that roo_ster is convinced Cruz is GOPe too. (shrug)
Honestly, I chalk it all up to the damage done to the entire American psyche the past eight years. All of us. =(
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Cruz is nowhere near the "close enough" conservative. Not even in he same solar system. He is an establishment hack, albeit a young one, but still a hack. If I vote, I will vote for the republican candidate, not for them, but against the democrat.
People are tired of the establishment. Establishment defined as BOTH political parties. Only difference between the Rs and Ds is the speed of the handbasket headed to hell; the republicans take the Sunday drive while the democrats use the express lane.
I am to the point that we are past any solution that requires voting for / electing "whoever" to fix this country.
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I don't think Trump supporters are duped. I think they are pissed the *expletive deleted*ck off at the establishment. I know I am.
Oh I get that, hence the reason why I cheered Trump early on. However, if you objectively look at Trump, there is no way you can come away believing his bullshit. He doesn't have a plan, he has platitudes, he tells you what you want to hear. He's mothing mire than right wing hopey-changey, with the actual right wing thing being questionable.
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Oh I get that, hence the reason why I cheered Trump early on. However, if you objectively look at Trump, there is no way you can come away believing his bullshit. He doesn't have a plan, he has platitudes, he tells you what you want to hear. He's mothing mire than right wing hopey-changey, with the actual right wing thing being questionable.
Never said I believed him or supported him. His bullshit is the same as the BS Cruz, Rubio, Carson and Kasich are spewing, just a different flavor.
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Never said I believed him or supported him. His bullshit is the same as the BS Cruz, Rubio, Carson and Kasich are spewing, just a different flavor.
Cruz, Kasich,and Rubio at least have some conservative credentials, Trump does not.
None are perfect, though Cruz got my support when he was willing to give the iowan ethanol interests the finger- Trump politically fellated them, promising more ethanol mandates...
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I look at Trump as a flamboyant circus sideshow geek, stirring up the proletariat by biting the heads of the establishment's chickens.
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Oh stop. ;/ No one thought that "Bush Derangement Syndrome" or "Obama Derangement Syndrome" were diagnoses of actual mental illness. 's funny. I actually started this thread after seeing a Trump supporter on another forum decrying the anti-Trump "hysteria" of Republicans that weren't all-in for the Donald.
Personally, it's not sullying the angel that bothers me, in and of itself. What boggles, what mystifies, what rankles; is that people like you and I have been saying for several years that we wanted the GOP to run an actual "small-government" or "conservative" or "real" Republican candidate. Yet here we are, staring at the closest to that we're likely to see in our lifetime, and some of us are tearing down the "angel," and instead pushing someone who is nowhere close to being that kind of Republican. Someone who's only recently begun pretending to be a Republican. I don't think reason explains that.
I can explain it for you, as I have several times, but I can not understand it for you(1). It boils down to seeing the same potful of data and assigning different weights to them while processing them through a different set of priorities. Do you have a similarly difficult time following the reasoning charby used to end up voting for Rubio?
Also, how is it "tearing down" Cruz by repeating words he spoke willingly from his own mouth, no duress? And repeating documented fact such as his loan from Goldman-Sachs.
Cruz is nowhere near the "close enough" conservative. Not even in he same solar system. He is an establishment hack, albeit a young one, but still a hack. If I vote, I will vote for the republican candidate, not for them, but against the democrat.
Well, Cruz is not just that. He is smart, driven, and has good political instincts. But yes, he is a hack who has always been a party man and not much else. Still, better than average and better than the not-as-bright Rubio.
A few levels down the political food chain is a sharp fellow related to my wife at a couple removes by marriage. Smart guy, a few years younger than my wife and I. Majored in poli-sci, went to law school, got on the staff of some senator or representative who had just retired or lost re-election. We were at dinner and he was talking about getting a lawyer-job, but was conflicted. No one was hiring him because he had told too many people he was going to run for some office next year. He asked what he ought to do. I told him I would not likely vote for someone with his CV, even if we were on the same page, politically, because he had never done anything particularly useful, challenging, or character building. I told him his best bet was to get a job, start a business, make a payroll, enlist in the Reserves of NG, get his kids through college. The run for office in 25 years. He was not overjoyed to hear my advice.
Maybe if Cruz had done something, anything, other than serve his own ambition his entire adult life I would say, "Nope, throwing the dice on Trump just is not worth it." I dunno. As it is, I would say that, credential-wise, Cruz in 2016 is on par with Obama in 2008. OK, I will give Cruz the edge due to his work as TX solicitor general. By all reports, he performed that task with skill.
(1) One piece of information that may help is that the GOP base voted for folk saying the same things Cruz says, elected enough of them to give over an entire branch of gov't to the GOP and the folk we voted into power accomplished...what? They had/have all the power they need. Yet they do not use it. After a while, a rational man must come to the conclusion that they do not actually want to do what they say. Giving such folk yet another branch of gov't with which they will do nothing to solve our nation's problems hardly seems worth the bother.
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(1) One piece of information that may help is that the GOP base voted for folk saying the same things Cruz says, elected enough of them to give over an entire branch of gov't to the GOP and the folk we voted into power accomplished...what? They had/have all the power they need. Yet they do not use it. After a while, a rational man must come to the conclusion that they do not actually want to do what they say. Giving such folk yet another branch of gov't with which they will do nothing to solve our nation's problems hardly seems worth the bother.
^This.
Rubio is the perfect example of this. Hell, IIRC Kasich even supported and voted for the 94 AWB. Why did kasich have a change of heart? He's wanting to get elected. They all are. The all lie. If their lips are moving, *expletive deleted*it is comming out. Especially Cruz.
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Also, how is it "tearing down" Cruz by repeating words he spoke willingly from his own mouth, no duress? And repeating documented fact such as his loan from Goldman-Sachs.
How? It's when you follow it up with this:
Well, Cruz is not just that. He is smart, driven, and has good political instincts. But yes, he is a hack who has always been a party man and not much else. Still, better than average and better than the not-as-bright Rubio.
Typical primary nonsense. It's not enough to just say why your guy is better. We always have to sabotage the other candidates, even when they might end up being the nominee.
Maybe if Cruz had done something, anything, other than serve his own ambition his entire adult life...
Yeah, it's not like winning cases (or filing amicus briefs) with the Supreme Court ever helped anybody. It's not as if keeping a Democrat out of the White House (2000) might have been helpful to anybody. (Maybe didn't turn out that great in hindsight, but you can't blame Cruz for that.)
And what's Trump best known for? His selfless service to the common good? ???
One piece of information that may help is that the GOP base voted for folk saying the same things Cruz says, elected enough of them to give over an entire branch of gov't to the GOP and the folk we voted into power accomplished...what? They had/have all the power they need. Yet they do not use it. After a while, a rational man must come to the conclusion that they do not actually want to do what they say. Giving such folk yet another branch of gov't with which they will do nothing to solve our nation's problems hardly seems worth the bother.
This would make sense to me if you were talking about other Congressfolk. Wouldn't electing Cruz to the big chair show every other half-way ambitious Republican that fighting the Democrats pays off? Wouldn't that teach the Congressional GOP to grow a spine?
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(1) One piece of information that may help is that the GOP base voted for folk saying the same things Cruz says, elected enough of them to give over an entire branch of gov't to the GOP and the folk we voted into power accomplished...what? They had/have all the power they need. Yet they do not use it. After a while, a rational man must come to the conclusion that they do not actually want to do what they say. Giving such folk yet another branch of gov't with which they will do nothing to solve our nation's problems hardly seems worth the bother.
If I recall correctly, Cruz didn't "Go along to get along." He actively did (and called our his fellow R's who didn't) do everything in his power to stop Obama. IIRC, he shut down the .gov prior to the O-care roll-out to try to stop it. He has filibusted, voted against and tried every parliamentary trick in the Senate book to try and stop the CRs, Obamacare, "Immigration Reform", and Obamamnesty for Kids, and all of Obama's other attempts to shred the Constitution and the GoAlong Republicans. Yet you lump him in with them??
All I know is that actions speak louder then words and he has consistently stood up to stop the shredding of the Constitution and Obama (and the Goalong R's) power grasping over-reach.
Trump is a giant windbag and the consummate beltway insider, but hey he talks a good game so I'll place all my Hopey-Changey dreams in him.
Enjoy the Trump-Aid....
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There's a lot of *expletive deleted*ing straight up crack smoking going on in this thread....
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roo_ster and BMofZ are Trump supporters. The have little good to say about the man (other than Wallz!), but have spent a great deal of time and energy attacking Cruz and others. The funny part is just about every subject they are attacking Cruz on, Trump is guilty of the same thing often worse.
Trump wasn't a politician taking money for favors, but he was part of that system. He was feeding Democrats money for favors. He was part of the "moneyed interests" helping manipulate politicians. On top of it, over the last 10 or 15 years, he was giving money to top politicians helping them screw us over.
Lastly, Trump doesn't support Obamacare, but he wants to go further to a single payer Canadian health care system. Won't that be fun.
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There's a lot of *expletive deleted*ing straight up crack smoking going on in this thread....
Be gentle with the Cruz supporters. They seem a bit sensitive and are not enjoying this primary race nearly as much as I am.
fistful, the ongoing game of responding to your queries and receiving calumny in return is getting somewhat tiresome.
fistful: How can it be?
roo_ster: This way
fistful: Rant.
Fistful: It makes no sense! Show me the sense!
roo_ster: Explains.
fistful: Cruz derangement syndrome.
fistful: I can not fathom the reason!
roo_ster: Explains reasons, both particular and general case.
fistful: Stop tearing my man down with primary nonsense.
At this point, you either understand (though may not agree with) the logic and can make the case for Trump your own self or you will never have the capacity. For my own part, I could make a case for Cruz. If Cruz wins GOPPOTUS nomination I may do just that. I can do either without assuming anger, derangement, or whining that the supporters of the other candidate are being mean to my guy.
And, for the record:
1. Elective office is self-serving.
2. Appointed office is self-serving
3. Civil service job is self-serving.
Unless any of the above three are weighted down with UCMJ consequences (Long Course at Ft Leavenworth if quit, can be ordered to risk life where refusal can mean court martial & death) they are self serving. ALL are more self-serving than providing a product or service to someone in the marketplace.
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What if Cruz loses in Texas?
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It must be roo_ster's first time disagreeing with anybody, ever. This is what it looks like, roo. I'll quit "whining," if you quit whining about the fact that I think you're nuts.
What if Cruz loses in Texas?
Well, that will have nothing to do with the FUD spread by the Trump supporters. Nothing at all. Why do I "whine" so much about it? It's not like it ruins our chances of getting the first decent president since Reagan. ???
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It must be roo_ster's first time disagreeing with anybody, ever. This is what it looks like, roo. I'll quit "whining," if you quit whining about the fact that I think you're nuts.
So you do not have the capacity to understand the logic and therefore claim it is black magic insanity?
What if Cruz loses in Texas?
I think it would be a severe enough blow to knock him out. [The big surprise vis a vis Trmp vs Cruz is the "Evangelical" vote going for Trump. An examination of that phenomenon would be helpful when explaining Trump's success thus far in the primary season.]
For my own part, I would prefer Rubio lose Florida to Trump and Cruz to win Texas.
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So you do not have the capacity to understand the logic and therefore claim it is black magic insanity?
Calumny! Calumny!
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What if Cruz loses in Texas?
If he does, we're ALL screwed.....
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If he does, we're ALL screwed.....
We're screwed anyways, just a matter of how long
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Calumny! Calumny!
It is a question, not an accusation.
Here, you get cheese for trying, though:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cheesematters.com.au%2FAssets%2FImages%2F8e0fbe22-5328-4316-a008-ca8d274dfe80.jpg&hash=d6adf413e4c3a3d07be99c8bc12df77426b6b2f4)
A soft cheese that gets limp & runny when heat is applied.
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Trump is the walking definition of Crony Capitalist. If it looks like he'll get the nomination, the GOPe will begin to work with him and bring him into the fold. Trump won't blow up the GOPe, he'll strengthen it and become a part of it. And he'll sell out (he's a businessman remember)to GOPe even before he swears the oath of office. You know The Art of the Deal, he's not going to confront the GOPe, He's going to sell out the American people for a pat on the head.
And I disagree about public service being self serving. Quite few people go into it to make a difference, especially when they run for office. Some want raw power (Clinton, Trump) others are True Believers and want to make a difference (Cruz, Sanders).
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Replace hope and change with make america great again, and Trump is pretty well using the same play book as Obama did. Preaching useless BS tailor written to the crowd he's visiting that day, which is often in direct conflict with a wide open and out there track record. And in much the same way, the mob is eating it up and will end up with food poisoning later. Just a little different mob with a little different tastes. About the only real difference is his party is trying to torpedo him instead of embracing him.
And all this when running against a guy that is pretty well what we've all been screaming for over several election cycles, who actually had a good chance until folks got all dreamy eyed.
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Replace hope and change with make america great again, and Trump is pretty well using the same play book as Obama did. Preaching useless BS tailor written to the crowd he's visiting that day, which is often in direct conflict with a wide open and out there track record. And in much the same way, the mob is eating it up and will end up with food poisoning later. Just a little different mob with a little different tastes. About the only real difference is his party is trying to torpedo him instead of embracing him.
And all this when running against a guy that is pretty well what we've all been screaming for over several election cycles, who actually had a good chance until folks got all dreamy eyed.
Pretty much. Now why would anyone voice the tiniest complaint about that, I wonder? Why would anyone find that less than reasonable? How could this be?
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It's hopeless guys. Roo_ster has heard they Siren call of the Donald so all the logic and reasoning in the world will not work. If perhaps, Trump does win it all, when he appoints the first same-sex married couple to his cabinet and doubles the funding for Planned Parenthood, we can come back to these threads and re-visit Roo_ster pronouncements.
[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
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Trump is an amoral, philandering windbag, with no moral compass, and no idealogical core values. Berlesconi with (marginally) better English, and worse hair.
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It's hopeless guys. Roo_ster has heard they Siren call of the Donald so all the logic and reasoning in the world will not work. If perhaps, Trump does win it all, when he appoints the first same-sex married couple to his cabinet and doubles the funding for Planned Parenthood, we can come back to these threads and re-visit Roo_ster pronouncements.
[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
Great scot would you all man up a bit instead of running around with your skirts pulled over your heads?
You all are embarassing yourselves with your hysterics. Get a grip or turn in your man cards.
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I think Cruz shold run for governor of Texas, then try for president again after a few terms as governor.
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I think Cruz shold run for governor of Texas, then try for president again after a few terms as governor.
Like Rubio did? ;)
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I think Cruz shold run for governor of Texas, then try for president again after a few terms as governor.
Or Trump....
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Great scot would you all man up a bit instead of running around with your skirts pulled over your heads?
You all are embarassing yourselves with your hysterics. Get a grip or turn in your man cards.
I thought you said calumny was bad. :lol:
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If you can win the Republican nomination with insults while your followers ignore the facts, maybe you can win threads that way also!
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It's like playing some sort of card...
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Like Rubio did? ;)
We're all going to be butthurt when Hillary wins. Plenty if time for all the losers to get executive experience for 2024.
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If you can win the Republican nomination with insults while your followers ignore the facts, maybe you can win threads that way also!
Yep
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We're all going to be butthurt when Hillary wins. Plenty if time for all the losers to get executive experience for 2024.
In all seriousness I'm still thinking Hillary will "win" the presidency.
There is no way the GOP can beat the level of blatant, in you face fraud we are going to see once the primaries are over. The main stream media will run interference for her and anyone that even suggests there may be some irregularity will be beat down in the press for being anti-woman, anti-children, anti-human...
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In all seriousness I'm still thinking Hillary will "win" the presidency.
There is no way the GOP can beat the level of blatant, in you face fraud we are going to see once the primaries are over. The main stream media will run interference for her and anyone that even suggests there may be some irregularity will be beat down in the press for being anti-woman, anti-children, anti-human...
I'm not sure. Hillary is such a terrible candidate, she may be outside the "margin of fraud". I don't think they can get away with 5% of the votes being fraudulent.
But, I'm more than willing to accept that I'm wrong.
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Once Trump wins the nomination the long knives will come out. The media will destroy him. The man has to have a mansion worth of closets filled with skeletons. He is getting a pass by the media on the crazy stuff he is saying now but that won't last once he secures the nomination. All of a sudden "gravitas" and "respect" will become important.
The media is giving him a pass because he is destroying the GOPe and tea party. If you think they are going to let him do the same thing to the Democrats you are delusional.
He is a stalking horse either by design or chance of circumstance. Either way an establishment player will be president eventually.
Trump is establishment.
Cruz and Paul are the only candidates with any claim to having any principles based on the constitution, maybe Carson also. None of them will be let near the Presidency.
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The fun will be the reaction when President Trump doesn't do anything his supporters expect him to do.
I honestly think Hilary has such tepid support in the D party that even their fraud masters are not enthusiastic about supporting her. Turnout in democrat primaries is not high.
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The fun will be the reaction when President Trump doesn't do anything his supporters expect him to do.
This is another problem that mitigates that worry.
If people have gotten so fed up with the process that they would elect Trump, were he to turn around and stab them all in the back we might have an actual revolution, not just a political one.