What does Obama stand for?

[freakazoid]

(given what happened/is happening in communist states)

lol, a communist state is an oxymoron. Communism is stateless.

Everyone who keeps saying he is a Marxist is wrong. If he was then why do actuall communists/socialists say that they wouldn't vote for him, or anybody for that matter, Democrat or Republican.

[Balog]

The poster doth protest too much.....................

Do I get banned if I disagree with an administrator? for being an evasive tool?

God let's hope so.

[Nick1911]

The poster doth protest too much.....................

Do I get banned if I disagree with an administrator?

You can disagree with who ever you want without getting banned, if you do so in a civil way.

From this, and other posts of yours, let me offer you some advice:  If you want to be taken seriously here, you need to back up anything you assert as factual with data from an un-bias source.

[K Frame]

"If you think MI did it because of hatred, as you wrote, do please provide some supporting data."

Exactly.

I requested that he prove that I have a hatred-based bias against Senator Obama using statements here, or elsewhere.

The request was ignored. Not surprising.


You won't be banned for disagreeing with an admin.

You can be banned, however, for making scurrilous accusations against another member of this board, administrator or not.

[Scout26]

Perxactly, argue the idea not the person.

Obama has left a clear trail of being a leftist, if anyone would bother to look. 

El Tejon has meet and talked with the man personally, in his home.

I live in the state that was a State Senator and is currently a  US senator.   I know his record. 

[old school]

"If you think MI did it because of hatred, as you wrote, do please provide some supporting data."

You are right on this one. Absolutely right. I should have never said what I thought about MI's motives. And you are also right that there is no way to substantiate what you think someone else is thinking. For that I am truly sorry that I said it on a public forum.

However, there are a lot of other people that are not held to account for the accusation that have been made toward people like myself, ShootingStudent and others who have proposed less popular views. People have accused me of being a spokesperson for Obama. People have made unfair generalizations about me because I had an opposing view and called me troll and other things.

So, if it is fair to say IM is innocent until proven guilty, why is if fair to say people who have an opposing view are guilty until proven innocent? I am man enough to admit that I was out of line for telling IM that I did not believe his motives, I am glad to accept apologies from anyone who is "man enough" to own up to what they said. And, no I am not going to scour previous threads for examples and call people out one by one. They know who they are. And, If I don't hear from them, I will know who is man enough.

[Grandpa Shooter]

Uh, Guys and Gals,

Can we get back on topic here.  Not one of you has offered anything by way of enlightenment as to what Obama's principles are.  I have heard or read all of the inflamatory rhetoric thank you.  Can we get back on topic and get you kind folks helping me gain some insight into Obama.  I have a good read on McCain. Can't stomach Hillary and company.  I have no experiential background for understanding Obama.  Different generation, different faith base, different cultural baggage, etc.  I grew up in a small town with only anglos of European descent, lived in a large metropolitan area which rapidly grew to be multi-cultural, while my neighborhood stayed predominantly anglo.  I now live in a rural mountain area which is, you guessed it, predominantly anglo (mostly LDS).

I am sincere about wanting help understanding.  I did not post this thread to solicit vitriol or diatribes against anyone.

[old school]

I would like to personally apologies for my part in distracting this thread from your origional question.

I will tell you that the I am most compelled by Obamas statements regarding corruption and campaign refinance. This is one of my most important issues because I think corruption is our countries biggest problem. A lot of our smaller problems are just symptoms of the larger problem that is corruption.

When he speaks at rallys he almost always dedicates significant time to the subject of special interest and corruption. What a President can do and what he would actually do about it remains to be seen. I think the congress is where it has to be done. But he is actually talking about it. I hope that the light he sheds on it will make a difference in itself.

[grampster]

Without insulting anyone's sensibilities, does anyone find it ironic that the young man, old school, holds up Obama's views on special interests and corruption as a primary reason he is a follower?
Obama would be well versed in those two areas as he is the handmaiden of the Chicago/Daley/Blago machine.

Jfruser's comments about Obama come from Obama's own writing from some time ago.  I would put more validity on that than anything on the Obama for President website which would be an exercise in electioneering propaganda.

 One is also known by the company one keeps.  I know in my case, I do not go out of my way to hang around with people who have disagreeable opinions.

I keep waiting for Obama to say that the only reason he has hung around with the people he has for all of his adult life is that he wanted to fully understand the viewpoints of the people that he totally disagrees with. 

[Glock Glockler]

a communist state is an oxymoron. Communism is stateless

I must have been imagining the USSR, Red China, East Germany, Castro's Cuba, ect.

Everyone who keeps saying he is a Marxist is wrong. If he was then why do actuall communists/socialists say that they wouldn't vote for him, or anybody for that matter, Democrat or Republican

Ok, so someone is or is not a Marxist not based upon their beliefs and actions but rather what other people say about him?   Thanks.

[old school]

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.............

Sorry GrampaShooter, you deserve better quality answers.

[freakazoid]

I must have been imagining the USSR, Red China, East Germany, Castro's Cuba, ect.

Those are not, have not ever been, a communist society.

Ok, so someone is or is not a Marxist not based upon their beliefs and actions but rather what other people say about him?

Don't you think that people that actually are what you claim him to be, Marxist/communist/socialist, would know better on whether or not he is one? His beliefs are not communist. Where exactly has he said that he wishes to get rid of the state and put the workers in control of their means of production? No where, he just want's to make the state bigger, not abolish it.

[Glock Glockler]

Those are not, have not ever been, a communist society.

Claiming that makes it so much easier to dismiss the complete failure that Marxism is.  Whenever a group claiming to support Marxism takes over a state the standard of living plumets and large numbers of people are murdered by the state.

Where exactly has he said that he wishes to get rid of the state and put the workers in control of their means of production? No where, he just want's to make the state bigger, not abolish it

How, exactly, does one put the workers in control of production?  If I own a factory it's mine, how do the "workers" get control of it?  Government force!  The funny thing is that Communists/Marxists never actually get around to dissolving the state, all one ever sees is the government seizing all property, lovely model. 

[MicroBalrog]

Those are not, have not ever been, a communist society.

You need to read Das Kapital again.

[freakazoid]

You need to read Das Kapital again.

Haven't read it yet.

Claiming that makes it so much easier to dismiss the complete failure that Marxism is.

And the US is a democracy and land of the free right? Because it must be true if that is what our rulers say.

Whenever a group claiming to support Marxism takes over a state the standard of living plumets and large numbers of people are murdered by the state.

That seems to happen to a lot of different groups.

How, exactly, does one put the workers in control of production?

That is a discusion for another topic.

[Sergeant Bob]

Enough with the semantic masturbation already.

[seeker_two]

Enough with the semantic masturbation already.

Yeah....quit rubbin' it in, already....

[Silver Bullet]

What does Obama stand for ?

Probably something like,

Our Brother Against Middle  America

I haven't copyrighted this.  Please feel free to improve on it !

[alex_trebek]

Grandpa Shooter,

Here is a link to Obama's voting record.  http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490

Since he "flip-flops" as much as any other politician, I recommend you let simply let his record speak for its self.  IMO, he is just like any other politician.  If his lips are moving......  This seems to be about the best anyone can do, even his supporters have a hard time proving that he walks the walk.

[Manedwolf]

The NY Post had a huge page spread of every issue he's flip-flopped on.

Good.

[MechAg94]

Regarding Corruption and Campaign Finance Reform

1.  Anyone coming out of Chicago politics will have to really prove to me that they are NOT corrupt.  Wasn't there a "friend" of Obama who was recently convicted of fraud or corruption? 

2.  The only campaign finance reform I want to see is to get rid of all the campaign finance reform.  When you hear those words, you should automatically substitute "incumbent protection reform".  I believe I heard someone point out a while back that turnover in Congress was higher before the first campaign finance reform was enacted.  It is impossible to take the money out of politics.  It won't happen and no amount of new laws will change that.  Better to simply remove the limits and require 100% of all donations to anyone who is politically active to be reported immediately and publicly so we all will know who is getting money from whom.  If George Soros wants to donate 10 million to a candidate, fine.  I think a straight up donation would be better than Soros forming his own 501c organization and doing the same thing. 

3.  Yes, I know McCain's record on #2.

[agricola]

This speech of his in Indepedence, MO (do they pick these places based on their names?) seems a bit heavy on the saccharine... he is even praising McCain.

[El Tejon]

.  Anyone coming out of Chicago politics will have to really prove to me that they are NOT corrupt.  Wasn't there a "friend" of Obama who was recently convicted of fraud or corruption?

That is a smart presumption.  Living so close to Chicago and being an inmate of Chicago for 3 years, I would go further--all Chicago politicians have an irrebuttable presumption of being corrupt.

Tony Rezko is who you are thinking of.  He gave Obama the sweetheart real estate deal when Obama was living on 54th in Park View East.

[MechAg94]

That is especially true when you see that Obama's entire political life and experience is in Chicago. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

What makes anyone think that Obama stands for anything except himself?