Author Topic: Screaming beards strike again.  (Read 9684 times)

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2008, 10:31:31 AM »
Christianity has moved past the temper-tantrum teen angst stage of killing and rioting?

I have a few Irish immigrant friends who would tell you different.

The problem with ALL monotheistic religions is that they are inherently incompatible with each other. When Christianity in America is tolerant of other religions, it is not because of some innate quality rooted deep in the faith, it is in SPITE of it.

The same applies to Islam in Muslim countries. When they are/were (supposedly) tolerant of other faiths, it is in spite of their religious teachings. When they riot against Christians in Indonesia, they are truly following their faith.

Whether it is a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, it does not matter. Pay attention to the scriptures, including the Koran. The reason Americans are tolerant of other religions is not because they are mostly Christian and Christianity encourages it; quite the opposite is true. 

Americans are tolerant because American values are in many ways based on SECULAR Enlightenment philosophy, and because of our traditional POLITICAL opposition to the combination of church and state. American Christians are tolerant because their REASON demands it, even though their FAITH objects to it.

The Christian, Muslim or Jew who lashes out against other faiths is simply doing what their religion logically requires of them.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2008, 12:35:22 PM »
seems that the christians were a lillesss than kind to indians  way i remember it they collected blankets and clothes during an epidemic in new orleans loaded em in a wagon drove it and left it  for the indians to find.  and didn't the canadians play nasty that way too?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Manedwolf

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2008, 12:47:31 PM »
seems that the christians were a lillesss than kind to indians  way i remember it they collected blankets and clothes during an epidemic in new orleans loaded em in a wagon drove it and left it  for the indians to find.  and didn't the canadians play nasty that way too?

Oh, now we're going back THREE HUNDRED YEARS to find relevance to what's going on today?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2008, 01:14:48 PM »
300?!  new math?
http://www.boston.com/news/world/canada/articles/2008/06/11/canada_to_apologize_for_abuse_to_indians/
Home / News / World / Canada Canada to apologize for abuse to Indians
Sought to forcibly 'Christianize and civilize' population
 Prime Minister Stephen Harper will make the formal apology. 

Email|Print|Single Page| Text size  + By Maggie Farley
Los Angeles Times / June 11, 2008
OTTAWA - For eight years, Thomas Louttit was forced to attend a residential school whose mission was to "Christianize and civilize" Canada's native people. He doesn't remember much of what he learned, but he is keenly aware of what he lost.

more stories like this"They gave us a number. That's all our name was. We didn't speak their language, and we were not allowed to speak ours," he said.

Like other students, he said, he was sexually abused, a secret that filled him with shame and remained untold until many years later.

"You forget how to cry, you forget how to show your feelings," he said. "We were never taught to say, 'I love you.' We were never taught to forgive."

Now, 12 years after the last residential school shut down, Canada is asking the 150,000 students and their descendants if it is indeed possible to forgive. Tomorrow, Prime Minister Stephen Harper will formally apologize to Canada's aboriginal people and declare his support for a truth and reconciliation commission.

A $1.9-billion compensation fund, created after the federal government settled a lawsuit in 2006, already has begun payouts. Every student is receiving some money; those who were abused are getting higher amounts.

But some say that the process might be more for the perpetrators than for the victims.

"The important thing is that they own up to what they did, admit that it is unconscionable, and it was genocide," said Roland Chrisjohn, the director of the native studies program at St. Thomas University in Saskatchewan, and a member of the Iroquois nation. "But they are afraid that such an admission would bring with it criminal liability."

Over a century, Canada's government and churches built 130 residential schools. Children were forcibly taken from their parents to instill mainstream language, culture, and values. An Indian Affairs official in 1920 said the goal was "to kill the Indian in the child."

"Our object is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed . . . and there is no Indian question," wrote Duncan Campbell Scott, deputy superintendent general of the Indian Affairs department.

Native rituals like pow-wows were outlawed, and entire communities relocated.

A commission concluded in 1996 that the program indelibly damaged generations of aboriginal people and subverted their culture, prompting the last of the schools to shut down. It outlined a program of healing and redress, but that has been a long time coming.

For Justice Harry LaForme, the chairman of the newly-formed Indian Residential Schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the truth is now largely known; the real work will be in the reconciliation.

"Today, the idea that you could order the removal of a people from the fabric of a nation is a human-rights violation of the first order," he said during an interview in the commission's new office across from Canada's Parliament.

"In order to move forward, we need to listen to people's voices, to hear the 'whys' behind it, to write the missing chapter that everyone knows is there."

A Mississauga Indian, LaForme was the first aboriginal to sit on an appellate court in Canada, where he has ruled in landmark cases to recognize same-sex marriage and to legalize medicinal marijuana.

The commission, created under the terms of the lawsuit settlement, will hold seven national events and many more local ones involving church leaders, school survivors and government officials.

LaForme says unlike its South African model, it will leave "naming names" to civil courts.

One of the largest shifts in attitude has come from Canada's churches, which ran many of the schools and have since settled lawsuits for physical and sexual abuse.

"The 'good guys,' no matter how kindly or well intentioned, have to confront they were complicit in a system of evil," said Jamie Scott, the United Church of Canada officer for residential schools.

The United Church was one of the first to withdraw from the schools in 1969, and in 1986, it was the first of the churches to apologize.

Between 1991 and 1994, the Oblates of Mary Immaculate from the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and the Presbyterian Church also issued apologies. They have agreed to participate and donate to the commission.

Scott said staff members have their own tales to tell.

"Many of the people who worked in those schools never beat a kid," he said.

"They saw themselves called to help people they saw as marginalized. They have a side of the story, too."
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2008, 01:26:29 PM »
Canada apologises to Indians for years of abuse in schools



« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryPublished Date: 12 June 2008
By ROB GILLIES
IN OTTAWA
CANADA'S prime minister was to offer a public apology yesterday for his country's century-long policy of forcing Canadian Indian children into Christian schools to strip them of their aboriginal culture.
From the 19th century until the 1970s, more than 150,000 children were sent to the state-funded schools. Many were forced to leave their parents' homes, as part of a programme to integrate them into Canadian society, and became victims of physical aADVERTISEMENT nd sexual abuse.

At least 200 former students were invited to Ottawa to witness what native leaders called a pivotal moment for Canada's one million aboriginals, who remain the nation's poorest and most disadvantaged group.

Michael Cachagee was four years old when he was taken from his parents and sent to a school. "The intent was to destroy the Indian," he said. He is one of 80,000 surviving students.

"Aboriginal Canadians have been waiting for a very long time to hear an apology from the Parliament of Canada," Stephen Harper, the prime minister, told MPs this week.

At dawn yesterday, aboriginals set a sacred fire and conducted a sunrise ceremony near parliament, ahead of Mr Harper's announcement.

More than 100 people gathered for a ceremony at the site of a former residential school in Shubenacadie, Nova Scotia, on the east coast.

Mr Cachagee, who won a seat on the floor of the House of Commons to listen, said the apology could not be "shallow and hollow".

He spent 12½ years at three different schools from 1944. "I was beaten. I was put in tubs of hot water. I suffered great pains of hunger. I was force-fed rotten food. They called me all kinds of names," he said.

Phil Fontaine, the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, said: "This is not just about survivors; this is about Canada coming to terms with its past and maturing as a nation."

Canada has offered compensation to those who were taken from their families.




The full article contains 338 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.

1970 is 300 years?!  wow you should hire on with the bradys do their press releases with that kinda spin
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Manedwolf

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2008, 01:33:14 PM »
But why are you answering a bit of fuss about screaming beards with MORE WHITE GUILT?

What are you trying to prove?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2008, 01:46:30 PM »
"By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm
The population of North America prior to the first sustained European contact in 1492 CE is a matter of active debate. Various estimates of the pre-contact Native population of the continental U.S. and Canada range from 1.8 to over 12 million. 4 Over the next four centuries, their numbers were reduced to about 237,000 as Natives were almost wiped out. Author Carmen Bernand estimates that the Native population of what is now Mexico was reduced from 30 million to only 3 million over four decades. 13 Peter Montague estimates that Europeans once ruled over 100 million Natives throughout the Americas.

 
Genocide
Past genocides committed against Native Americans


Sponsored link.




Quotations:
 "The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard. 4
 "This violent corruption needn't define us.... We can say, yes, this happened, and we are ashamed. We repudiate the greed. We recognize and condemn the evil. And we see how the harm has been perpetuated. But, five hundred years later, we intend to mean something else in the world." Barry Lopez. 3
 "By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague 1



Overview:
The population of North America prior to the first sustained European contact in 1492 CE is a matter of active debate. Various estimates of the pre-contact Native population of the continental U.S. and Canada range from 1.8 to over 12 million. 4 Over the next four centuries, their numbers were reduced to about 237,000 as Natives were almost wiped out. Author Carmen Bernand estimates that the Native population of what is now Mexico was reduced from 30 million to only 3 million over four decades. 13 Peter Montague estimates that Europeans once ruled over 100 million Natives throughout the Americas.

European extermination of Natives started with Christopher Columbus' arrival in San Salvador in 1492. Native population dropped dramatically over the next few decades. Some were directly murdered by Europeans. Others died indirectly as a result of contact with introduced diseases for which they had no resistance -- mainly smallpox, influenza, and measles.

Later European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. They used warfare, death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, destruction of their main food supply -- the Buffalo -- and poisoning. Some Europeans actually shot at Indians for target practice. 14

Oppression continued into the 20th century, through actions by governments and religious organizations which systematically destroyed Native culture and religious heritage. One present-day byproduct of this oppression is suicide. Today, Canadian Natives have the highest suicide rate of any identifiable population group in the world. Native North Americans are not far behind.

The genocide against American Natives was one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal campaigns in human history. It started, like all genocides, with the oppressor treating the victims as sub-humans. It continued until almost all Natives were wiped of the face of the earth, along with much of their language, culture and religion.

We believe that:

 Only the mass murder of European Jews by Christians from 306 to 1945 CE was of longer duration.  
 Only the mass murder by the government of the USSR of about 41 million of its citizens  (1917 to 1987), and by the government of China of about 35 million of its citizens  (1949 to 1987) may have involved greater loss of life.

The following essay contains only a small sampling of the horrendous atrocities inflicted on Natives by Europeans.



Christopher Columbus:
"Christopher Columbus has been a genuine American hero since at least 1792 when the Society of St. Tammany in New York City first held a dinner to honor the man and his deeds." Columbus Day has been celebrated as a national holiday since 1934 in honor of this dedicated and courageous explorer. Unfortunately, his character had a dark side.

Columbus described the Arawaks -- the Native people in the West Indies -- as timid, artless, free, and generous. He rewarded them with death and slavery. For his second voyage to the Americas:

"Columbus took the title 'Admiral of the Ocean Sea' and proceeded to unleash a reign of terror unlike anything seen before or since. When he was finished, eight million Arawaks -- virtually the entire native population of Hispaniola -- had been exterminated by torture, murder, forced labor, starvation, disease and despair." 1

A Spanish missionary, Bartolome de las Casas, described eye-witness accounts of mass murder, torture and rape. 2 Author Barry Lopez, summarizing Las Casas' report wrote:

"One day, in front of Las Casas, the Spanish dismembered, beheaded, or raped 3000 people. 'Such inhumanities and barbarisms were committed in my sight,' he says, 'as no age can parallel....' The Spanish cut off the legs of children who ran from them. They poured people full of boiling soap. They made bets as to who, with one sweep of his sword, could cut a person in half. They loosed dogs that 'devoured an Indian like a hog, at first sight, in less than a moment.' They used nursing infants for dog food." 3

The Spaniards eventually went on to conquer Mexico and the southern U.S.






The British:
The British occupied areas from Virginia northward. Hans Koning wrote:

"From the beginning, the Spaniards saw the native Americans as natural slaves, beasts of burden, part of the loot. When working them to death was more economical than treating them somewhat humanely, they worked them to death. The English, on the other hand, had no use for the native peoples. They saw them as devil worshippers, savages who were beyond salvation by the church, and exterminating them increasingly became accepted policy." 5

David E. Stannard wrote:

"Hundreds of Indians were killed in skirmish after skirmish. Other hundreds were killed in successful plots of mass poisoning. They were hunted down by dogs, 'blood-Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives [mastiffs] to seize them.' Their canoes and fishing weirs were smashed, their villages and agricultural fields burned to the ground. Indian peace offers were accepted by the English only until their prisoners were returned; then, having lulled the natives into false security, the colonists returned to the attack. It was the colonists' expressed desire that the Indians be exterminated, rooted 'out from being longer a people upon the face of the earth.' In a single raid the settlers destroyed corn sufficient to feed four thousand people for a year. Starvation and the massacre of non-combatants was becoming the preferred British approach to dealing with the natives." 4



The Americans:
In the early 18th century, the states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Jersey promoted a genocide of their local Natives by imposing a "scalp bounty" on dead Indians. "In 1703, Massachusetts paid 12 pounds for an Indian scalp. By 1723 the price had soared to 100 pounds." 10 Ward Churchill wrote: "Indeed, in many areas it [murdering Indians] became an outright business." 6 This practice of paying a bounty for Indian scalps continued into the 19th century before the public put an end to the practice. 10

In the 18th century, George Washington compared them to wolves, "beasts of prey" and called for their total destruction. 4 In 1814, Andrew Jackson "supervised the mutilation of 800 or more Creek Indian corpses" that his troops had killed.  6

Extermination of all of the surviving natives was urged by the Governor of California officially in 1851. 4 An editorial from the Rocky Mountain News in Denver, CO in 1863; and from the Santa Fe New Mexican in 1863 expressed the same sentiment. 6 In 1867, General William Tecumseh Sherman said, "We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux [Lakotas] even to their extermination: men, women and children." 6

In 1848, before the gold rush in California, that state's native population is estimated to have been 150,000. In 1870, after the gold rush, only about 31,000 were still alive. "Over 60 percent of these indigenous people died from disease introduced by hundreds of thousands of so-called 49ers. However, local tribes were also systematically chased off their lands, marched to missions and reservations, enslaved and brutally massacred." 12 The price paid for a native scalp had dropped as low as $0.25. Native historian, Jack Forbes, wrote:

"The bulk of California's Indians were conquered, and died, in innumerable little episodes rather than in large campaigns. it serves to indict not a group of cruel leaders, or a few squads of rough soldiers, but in effect, an entire people; for ...the conquest of the Native Californian was above all else a popular, mass, enterprise." 11

 
 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2008, 01:50:33 PM »
that your best defense for "300 years ago"
and if you look you will find "good christians" and organized religion played a starring role in these events.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2008, 02:30:44 PM »
The "Indian removal," begun in 1830 by President Andrew Jackson's policy, was implemented to clear land for white settlers. This period, known as the "Trail of Tears," witnessed the removal of the "Five Civilized Tribes": the Choctaw, Creek, Chickasaw, Cherokee, and Seminole. The Cherokee resisted removal, as they had established awritten constitution modeled after the United States model. In 1838 the federal troops evicted the Cherokee under terms of the New Echota Treaty of 1835. Indian historians sometimes describe the result as a "death march." Approximately 4,000 Cherokee died during the removal process. The Seminole were removed from Florida in ships and at the end of the process on railway boxcars, similar to deportations of Jews during the Holocaust. The Indian Removal Acts pushed more than 100,000 native peoples across the Mississippi River.

Forced assimilation for native peoples was first defined through Christianity as the answer to the paganism of the native peoples. A Christian worldview, linked with the sense of predominance of European (Spanish and Portuguese at first) civilization, necessitated an inferior view of the native "other" that could be modestly corrected through religion. Christian-based schooling provided a tool for the process of eradicating native languages. Boarding schools in particular, which lasted through the 1980s, were instrumental in this process. Captain Richard H. Pratt, founder of the Carlisle Indian School in Pennsylvania, observed in 1892 that his school's philosophy was, "Kill the Indian to save the man" (Styron 1997). Boarding and mission schools forbade native children to speak their tribal languages and forced other assimilationist elements upon them: mandatory school uniforms, cutting of hair, and prohibitions on any native traditions. The result was that children who survived such treatment were aliens in two societies, their own as well as the world of the white man. Ward Churchill's writings have demonstrated the social impact, which was illiteracy, inability to work, high rates of alcoholism, chronic diseases, and low life expectancy. Accusations of forced sterilizations of Native American women have been advanced and many have been proven. Natives call this cultural genocide covered by the United Nations Convention.

An associated aspect of genocide of native peoples involves issues related to pollution of the natural environment. As native peoples lived in a tribal manner without large cities (except for the Aztec and Inca cultures that were extinguished earlier), their concern for nature was continual and they saw their own lives in a balance with nature. The earth was also seen as possessing a cosmic significance. The Native American ecological view of the earth sees it as threatened by industrialization and modernization generally, and explains environmental pollution in these terms as well as in the pursuit of personal profit

http://www.deathreference.com/En-Gh/Genocide.html
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2008, 03:40:36 PM »
The problem with ALL monotheistic religions is that they are inherently incompatible with each other. When Christianity in America is tolerant of other religions, it is not because of some innate quality rooted deep in the faith, it is in SPITE of it.

It is generally wiser to allow others to wonder if one is ignorant than to prove it beyond doubt.

Since there are many online and downloadable copies of several translations, there is a remedy at hand.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2008, 05:08:24 PM »
See the religious wars of the post-Reformation era. The instigators were more concerned with politics than religion. Religion became a way to get your army's enlistment numbers up. Fighting for God and Country 'gainst the heretics, y'know.
Cardinal Richelieu of France was, as you can guess, a Catholic. Yet, after France had been stomping away at Hugenots (French Protestants) for decades, he sides with (Protestant) Sweden (and Prot. German states, IIRC) versus Catholic Spain. All because of politics. Didn't want Spain to continue on, ruling Europe as it did.
Religious differences exacerbate cultural differences in many cases. They're also used to stir up the scumalouts of various groups towards mayhem by smart and diabolical politicos.
Every major religious group's got people who are just itching to beat/blow somebody up. Boss Hogg/the Duke of Guise/whoever tells 'em it's their duty to God to wipe out the heretics/infidels. Whoohoo! Rape, loot, and murder, baby!

MicroBalrog

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2008, 05:50:29 PM »
Quote
Of course it has nothing to do with religion.

So, the local representatives of the Christian community, who live there, claim it's a property dispute. I would think they are well-informed of the situation, being legislators and all.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RevDisk

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2008, 06:59:28 PM »
Quote
Of course it has nothing to do with religion.

So, the local representatives of the Christian community, who live there, claim it's a property dispute. I would think they are well-informed of the situation, being legislators and all.

Silly Balrog, reading the article is for keyboard commandos.  Real men know that reality perfectly matches their viewpoint, with no need to actually, yanno, find out what's happening.     grin

I've seen Christians and Muslims commit atrocities.  I'm not 300 years old either.  Seeing kids with 7.62x39 holes through their faces kinda sticks with ya for a bit.  Or a father of three get grenaded because he owned a cafe, happened to be the 'wrong' religion and wouldn't leave.   **** all religious wackos, regardless of what righteousness they try to wrap themselves in.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2008, 10:47:28 PM »
Jfuser:

If you will notice, in another part of my post I suggested that believers actually PAY ATTENTION to the scriptures. In my experience the vast majority of at least Jews and Christians have very little familiarity with the actual books they base their beliefs on.

My New International Version, my great-grandfather's King James Version, and my New American Bible and my New Jerusalem Bible back up my statements.

Exodus 11:7,   15:26
Leviticus 20:27
Judges 2:12
And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

Just the Old Testament? No, think again.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 12:48
Acts 3:23
And it shall come to pass, that  every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Acts 12:23
And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Romans 1:18, 19, 20
1 Corinthians 10:20
2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Galantians 1:8
 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
John 5:19
2 John 1:10

I could go on and on and on but I wont.

Familiarize yourself with the scriptures. All the translations that you can oh so easily download on the internet sing the same tune.

Did I ever say that there was anything wrong with religion being intolerant? No.

Did I ever say you should feel ashamed of your religion, and its teachings? No.

I just want the truth to be known.

No need to get all defensive and start calling me ignorant. I have read several versions of the Old and New Testament several times cover to cover. I have read a printed and online version of the Koran. The Koran does come off as MORE intolerant than the Christian and Jewish books, but that does not make the basis of the Judeo-Christian faith "tolerant" in any way.

And before you come off with the "those quotes are only intolerant if taken out of context" argument, keep in mind that is the same argument that my Muslim friends make. "Oh no, the Koran does not preach intolerance. Some fundamentalists take parts of the Koran out of context and twist it." Yeah, right.


roo_ster

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2008, 05:51:04 AM »
Kyle:

You might note that every NT action you list has God as the means of wrath/destruction/etc. of the non-Christian (or the non-Christian's own actions coming back to bite them).  The only ones you list that has a Christian act in any way are actually non-actions, as in an admonition to not marry a non-Christian (2 Corinthians 6:14).

Your OT example is also in that vein, as well, though elsewhere in the OT there are instructions to the polity of the nation of Israel in the pre-Christian Middle East to do all sorts of things to non-Jews.  Luckily for Christians they are (for the most part) not Jews, the NT supersedes the OT, and they also are not a pre-Christian polity located in the Middle East.



Now, how does God instruct Christians to react to non-Christians when they are rejected and reviled by them?  Christians have some rather explicit instructions:
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Luke 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

The common theme is to let God mete out any punishment on non-Christians for rejecting Christ.



A Christian's relationship to his government/polity are also addressed rather explicitly in Matthew:
22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give
tribute unto Caesar, or not?  22:18 But Jesus perceived their
wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?  22:19 Shew me
the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render
therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the
things that are God's.

Mark & Luke have similar passages instructing the Christian to live lawfully under the authorities God has seen fit to appoint.

Later on, Paul puts the instructions into practice:
Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Acts 25:12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.



To quote myself from an earlier post:
"Christianity becoming more amenable to secular government and easier to live with if you are not a Christian is an example of Christians hewing more closely to Christianity's founder and documents."

Particular examples such as RevDisk's are rather obvious deviations from the instructions given in the NT.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2008, 07:14:57 AM »
IN the meanwhile, there is a riot of screaming beards in Jerusalem today.

Jewish screaming beards, that is, complaining of the arrest of one of their own by the police.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

richyoung

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2008, 08:59:29 AM »
Ward Churchill as a source?!?!?  Are you going to quote Clifford Irving or Konrad Kujau next?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2008, 09:03:57 AM »
churchhillis one of many sourses.  generally means one can't refute the facts when they go after one of sources.   there are some sites that challenge the scope of his numbers  but even they only go to say it wasn't quite as bad as he paints it. feel free to reute any facts   if you can
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

richyoung

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2008, 12:41:47 PM »
churchhillis one of many sourses.  generally means one can't refute the facts when they go after one of sources.   there are some sites that challenge the scope of his numbers  but even they only go to say it wasn't quite as bad as he paints it. feel free to reute any facts   if you can

Ward Churchill is a known plaigerist, serial liar, and a self-declared pseudo-Native American with an agenda.  The burden of proof is on the one making the assertions, and Mr. Churchill doesn't cut it, any mor ethan Dan Rather's "The proof is forged but the story is true" crap did.  Perhaps you might want to look at what has happened to every one ELSE'S aboriginal population - oops - YOU CAN'T.  Because there AREN'T ANY - they are DEAD.  To include the Caucasian residents of the Americas that were wiped out by the arriving Asiatics.  The American "Indian", Australian aboriginies, and to a lesser extent, the Ainue of Japan are exceptions  to the rule of total extinction practiced by... everyone.  Seen any Neandthals outside of insurance commercials?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2008, 12:51:40 PM »
was that offered to refute the events depicted?  the indian schools operated into the 1980's  we'll not touch on the missing millions, or was it billions, that the courts seem to feel the us has misplaced that belong to the indians
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

richyoung

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2008, 01:01:26 PM »
was that offered to refute the events depicted?  the indian schools operated into the 1980's  we'll not touch on the missing millions, or was it billions, that the courts seem to feel the us has misplaced that belong to the indians

No refutation or appology needed.  Life is full of winners and losers.  Technically backward societies tend to be losers.  Everyone seems to think "might makes right" in the case of the War of Northern Aggression, incorrectly known as the Civil War - Sherman is a hero for doing to Georgians exactly what was done to the American Indian, in some cases by him as well.  Can't have it both ways...  either he's a war criminal - or saint.  In both cases.   Either its perfectly OK for the Russians to do to THEIR Georgians what the US did to ITS Georgians, or they are both wrong.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2008, 01:08:15 PM »

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Tim Giago| BIO | I'M A FAN OF THIS BLOGGER
The Dark Legacy of the Indian Boarding Schools
Posted April 1, 2007 | 01:47 PM (EST)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read More: Catholic Church, California, South Dakota , Breaking Politics News

         

It is not in the least bit uncommon for the thousands of Native Americans pushed through the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Church operated boarding schools for more than 100 years, to have suppressed memories.

I wrote a book of poetry that was published in 1977, called The Aboriginal Sin. A mainstream publisher would never have published the book, but the only Native American publishing house in the Nation, The Indian Historian Press, Inc., instead published it. The book is now many years out of print.

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Buzz up!on Yahoo!A Cahuilla Indian man from California, Rupert Costo, a man who had been a product of an Indian mission boarding school, read the packet of poems I had written in the 1950s, poems I wrote whenever I had this deep feeling of depression related to my 10 years at a Catholic Indian mission boarding school on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. As editor of the Indian Historian Press, Inc., he said to me, "These poems must be published."

A young reporter working for the Albuquerque Journal by the last name of Talley did a book review for that newspaper. When she called the mission school I had attended, Holy Rosary Mission, she was told by one priest that I had never gone to school there and by another that I had only gone to school there for six months.

These priests could lie with a straight face because since I had been a student there the school had changed its name to Red Cloud Indian School. I had several of my former classmates write affidavits swearing that I had indeed attended Holy Rosary Mission. One former student, Gerald Clifford, now deceased, wrote, "I definitely remember Tim as a student at HRM during most of my school days there and although he may not have attended Red Cloud Indian School, he did attend Holy Rosary Mission." Thank goodness my family had saved many of the photographs taken of me while I was a student there because when I visited the mission school after the book came out, all of my photos had mysteriously vanished.

I can understand why the Catholic Church and its servants at Holy Rosary Mission would deny my very existence. It was because I had opened a can of worms and they were trying to stuff them back into the can. They were afraid of the notoriety and of the possibility of losing the thousands of dollars they solicited every day for the school. They were also in denial that any abuses had ever taken place at the mission school. My book of poetry exposed all of that.

Many former students wrote or called me to tell my how much they enjoyed the book and how much it had helped them to face their own demons. Now remember, this was 30 years ago, long before the national scandals about the abuse of children by Catholic priests ever hit the mainstream headlines. I recently wrote a book, Children Left Behind, and added the poems from The Aboriginal Sin into the book because I felt that they were a vital part of my life's experiences at the boarding school. I also included many of the photographs of me while I was a student at the school so that the Catholic Church would have a hard time denying my presence at the school.

Two months ago, at a book signing, I spoke to about 250 people at the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center in Albuquerque. I noticed some of the elderly Indian women dabbing at their eyes during my talk. When I was done I took questions from the audience. A very elderly Indian man, with the help of his niece, stood up and leaned on his cane.

The elderly man was from the Jicarilla Apache Reservation in Northwestern New Mexico. He began his question with, "I went to a mission boarding school," and then he stopped speaking. Tears began rolling down his face and he apologized to me for crying. But he could not ask the question he wanted to ask because he was too overcome with grief.

I understand how this Jicarilla Apache man felt because when I speak about the time my eight year old sister, along with dozens of Lakota girls the same age, was raped at the mission school by a pedophile, I often get choked up, but I continue because I want people to know the horrible damage done to Indian children by the boarding schools over the more than 100 years they existed. I want people to know how we were beaten with leather straps, shorn of our hair, and used as child slave-laborers at these boarding schools.

Thousands of former boarding school students, now in their old age, experienced and witnessed the many abuses. The terrible impact of those days still haunt them and that is why I am glad that I have been able get many of them to unbind their years of suppression. When they start to speak, hesitantly at first, they soon get into the emotions of it and it seems that the floodgates are opened for the first time in many years, and the words and tears flow easily.

My younger sister told me about her abuse on her deathbed and I, along with her three children, finally understood why she had become a violent, alcoholic woman for so much of her life. She died angry at the world and all alone. If only she had spoken sooner maybe we could have helped her.

My book and my lectures are now opening many of the Native minds that have forced out these terrible memories all of these years. Many of the problems of alcoholism and drug abuse now prevalent in Indian country can be traced back to the physical, emotional and sexual abuse suffered at the hands of our keepers in the BIA and mission boarding schools.

As we, the Indian people, revive the memories of those dreadful days, perhaps the process of healing can now begin.




your tax dollats at work
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I