Author Topic: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct  (Read 12272 times)

Bogie

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2023, 10:33:15 PM »
And... Did you notice that your well-paid teachers didn't want you to think for yourself, but instead wished to have you parrot what they had to say?
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Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2023, 10:41:57 PM »
Let's step back a moment.  As far as I can tell you've offered three fundamental assertions confused by contradictory and confusing side quests.  Frankly, your apparent weaknesses in writing and the way you improperly phrase things in such a way that you are saying something very different than you claim to intend has repeatedly derailed the discussion.

Regardless, the three fundamental assertions I've gathered are:
1. Law does not perfectly define or control human action.
This is really the only element for which you have provided supporting arguments.  I mostly agree with it, but I'd note that in many cases human action does tend to follow certain paths, especially when confronted with extremes such as threat of force ... which is typically the enforcement mechanism for law.  So this is literally true, but in practice often not as clear-cut.

2. Law is malicious, evil, hateful, rapacious and doubleplus ungood.
Again, there is no real support for this assertion, but I'll agree partially.  Like all exercise of power, law has the capacity to be misused and abused.  On the other hand, law has the capacity of carrying forward historical practices that worked well.  Law has the ability to (imperfectly) protect people, to set guiderails on their behavior and to punish people who do evil.  The "law=EVIL" schtick is absolutely comically lacking in nuance.  As has been noted, there are plenty of places where law does not exist.  I do not choose to relocate to those places with my family.

3. If people become educated by Bosco1 they will become as peaceful as lambs and there will be nothing but rainbows and buttercups and daisies.
Hogwash.  Utter hogwash.  Your only defense for this assertion was the old "But, but, but, real communism responsible anarchy has never been tried!"

So, in short, the Sartre deviation is really a non-issue as Sartre doesn't progress your argument past the first point.  You've made two unsupported assertions which I largely disagree with.  Do you think I'm missing something important?
With 3. you are being totally absurd, and, as you repeatedly do to me, employ arguments by extension (a type of logical fallacy), whereby you put me out on a limb and saw it off!
With 2. you radically exaggerate and extend what I have said. I said law is just a pursuit of money.
With 1. you are correct.
I radically respect and appreciate your concern and extreme effort. Upon reflection I now realize that I am radically off the wall here. I am attempting to overthrow the law at the theoretical level! Which is a radically idiosyncratic thing to do, and, I believe I have done it.
It is not fair of me to expect you to so rapidly comprehend Sartre's theory of origin of human action. I am undertaking a strange and new thing here and, should not be suprised to be scorned and ridiculed.

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2023, 10:46:52 PM »
And... Did you notice that your well-paid teachers didn't want you to think for yourself, but instead wished to have you parrot what they had to say?
No, not at all. One is constantly writing papers, which requires independent thinking!

Ron

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2023, 10:49:05 PM »
What light do you have to shed on the nature of being?

Other than advocating the dissolution of our form of government and culture what exactly is the purpose behind your endeavor in this quite little corner of the internet?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2023, 10:51:05 PM »
Ever notice that a whole bunch of "academics" seem to think that theory trumps experience? And then refuse to believe differently when presented with different evidence...
 
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Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2023, 10:55:07 PM »
Who here is arguing that law is determinative of human conduct?
Perhaps you have never been in a courtroom and heard a judge say he is determined by
law?
It is a tacit presumption that law punishes persons for not being determined not to act on such and such a wise by law.

Bogie

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2023, 11:01:29 PM »
So you failed to notice...
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zxcvbob

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2023, 11:13:10 PM »
Quote
This is not attempted to be a slight, but is English a second language for you?

I was beginning to wonder that too.

Why can't you simply allow me the freedom to be who I am and to say what I say, without questioning each and every thing I write!?  You are hypercritical. No, English is not a second language. You clearly have not mastered "Being and Nothingness" and, hence, are not in a position to constantly claim I am misrepresenting the content thereof, and on and on about my lack of understanding of Sartre, while, you have no understanding at all. This is getting tiresome, and, the membership here keeps on and on exhibiting a profound bigoted ignorance...

Because that's what we do here, especially in the politics forum.  Would you rather everyone just ignore you?  No one here has censored you or banned you (which is well within the powers of several people in this thread), and several folks have engaged you in debate.
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Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2023, 11:16:06 PM »
What light do you have to shed on the nature of being?

Other than advocating the dissolution of our form of government and culture what exactly is the purpose behind your endeavor in this quite little corner of the internet?
Our being, i.e., human being, has no "nature". We are nothingnesses, i.e., my consciousness is nothingness constantly engaged in what is not. At this instant I am imagining what I should say to you next, which now is not. I am continually making nots into extants...
Our gov't and culture are not suddenly going to go poof! My purpose here is to engage in a dialectic, which is how we will compose/realize a possible future.

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2023, 11:20:24 PM »
So you failed to notice...
Yes, did not see that.

Brad Johnson

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2023, 11:26:27 PM »
Our being, i.e., human being, has no "nature". We are nothingnesses, i.e., my consciousness is nothingness constantly engaged in what is not. At this instant I am imagining what I should say to you next, which now is not. I am continually making nots into extants....

Ah, metaphysics - the art of questioning everything, answering nothing, and spouting useless jargon in lieu of cogent thought.

Brad
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Hawkmoon

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2023, 11:28:58 PM »
I am attempting to overthrow the law at the theoretical level! Which is a radically idiosyncratic thing to do, and, I believe I have done it.

I disagree.
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Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2023, 11:35:53 PM »
I disagree.
So, then, let me know precisely why you disagree...

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #163 on: January 25, 2023, 11:41:14 PM »
Ah, metaphysics - the art of questioning everything, answering nothing, and spouting useless jargon in lieu of cogent thought.

Brad
So, then, lay some cogent thought on us man...

Perd Hapley

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2023, 12:17:37 AM »
Bosco, I think the rest of us are put off, because you seem to be offended, even angry, that no one else here values Sartre's insights the way you do. We don't feel we're obliged to.

For what it's worth, I claim no knowledge of Sartre, either to praise or condemn him. As for his theories about the origin of human acts, I think I have a fairly good grasp of that (and I'm pretty sure law is only part of that), so I don't think I want to prioritize the time or mental effort to look at alternative views. I suppose that could change, but I doubt it.
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JN01

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #165 on: January 26, 2023, 01:23:54 AM »
I'm confused, can someone explain how this theory fits in with Dianetics?

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #166 on: January 26, 2023, 06:06:39 AM »
Bosco, I think the rest of us are put off, because you seem to be offended, even angry, that no one else here values Sartre's insights the way you do. We don't feel we're obliged to.

For what it's worth, I claim no knowledge of Sartre, either to praise or condemn him. As for his theories about the origin of human acts, I think I have a fairly good grasp of that (and I'm pretty sure law is only part of that), so I don't think I want to prioritize the time or mental effort to look at alternative views. I suppose that could change, but I doubt it.
Perd;
I did not get angered because others here do not value Sartre's insights. What really got me was the way one of your administrative police types accused me of not understanding what an argumentum ad hominem state of affairs is, and, accused me of misusing said fallacy, in an attempt to possibly make some sort of trouble for me. And, the persons doing the fallacious assertions, adamantly denying their misstep, was really too very bizarre. 


Ron

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2023, 06:10:10 AM »
Perd;
I did not get angered because others here do not value Sartre's insights. What really got me was the way one of your administrative police types accused me of not understanding what an argumentum ad hominem state of affairs is, and, accused me of misusing said fallacy, in an attempt to possibly make some sort of trouble for me. And, the persons doing the fallacious assertions, adamantly denying their misstep, was really too very bizarre.

Don't get upset, really, it was nothing.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #168 on: January 26, 2023, 07:42:24 AM »
With 3. you are being totally absurd, and, as you repeatedly do to me, employ arguments by extension (a type of logical fallacy), whereby you put me out on a limb and saw it off!
Nope.  Sure, I'm gently mocking your silly position, but I've pretty accurately represented what you've said.  Somewhat amusingly, it might be true that: What Bosco1 Means is Not Determinative of What he Says.

But here, let me show you how I got there.  When asked for an alternative to law, your proposal was:
First we should educate everyone to the point of understanding how human acts actually originate, which is being reflectively free, which will raise everyone's natural dignity/nobility and effect a calm.  The final totalization of what civilization can be can only be the resultant of this type of dialogic interaction...
When I pointed out that not everyone might be incapable or unwilling to control themselves, or might want to take advantage of those weaker than them, you said:
I said we should start by rendering all persons as reflectively free. Then all of the negative behaviors could well intensify, and, so would reactions thereto...perhaps erasing the ignoble ones via grassroots violence...However, I think raising all persons up to reflective freedom will ennoble and calm everyone.
I pointed out that this was simply self-defense and that not everyone is capable of effective self defense, and that law itself grew from that fact, your response was:
You predict all of this dire possibility, while, all the while, we have collectively have never been reflectively free, and, hence, have no true idea what will be.
If you feel like you've got a better way of phrasing Bosco1 Assertion #3 then please do so.

With 2. you radically exaggerate and extend what I have said. I said law is just a pursuit of money.
Do you believe "law is just a pursuit of money" is either a universal truth or represents your complete understanding of law?  Does law serve any positive purpose?  Is the overthrow of law likely to have any foreseeable negative consequences?  Do laws - or the possible consequences for their violation - ever influence human behavior?

You are starting with a relatively minor but accurate point (people can choose to disobey law) but after that point you have failed to demonstrate any of your pronouncements.

With 1. you are correct.
Great.  That's a starting point.

With the understanding that you are capable of making decisions independent of your situation, would you agree that often your decisions are made in light of, and with respect to your situation?  Let's set aside law for the moment and use the example of hunger that I brought up earlier.  Do you ever take your hunger into consideration when deciding whether or not to eat?  Obviously you are capable of choosing to fast and would theoretically be capable of choosing to starve yourself, but it seems obvious that some of the elements that go into choosing to eat are external to your will.

There is no conflict with Sartre's theory of existential freedom to note that all decisions we make are shaped, impacted, and influenced by (not to say determined by) circumstances and situations even if those decisions are not defined by circumstance and situation.  Would you agree?

Upon reflection I now realize that I am radically off the wall here.
This is something that you and I can agree on unreservedly.

I am attempting to overthrow the law at the theoretical level! Which is a radically idiosyncratic thing to do, and, I believe I have done it.
I cannot argue whether or not you have succeeded in doing this, but I can say with certainty that you have utterly failed to demonstrate it here.  Your arguments are poorly and carelessly worded, your understanding of the concepts in question appears narrow and without nuance, and you regularly make wild and illogical leaps which are not supported by what little you have shown.

If you want to take a shot at buttressing and fleshing out your arguments (especially for Bosco1 Assertions #2 and #3) I'd be interested to see what you have to say.

Perd Hapley

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #169 on: January 26, 2023, 07:44:41 AM »
Perd;
I did not get angered because others here do not value Sartre's insights. What really got me was the way one of your administrative police types accused me of not understanding what an argumentum ad hominem state of affairs is, and, accused me of misusing said fallacy, in an attempt to possibly make some sort of trouble for me. And, the persons doing the fallacious assertions, adamantly denying their misstep, was really too very bizarre.

Now you're accusing me of not understanding what you said. You are clearly angered by others' failure to adore Sartre. It may help you to admit this to yourself, and examine whether your attitude is correct.

Also, you are wrong about the nature of ad hominem.
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lee n. field

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #170 on: January 26, 2023, 08:03:49 AM »
Quote
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Ben

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #171 on: January 26, 2023, 08:07:14 AM »
Perd;
I did not get angered because others here do not value Sartre's insights. What really got me was the way one of your administrative police types accused me of not understanding what an argumentum ad hominem state of affairs is, and, accused me of misusing said fallacy, in an attempt to possibly make some sort of trouble for me. And, the persons doing the fallacious assertions, adamantly denying their misstep, was really too very bizarre.

What's bizarre is that you continue to misuse "ad hominem" as a way to avoid any critiques of your fallacious theory. You didn't come here to discuss anything. You came here to demand that we all bow to your "brilliance". After having been banned for doing the same thing on another forum. If all you can ever do is reply "AD HOMINEM!!!", then your thesis is weak.
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dogmush

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #172 on: January 26, 2023, 08:48:37 AM »
The impressive of this thread is that Bosco1 took a thesis that falls squarely into the "No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock" category (The law does not determine human actions), and managed through heretofore rarely seen levels of obtuse writing to get us to spend 7 odd pages discussing a blindingly obvious premise.

Hawkmoon

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #173 on: January 26, 2023, 09:04:10 AM »
Quote from: Hawkmoon
I disagree.

So, then, let me know precisely why you disagree...

Okay. The statement with which I disagreed was:

Quote from: Bosco1
I am attempting to overthrow the law at the theoretical level! Which is a radically idiosyncratic thing to do, and, I believe I have done it.
1. You may believe that you have succeeded in overthrowing the law at a theoretical level (whatever that means). I do not think you have accomplished any such thing.

2. If you really parse the language, "attempting" to do something essentially implies and conveys failure.  If I say "I attempted to lift my house off its foundation," what is unsaid is that I was not successful. Had I been successful, I would have simply said, "I lifted my house off its foundation."

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230RN

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #174 on: January 26, 2023, 10:44:56 AM »
When are we going to realize we are being suckered?

Bosco1 is just a clever jokester.

Terry, 230RN


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