Bottled-water purchase leads to night in jail for UVa student

[De Selby]

you might find some of those guys don't play well with others.  in the real world

And why don't they play well with others?  Maybe because alcohol police have SWAT teams to arrest them for tax crimes.  

[Stand_watie]

you might find some of those guys don't play well with others.  in the real world

All the more reason for the ABC people to be appropriately uniformed and so prevent being killed by a person defending themselves. If I'm on the grand jury for a murder/manslaughter charge against a person defending themself in those circumstances I'm voting to no bill.

[De Selby]

The "crime" is more on the part of the store if they sold alcohol to a minor.

Has suspicion of misdemeanor MIP become grounds for a felony level apprehension  

The state Alcoholic Beverage Control agents sound like a bunch of mall ninjas to me  

Come on, haven't you seen the "Untouchables"?  It's a jungle out there!

[Stand_watie]

...The state Alcoholic Beverage Control agents sound like a bunch of mall ninjas to me  

This. These jokers are out of control in Texas too. It wasn't until they went after a gay bar that they got their patties smacked.

[Stand_watie]

Must be some sort of anomaly in the time space continuim that I am agreeing 100% with CSD on something 

with CSD with De Selby

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its amusing in a way.  guys who stay armed in their own homes think folks arresting fools should do it unarmed.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/3743-agent-garnett-e-dick-dabney
http://www.nllea.org/documents/officermemorial.pdf

[AZRedhawk44]

its amusing in a way.  guys who stay armed in their own homes think folks arresting fools should do it unarmed.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/3743-agent-garnett-e-dick-dabney
http://www.nllea.org/documents/officermemorial.pdf

No one here is arguing unarmed.

We're arguing against plainclothes, clandestine shock-arrest techniques.

[Stand_watie]

its amusing in a way.  guys who stay armed in their own homes think folks arresting fools should do it unarmed.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/3743-agent-garnett-e-dick-dabney
http://www.nllea.org/documents/officermemorial.pdf

Funny you use cops getting killed to argue in favor of cops using methods of arrest that are likely to get them killed or cause them to wrongly kill innocents.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

No one here is arguing unarmed.

We're arguing against plainclothes, clandestine shock-arrest techniques.

you'd be shocked.  underage folks don't buy in front of a uniformed cop often. nor do store clerks sell ilegally

[Stand_watie]

you'd be shocked.  underage folks don't buy in front of a uniformed cop often. nor do store clerks sell ilegally

So that authorizes deliberately initiating deadly force conduct against a m.i.p. suspect?

[Stand_watie]

... Police say one of the agents jumped on the hood of her car. She says one drew a gun.

And no mistake about it, that is what the agent jumping on the hood was trying to do. Justify the agent with the drawn gun killing the m.i.p suspect.

Michigan's supreme court got rid of this vile tactic more than twenty years ago.

[roo_ster]

you'd be shocked.  underage folks don't buy in front of a uniformed cop often. nor do store clerks sell ilegally

And it is a bad thing if a crime is prevented by an overt LEO presence?  Is this not a Good Thing^TM

I am not all that keen on plain clothed LEOs.  We lose the crime prevention effect of obvious LEO presence.  Prevention beats enforcement & incarceration in my book.

And, yes, I would prefer if fewer gov't agents were armed and/or more poorly armed than the general population.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And it is a bad thing if a crime is prevented by an overt LEO presence?  Is this not a Good Thing^TM

I am not all that keen on plain clothed LEOs.  We lose the crime prevention effect of obvious LEO presence.  Prevention beats enforcement & incarceration in my book.

And, yes, I would prefer if fewer gov't agents were armed and/or more poorly armed than the general population.

under cover stings are quite preventitive. a few store clerks in cuffs make the others quite conscientious about carding folks.  and va abc is quite effecent. they got smacked in 81 for using a police cadet to buy. judge looked at her said "she looks 25 to me!" and threw out the cases

[Hawkmoon]

Even the girl acknowledged they had badges out. And that she "grazed" them with her vehicle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

I possess several badges.

One is actually official identification.

One is a replica of Don Johnson's Miami Vice badge.

One is a replica of Jack Webbs' Dragnet badge.

Both of the latter two would look pretty official from ten feet away in a dark parking lot at 10:30 p.m. Neither of them gives me any authority to detain or even stop anyone. IMHO the girls were in the right and the revenooers were totally in the wrong.

[dogmush]

Different strokes for different criminals.

Coed=/= Moonshiner.


IF we agree that it's worth shooting people to stop illegal stills (big if) then fine, use the tac team in the backwoods of Kentucky.  That girl wasn't hiding a sawed off Saiga in her Vicky's Pink! sweats.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Different strokes for different criminals.

Coed=/= Moonshiner.


IF we agree that it's worth shooting people to stop illegal stills (big if) then fine, use the tac team in the backwoods of Kentucky.  That girl wasn't hiding a sawed off Saiga in her Vicky's Pink! sweats.

if you read that list of dead agents several were killed doing grocery store arrests just like this one,  heck regular cops mighta shot the girl for "grazing" the other 2 agents.

[Doggy Daddy]

if you read that list of dead agents several were killed doing grocery store arrests just like this one,  heck regular cops mighta shot the girl for "grazing" the other 2 agents.

Is that statement really supposed to be in support of the cops' actions and tactics?? 

[MechAg94]

if you read that list of dead agents several were killed doing grocery store arrests just like this one,  heck regular cops mighta shot the girl for "grazing" the other 2 agents.

Except that regular uniformed cops with a squad car in sight, would have created a completely different reaction in this case.  There would be no doubt she was dealing with law enforcement.  She probably would not have panicked.  If she still tries to run, then she would get very little sympathy. 

I understand that undercover cops do stings, but it doesn't take an army to have a couple marked cars with uniformed cops/agents nearby to initiate the actual arrest.  

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Except that regular uniformed cops with a squad car in sight, would have created a completely different reaction in this case.  There would be no doubt she was dealing with law enforcement.  She probably would not have panicked.  If she still tries to run, then she would get very little sympathy. 

I understand that undercover cops do stings, but it doesn't take an army to have a couple marked cars with uniformed cops/agents nearby to initiate the actual arrest.  

you mean like a car with lights?

[HankB]

I possess several badges.

One is actually official identification.

One is a replica of Don Johnson's Miami Vice badge.

One is a replica of Jack Webbs' Dragnet badge.

Both of the latter two would look pretty official from ten feet away in a dark parking lot at 10:30 p.m. Neither of them gives me any authority to detain or even stop anyone. IMHO the girls were in the right and the revenooers were totally in the wrong.

I used to carry a badge quite often.

I had at least two - one said something like "Dick Tracy Junior G-Man" and the other simply said "Marshall."

I haven't seen either since I was around 8 years old . . . both were shiny and unless you looked at them closely, realistic.

[Gowen]

Out in the wild wild west of Nevada, plain clothes cops only go after the sales clerks.  They use a <21yo to make the sale then bust the clerk.  We don't stinking care about the teeny boppers drinking, unless they get in a car accident and die.

[Azrael256]

What's the PC for the stop?  Carrying a 12pk of water doesn't cut it.  If the ABC agents can't tell beer from water, they need to be fired for incompetence.  So the PC is either incompetence or lying.  Neither one flies in court.  Obviously.

Hopefully this will serve to rein in these mall ninjas before they get more than they can handle.  If they keep that up, they'll get themselves there quickly.

[BlueStarLizzard]

if you read that list of dead agents several were killed doing grocery store arrests just like this one,  heck regular cops mighta shot the girl for "grazing" the other 2 agents.

Then perhaps they ought to change their tactics for apprehending a potential suspect.

Seriously, a "Hi, I'm an ABC agent and I think you have booze in your bag, can I please look?" is probably going to go a lot further them shouting, drawing guns and scaring the pee out of a soriety ditz.

[dogmush]

if you read that list of dead agents several were killed doing grocery store arrests just like this one,  heck regular cops mighta shot the girl for "grazing" the other 2 agents.

Citation needed.

I have yet to hear of a coed (or even coed aged girl) capping an ABC agent in the parking lot. A prudent LEO adjust tactics based on who his target is.

[Stand_watie]

Is that statement really supposed to be in support of the cops' actions and tactics?? 

Far more cops are killed by bad/drunk/distracted drivers, using his logic he'd have cops with .50 machine guns machine gunning bad/drunk/distracted drivers to pull them over.