Bottled-water purchase leads to night in jail for UVa student

[French G.]

Also the dynamic of the town in question. There is plenty of non-taxed chemistry happening down at Friendship Court subsidized housing and other nearby areas but the college kids don't shoot back and have more of daddy's money to pay the fine, any fine, as long as you don't leave them with a screwed up record that will bar them from the post college gravy train.

[Hawkmoon]

if you read that list of dead agents several were killed doing grocery store arrests just like this one,  heck regular cops mighta shot the girl for "grazing" the other 2 agents.

I'd say if they used tactics such as in the case under discussion, they deserved to be killed.

Sorry if that's harsh, but people who play stupid games win stupid prizes.

[gunsmith]

you can design your own badge by the same people that make real ones.
http://www.galls.com/CGBCPAGE?PMPAGE=custombadges

[RevDisk]

Color me surprised that Revenuers used bad judgement.  Yep, some folks running stills can get a touch touchy. The average clerk or minor?  Not so much. Tries to run?  Grab license plate number. Wave badge and tell them you will call  local law enforcement if they try to run. Good luck out running an arrest warrant.

Folks not wearing uniforms without obviously marked cars should have it as part of their training that folks may not believe they are actually law enforcement. Especially as colleges are high crime areas, often with law enforcement actively avoiding any real crimes to keep crime stats low.

Shooting a coed is very expensive.  The family will sue, and your department will settle for millions, even if your actions are technically correct.  Even a moderately good lawyer could get an easy 5-15 mil settlement for a college female shot while buying water.  by unmarked folks?  If she was attractive, had a moderately interesting sob story, parents have loot, etc...  That number goes up.

[Tallpine]

Folks not wearing uniforms without obviously marked cars should have it as part of their training that folks may not believe they are actually law enforcement.

You would think ... 

[just Warren]

They should be forced to dress in clown suits topped with the Keystone Cops old-school hat-helmet.

[brimic]

Different strokes for different criminals.

Coed=/= Moonshiner.


IF we agree that it's worth shooting people to stop illegal stills (big if) then fine, use the tac team in the backwoods of Kentucky.  That girl wasn't hiding a sawed off Saiga in her Vicky's Pink! sweats.

Ever wonder why the ATF usually only goes after people who make mistakes with their bound books and not MS-13 and other gangs that are importing heavy weaponry from central America?
Its because gun shop owners are more or less law abiding and don't kill ATF agents.
Same thing in this case- a bunch of useless cowards going after the low hanging, no risk fruit with overwhelming force.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry when reading what kind of petty tyrannies others are willing to not only put up with but defend. I remember when I was 6-7 years old and my grandfather, who ran a tavern, would send me down to the liquor store with my wagon, a note and an envelope full of cash to pick up stuff to stock his bar, and noone in town would ever bat an eye.

[French G.]

And all the little girls hung out at your wagon.

[griz]

If ever there was proof that having a badge over your civilian clothes doesn't look enough like "real" law enforcement, this is it.  She called 911 to report them, and pulled over for a car with lights, immediately after clearing the site of what she viewed (correctly if you think about it) as an attack.  Why couldn't the real cop car have been used if finding out whether it was water or beer was such a pressing matter?

I'm still stunned that underage drinking is such a huge problem that we need teams of agents to check people for the mere possibility.

[Tallpine]

If ever there was proof that having a badge over your civilian clothes doesn't look enough like "real" law enforcement, this is it.  She called 911 to report them, and pulled over for a car with lights, immediately after clearing the site of what she viewed (correctly if you think about it) as an attack.  Why couldn't the real cop car have been used if finding out whether it was water or beer was such a pressing matter?

I'm still stunned that underage drinking is such a huge problem that we need teams of agents to check people for the mere possibility.

Because the malls aren't hiring ? 

[T.O.M.]

I know that CS&D and I are usually the LEO defenders around here, but I do have to agree that there is a serious lack of identification going on here.  When I was prosecuting and went out with LEOs for business, and I was armed, I always wore a "raid jacket" I had made.  Blue with bright yellow lettering that said POLICE on the front and back, with my name and title on the front under a printed badge.  I feared being shot by mistake by an overzealous officer who didn't know me and saw a guy with a gun.  I think I paid about $50 for the jacket.  Wonder how bad these guys's budget is that they can't afford something similar...

And, gotta add a +1 to posts above that question the need to respond to a case of beer with a drawn weapon, especially when it turns out to be bottled water, and more importantly to me, when there's no proof that a crime has even occurred until the age of the girl was ascertained. 

Bad LEO work all around on this one.  Virginia will probably be writing a check in the near future...

[French G.]

Listen to the Boston PD recordings of the bomber search, they mandated that all PC officers be with a uniform to avoid complications. Even cops don't believe PC cops. Ayoob has a few uniform shoots PC stories too in his lethal force columns.

[Balog]

If we don't have plain clothes cops doing heavily armed felony takedowns on sorority girls carrying bottled water the terrorists win.

Also, it really does amuse me the things CSD will defend. You really have to wonder if he'd react the same way if one of his girls got jumped by a bunch of thugs for carrying water.

[HankB]

. . . When I was prosecuting and went out with LEOs for business, and I was armed, I always wore a "raid jacket" I had made.  Blue with bright yellow lettering that said POLICE on the front and back, with my name and title on the front under a printed badge. . . .

If you had one made, ANYONE could have one made. From your post I assume you were with uniformed LEOs which greatly aids in identification, but it might not have been such a good idea to go out on a raid by yourself.

There have been a number of instances here in TX of bad guys wearing "POLICE" lettered clothing invading a home . . . and subsequently robbing the folks. AND there have been a few instances of people in unmarked cars with lights they bought somewhere making traffic stops, with negative results for the drivers. (Usually young women.)

As for the situation in the OP . . . some lunatic damages my car while jumping on the hood while other screaming lunatics rush me . . . NONE of them clearly identifiable as police . . . things will not go well for them.

[T.O.M.]

If you had one made, ANYONE could have one made. From your post I assume you were with uniformed LEOs which greatly aids in identification, but it might not have been such a good idea to go out on a raid by yourself.
.

I had it made at a police supply company nearby, and had to order it official.  And, I never went out on anything alone, much less a raid.  I'm a lawyer, not Chuck Norris.   

[BlueStarLizzard]

If you had one made, ANYONE could have one made. From your post I assume you were with uniformed LEOs which greatly aids in identification, but it might not have been such a good idea to go out on a raid by yourself.

There have been a number of instances here in TX of bad guys wearing "POLICE" lettered clothing invading a home . . . and subsequently robbing the folks. AND there have been a few instances of people in unmarked cars with lights they bought somewhere making traffic stops, with negative results for the drivers. (Usually young women.)

As for the situation in the OP . . . some lunatic damages my car while jumping on the hood while other screaming lunatics rush me . . . NONE of them clearly identifiable as police . . . things will not go well for them.

First. Any doubt of weither or not the officer is real can be dealt with rather quickly in the days of cell phones. You don't think he's legit, you are supposed to call 911 and the dispatures will check.
From what I understand, they don't mind doing this all that much, since LEOs generally get nasty over imposters and want to catch them.

Secondly, badges and vest are all well and good, but none of it's worth all the tea in china if it doesn't come with a proffessional demenor and the ability to properly assess a situation and deal with it appropraitly.

Like I said earlier, all they needed to do was ask for ID and to see the contents of the bag. Guns drawn and yelling isn't the correct responce in the very open parking lot of a high end grocery store that get's plenty of traffic even that time of night. (again, I know that shopping center. Upscalish and never deserted or all that sketchy, even at night)

[roo_ster]

First. Any doubt of weither or not the officer is real can be dealt with rather quickly in the days of cell phones. You don't think he's legit, you are supposed to call 911 and the dispatures will check.
From what I understand, they don't mind doing this all that much, since LEOs generally get nasty over imposters and want to catch them.

Secondly, badges and vest are all well and good, but none of it's worth all the tea in china if it doesn't come with a proffessional demenor and the ability to properly assess a situation and deal with it appropraitly.

Like I said earlier, all they needed to do was ask for ID and to see the contents of the bag. Guns drawn and yelling isn't the correct responce in the very open parking lot of a high end grocery store that get's plenty of traffic even that time of night. (again, I know that shopping center. Upscalish and never deserted or all that sketchy, even at night)

What BSL, with bells on it.

[Pharmacology]

Even the girl acknowledged they had badges out. And that she "grazed" them with her vehicle.

Exactly.  The girl should've used common sense and realized that she should trust a group of gun toting strangers rushing her car.

Because America... and... uhhh.. freedom!

[brimic]

This one of those few things that make me glad of the 'workers' paradise' state I live in.
If someone pulled a gun on someone for carrying a doublewide of beer to their car, there's a very good chance the oppressor will get curb-stomped before the episode is over.