Author Topic: The Sanity Platform  (Read 7198 times)

ArfinGreebly

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 03:12:59 PM »

I disagree.  The 16th Amendment gives Leviathian all the power to do all the things we despise, and is the biggest stranglehold on the population at our government's disposal. 

"We will do XYZ" is a principle.


No, that's a plan.

What principle is violated by the 16th Amendment?
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Angel Eyes

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 03:34:39 PM »
Plank: Constitutional amendment to restrict suffrage to those persons who have completed at least four years of service in the Armed Forces and are discharged under honorable conditions, or have received a medical discharge under honorable conditions due to injuries sustained in the line of duty, or have completed at least 30 years of non-combat civil service in a non-elected, non-appointed, position and having retired in good standing. Furthermore, franchise shall be a requirement of any candidate to hold any elected office or to receive appointment to a civil position which has a term of office greater than 2 years.


a.k.a. the Johnny Rico plank.  No thanks.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2012, 03:35:28 PM »
Great...since I can't be in the military I can't vote?  Thanks, guess the decade plus I've spent forgoing a non defense industry big paycheck to put my skills to use for our military isn't quite the same?  VETO.

And why the time difference?  So 22 year old folks with a DD214 can vote, and 48 year old civil service folks?
That's pretty much selecting a below average voting population with limited experience.  Most civil service folks are retarded, and I'm sure DS Fitz can vouch for the -average- civil knowledge and critical thinking skills of young military folks (again, AVERAGE).

I'd prefer voting be restricted to people who can pass a combined critical thinking, economics, and civics test.  

Because a mailman or DMV clerk typically doesn't get shot at with artillery rockets, mortars, sniper rifles, etc. on a regular basis or have to contend with the constant threat of an IED attack during their commute to/from work. The threat of death and dismemberment is far greater in one of those fields versus the other, and the people are volunteering to take on that danger to themselves in service to the country.

But if my channeling of Heinlein really gets you in such a twist over this, drop the civil service requirement to 20 years, and include the testing. I'd also make the civil service entrance requirements far more stringent, the government isn't (supposed to be) a jobs program for the witless.

ETA: Change the military time requirement to 4 years with a combat deployment, and 16 years without, the 16 instead of 20 simply due to it being a rather dangerous job at times, even if you aren't dodging bullets. An example being UNREP evolutions in the Navy. People still get seriously injured/killed during those things in spite of every precaution possible. Perhaps also add the medical retirement incurred while in service to the civil side as well?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 03:41:09 PM by kgbsquirrel »

Marnoot

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2012, 03:40:22 PM »
Because a mailman or DMV clerk typically doesn't get shot at with artillery rockets, mortars, sniper rifles, etc. on a regular basis or have to contend with the constant threat of an IED attack during their commute to/from work.

Neither does a desk jockey that never got deployed during their 4 years of service.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2012, 03:41:22 PM »
Neither does a desk jockey that never got deployed during their 4 years of service.

Check my edit above.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2012, 03:46:02 PM »
Hrmm. Still looking over and refining the Johnny Rico Plank (thanks for the title Angel Eyes) and not satisfied with it yet. There should be a way for people to accrue civil service time without dedicating their whole career to it. Perhaps something akin to the National Guard/Reserves retirement point system? Volunteering some of your days to community/civil work slowly garners points until you have the equivalent of the 20 years?

Also, I wasn't thinking of state/county/city level franchise, but solely federal level at this moment.

Marnoot

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2012, 03:54:12 PM »
I'm firmly in the "no taxation without representation" camp. So if I'm taxed even a penny of my money to the fedgov, passage of any sort of amendment that resembled your military supremacist suffrage plan would be grounds for revolution in my opinion.

birdman

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2012, 03:54:23 PM »
No, that's a plan.

What principle is violated by the 16th Amendment?

1. Equal protection under the law--taxes (and thus penalties for not paying a certain amount) are not distributed equally person to person, so the law applies differently depending on income.

2. Taxation without representation--as income taxes are not apportioned among the states by population, or by a fixed amount on each individual (capitation), the effective representative voting power is disconnected from the taxes paid...this is the root of all the problems, as it allows a population to vote itself benefits paid for by a different segment of the population, remember, that is how it was passed to begin with--it applied to an exceedingly small population fraction, and was only a marginal rate of 1% IIRC...but has only grown from there.

3. Due process, income tax and it's derivatives, specifically the estate tax and capital gains taxes (due to rule changes in how basis is calculated), combined with the legal penalties for not paying them, are technically an ex post facto law--actions performed prior to one of those being raised can result in higher payments later, and associated legal penalties if not paid.  Taxes are the ONLY retroactive way to be thrown in jail for actions performed before a law is changed.  Of course, you could always pay the estate or capital gains taxes, oh, you can't afford that?  Well, we will just take your property instead (due process AGAIN!)

4. Equal protection and bills of attainder--as having an income tax ALSO allows for deductions or exemptions in how that tax is calculated, those can be made in an extremely and arbitrarily focused fashion (not to mention the original income tax was damn close to a bill of attainder given its focus), thus penalizing or benefiting citizens unequally based on their income or other choices.  We can't pass a law saying "people that don't have two kids go to jail" but we have tax code that says if a childless marred couple otherwise identical in all aspects to a couple with two children doesn't pay MORE in taxes, they go to jail...odd no?

So not only are these fundamental principles violated, but look at it as a whole.  The founders created a system of government that was (they hoped) resistant to the tyranny of a federal-level voting majority, hence an independent judiciary, bicameral legislature, and the FREAKIN TENTH AMENDMENT.  So it is reasonable to assume that the constitutional prohibition on taxes that aren't director apportioned equally was done for a comparable reason--to prevent a population majority or plurality from visiting itself benefits at the expense of a smaller population group.

The 16th amendment tossed that all away, and has grown from "this very small group at the top should pay a little bit more" (where have I heard that before?) to what we have now...and people are STILL saying "this small group should pay more", whether it be the AMT, "new AMT" (buffet rule), steadily more progressive marginal rates, etc.

Basically, the 16th amendment CREATED leviathan by violating nearly all of the basic principles of our original government, including principles that were so important that they were specifically codified as "government can't touch these" in the bill of rights.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2012, 03:57:51 PM »
I'm firmly in the "no taxation without representation" camp. So if I'm taxed even a penny of my money to the fedgov, passage of any sort of amendment that resembled your military supremacist suffrage plan would be grounds for revolution in my opinion.

*scratches chin* You gave me an odd thought what if the Fed gov actually had no taxes or expenditures? All the positions being unpaid, and things like the raising of armies/navies restricted to the State level.

I'm firmly in the "no taxation without representation" camp. So if I'm taxed even a penny of my money to the fedgov, passage of any sort of amendment that resembled your military supremacist suffrage plan would be grounds for revolution in my opinion.

I prefer the term obsequiocracy.  :P
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 04:11:15 PM by kgbsquirrel »

zxcvbob

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2012, 04:00:53 PM »

You forgot 19.

I wasn't stupid enough to say that one out-loud. ;)
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birdman

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2012, 04:15:22 PM »
Hrmm. Still looking over and refining the Johnny Rico Plank (thanks for the title Angel Eyes) and not satisfied with it yet. There should be a way for people to accrue civil service time without dedicating their whole career to it. Perhaps something akin to the National Guard/Reserves retirement point system? Volunteering some of your days to community/civil work slowly garners points until you have the equivalent of the 20 years?

Also, I wasn't thinking of state/county/city level franchise, but solely federal level at this moment.

The problem is, that plank creates a voting population that can't possibly be representative of the population it by definition rules.  For instance, let's say I am a blind, but brilliant physicist, and I was born without legs, and believe that I would like some aspect of the government I am subject to be different.  So I can't vote thin a way to reflect my thoughts, or even try to represent my fellow citizens WITHOUT doing something I can't do (military service), or dedicate my entire career to civil service?  I mean, I assume you are trying to create a SMALLER government, rather than one populated by vast numbers of folks attempting to merely obtain the right to vote?

Given that any new public employees, or short term enlistees merely dilutes the existing voting population in your plank, there is a massive incentive to keep both numbers as low as possible through either increased enlistment terms or smaller number of government civil service positions.

Effectively, you are creating a system that PENALIZES folks from NOT choosing to enlist or go into long term specific service.  As BY DEFINITION both of those groups are not value add segments of an economy, (note, they ARE necessary for an economy to exist, but do not create value in and of themselves), you are making a system of government that disincentives through disenfranchisement private sector work.

While I believe there really is no higher calling than to potentially lay down your life for country, the choice to do so doesn't NOT mean that your vote is "better" than someone who feels they can help their society through other means.  

To do so is a recipe for abuse of power through other means.

Now, I'm only making a big deal about this because you made it a limit on suffrage, NOT just a limit on holding office.  The latter is much less contentious, except in the case of those who cannot perform military jobs.  I assume you want this so that our leaders have a true personal experience with what it means to protect a nation or ideal, the problem is, regardless of timeframe, a civil service job cannot reliably yield the same experience.

I think that all of the above is problematic as it attempts to create a voting population that better understands what is at stake.  The problem is, that can be done with requiring the proper education, rather than a service that should be voluntary.

Perd Hapley

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2012, 04:16:41 PM »
Don't we go through this argument about every six months?
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2012, 04:41:47 PM »
Don't we go through this argument about every six months?

Probably, but it's still a good mental exercise. I also think now that we've finally reached the critical mass point where the politicians offering Free-S*** to buy votes can effectively monopolize the government of this country we should be taking a seriously hard look at suffrage and whether it should be universal.





Hey Birdman, reread the bit from me you just quoted. I think you missed something.  ;)

Just did a patrol here at work and was thinking about the testing idea. The problem comes down to: who makes the tests, and who determines the cut off limits.

Perhaps there's another way to go about this, instead of trying to think up who should get the vote, how about who shouldn't.

I'll kick it off with this:

Dishonorable Discharges (permanent disbarment from public service and voting.)

Recidivistic Criminals (what should the cut off be between guy-who-messed-up and career criminal?)

Malfeasant Public Servants (none of this Charlie Rangle slap-on-the-wrist "ethics censure" crap. Malfeasance while in office should be immediate ejection from the position and life-time disbarment from any public employment and voting.)

Chronically Welfare Dependent Individuals (disenfranchised during any year that the public assistance was collected for greater than 2 months. Now what criteria can be used to effectively separate the never-worked-ever-you-should-give-me-money-because-I-exist leaches, and say, those that are or were recently gainfully employed and only need a temporary lift back onto their feet, or perhaps the granny that worked every day of her life from 18 to 70 and is just now collecting her SS?)

Scout26

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2012, 04:53:27 PM »
Birdman,

Under the Johnny Rico plank, even if you are say, Stephen Hawking, and you wish to join, they will find (or create) a position for you to fill during your term of service. 

The point being to have earned the franchise by devoting 4 years of your life in service to your country.  Whatever that service is.

And yes, if you are receiving money from the .gov, (2 or more months of the year) then no, your are not allowed to vote in any election in that year. 

Also all laws, rules and regulations apply to any and all elected officials and .gov employees. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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birdman

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 05:03:01 PM »
Hey Birdman, reread the bit from me you just quoted. I think you missed something.  ;)

Just did a patrol here at work and was thinking about the testing idea. The problem comes down to: who makes the tests, and who determines the cut off limits.

Perhaps there's another way to go about this, instead of trying to think up who should get the vote, how about who shouldn't.

I'll kick it off with this:

Dishonorable Discharges (permanent disbarment from public service and voting.)

Recidivistic Criminals (what should the cut off be between guy-who-messed-up and career criminal?)

Malfeasant Public Servants (none of this Charlie Rangle slap-on-the-wrist "ethics censure" crap. Malfeasance while in office should be immediate ejection from the position and life-time disbarment from any public employment and voting.)

Chronically Welfare Dependent Individuals (disenfranchised during any year that the public assistance was collected for greater than 2 months. Now what criteria can be used to effectively separate the never-worked-ever-you-should-give-me-money-because-I-exist leaches, and say, those that are or were recently gainfully employed and only need a temporary lift back onto their feet, or perhaps the granny that worked every day of her life from 18 to 70 and is just now collecting her SS?)

Okay, sorry.  Now I got you.  You and scout are right on, I still suggest we make it a combination of a minimum qualifier, and very specific disqualifies as you suggest.

So we are the disqualifiers you have, and add in a civil service requirement AND let's call it a "voting license" that you have to take a test to pass (yeah, we will have good luck with that one...it will take about 5 femtoseconds before we are accused of advocating Jim crow laws), AND some civil service requirement.

I think the last could also be made better by combining it with term limits AND a bar from post-service exploitation (as discussed in other threads I believe) AND make federal positions effectively unpaid.  Originally, being in congress wasn't supposed to be a job onto itself, but rather a service you are performing for your fellow citizens.

How about that?

kgbsquirrel

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2012, 05:14:17 PM »
For the qualifier test, probably can't get away with anything "IQ test" like. Perhaps just a straight up national history/basic economics/mechanisms of government thing? Also update it, and require it to be retaken every 10 years (in conjunction with the census?) If someone has gone senile, or is so mentally disabled that they are incapable of learning and understanding those basic facts then they will likely fail, and all without having the test-makers having to determine and arbitrary cut off for reasoning and cognitive ability.

Scout26

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2012, 05:29:28 PM »
For the test why not use the current Citizenship test given to immigrants?  If it's good enough to determine who can become a citizen, then it's good enough to determine who can vote.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.749cabd81f5ffc8fba713d10526e0aa0/?vgnextoid=5efcebb7d4ff8210VgnVCM10000025e6a00aRCRD&vgnextchannel=5efcebb7d4ff8210VgnVCM10000025e6a00aRCRD

(Note that they also have to take an English test.)

I would bump up the number of questions to say 20 with 16 being a passing score.  I'd also make it 2 of 3 on both English tests (Reading and Writing).

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Jamisjockey

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2012, 05:34:55 PM »
Plank: Constitutional amendment to restrict suffrage to those persons who have completed at least four years of service in the Armed Forces and are discharged under honorable conditions, or have received a medical discharge under honorable conditions due to injuries sustained in the line of duty, or have completed at least 30 years of non-combat civil service in a non-elected, non-appointed, position and having retired in good standing. Furthermore, franchise shall be a requirement of any candidate to hold any elected office or to receive appointment to a civil position which has a term of office greater than 2 years.


Yeah, no.  Create a warrior society and the only result is war.  Think more freedoms, not less.




I do think a 3/4 majority would be a serious blow to statism.  Without a supermajority, you couldn't just ram legislation that is harmful to a majority of the people through.

JD

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zxcvbob

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2012, 06:50:28 PM »
Quote
Dishonorable Discharges (permanent disbarment from public service and voting.)

Why is this a permanent ban?  (and a single felony on your list was not)  There should be a path to redemption for anybody who is not incarcerated at the time.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2012, 07:09:34 PM »
Why is this a permanent ban?  (and a single felony on your list was not)  There should be a path to redemption for anybody who is not incarcerated at the time.

The day someone walks out of a prison or their parole ends, they should have full rights restored.
Many, many felonies aren't even violent, yet we continue to strip felons of their rights.
JD

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longeyes

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2012, 07:11:13 PM »
Warnings against "warrior societies" may be well-taken, but we have seen what the converse of a warrior society is, and it's this.  Our foreign war policies are a different matter altogether, but the fact that our nation is willing to let "the one per cent" defend it says volumes about what kind of Republic we really have.  I don't think it's about war as much as the very sense of community and accountability that the Left likes to prattle about so grandly.
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lupinus

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2012, 07:36:59 PM »
Drop the service requirement, require passing score on civics or citizenship test and I'm good with making that a requirement.

Yeah, under the Johnny Rico platform they will find a position for anyone. That doesn't mean the position wont be strapping explosives to Steves wheel chair and telling him to roll down that hole over yonder.

That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

birdman

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2012, 07:39:05 PM »
That doesn't mean the position wont be strapping explosives to Steves wheel chair and telling him to roll down that hole over yonder.

Dude, I know Steve sucks, but what did he do to you?!

lupinus

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »
I was just trying to think WTF Stephen Hawking would be able to do in the MI.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

birdman

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Re: The Sanity Platform
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2012, 08:00:04 PM »
I was just trying to think WTF Stephen Hawking would be able to do in the MI.

Kill some mother-f'ing bugs while slapping johnny and banging his chick with his armored, thought controlled anthropomorphic power armor that's what!