Sometimes I despise my own species....

[Sindawe]

GODE, Ethiopia - U.S. soldiers discovered two endangered cheetah cubs being held captive and abused in a restaurant in this dusty, remote Ethiopian village and have launched a campaign for the animals' rescue.

The 3-month-old cubs were being forced to fight each other for the amusement of patrons at a Gode restaurant; one cheetah was blind, possibly from poachers who kicked the animal in the face.

The soldiers, part of the U.S. counterterrorism task force for the Horn of Africa, discovered the cubs last month. They provided medical treatment to the blinded cub, fed both animals and tried to persuade restaurant owner Mohamed Hudle to hand them over to wildlife officials.

The soldiers also contacted U.S.-based cheetah experts as well as Ethiopian authorities.

Befekadu Refera, an official of the national
Environmental Protection Agencyin the capital, Addis Ababa, confirmed that the U.S. military had contacted his agency about the cubs and had offered to fly the pair to Addis Ababa, 684 miles away, for care. The U.S. military refused to comment.

The owner, however, was refusing to hand over the cubs unless paid $1,000 for each — 10 times the average income in this impoverished nation of 77 million people.

"I don't see why I should hand them over," Hudle told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "When I was younger I looked after goats and camels, so I know what animals need."

His sons, 4 and 2, pulled the cubs' tails and dragged them around by ropes tied tightly to their necks. Other children followed, poking and teasing the frightened animals.

Mohamed, 43, said he bought the cubs from poachers, who had kicked the female cub in the face, blinding the animal.

The cheetah is endangered because of loss of habitat, poaching and other factors, according to the international Cheetah Conservation Fund. Keeping wild animals is illegal without a special license, but Ethiopia's wildlife laws are rarely enforced. Mohamed also has a hawk with a broken wing and three scrawny baby ostriches.

Deputy Wildlife Minister Ahmed Nisir has sent officials to try to secure the cheetahs' release. A government vet was expected to visit Saturday.

"Unless these cubs are properly looked after and cared for they will soon die," Befekadu said.

He said if the cubs are brought to the capital, they would be cared for on the large grounds of the National Palace, home to several Abyssinian lions rescued by former Emperor Haile Selassie.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

RE: Mr. Hudle and his sproggen.

HANG'INS too GOOD for 'em....
BURN'INS too GOOD for 'em....
.....

[Seymour Skinner]

If the U.S. government actually wanted to do some good in this world, it would have invaded the entire continent of Africa, overthrown every two bit scum tyrant/warlord, divided it up into 100 or so regions under one set of laws, and appointed Americans as permanent governors for each region.  The very unsophisticated militias that fuel Africa's endless civil wars could be shattered in half the time we've spent fighting a smart, and well connected insurgency in Iraq.  

The vast wealth of Africa is more than enough to sustain the continent, and frankly, I do not believe that Africa can ever govern itself even close to the way good government is defined (hell, Americans since electing F.D.R. have forgotten true principles of liberty).  The U.N. quietly knows everything I just said, and USES Africa to justify it's evil existence.

The only problem with my idea, is that if food was actually distributed, and without civil wars, disease, etc, the population would utterly explode over there.  The powers that be in this world clearly know that too, which is why, I believe the evidence to be overwhelming, that the dark side of the U.S. government created AIDS as part of the globalist strategy of DEpopulation.  I think though, that they underestimated that abject stupidity of many in Africa, who would rather risk getting AIDS than wear a condom/get tested and get married (the males over there are pure bullys and refuse, and the females are too weak, the polar opposite of overbearing American women).

I consider myself a "culturist" as opposed to a racist (though if someone wants to call me the latter I say BFD) because it's actually the CULTURE and mentality that the negroes have that is backward and unfixable.  Negroes that understand reality and correct principles, end up having to abandon their race (actually, their race, which subscribes to groupthink, ostracizes THEM for "acting white").  It's that horrid CULTURE, of bullying and violence that the negroes have, that probably only God himself can wipe off the planet.  I look forward to that day.  It's that CULTURE that explains the behavior in the New Orleans convention center, and the behavior of those torturing these two little cheetah cubs.

[Guest]

as much as i hate to admit it, i do agree with SOME of what Masterpiecearms say....

the only real option for pacifying africa is nuking it from orbit though, otherwise, just let em' burn in thier own mess.

[matis]

Shame on you, Masterpiece Arms!

Don't you know that the white man stole his superior culture from the Africans?  If you don't, then there are a number of professors in black studies departments of our seats of higher learning who can enlighten you on all that.


Well, what do you expect, then?  


The basket-case condition of almost all african countries is how WE left them.


And our flourishing civilization is based on a stolen culture.


The point is:  since we stole their superior culture, they don't have it any more.

Is that so hard to understand?




As for the Cheetah cubs, #@%# the b@stards who did it.

I'd say, "a pox upon them."  But that'd be a waste of breath. A pox, and numerous other maladies are already upon them.


Maybe G-d's punishing them for having sold their brothers into slavery?




matis

[K Frame]

I've despised the human race for years.

If we were truly God's most perfect creation, he was smoking crack that day.

[Guest]

That's outrageous! What the heck are US soldiers doing meddling in Africa?!

[Stand_watie]

...Maybe G-d's punishing them for having sold their brothers into slavery?matis

While I do believe that G-d punishes nations in instances, just as he punishes individuals in instances when I see suffering either collectively or individually, specifically absent any Scriptural explanation, I'm more inclined toward "natural law" as an explanation rather than divine intervention.

Punishments for guilty and innocent alike were sort of built into the system - smoke crack while your pregnant? It doesn't require divine intervention for your baby to suffer. I think the same could be said for Africa en-masse, although I don't think the tribalism that masterpiece arms described is racially limited or limited to any region. My own ancestors were degenerate barbarians a thousand years ago. I'm a culturist myself, I think that Jewish>Roman>English>French>American is the best culture the world knows today, but a black or a Vietnamese immigre might have that culture just as strongly as I do.

Something just occurred to me Matis, while I was going back through my post and censoring the o out of G-d, am I wasting my time? Is the preferred spelling for some Jews simply what they prefer to do or is it offensive when others do it to?

[Werewolf]

This is without a doubt the most Politically Incorrect thread I've read in a long time.

GAWD! I love it when people say what they actually think.

If I hadn't been banned from DU I'd link to this thread over there. I'm pretty sure at  least two or three DU heart attacks would result and that'd be a really good thing.

[TarpleyG]

Well, back to the story.  It's sad really.  Hopefully the "owner" will get what's coming to him when the cubs grow up.  The soldiers should have just put a bullet in the owner and the blind cub.  Neither will amount to much now.

Greg

[matis]

Stand_watie, I was kidding about the divine punishment crack.

And along with you and the others above, I am also a culturalist.

Although I do believe that cultural values/practices eventually make their way into the genes.  E.G. a group with cultural values revering study and teaching hard struggle to uncover truth -- such a group will test higher for IQ than groups without such values.

So the genes are, to that extent, congealed experience.

Something just occurred to me Matis, while I was going back through my post and censoring the o out of G-d, am I wasting my time? Is the preferred spelling for some Jews simply what they prefer to do or is it offensive when others do it to?

Stand_watie, I am moved by what you write here.


Orthodox Jews teach that holy items, such as prayer books, must not be cavalierly discarded when worn out or damaged.  They must be disposed of accompanied by prayer and in ways that I am not knowledgeable enough to describe here.  I write the word that way because Jews I deeply respect and learn from do.

G-d is written that way because we might print this writing out and then improperly discard it.

The Jewish concept of the Creator is that He is so holy and so far above us in terms of our understanding that we must not even say His name.

Therefore, Orthodox Jews refer to him as Hashem.  This Hebrew word means literally, "the name".

It is taught that G-d loves and is aware of each of us at all times.  He is not at all remote from us; but although we must ever each toward Him, we are simply not equipped to apprehend the reality of what/who he is.  It's sort of like trying to look directly at the sun.  You cannot do so without blinding yourself.


It is not, in my opinion,  necessary for you to remove the "o" from your posts.  I personally do not take even the slightest offense at your normal spelling of the word.

And I do not think any Jews would either expect this of you, or take offense.


But the point of what you wrote that affects me is that you would go to such trouble to avoid giving offense.  That speaks to me about the sincerity with which you approach your relations with Jews.


You probably know that I have recurring arguments with Jews who won't, at least put aside, park for now, their suspicion and hostility toward believing Christians, "the Christian Right" who'se aspirations they suspect of harboring a threat to them.

I find it tough to get them to open their eyes to see what is happening NOW, HERE, and to loosen their exclusive focus on what Christians have done to Jews for the last 2000 years and expecially 65 years ago in Europe.  I point out that believing Christians in the States today are quite different and do more for Israel today than most Jews do.

And in facing the worldwide Islamofascist threat, not to mention to counter the degeneration of our culture, we desperately need each other as allies.


Even when I make some headway, they bring up Christian belief in the Rapture and that they only want to use Jews, etc. etc.  (You know what my answer is to that.  To the extent that is true -- So What!. When the Messiah comes he will be either Jesus or he'll be the Messiah that the Jews are waiting for.  Either way, all will acknowledge him.  So why worry?)


You have yourself been involved in some of these threads so I'm sure you know what I mean.


So what do you suppose they'd make of someone like you, laboriously going back over his post, removing the "o"s?  What would motivate some one to do that?  A secret plan to hurt the Jews?


So unless you for some reason object, when appropriate, I will use this as an example in such arguments.  Who knows?  Perhaps something like that will make a dent.


Be well,



matis

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Well done, both of you!

My wife and I have friends who do NOT consider themselves to be "messianic Jews".  They consider ALL Christians to be "fulfilled Jews", most of whom just don't realize that the Messiah they see as their savior came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.  A pretty unique perspective, IMO.
Anyhow, these folks celebrate Shabbat each week, and observe all the traditional feasts and holy days, and seek daily to serve the Lord, G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Yet, they are Christians and believe in Jesus.
They believe that Yeshua came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.  I know how heretical that must sound to Judaic orthodoxy, and I don't say it for any reason except to extend a hand of agreement to focus on what we share in common-- the "Old Testament" part of the book.

My wife wears a piece of jewelry called "Grafted In",
(the meaning of which comes from here: http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/messianic_seal.htm )
...which is a Menorrah on top, Mogen David in the middle, and an "ICHTHUS" fish (hanging vertically) from the bottom.  
You can see it here: http://www.thegalileeexperience.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TGE&Product_Code=JPM033&Category_Code=G

The goals of the website, as taken directly from the home page, are as follows:

"Why should you buy from The Galilee Experience?

1. Be a Blessing to Israel.
2. Be a Blessing to the Messianic Believers in Israel.
3. Connect yourself, your Family and your Friends more strongly to Israel!

Thanks for shopping with us!"

I really have a heart for better dialogue and cooperation between us, since the REST of the world sees us as "Judeo-Christian" anyway! We (Christians) could learn SO MUCH from the wisdom of some of the teachings of Torah, Talmud and Rabbinical writers, instead of "throwing the baby out with the bath" because it didn't come from our pastor's pulpit on Sunday morning.  
Sorry for the hijack!

Fig

[matis]

Well done, both of you!

They believe that Yeshua came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.  I know how heretical that must sound to Judaic orthodoxy, and I don't say it for any reason except to extend a hand of agreement to focus on what we share in common-- the "Old Testament" part of the book.

Fig, I just got off the phone with my daughter.  It's evening, Shabbos is over and she called me from her Yeshiva in New Haven.

I was telling her about my experiences posting on the gun forums and about the friends I've made, especially those among believing Christians.  And I told her about my last post to Stand_watie and about your post here.

What I told her was how ticklish it can be to get the idea across without mis-communicating.

Jews like myself (a small minority so far, I'm afraid) have come to understand the nature of believing Christians in the States at this time in history.  And we welcome an alliance of the two groups whose basic values are very close.  I believe we need each other.

The ticklish part comes in conveying, WITHOUT GIVING OFFENSE, that we seek an ALLIANCE of equals, NOT a merging.

Ecumenism and finding points of agreement may be important.  But only tactically.  NOT theologically.  And that's where one must continually strive to communicate as clearly as one can, to avoid giving the wrong impression.


I feel affection and respect for believing Christians.  In fact, although liberal Jews are certainly my fellow Jews, I get exasperated at the way they have drifted from and have twisted Jewish teachings.  And politically we are very far apart, indeed.  (If one examined my voting pattern he would probably guess me to be an Evangelical.)

And one way they drift is to seek the friendship of Christians (so long as these Christians are not too religious -- that would point up their own lack of belief) --and  to look for points of convergence in the two religions.  They think that blurring the differences will promote friendship.


I don't think that, at all.

I believe that, miraculous as Jewish survival is, we are constantly threatened with assimilation into the majority.  Here in the States, there were approximately 5.6 million Jews in the 1990 census.  In the latest count, we have shrunk to 5.1 million.  We have lost 10% in half a decade!  And there are only about 13 million Jews in the entire world.  Blurring the theological differences leads to inter-marriage and even conversion.  And it leads to drifting even further from observance, which alone keeps the Jews Jewish.

The way to reverse that is to return to Orthodox Jewish belief and practice.  Although most assimilated Jews won't do that, my daughter has.  That is why my daughter is in Yeshiva.  And, thank G-d, she is there because she chooses to be.  She is a Hassidic Jew (as is her mother).  At least I've accomplished that much.

So although I reach out to believing Christians because of our shared values, I DO NOT, in any way, reach out to them theologically.

As I found it necessary to say in a post on THR (or TFL), there is NO WAY to accommodate Jewish theology to Christian.

No Jew who knows who he is would accept the divinity of Jesus.  Period.


I wish I didn't feel the need to be so blunt.  I DO NOT want to offend or push away my believing Christian friends.  Quite the contrary.

But Christian theology teaches that EVERONE needs to accept Christ.  And believing Christians usually do communicate this openly or covertly to Jews.  That is a main reason why believing Jews do not seek the friendship of Christians.  They're not going to compromise their beliefs in any way -- a grave sin.  So here and now they don't want to offend.  At other times and places giving offense could have cost them their lives.

So it's easier to just avoid the situation.

I understand their reaction.  


But given the crises facing us, I believe we must co-operate in fighting them.


On the other hand you mentioned Messianic Jews.  They aren't.

This is simply a covert way to convert confused or ignorant Jews.  I am as hostile to this movement as I am to any other attempt to convert Jews.  I fully support, from my heart, Christian conversion of gentiles. Without great success in that, our civilization is lost.   But keep hands off Jews.  We have our own religion we desperately need to return to.


In the middle 80's I attended Messianic meetings (in a Ramada Inn, no less) so as to disrupt the proceedings.  This was before I began my return to my heritage.  I was completely secular then, but nevertheless very Jewish in my gut.

I would tell the Jews there that what they were seeking was theirs already, but that they wouldn't find it in the "plastic American synagogues"  (Reform/Conservative).

And I challenged the "Rabbi" Levy to tell us his real name.  Turned out I was correct.  He was a Rabbi like I am a kangaroo.  And I don't remember his real name but it wasn't Levy.


These were Christians who didn't think that lying and misrepresenting themselves  was wrong, so long as they could convert Jews.  They prey upon Jews who are ignorant, confused or struck by some tragedy in their lives.  If I sound bitter, it's because I am.

I gave them hell.  But I didn't get very far with them.  Probably because I was myself atheist at the time and had no way to really make contact with these Jews religiously.


Writing this makes me wonder if I shouldn't begin visiting the local Messianic "shul" again.  

Naw, there are better ways to use my energy.


So as you can see, I have no difficulty understanding Jewish bitterness and suspicion of Christians, based on our 2000 year long experience.  I just think that succumbing to that at this time, in the States and taking it out on American Evangelicals is unfair and counterproductive.


So if you can understand and accept Jewish refusal to entertian any notion that Yehoshua came to fulfill the law, then perhaps we can be friends and allies.  We must not foist our theology off on each other.


Christian belief in this time and place instills good morals into people and makes them understand what is important in life and what isn't.  What more could one ask of anybody?  And Christianity derives from Judasim.  We share reverence for the Old Testament (Torah).  That's enough for me.  



I apologize if I've ruffled feathers.  It is nevertheless my sincere hope that you can hear and understand what I'm trying to get across.


And that I truly do feel affection and respect for believing Christians.  



Be well,



matis

[grampster]

Please count me in as friend and ally, matis.  As a believing Christian I have long felt an affinity for my Jewish brothers and sisters.  I may be a bit clumsier in expressing that notion than Fig or Stand or others who are more versed than I.  But, though I may not be as skillful, I know what I believe and why.  

[matis]

Please count me in as friend and ally, matis.  As a believing Christian I have long felt an affinity for my Jewish brothers and sisters.  I may be a bit clumsier in expressing that notion than Fig or Stand or others who are more versed than I.  But, though I may not be as skillful, I know what I believe and why.  

Grampster, I am certain that you know what you believe and why.

I have never had the slightest difficulty understanding what you write.  I doubt anyone else has, either.

I feel your affinity and counted you in even before this post.

Thank you, friend.


Be well,



matis

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Well done, both of you!

They believe that Yeshua came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.  I know how heretical that must sound to Judaic orthodoxy, and I don't say it for any reason except to extend a hand of agreement to focus on what we share in common-- the "Old Testament" part of the book.

Fig, I just got off the phone with my daughter.  It's evening, Shabbos is over and she called me from her Yeshiva in New Haven.

I was telling her about my experiences posting on the gun forums and about the friends I've made, especially those among believing Christians.  And I told her about my last post to Stand_watie and about your post here.

What I told her was how ticklish it can be to get the idea across without mis-communicating.

My friend, you are SO right.  

Jews like myself (a small minority so far, I'm afraid) have come to understand the nature of believing Christians in the States at this time in history.  And we welcome an alliance of the two groups who'se basic values are very close.  I believe we need each other.

The ticklesh part comes in conveying, WITHOUT GIVING OFFENSE, that we seek an ALLIANCE of equals, NOT a merging.

Ecumenism and finding points of agreement may be important.  But only tactically.  NOT theologically.  And that's where one must continually strive to communicate, as clearly as one can, to avoid giving the wrong impression.

Point taken, and I humbly apologize if I bumbled my way through some of what I said.

So although I reach out to believing Christians because of our shared values, I DO NOT, in any way, reach out to them theologically.

As I found it necessary to say in a post on THR (or TFL), there is NO WAY to accomodate Jewish theology to the Christian.

No Jew who knows who he is would accept the divinity of Jesus.  Period.

I wish I didn't feel the need to be so blunt.  I DO NOT want to offend or push away my believing Christian friends.  Quite the contrary.

Not a problem.  It may be something I needed to hear from you, who I am friendly with, in order NOT to offend others in the future.

But Christian theology teaches that EVERONE needs to accept Christ.  And believing Christians usually do communicate this openly or more covertly to Jews.  That is a main reason why believing Jews do not seek the friendship of Christians.  They're not going to compromise their beliefs in any way -- a grave sin.  So here and now they don't want to offend.  At other times and places giving offense could have cost them their lives.

So it's easier to just avoid the situation.

I understand their reaction.  
But given the crises facing us, I believe we must co-operate in fighting them.

Agreed.  I guess what needs to happen is for us to listen to one another and be willing (in my case) to adjust my approach to the alliance.

I tend to come across, despite my best efforts to the contrary, like a big dumb Golden Retriever.  Tail wagging, good-hearted, and just unrefined and messy as I knock lamps over running through the house.  Thanks matis, for recognizing the good intentions and not throwing me out on the back porch!

I would tell the Jews there that what they were seeking was theirs already, but that they wouldn't find it in the "plastic American synagogues"  (Reform/Conservative).

And I challenged the "Rabbi" Levy to tell us his real name.  Turned out I was correct.  He was a Rabbi like I am a kangaroo.  And his real name wasn't Levy.

These were Christians who didn't think that lying and misrepresenting themselves  was wrong, so long as they could convert Jews.  They prey upon Jews who are ignorant, confused or struck by some tragedy in their lives.  If I sound bitter, it's because I am.

And deservedly so.  Doing things like that where the 'end' justifies the 'means' is reprehensible.  You mention 'plastic American synagogues', and I see alot of Protestant churches in a similar way.  Full of feelgood and making a big splash going through the motions, and losing the authenticity of a relationship with one's Creator.  

I'm really uncomfortable with bureaucracy, yet ANY time more than a few people come together in an organization, to make things run smoothly, a framework MUST to be assembled.  In so many cases, the framework becomes the priority and the authenticity is lost in the process.  I wish I was genius enough to figure out how to solve that problem, with an option other than become a hermit.

So as you can see, I have no difficulty understanding Jewish bitterness and suspicion of Christians, based on our 2000 year long experience.  I just think that succumbing to that at this time, in the States and taking it out on American Evangelicals is unfair and counterproductive.

So if you can understand and accept Jewish refusal to accept any notion that Yehoshua came to fulfill the law, then perhaps we can be friends and allies.  We must not foist our theology off on each other.


Christian belief in this time and place instills good morals into people and makes them understand what is important in life and what isn't.  And Christianity derives from Judasim.  We share reverence for the old Testament (Torah).  That's enough for me.  What more could one ask of anybody?



If I've ruffled feathers, it is nevertheless my sincere hope that you can hear and understand what I'm trying to get across.

And that I truly do feel affection and respect for believing Christians.  



Be well,



matis

No feathers ruffled here.  I think the cooperation we forge is mutually beneficial, without having to insist that Jews become Christians or vice versa.  By the way, it helps me a great deal to have the benefit of your perspective on what it looked/felt like to be on the receiving end of that whole Rabbi Levy sham.
There are TV evangelists that I wish would just get swallowed up and never be seen again.  Lack of integrity, and loss of "authenticity" (which I define, at least partly, as first-person experience) among people doing things "in the name of the Lord" probably turns more people off than it draws.

This is getting long, so I'll just say thanks for your friendship and generosity.

[Guest]

As some know, I was raised in an Independent Baptist setting.

I apprenticed starting about age 12 under Orthodox Jews.  
They don't teach kids in a Baptist Sunday school to NOT take a ham sandwich to Orthodox owned places of work.

What is interesting, is the old Preacher used to meet with Jewish, Catholics, and other faiths over coffee and pie. Discuss their respective congregations and how they were dealing with, coping with and what-all with the goings in in the Real World.  JFK being asssinated, Cuban Missles, or even  more local events - not the Faiths being hashed about - the respective peoples and how to deal with all of this. Some great ideas shared and used.

I was learning a whole lot more than what I was there for apprenticship.  We had reformed Jews and honestly, I forget all the names and differences,we did business with,I'm a dumb Gentile.  I was accepted as being one and this was not meant as being a bad thing.

We had the Catholics come in too, I was facinated as to the quality of converstation and respect watching, listening, learning these two "different" sects were to me.

We had other Protestant groups, "Hey Steve, you speak Baptist, what is this Methodist trying to tell us he wants...laughter and no hard feelings.

"Hey Steve, you ever met a Mormon?"  I had not to my knowledge ever met one, Sunday School never explained that either, didn't know what to expect, so I come out the shop and there is good looking lady with her husband. Normal folks. Beginning to figure out this "dumb Gentile" had a lot of truth to its meaning.

I was totally awed, My Orthodox boss and his wife were so knowledgeable about the Mormons and history, a Father comes in with a Nun, and they joined in the conversation. I'm observing, hearing these...these "other faiths" interact and no negative.

Boss " we can always be farmers again"
Mormons " yes , we know those skills as well..."
Catholic "we have never been afraid to get our hands dirty either..."

That is when I made my own decisons about belief systems.  I respected the teachings, the traditions and appreciations. I also noticed it came from within each person. It did not come the shape, size, name on the building they met, or days of week they met.  

This caused hands to face, jaws to drop and me getting fussed at by my own kind - except the old Man Preacher. He was sharp, He was smart. He passed away many many years ago.

Interesting how with my own kind, and those with same name, they attend a bulding once a week. One is even a  deacon in his church - oh they  put up a good front, they give great lip service when around their own kind ...

The Orthodox Jews and later Reformed Jews as employers walked the walk. So did the Catholics, Mormons and other Protestant groups such as Episcopalions, Methodists ...

I recall all of out shooting, oh yes we did this. We all carried back then and kept firearms handy, even though back then there was "no official paper"...

"We may all have a different belief system name, we all have a belief system. We all believe in personal responsiblity, and not being meddled with".

There I am shooting with all these belief systems, both genders, and ribbing and kidding.  "You try shooting with a Penguin suit on...let me see how well you do"  One of the nuns jokingly spoke.  Hasiddic (sp?) quipped ' "try it with a beard in this heat and not having your hat fall off...".

Somebody take the dumb Gentile to lunch and feed him a ham sandwich will you?  - My boss said laughing.  He and the Jew went one way, I ate with the Catholics ,Mormons, and such.

It had to be a Friday, Cause the Catholics ate fish, I got into the BBQ pork.

There is time and place to defend, times one must meddle in times of defense, others, best not to meddle. Mentors & Elders shared many examples of in history folks meddled - all in the name of a Belief System.

Steve

[matis]

No feathers ruffled here.  I think the cooperation we forge is mutually beneficial, without having to insist that Jews become Christians or vice versa.

Fig, You got what I'm trying to say.



I know that you are (like your apt metaphor -- the Golden Retriever) "good hearted".  That's why I allow myself to write without pulling punches.

This is getting long, so I'll just say thanks for your friendship and generosity.

You're welcome.  But it seems like I should be offering exactly the same thanks to you.


You allow me to get it off my chest without taking personal offense.  Then you say you'll remember it when with other Jews.  The generousity is yours.


You and Stand-watie and Grampster (I hope I'm not forgetting anybody) convey a genuine wish for friendship and, if I may say it this way, a sweetness.


It makes me feel safe to say what I think is necessary so we can truly understand each other, instead of just being superficially nice to each other.



There exists an organization run by a Rabbi Lapin, called Toward Tradition.  He too promotes an alliance of conservative, believing Jews and Christians for the purpose of fighting the increasing degeneracy we are sinking into.

I've read some of his stuff and heard him on the radio and I like what I heard.  It's late now, but tomorrow I'll google him and make contact.


Simply posting the way we do moves us in the right direction.


But maybe it's time to do a bit more.


I'll let you know what I find out.


Be well,    


matis

[Sindawe]

What the frell?  I go away for a few days and this thread turns into an religious discussion?  Talk about thread drift.

The powers that be in this world clearly know that too, which is why, I believe the evidence to be overwhelming, that the dark side of the U.S. government created AIDS as part of the globalist strategy of DEpopulation.

I concur with most of your observations regarding the current state of sub-Sahara Africa, but this one just does not stand up.  HIV has been found in plasma and tissue samples predating the widespread understanding and use of restriction enzymes (http://www.avert.org/origins.htm and http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/restriction.html) which are needed to create custom DNA strands.  Also, remember that HIV is NOT a DNA virus, it is a retrovirus with its genome composed of RNA strands that have to reverse transcribed into DNA before it can be inserted into the host cell's own DNA.  Thats some pretty fancy creation by even our current standards of technology.

I'd like to see the overwhelming evidence that shows HIV is a created virus Masterpiece Arms, since the evidence I've seen points to HIV being a species jumper from, likely from chimps based on the data to date.

[Seymour Skinner]

It is a breath of fresh air Sindawe to see someone who disagrees me use a logical, well constructed argument.  Getting into the technical biological "hows" of creating a virus like AIDS would be a great idea on a forum of bio engineers, but I suspect that getting the core points across would be even harder among "bio nerds."  Scientists tend to neither know or care about the core issues with the creation of AIDS:

1.  Getting scientists to even talk about evidence of government dark side activities (let alone high level conspiracy) is as far from thier sphere of interest as it gets.  They just don't care.  The conspiracy aspect being the main issue means there's no convincing the tunnel visioned "scientist" to pay attention to an aspect that doesn't involve test tubes and formulas.  I find this interesting, because the scientific method fits right in to the study of conspiracy, just like any other behavior.  When you know you have a phenomenon occuring, you isolate the causes.  Simple enough, but people throw that out the window when government conspiracy is involved because they don't want to believe that "their" government is actually as evil as they really know it is, but refuse to deal with because there's no easy solution and it's quite unpleasant.

2.  Sindawe, you seem to think that it would be too hard to create AIDS.  The science for creating viruses is so many decades old, the reality, is that it was only a matter of time before evil individuals did it.  I'm always amazed when people give government  power structures a "pass" and essentially say that "government would never do such a thing."

3.  VERY LITTLE about the original virus (the mother of HIV if you will) needed to be altered.  I'm not kidding or using hyperbole either when I say that.  That is the science of it on several levels.  The "source animals" of the virus are MORE similar to humans genetically, than male humans are to female humans.

4.  Every time you turn on the "news" or open a "news" magazine you see the precursors to bona fide evidence of government covering up that it created AIDS: neither the government or the controlled media will even TALK ABOUT anymore, THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN STORY.  They are clearly scared to death that people will study it.  You won't see "60 Minutes" or "Dateline" or "20/20" ever do a story on just WHAT the government's official line is, let alone, how on earth this thing conveniently allegedly "jumped" species.

5.  The only part of the government's story on AIDS that people remember (that it allegedly "jumped" from monkeys) has another problem:  for decades, the globalist establishment has been saying and publishing that it WANTS to depopulate the earth.  It is no secret that organs of the U.N. and many U.N. connected people and organizations want the earth's population "reduced" by 2/3rds.  When the wider picture is observed, the government's official line becomes rather convenient, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY DON'T SEEM TO WANT ANYONE LOOKING TOO CLOSE AT IT.

[grampster]

Speaking of despicable.  I read about the plan that 400 execs at Delphi had in store for themselves.  Multi million dollar bonuses, 10% ownership of the resurrected company, raises, stock options etc.  There was such an uproar from creditors and blue collar that the bancruptcy judge delayed the hearing.

What I can't seem to figure out is why all of these corporations that have been and are being run into the ground by EXECUTIVE decisions, somehow devolves down to the worker level, who's ranks are usually decimated and management slaps each other on their collective backs and pays themselves handsomely.  They are getting away with it daily and it's even being reported in the media.  Yet, where is the outrage.

Now I may be able to agree that labor has extracted much over the last 3 or 4 decades and the world has changed with 3rd world slave labor standing eagerly by to manufacture, well, everything.  It was still management that created the problem by giving in to unrealistic demands. Imagine if our progress in wages and benny's had been cranked back a bit.  Would the competition look so tempting?  Would our lives have been impacted negatively enough that todays chaos would have never happened?  Wouldn't it maybe been a better thing?  

It's like multimillion dollar athletes being blamed for the high price of tickets.  The owners paid them the bucks.  They would never have gotten paid at that level if the ego dudes who owned the teams didn't lust so much over an oversized ring to substitute for a teeny weenie.  If you were an athlete or a worker, would you turn down a raise?  

So now we have a problem with being able to compete.  Why couldn't this have been forseen.  Isn't that why executives get such huge compensation?  They are supposed to anticipate this kind of stuff.  We have the best productivity in the States, but compete against global powers that pay slave wages.   And our vaunted captains of industry rush toward that in order to line their pockets.  You don't see prices coming down do you?  And now, when manufacturing can't compete here, it's the worker's fault and the bosses reward themselves when they close 50% of domestic production.

What's the guys name in charge of Delphi?  Steve Miller?  He says if he doesn't pay the vigorish to the execs they'll leave and go elsewhere.  I say don't let the door hit them in the ass on the way out.  Let em all leave.  They created the problem, as Sindawe would say, for frelling sake.  Hell, they won't leave.  Nobody else would want them.

As a republican (I think I still am, not sure I want to be anymore) and an avowed capitalist I'm beginning to wonder whether some public hangings might not be in order for some of these guys that have driven some of our largest corporations into the ground while looting and pillaging them along the way.  A flat bed truck.  Multiple gallows.  Yankee Stadium.  High noon.  Oprah speaking in a hushed tone as
a couple dozen CEO's, CFO's, COO's are led up on the trucks.

Perhaps some minds might be changed regarding how we conduct bidness in America.
Turns rant off, walks to kitchen for ANOTHER root beer flote.

[Sindawe]

how on earth this thing conveniently allegedly "jumped" species

Its called LUNCH.  aka: Bushmeat  The first link I provided presented on3 possible means....

Their final findings were published two years later in Nature magazine2. In this article, they concluded that wild chimps had been infected simultaneously with two different simian immunodeficiency viruses which had "viral sex" to form a third virus that could be passed on to other chimps and, more significantly, was capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS.

This kind of thing happens A LOT with some virus species.  Our old friend Influenza is one of them that does this on a regular basis.

The science for creating viruses is so many decades old, the reality, is that it was only a matter of time before evil individuals did it.

Citations please for this "decades old" reality, along with the "Mother Virus", just what portion of the virus needed to be modified and what the "source animal" is.

As far as using HIV to reduce the global population, it is NOT a very effective tool.  The incubation time is far too long, it takes too long to kill the host, and the means of transmission rather unreliable since HIV can be stopped by just using some self control and simple preventative measures. A filovirus would be a much better tool IMHO.  Rather contagious, symptoms look like just a bad cold, tends to kill quickly and some types can even be transmitted by airborne particles.

[Guest]

It is a tribute to the special forces guys that they did'nt light the f****r up. I am sure they were tempted. Oh well, I guess there is a reason it's called the third world.