Author Topic: Huckabee on fox  (Read 19818 times)

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2008, 08:32:05 PM »
....you're joking....right?

Please tell me you're joking?

Time and again we see parts of the constitution ignored to further an ever growing government filled with idiots handing out bread and circuses.  Because they know that by handing out that bread they will get more votes because any idiot that breaths gets a vote.

This country was much better run when people who had an actual stake in its success had the vote.  The founding fathers knew this that's why it was done that way.

As said, it was to restrictive sure.  They were products of their time in some respects, it happens.  But there needs to be some measure beyond breathing and breeding that counts someone as eligible to vote and determine how our country is run.  It's been obvious for years that it isn't working and we are being run into the ground by an ever growing amount of leaches who have a say in which juicy vein they can latch onto.

It needs to change.  It needs to stop.

Hell make it any citizen, over the age of 18, who is literate, has a full time job or attends school full time, and throw in pays taxes (in the case of a job and not full time school).  That would be a good starting point.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Nitrogen

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Who could it be?
    • @c0t0d0s2 / Twitter.
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2008, 08:35:41 PM »

Why should the vote of a welfare mother who pumps out future gang bangers count as much as that of a law abiding and productive citizen?


You cannot be serious.  Are you serious?
Is THIS what my country is coming to?  Seriously considering denying the vote to people we don't like??

Because, in America, each vote is equal.  The day that stops, is the day this country is truly lost.
It's bad enough that people convicted of felonies, that serve out their sentences can't vote.

How would YOU feel if the upcoming Obama administration decided that gun owners "are too violent to be allowed to vote"?
How would YOU feel if the upcoming Obama administration decided that Christians are "too deluded in fantasy" to be allowed to vote?
That's just as asinine.
יזכר לא עד פעם
Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2008, 08:39:18 PM »
it's not about people we don't like.  It's about not handing the reins to people voting for the biggest welfare check or payout to their special interest group.

An equal vote to each and every man, woman, and the occasional illegal immigrant and person who is living impaired isn't exactly a principle this county was found on either.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2008, 11:32:20 PM »
Quote
it's not about people we don't like.  It's about not handing the reins to people voting for the biggest welfare check or payout to their special interest group.

So employees in government-subsidized businesses should also not be able to vote, according to you? What about military veterans that may vote to increase their pensions (that's part of what brought the downfall of the Roman Republic)? What about old people on Social Security?

Quote
This country was much better run when people who had an actual stake in its success had the vote.  The founding fathers knew this that's why it was done that way.

Thomas Jefferson wanted to open up the franchise, actually. The founders were not united in their opinion on this issue, and nowhere does the Constitution mention franchise requirements of any kind, except that everybody over the age of 18 must be allowed to vote.

Quote
by an ever growing amount of leaches who have a say in which juicy vein they can latch onto.

The amount of welfare recipients in the United States fell 57% in the last 12 years.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

ArmedBear

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 01:01:20 AM »
Quote
So employees in government-subsidized businesses should also not be able to vote, according to you?

I'm not sure. I've seen some things that it sounds like you haven't.

I do think that, in the real world, conflicts of interest can land people in legal trouble and sometimes even in jail. So why should someone be allowed to vote himself money?

I just don't know exactly how to deal with implementation.

I don't think that someone who is a net tax recipient has any particular right to vote. The Constitution limited voting rights to property owners, i.e. people who owned a stake in the country and who didn't have the same motivation to use the voting booth to take away property rights.

Note that this has nothing to do with ideology (i.e. gun owners).

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 01:09:10 AM »
I'm not sure. I've seen some things that it sounds like you haven't.

I do think that, in the real world, conflicts of interest can land people in legal trouble and sometimes even in jail. So why should someone be allowed to vote himself money?

I just don't know exactly how to deal with implementation.

I don't think that someone who is a net tax recipient has any particular right to vote. The Constitution limited voting rights to property owners, i.e. people who owned a stake in the country and who didn't have the same motivation to use the voting booth to take away property rights.

Note that this has nothing to do with ideology (i.e. gun owners).

Does this mean that no shareholder in the stock market, or in a corporation that has a net tax of zero, should be allowed to vote?

What about any holder of an interest in a business that supplies services to the government priced at amounts higher than the net tax outflow from that year?

Seems you'd be cutting most of the property owners out of the equation with this formula, but anyway, the original enfranchisement requirements were clearly not infallible and have rightly been expanded over the years.

If you don't like your government having to deal with the votes of all its citizens, it would seem that Latin America is more your model for a place to live.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2008, 05:41:58 AM »
Quote
So employees in government-subsidized businesses should also not be able to vote, according to you? What about military veterans that may vote to increase their pensions (that's part of what brought the downfall of the Roman Republic)? What about old people on Social Security?
If you are working and productive, don't care who you work for or how much "net tax" you pay.  The key is a working productive citizen.  Veterans and those on social security?  If they have already paid their dues then sure let them keep their vote.  Those temporarily unemployed when an election rules around should be able to vote also.  They key here is to avoid leaches who care about nothing but socialism and a bigger welfare check away from the polls.  They don't vote in the best interests of the country, the market, their rights, etc.  They vote for one thing only, the biggest government handout. 

Quote
Thomas Jefferson wanted to open up the franchise, actually. The founders were not united in their opinion on this issue, and nowhere does the Constitution mention franchise requirements of any kind, except that everybody over the age of 18 must be allowed to vote.
No one said, ever, that all the founders were in 100% agreement on everything.

Quote
The amount of welfare recipients in the United States fell 57% in the last 12 years.
HA.  Define welfare on that statistic.

Quote
Does this mean that no shareholder in the stock market, or in a corporation that has a net tax of zero, should be allowed to vote?

What about any holder of an interest in a business that supplies services to the government priced at amounts higher than the net tax outflow from that year?

Seems you'd be cutting most of the property owners out of the equation with this formula, but anyway, the original enfranchisement requirements were clearly not infallible and have rightly been expanded over the years.
Of course they should, they are working productive citizens.  And no, they weren't infallible.  Thats why women and people of all colors can now vote.  They key was, and should remain, being a productive citizen who has a stake in the whole thing not collapsing.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Nitrogen

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Who could it be?
    • @c0t0d0s2 / Twitter.
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2008, 08:19:00 AM »
They key was, and should remain, being a productive citizen who has a stake in the whole thing not collapsing.

Please explain how this is not a violation of the 15th amendment to the constitution.

You people scare the excrement out of me sometimes.  Limiting who has the right to vote...
יזכר לא עד פעם
Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2008, 10:45:46 AM »
Please explain how this is not a violation of the 15th amendment to the constitution.

You people scare the excrement out of me sometimes.  Limiting who has the right to vote...

Folks not understanding the COTUS scares me more, especially the easy stuff like the 15th Amendment:
Quote from: COTUS
AMENDMENT XV
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870.

Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude--

Section 2.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

I am wholly in favor of some sort of property ownership requirement, with "property" defined rather loosely:
Real estate
Equities, bonds, etc. from American companies
Cash in American bank
Other financial instruments from American sources

The vast majority of Americans who work or had worked (retirees) would qualify, given home ownership rates, the ubiquity of 401K & IRA accounts, and the like.

IOW, folks who have a stake in America as something other than a teat to suck.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Pb

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,906
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2008, 01:52:31 PM »
Huckabee has a history of idiocy.  The worst I can recall was when he sent a sappy letter to a convicted rapist in prison, because the rapist supposedly had changed his ways.  Later on, the rapist was released, and proceded to commit other crimes, including murder.

He also called anyone who opposed in-state college tuition for illegal immigrants "racist".

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2008, 02:37:50 PM »
Please explain how this is not a violation of the 15th amendment to the constitution.

You people scare the excrement out of me sometimes.  Limiting who has the right to vote...

Let us briefly examine the 15th Amendment-

Quote
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

There are three and only three things that the 15th prohibits.  Exclusion based on race, color, or previous condition of servitude.  In other words someone can not be denied based on their nationality or geographic background (provided of course they are now a US citizen).  While similar, it also specifically prohibits exclusion due to color.  Lastly, it prohibits exclusion due to previous servitude, IE you used to be a slave.  This ones more or less a moot point these days as I can't recall the last former slave I've run into.

No where in the above does it say we can not have standards on who votes to insure productive members of society are choosing how the country is run.  And not those voting for a bigger piece of the pie they didn't help bake.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

ArmedBear

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2008, 03:06:21 PM »
Quote
the original enfranchisement requirements were clearly not infallible and have rightly been expanded over the years.

#1 says nothing.

#2 is purely your opinion. Maybe they've been expanded, and maybe it was right to expand them; that doesn't necessarily mean they were "expanded rightly." To show this, one would have to elaborate; your unsupported and non-specific feeling about the matter are worth, well, nothing.

WRT property ownership: many states have provisions that only someone who owns property in a particular district may vote on certain issues regarding that district -- generally such things as infrastructure and fire department taxes and bond issues. This doesn't seem to be a problem.

You're assuming that there's a system of universal suffrage on every issue, and that's simply not true in the present-day United States. Interestingly, it's not a problem, or at least one you've noticed.

That leads me to the rest of your post.

I'd say that, in some instances, the answer is, "Yes, that's what it means."

For example: Employees, shareholders, union members, contractors, bureaucrats, et al. could most certainly be excluded from voting on issues that would cause them to benefit from a government expenditure above and beyond the "public good" that the general population would ostensibly enjoy.

Member of the teacher's union wouldn't be allowed to vote for school funding, for example, because in that particular role, they work for us, and we decide how to fund schools. Highway contractors wouldn't be allowed to vote for highway construction, because the rest of us should decide whether we need it, not those whose pockets it directly fills. The list goes on. And if it's true that we shouldn't allow those who work to make money directly from government spending to vote for said spending, then why would we allow those who don't work in order to receive government spending? Let those who pay, decide.

There could be a heirarchy, e.g. all citizens vote for the President. All citizens who are residents of a certain state for X amount of time get to vote for Senators; residents of Congressional districts would vote for House reps. I'm not sure how to handle residency; in transient areas, I would question whether living somewhere for 30 days, with no intention of staying, really should give someone full local voting rights.

I lived in a college town, for example, with tens of thousands of voters who really had no ties whatsoever to the community, and had no particular concerns about the long-term consequences of their votes. While they should get to vote locally for President, obviously, I can't see how they ought to be allowed to decide on local bond issues that will cost money for 30 years, but may also provide a service that lasts essentially forever, or not. What interest do they have in voting "yes" if they'll be long gone when the service comes on-line, or in voting "no", when they'll never have to pay for it?

Regardless, as issues become more granular and candidates more local, the bar for voting could be raised, to avoid conflicts of interest.

This would probably be a logistical nightmare. However, it's hardly immoral.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 03:22:15 PM by ArmedBear »

nobody's_hero

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 189
  • Fringe (Constitutionalist)
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2008, 04:32:13 PM »
Can we please put this voting-disfranchisement-thing in the bin of things that will never happen—into the pile with the 'return to the gold-standard' and the 'armed revolution'?  =|

I think what we do need is a massive education campaign, coupled with practicing-what-we-preach, so to speak.

ArmedBear

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2008, 05:30:03 PM »
Quote
Can we please put this voting-disfranchisement-thing in the bin of things that will never happen

Sure.

However, I don't agree that all "we do need is a massive education campaign, coupled with practicing-what-we-preach."

Here's what I propose.

We look at the original intents behind enfranchising white property-owning males 21 or older, then consider what we might need to do, politically, to restore the necessary protections that this was intended to provide.

1. White -- bad. This was intended to keep slaves and former slaves from voting against slavery. BAD BAD BAD. This original intent has been disposed of, and good riddance to it!

2. Property-owning. This was intended to keep people from voting themselves the property of others. It was likely believed that property owners would be far less likely to want eminent domain abuse, or de facto eminent domain abuse, such as we now see with private property being appropriated as nature preserves at the owners' expense.

So, what do we do to provide similar protection for property rights, with an extended franchise?

3. Males. In a time before birth control and popular above-board homosexuality, this effectively meant that each household got a vote, more or less. The census counted population, not households, and also slaves * 3/5.

This was flawed to begin with, of course, for all sorts of reasons. It seems to me that, if certain people are allowed to vote, Congress should be apportioned according to the number of voters, or households, or something, not the number of children in the area. Maybe we SHOULD have one household, one vote, but then we should also have Congressional representation according to that number, not the population. Maybe. I'm not at all sure about this one, or what to do with it.

Obviously, women are often heads of households, and people have children far later than in the past, if at all in some cases.

I'm not proposing we disenfranchise women; I am asking, though, was there some merit to a vote-per-household system, and is there something we ought to do to compensate for the loss of this check-and-balance?

4. 21 or older. I understand the idea that, if 18 year olds can be drafted, then they ought to be given a voice. Makes sense to me. On the other hand, I have met few 18 year olds who know enough to vote. They know what they've been told. I also have a moral problem with the different ages at which adulthood supposedly starts. 18 to vote, 21 to drink, 21 to get a handgun, 18 to get the death penalty, not to mention the various ridiculous variations of the "age of consent" in different states, sometimes different between the sexes.

We really ought to decide when someone becomes an adult. Or, if we can't, perhaps one shouldn't be allowed to vote if one is still being deducted as a dependent on a parent's tax return?

Or maybe, should we have universal military service, like Switzerland or Austria? Might that mitigate some of the perceived problem during the Viet Nam era?

Again, I think there might be some serious consideration to be done here.

My point is not to disenfranchise a bunch of people. My point is to offer food for thought: if you change one part of a system, you need to consider the consequences elsewhere in that system. If they're good, then leave them. But if not, ignoring them just creates a new set of problems.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 05:55:54 PM by ArmedBear »

freedom lover

  • resident high school student
  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 745
  • "Who is the Coon?"
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2008, 05:55:41 PM »
Quote
Or maybe, should we have universal military service, like Switzerland or Austria?

Thats a joke! If military service ever became required, even if there was just a small draft, Canada would have a whole lot of new residents.

Most young men are to self centered and scared of dying to fight for a government they don't trust. They lack a love of their country. I know, I go to school.

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Heinlein
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »
I'm surprised no one has introduced Heinlein's (fictional) proposal.  Well, one of them, anyway.  The Starship Troopers solution.

I am of two minds there, but the essence of the idea is to exclude the professional freeloaders and empower those who are willing to risk something.

People who depend on the "free lunch" idea (yes, that was a different book) and who don't have any reason to care what it costs should probably not get a voice in things like, oh, whether there should be a free lunch.

"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2008, 06:48:40 PM »
I don't think even Heinlein took that one really seriously.

The values good for military service are not good for civilian society. Think of it - do we wear uniforms in civilian life? :)


Quote
Or maybe, should we have universal military service, like Switzerland or Austria?

As someone who has experienced universal military service: NO.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,428
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2008, 06:57:15 PM »
Huckabee has a history of idiocy.  The worst I can recall was when he sent a sappy letter to a convicted rapist in prison, because the rapist supposedly had changed his ways.  Later on, the rapist was released, and proceded to commit other crimes, including murder.

I don't have much interest in defending Huckabee, but was the letter somehow to blame for the rapist's release? 

What was the content of this "sappy letter," and how was it idiotic? 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

ArmedBear

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2008, 07:00:10 PM »
Quote
Thats a joke! If military service ever became required, even if there was just a small draft, Canada would have a whole lot of new residents.

That would be a problem because? The United States has a surplus of applicants to immigrate here. It's not like we'd have a falling population; we'd just have a population of people who choose to be Americans.

See, the people who threaten to leave the country, say, Alec Baldwin, are nonessential personnel. As in, oooh, what a threat!

It's not like we're all shaking in our boots because a bunch of lazy college students threaten to pack up their bongs and move north. Contrary to what your profs may tell you, our society can do without 100,000 sociology majors.

That's not a reason, in itself, for universal military service. However, it's no reason NOT to do it, either.

Quote
Most young men are to self centered and scared of dying to fight for a government they don't trust. They lack a love of their country. I know, I go to school.

You're assuming this would not have any collateral effects. This is never true.

WRT trust, if we had universal military service, then there'd probably be more trust in our government, because people with more at stake would get more involved. There would be more participation in the voting process. I haven't heard that Switzerland has the widespread distrust that we have. It's been democratic for twice as long, also.

WRT fear of dying, that's an interesting one. However, I think it has to do with trust and participation in government. If people on the whole would be afraid of dying on a foreign battlefield, they'd participate in government more. Then, they'd have more trust that they'd only have to fight if it were truly a necessary war (i.e. die here, or maybe die there). Sure, people are afraid of dying in a war. However, if war happens when we're afraid of being killed in our beds, that fear is at least partially cancelled out by equal fear of dying because one didn't fight in the war.

WRT love of country, that's a two-way street. Those who don't participate can't love something, really.

Quote
The values good for military service are not good for civilian society.

Some are, some aren't. But did the WW II Generation come back from the War unable to live civilian lives? Seems to me they hung up their uniforms and proceeded to build the largest, most innovative, most successful civilian economy in the history of humanity.

Quote
Think of it - do we wear uniforms in civilian life?

Uh, seems to me we sure do, and I'm not talking about blue collar workers, either. A business suit is a ridiculous thing, from any practical standpoint, and every bit a uniform.

Again, I'm not saying that I know all the answers. I just think this stuff is worth thinking about.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 07:12:03 PM by ArmedBear »

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2008, 07:31:07 PM »
Quote
then there'd probably be more trust in our government

What I learned from my Army service:

1.The government will lie to you, humiliate you, treat you like a complete subhuman, not for any discernible reason but simply because  a soldier just like you puts your form in a different stack.
2.Everybody operates on the idea that 'the government is screwing us, let's screw it right back.
3.If you pose as a 'problem soldier', are ill, or otherwise incompetent, you will be shifted into a position of less work for the same pay. Or you might get kicked out of the army. That's even better.

I don't know, maybe it'll be different when instituted in America, but my army service didn't make me trust the government any more.

Not that increased trust in government is a ]good thing.

Quote
A business suit is a ridiculous thing, from any practical standpoint, and every bit a uniform.

And few people actually wear them, outside of formal occasions. Even with a business suit, you're allowed variations, like a different color of tie, jacket, etc.  However, at least where I live, most people, even bank clerks or business people, do not really wear suits – most people wear jeans/t-shirt combos.

The point is, the military structure is un-individualist by definition. That's what you need, in a structure that may need, tomorrow, to sacrifice the life of a soldier or an entire unit to delay an enemy and to win a battle. The military cannot operate if people do not obey orders instantly rapidly – that's just a fact of life.

If you have not been in a military, I suggest you watch Full Metal Jacket – while, in my experience, real drill instructors are far milder than Sgt. Hartmann, it still points out to what DIs do. The process is harsh by necessity – it is needed to accustom the recruit to a system of iron discipline.

Do not get me wrong – the discipline of the military, it's uniforms, its drill instructors, even the infamous military bureaucracy is probably the only way to fight and win and conventional war. For some people it is a good thing. But it is not the sort of stuff that we want our civilian society to look like.

As a matter of fact, there is abook out there titled, IIRC. “On the Psychology of military incompetence” (some of the biblophiles on this forum will help me with a better reference, I am sure). It argues that the militarist mind, though it is attracted by its nature to positions of command, is also by its nature less competent to give creative answers to problems. I'm not sure that this is true, but I do know one thing:

I would not want Sgt. Hartmann to be running society.


Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,428
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2008, 10:49:36 PM »
More than half of the delegates went to McCain. He did not have a plurality of the votes, he had a majority. Romney and the others endorsing him was just the icing on the cake.

This is not the fault of the people who voted for Ron Paul, Mitt Romney, or any of the other candidates. It's the fault of the people who voted for John McCain.


I've been going over the figures provided by Real Clear Politics, and McCain's majority was truly overwhelming - 1563 delegates.  His two closest competitors did not even break three hundred.  Ron Paul earned 29.  This reminds us that America is not like the Parliamentary democracies of Europe or Israel.  "Third parties" do not fare well here.  I don't quite understand why that is, but I was taught that it has to do with our lack of "proportional representation" and other weird, European ideas.* 

I've said more than once that we got McCain because conservative votes were divided among a number of conservative (or pseudo-conservative) candidates.  Having gone through the numbers (at least those available at RCP) I think there is some truth to that, although not so much as I had thought.  I've compared the delegates pledged to McCain, versus the combined total of delegates for Romney, Huckabee, and Paul (hereafter referred to, somewhat inaccurately, as The Conservatives).  Real Clear Politics only lists those four candidates, so keep in mind it's not a complete tally.

Prior to Super Tuesday, McCain had only a 10-delegate lead over The Conservatives, rather than the 111-54 point lead he had over Romney alone.  (Even with that momentum, however, McCain's good showing was largely due to vast margins in the blue states of California, Illinois and New York, which gave him 313 delegates all together.)  Without the air of electability from his huge lead over a divided Republican field, McCain would have much less momentum going into Super Tuesday.  On that day, McCain won 580 over The Conservatives 394.  With his numbers at 680 over Romney's 217 and Huck's 167, the momentum was now clearly on his side.  But if he had faced only one conservative challenger, the numbers would have been 680-495.  Still a decisive lead, but not an overwhelming one.  And it would have been smaller yet, had he gone into Super Tuesday up 10, rather than having twice the delegates of his nearest challenger.  Without such a dramatic lead, his gains after Tuesday would have been smaller, and we might be watching a Romney-Obama or a Huckabee-Obama race, with a Republican base much more enthused than it is today. 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/republican_delegate_count.html


*The allusion to third parties is not exactly clear, I suppose, as we are discussing intra-party politics.  The point is, the U.S. is a winner-take-all, first-past-the-post system.  It is not the sort of system that obtains in Europe or other parliamentary regimes, where small, more ideologically-pure parties can coalesce to share power in the legislature.  As I said, I don't understand the mechanics, but I can see the results.  All that counts here is winning.  Ideology gets you nowhere, if your candidate doesn't look viable. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 11:08:54 PM by Mr. Tactical pants »
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2008, 11:07:02 PM »
Thats a joke! If military service ever became required, even if there was just a small draft, Canada would have a whole lot of new residents.

That's a good deal for us, IMO.



I don't think even Heinlein took that one really seriously.

The values good for military service are not good for civilian society. Think of it - do we wear uniforms in civilian life? :)


As someone who has experienced universal military service: NO.

I view the workplace dress code a uniform, just without the advantage of decent style/color coordination.  Maybe you have to work with engineers to understand what I mean.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2008, 03:45:59 AM »
Quote
Maybe you have to work with engineers to understand what I mean.

I do sometimes work with engineers.

And there's a difference between even the harsh dress codes that lawyers, for instance, adhere to, and 'YOU MUST WEAR YOUR SHIRT IN THIS PRECISE WAY OR GO TO PRISON', and of course, you have a choice of not working in these professions. I work in one where I get paid rather well, and I don't have to wear a uniform - or anything at all - during work, because I work from home. That's because I'm a civilian and I get to choose my job and my outfit.

Quote
That's a good deal for us, IMO.

You seriously think that a draftee scrubbing floors somewhere against his will is more useful to society than a college graduate?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2008, 06:32:25 AM »

The values good for military service are not good for civilian society. Think of it - do we wear uniforms in civilian life? :)


I take it you've never been to Starbucks.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Pb

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,906
Re: Huckabee on fox
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2008, 09:04:58 AM »
Here's an article about Huckabee and rapist/murderer:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-huckabee8dec08,0,540525.story

He would have been a terrible choice for a presidential contender.