I've become a lot more restrictionist when it comes to immigration.

[just Warren]

In the past I was okay with illegals being here as they made up a portion of my customer base and for the most part were not hurting anyone. Of course there were exceptions..

However I keep seeing more and more credible accounts of voter fraud by illegals. I used to brush these off as I thought our system was strong enough to exclude most of them and the results were not affected. Well that was before in the last year or so I finally realized that there is nothing the left/progressives won't do or say to gain power. I knew they were bad but I thought that maybe there was something deep down that could be reasoned with. Nope.

I knew they lied about guns and business owners and other things but I was taking them on a case-by-case basis. However now with the election of Trump and the unceasing lying and creation of things out of whole cloth it became clear there is no subject they can be trusted with as these are their standard tactics for everything.

Cheating and lying is all they do and so of course it extends to the voting system. I knew they cheated in other areas that they controlled and I knew that even here in California they cheated but what I didn't realize was how big of a problem it actually is. Not that one can learn that from the major media of course. As they are on the left and benefit from progressives being in power.

So if there are enough people voting illegally to change election results, and there are, then these folks have to go. And since we don't know who voted, they all have to go. Illegals that is, people who have jumped through the proper hoops to reside here that we can't prove voted illegally get to stay. I'm not against foreigners being here.

Being a libertarian I did not spend a lot of time on more right-wing sites for a variety of reasons so I've obviously missed/ignored/dismissed this conversation that has been going on for a long time. Of course several of you here talked about it but I ignored you as well. Mea culpa. Finally I've come around.



http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/did-votes-by-noncitizens-cost-trump-the-2016-popular-vote-sure-looks-that-way/



What I'm really curious about is would California turn red again once the illegals were pushed out?

[Monkeyleg]

I'd like to see all illegals deported and, while it's impossible, I'd like to have every Muslim in the US deported.

[Scout26]

I'd like to see all illegals deported and, while it's impossible, I'd like to have every Muslim in the US deported.

Leftists as well. There are enough Socialist/Socialist leaning countries for them to pick from.  They don't need to screw up this one.

[Hawkmoon]

What I'm really curious about is would California turn red again once the illegals were pushed out?

Probably not. Don't overlook the pervasive influence of Hollyweird and the Silicone Valley.

[MechAg94]

What I'm really curious about is would California turn red again once the illegals were pushed out?

I doubt it.  But I would bet it would be a lot closer than it is.  This stuff makes you wonder about the huge numbers of Democrat voters in certain counties in California in the last election. 

On the whole, once someone decides the ends justify the means, they can apply that justification to EVERYTHING. 

[MechAg94]

The other part that bugs me with these Pro-Illegal Democrats:  They absolutely refuse to recognize any limits.  When it comes to the hard working illegal immigrant that is honest and sending money back home, many people are sympathetic.  However, a lot of these people are gang members, known criminals, been deported multiple times, and have criminal records here.  Yet the Democrats in these sanctuary cities will still refuse to hold them and oppose any effort to round them up.  

[grampster]

The Democrat Establishment, and I trickle that down to the left MSM, Hollyweird and even much of the local D machinery, is a lot like Islam; Taqiyya.  They lie if it furthers and protects their "religion".

[Perd Hapley]

 However, a lot of these people are gang members, known criminals, been deported multiple times, and have criminal records here.

And some, I assume, are good people. 

[Pb]

I'm not a libertarian, but you can't build a libertarian-ish society with free flow of voters into a country.... as most immigrants will be extremely pro-welfare state.  A country with a "libertarian" immigration policy would produce a nanny state, of which California is a preview.

[Jamisjockey]

Voter fraud
Identity theft so they can get get legit jobs that do residency checks
And having spent time around large communities of illegals...that in of itself is enough.  They trash neighborhoods, drive without insurance, and aren't making any attempt at being decent citizens.

I'm a restrictive libertarian.  First, we dismantle the welfare state, then we can address immigration.  You can't have one without the other.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I've honestly never understood why anyone is cool with illegal immigration or the whole open boarders part of the libertarian party.
Illegal immigration is just a big problem on so many levels. Even the nice people who are just trying to make a better life for their families at home are ultimately hurting us since that money is not being spent *here*. And as for leading to other criminal activity, Mech forgot that some of them are also a pool of potential victims that are difficult to track. Human trafficking, exploitation and other abuses that cause problems here that our authorities have to clean up after.
Limited resources and if businesses can't find people already here to do the work, then that's what the make visas for.

As far as the open boarders thing, that works fine if all countries are open boarders, but if it's just us... I just don't understand how that works.

[MechAg94]

One of the other negatives about open boarders and illegal immigration is exactly what we see.  Mexico is a crap hole and not getting any better.  What do people there do?  They don't fix it.  They come here.  Mexico encourages them to come here. 

[MechAg94]

Voter fraud
Identity theft so they can get get legit jobs that do residency checks
And having spent time around large communities of illegals...that in of itself is enough.  They trash neighborhoods, drive without insurance, and aren't making any attempt at being decent citizens.

And they get away with it in sanctuary cities because the local cops know that anything they do will be pointless.  

As we noted on past threads, we are creating second class citizens to be exploited and the longer we let it go on, the more painful it will be for everyone.  

[MechAg94]

I guess I have strong opinions on the subject.  I don't think we are helping them or us by encouraging or turning a blind eye to illegal immigration. 

[Hawkmoon]

When it comes to the hard working illegal immigrant that is honest and sending money back home, many people are sympathetic.

Not me. First, even if hard working, those illegals are doing work that would be done (or not done) by someone legally in the U.S. if there were no illegals to hire. Second, and perhaps more important, every dollar those illegals send home is a dollar that's permanently taken out of the U.S. economy. And THAT's a problem.

[230RN]

Voter fraud
Identity theft so they can get get legit jobs that do residency checks
And having spent time around large communities of illegals...that in of itself is enough.  They trash neighborhoods, drive without insurance, and aren't making any attempt at being decent citizens.

I'm a restrictive libertarian.  First, we dismantle the welfare state, then we can address immigration.  You can't have one without the other.

I suspect, but would welcome a challenge on it, that if we address illegal immigration first, it will reduce the fraudulent burden on the welfare system enough to allow it to continue in its noble goal in helping those citizens who cannot help themselves, completely apart from individual charity.

Long sentence, but I had to put it all that way.

Terry, 230RN

[De Selby]

I'd like to see all illegals deported and, while it's impossible, I'd like to have every Muslim in the US deported.

To protect religious and political freedoms we absolutely must expel religious and political minorities.

[dogmush]

I see it as more of a "Rule of Law" issue.  I agree that our current immigration system is screwed, and we should reform how we legally bring new folks into this country.  But it IS the current system, and you don't get to just bypass laws you don't like.  There's a TON of laws in the US right now, that are part of a screwed up system, that would make life better for my family and I to ignore.  But we don't, because it's important that we live in a country where the laws mean something, and are applied equally to all.

So in addition to making a lower caste of citizens for the Dem's to exploit, ignoring illegal immigration, or worse granting it legitimacy, ala "Undocumented" wordplay, chips away at one of the bedrocks that keeps our nation stable, and allows us to live with such diverse cultures and pretty low levels of angst and violence. 

Basically: People need to follow the Law, until they get it changed.  Not disregard the parts they don't like.

[Scout26]

To protect religious and political freedoms we absolutely must expel religious and political minorities.

Last I checked Catholics (which most Mexicans are) and Democrats (which most become once the "arrive" in these United States) are NOT minorities.   You argument is invalid. Thanks for playing though...

[De Selby]

I see it as more of a "Rule of Law" issue.  I agree that our current immigration system is screwed, and we should reform how we legally bring new folks into this country.  But it IS the current system, and you don't get to just bypass laws you don't like.  There's a TON of laws in the US right now, that are part of a screwed up system, that would make life better for my family and I to ignore.  But we don't, because it's important that we live in a country where the laws mean something, and are applied equally to all.

So in addition to making a lower caste of citizens for the Dem's to exploit, ignoring illegal immigration, or worse granting it legitimacy, ala "Undocumented" wordplay, chips away at one of the bedrocks that keeps our nation stable, and allows us to live with such diverse cultures and pretty low levels of angst and violence. 

Basically: People need to follow the Law, until they get it changed.  Not disregard the parts they don't like.

When did it become illegal to be Muslim?

I think adding little nuggets like that to talk of illegal immigration sure does give the idea that this is about more than just following thre law

[Hawkmoon]

To protect religious and political freedoms we absolutely must expel religious and political minorities.

The legality of one's residency is unrelated to either religion or politics. If someone is in a country illegally, one has no right to participate in any way in the country's political process. We're not talking about expelling them because of their religion or their politics, we're talking about expelling them because they have no right to be here. And we're not singling out Muslims.

My late wife was from a South American country. I could travel there freely ... for up to 90 days per visit. We never tested it, but I probably could have overstayed for some time without being caught or penalized. But, whether within the 90-day window or beyond, should I be allowed to vote in their elections? Should I be allowed to lobby for or against their candidates, or their laws? I think not. As a visitor, I was a guest in their country. I had no legitimate say in how they ran their country, nor should I have.

The same applies to people from other countries who come to the U.S.

[Hawkmoon]

When did it become illegal to be Muslim?

I think adding little nuggets like that to talk of illegal immigration sure does give the idea that this is about more than just following thre law

Who (besides you) said it's illegal to be a Muslim?

[dogmush]

When did it become illegal to be Muslim?

I think adding little nuggets like that to talk of illegal immigration sure does give the idea that this is about more than just following thre law

WTF are you talking about?  This entire thread is about illegal immigrants.  Which, kinda by definition, is illegal.  Monkeyleg is the only poster other than you to mention Muslims, and he specifically separated them from the "illegal" tag.  That's what the conjunction in his sentence is for, to join the two separate groups. No one said it was illegal to be Muslim.

GTFO with your baiting and BS arguing things that no one said.

[MechAg94]

He quoted a ranting comment from Monkeyleg about deporting all Muslims and of course he acts like all us support that. 

[De Selby]

WTF are you talking about?  This entire thread is about illegal immigrants.  Which, kinda by definition, is illegal.  Monkeyleg is the only poster other than you to mention Muslims, and he specifically separated them from the "illegal" tag.  That's what the conjunction in his sentence is for, to join the two separate groups. No one said it was illegal to be Muslim.

GTFO with your baiting and BS arguing things that no one said.

You're missing the the point.

Opponents of a rational immigration policy frequently say "actually you just don't want unpopular races and religions here, it's got nothing to do with the law."  And comments like "while we're kicking out the illegals let's add in Muslims" tend to prove them right.

There'd be a lot less hype and controversy if support for enforcing basic immigration laws didn't come with stuff like that.