Author Topic: The Return of Debtors' Prisons  (Read 3819 times)

Paddy

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2007, 02:11:29 PM »
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Can you think of an analogous situation in any other case, where the court orders a payment of one kind or another and can jail someone?
Let me ask you a question.  Do you think there is a higher moral obligation to support children than to repay a credit card debt?  And don't try to tell me the court has no business making moral judgements; that's exactly what most law is based on.

Barbara

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2007, 02:57:23 PM »
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I am not aware of any other circumstance where a person owing a financial obligation goes to jail if he does not/cannot pay.
Why should this one be different?

Because its effectively child neglect. If I have a child and that child lives with me and I don't provide basic food, clothing, and shelter, I can be jailed. I see non-payment of child support as the same thing.

Somekid, I guess I did..I confused your friend with the guy in the original story. Sorry about that.

crt360

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2007, 02:59:44 PM »
Here, the failure to support the kids is a "go to jail" felony by itself - you don't have wait around to be found in contempt for ignoring an order to pay.

From the Texas Penal Code:

§ 25.05. CRIMINAL NONSUPPORT.  (a) An individual commits
an offense if the individual intentionally or knowingly fails to
provide support for the individual's child younger than 18 years of
age, or for the individual's child who is the subject of a court
order requiring the individual to support the child.
   (b)  For purposes of this section, "child" includes a child
born out of wedlock whose paternity has either been acknowledged by
the actor or has been established in a civil suit under the Family
Code or the law of another state.
   (c)  Under this section, a conviction may be had on the
uncorroborated testimony of a party to the offense.
   (d)  It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor could not provide support for the actor's
child.
   (e)  The pendency of a prosecution under this section does
not affect the power of a court to enter an order for child support
under the Family Code.
   (f)  An offense under this section is a state jail felony.                     
For entertainment purposes only.

SomeKid

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2007, 03:11:20 PM »
Barb, no apology needed. charby earlier (correctly) noted you deserved some respect, I think I was a bit less kind in my word choices. Hope we have no hard feelings.

Either way, you brought up a good point I wanted to ask about.

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If I have a child and that child lives with me and I don't provide basic food, clothing, and shelter, I can be jailed.

Keep in mind, I have no kids, and aside from seeing men butchered by the system, have little first-hand contact, and this is curiosity; that said...

If you were so poor you truely could not afford it, wouldn't there be some kind of food-stamp system there you could take advantage of to ensure your kid was fed, and wouldn't you be able to avoid jail by proving you had no money to do these things? Or is being poor really a jailable offense?

The Rabbi

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2007, 03:34:58 PM »
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Can you think of an analogous situation in any other case, where the court orders a payment of one kind or another and can jail someone?
Let me ask you a question.  Do you think there is a higher moral obligation to support children than to repay a credit card debt?  And don't try to tell me the court has no business making moral judgements; that's exactly what most law is based on.

What was wrong with my question that you didnt answer it?
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The Rabbi

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2007, 03:39:45 PM »
Quote
I am not aware of any other circumstance where a person owing a financial obligation goes to jail if he does not/cannot pay.
Why should this one be different?

Because its effectively child neglect. If I have a child and that child lives with me and I don't provide basic food, clothing, and shelter, I can be jailed. I see non-payment of child support as the same thing.


Bully for you.  But your opinion is irrelevant here.  What is the legal basis for jailing one private individual who fails to honor a financial obligation to another private individual?
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Paddy

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2007, 04:02:13 PM »
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What was wrong with my question that you didnt answer it?
  Well I did answer it.  You just don't want to hear it.  You seem to be looking for some legalistic rationale for not jailing someone who repeatedly refuses to support their children.   You seem to think that walking away from a child, a life you started, is the same as walking away from your credit card bill.  I don't understand that thinking.  Are you honestly saying there is a moral equivalence?  The extension of your thinking is that sex has no consequences.  So, if you get aids or some other std, you would probably think you're the victim?  You honestly cannot see the moral obligation to support (and protect) life you've created?  The fact that child support even has to be ordered by a court indicates there's something highly dysfunctional with the parents in the first place.   A society that cannot protect its women and children is doomed.

Barbara

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2007, 04:15:28 PM »
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Bully for you.  But your opinion is irrelevant here.  What is the legal basis for jailing one private individual who fails to honor a financial obligation to another private individual?

Because its not simply a financial obligation. Its a requirement not to abuse or neglect your children. How is it any different than if I failed to provide food for my kid when he's sitting in front of me?

What crawled up your butt today? Good lord.

Barbara

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2007, 04:21:20 PM »
Quote
If you were so poor you truely could not afford it, wouldn't there be some kind of food-stamp system there you could take advantage of to ensure your kid was fed, and wouldn't you be able to avoid jail by proving you had no money to do these things? Or is being poor really a jailable offense?

I would guess so..but then again, I think you have to be flat out destitute to get welfare..I think its like a couple thousand a year in income? I really don't know.

But there are a lot of working poor people out there..what if I had to make a choice between say paying for gas to go to work and feeding my kids..or hell, what if I wanted to spend my money on booze instead of feeding my kid..why should I be obligated to support them when there are other things I want or need the money for?

We both know neither of those scenarios are a good reason for not feeding your children..if you can't pay for gas, you get a second job or pick up bottles or ask your church for help or something..but not feeding them isn't an option. If you have kids, you've sort of given up your right to spend money on anything if they aren't provided for..even if it makes your life difficult.

FWIW, one of the people who didn't pay me child support was a woman. Deadbeats come in all forms. 

The Rabbi

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2007, 04:58:07 PM »
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Bully for you.  But your opinion is irrelevant here.  What is the legal basis for jailing one private individual who fails to honor a financial obligation to another private individual?

Because its not simply a financial obligation. Its a requirement not to abuse or neglect your children. How is it any different than if I failed to provide food for my kid when he's sitting in front of me?

What crawled up your butt today? Good lord.

But the current situation of the children is not a factor in the decision to jail the delinquent person.
If my ex-wife has a $200k a year job and has shacked up with her boss who makes even more, I am still liable to be put in jail if I am delinquent in my support.
So it is not a matter of "child welfare" (and if the kids were really starving Child Services would come take them away anyway).
So we are back to the question of why this private obligation is privelaged over other private obligations.
As for what crawled up my butt, I dont see why you take this simple question as an attack on you personally.  Maybe you need to temper your remarks.
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Barbara

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2007, 05:23:29 PM »
I didn't take anything as a personal attack. I took the "Bully for you, your opinion is irrelevant" as a sign that once again you were more interested in being snotty and obnoxious than having an actual conversation.

I guess if you can't see why the obligation to feed a child is more important than paying off Mastercard, I'm probably not going to convince you anyway.

The Rabbi

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2007, 06:03:37 PM »
I didn't take anything as a personal attack. I took the "Bully for you, your opinion is irrelevant" as a sign that once again you were more interested in being snotty and obnoxious than having an actual conversation.

I guess if you can't see why the obligation to feed a child is more important than paying off Mastercard, I'm probably not going to convince you anyway.

Your feelings are irrelevant in a discussion on the lawfullness of this.  So are mine.
And we arent talking about the "obligation to feed a child."  Whether the money is being used to feed a child or buy crack is not considered by the court in deciding to jail.
If you can't separate your own feelings from the logic of the discussion maybe you shouldn't participate.
For the record I think people ought to honor commitments they make.  I also think the gov't has no business using the threat of violence to enforce private contracts.
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Paddy

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2007, 06:42:44 PM »
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I also think the gov't has no business using the threat of violence to enforce private contracts.
A contract is by definition a binding agreement.  If one of the parties reneges, who, praytell, should enforce it?


Ned Hamford

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2007, 10:04:20 PM »
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I also think the gov't has no business using the threat of violence to enforce private contracts.
A contract is by definition a binding agreement.  If one of the parties reneges, who, praytell, should enforce it?

The free market of course  grin
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

Barbara

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2007, 12:43:14 AM »
I don't really have any personal feelings about it. It's beyond an obligation to pay a bill and the goverment recognizes that.

In another situation, if a court orders you to do something (pay a fine of $100.00 per day, for instance) and you violate that order, you can be jailed. I've seen this in action.  grin

Chris

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2007, 08:10:43 AM »
What this all comes down to is the issue of contempt of court.  In theory at least, we live in a nation of laws, and rely upon the courts and judicial system to enforce those laws.  In order to enforce the laws, a court issues orders.  Personally, I issue dozens of orders every day, from the mundane (order a person to complete a court appointed attorney application or take a drug test) to the extreme (terminate parental rights, incarceration, or on a good day grant an adoption).  What happens when those orders are ignored?  The judge/magistrate should sit on his hands and do nothing?  No, the order must be enforced.  And, the way an order is enforced is a contempt action. 

There are two kinds of contempt.  Direct contempt, like where the defendant picks up a pad of paper and throws it at the judge, or tells the judge to *expletive deleted*ck himself, or something else done in the court which interferes with the court's ability to conduct business.  In direct contempt, the court can act summarily, meaning there is no right to trial or such, the judge issues an immediate order for punishment, be it fines or incarceration.

Indirect cintempt is what is being talked about with child support.  In other words, the court issues an order, and someone fails to comply with the order.  it is enforced differently.  The contemptor has rights to a hearing, to counsel, to appeal, etc.   More importantly, the contemptor has the right, even after being found in contempt of court, to purge the contempt by complying with the original order.  this is before punishment is imposed.  In other words, you get a second chance. 

Now, while we most often hear about the support cases, indrect contempt actions occur all of the time.  We see at least one a week around here.  They vary from case to case.  Often in divorce cases with children, we see contempt actions brought because the child was brought home from a visitation late, or picked up late, etc.  in civil cases, we see contempt actions brought because discovery is late, or one party misses a deposition, or doesn't deliver something on time, etc.  the reason you don't here more about these is that the contempt is genrally purged, and no one goes to jail.  or, the judge/magistrate sees the action is garbage and treats it as such.

In child support contempt, the court issues an order.  Here in Ohio, child support is determined based upon a standar set of figures the legislature adopted as standard guidelines.  Where one falls on the guidelines is based upon level of income of both parents.  the law allows for a judge/magistrate to order a deviation for good cause shown, such as in hardship situations, disability, etc.

So, the order is made after a hearing to determine what the amount should be.  Obligor (the person who is supposed to pay) doesn't pay.  A contempt action is brought by Child Support Enforcement Administration.  A hearing is held, and the judge or magistrate must determine of the obligor is in substantial compliance with the original order.  If yes, case dismissed.  If no, then the obligor is in conntempt.  A sentence is rendered, depending upon what number contempt the case is (1 - 30 days, 2- 60, 3- 90, 4 -120, 5- 150, 6-180, etc.).  the sentence is rendered, and then the person is ordered to purge himself of contempt by paying, and a review is set.  if in compliance, the contempt can be dismissed.  If in partial comliance, the case can be set for further review..  If the obligor is not in substantial compliance at the time of the review, all or a portion of the orgininal sentence may be imposed.

Now, rabbi, you asked what authority the Court has to jail someone for failing to pay an obligation to another party.  the authority falls from the failure to comply with the court's order, not the failure of payment necessarily.  But, as a matter of argument, I have seen a person jailed for failing to pay a civil judgment after an amount had been ordered.  how else can a court enforce its orders.  And, when a court stops enforcing its orders, well, I think we call that TSHTF around here.

The Rabbi

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2007, 08:26:05 AM »
Thanks, Chris.  That clears it up.
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Chris

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2007, 09:26:59 AM »
As always, you're welcome.

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2007, 12:34:41 PM »
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There are two kinds of contempt.  Direct contempt, like where the defendant picks up a pad of paper and throws it at the judge, or tells the judge to *expletive deleted*ck himself, or something else done in the court which interferes with the court's ability to conduct business.  In direct contempt, the court can act summarily, meaning there is no right to trial or such, the judge issues an immediate order for punishment, be it fines or incarceration.

I work on the defense side of medical malpractice cases.  At one of our trials several years back, after a defense verdict, the plaintiff became unglued and started screaming and cursing at the jury.  You don't see that very frequently in this type of litigation.   I don't know who was more shocked, the judge, jury or the plaintiff lawyer.  Before anyone could do anything, the plaintiff ran screaming out into the hall and left the courthouse.  We could see her on the courthouse lawn screaming and sobbing.  We turned to the plaintiff lawyer and said, "this looks a client control problem, and we will let you handle it'.   cheesy
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SomeKid

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2007, 03:38:00 PM »
As bad as we have it here, at least we aren't in Britain...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/28/ndivorce128.xml

   

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Court ordered payout 30 years after divorce

Last Updated: 6:00pm BST 28/06/2007

 Have your say      Read comments

A wealthy retired builder was ordered to pay more money to the woman he divorced nearly 30 years ago after a judge heard she had "fallen on hard times", the Court of Appeal was told yesterday.

Dennis North, 70, was divorced from his first wife Jean, 61, in 1978 - a year after finding out she was having an affair with the man she later went to live with.

In 1981 he made a financial settlement with the woman he married in 1964, buying her a house and investments.
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Over the years, he increased her assets so that she would have been able to live comfortably for the rest of her life, the judges were told.

But in 1999, she sold up and moved to Australia where she saw her capital dwindle because of bad investments and what the court was told was a lifestyle beyond her means.

A district judge awarded her a lump sum of £202,000 in April last year despite agreeing that Mrs North's money troubles had nothing to do with her former husband and he had no further responsibility towards her.

Since his divorce from his first wife, Mr North had prospered and his wealth is now estimated at between £5 million and £11 million, the court was told.

Mr North, who was left to bring up the three children of the marriage and has two children by his second wife, wants the Court of Appeal to quash the award.

Philip Moor QC, representing him, told the panel of judges headed by Lord Justice Thorpe that Mrs North had made no attempt to find a job since 1977, when she was 32.

When she sold all her assets and emigrated, she chose to live in an expensive part of Sydney, he said.

If she had stayed in the North of England she would have been comfortably off for the rest of her life.

"The whole purpose of divorce is to disentangle people so they can lead independent lives," he told the three judges.

Mr Moor told Lord Justice Thorpe, sitting with Lord Justice May and Mr Justice Bennett, that it was not his client's fault that his first wife "has fallen on hard times and she cannot now go back for a second bite of the cherry".

But Mrs North's counsel, Deborah Bangay QC, said it was not her client's fault that her investments had gone wrong and the District Judge took account of her ex-husband's wealth and the fact that she needed additional support when he gave her an award at the "bottom end of the spectrum".

She added: "This was not a second bite at the cherry, but it is what are her reasonable needs. The court was entitled to take into account the obvious wealth of her former husband. It was an extraordinarily modest award set against his wealth."

The court reserved its judgment to a date to be fixed.

Barbara

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Re: The Return of Debtors' Prisons
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2007, 04:31:58 PM »
What a crock.  angry