Toyota takes subscriptions mainstream with monthly charge for key fob

[MechAg94]

Toyota Plans to Charge You to Use Your Key Fob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc

Toyota takes subscriptions mainstream with monthly charge for key fob
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/toyota-takes-subscriptions-mainstream-with-monthly-charge-for-key-fob

And some of them won’t just be connected apps on your phone. According to a report from Jalopnik, Toyota in the U.S. confirmed that if you don’t pay for your Remote Connect subscription once the trial expires, you won’t be able to use the button on your key fob to remotely start your vehicle.

Looks like they are tying it in with a bunch of other features accessible with a phone app.  I am not sure how the phone app stuff hits me, but if it is just the key fob doing the action, that sounds like BS.  I don't have remote start on my Tacoma.  I can't imagine wanting to pay a monthly fee for it.

Plus, I really hate to subsidize something like that.  I can see greedy companies trying to include all sorts of things.  I can also see hacks popping up for this immediately. 

Added:  I guess I am already paying a subscription fee to my local govt for registration. 

[Hawkmoon]

I'm glad I wasn't planning to buy a Toyota. If I had been, I wouldn't be now.

[K Frame]

BMW wanted to charge a subscription for the *expletive deleted*ing seat heaters to actually heat the seats?

Why not a subscription for the exhaust pipe to vent engine exhaust outside of the cabin? Don't pay and you get to gas yourself.

Ludicrous.

[Boomhauer]

These car companies have lost their damn minds lately. Subscriptions to keep using features you paid for, going all electric, dropping hugely popular models (dodge is killing off the charger and challenger!)…it’s like they hate money

[HankB]

That's the sort of "feature" that would make me NOT buy that car at all. (Daytime running lights you can't turn off are another one of those items.)

There are certainly some retards working in the automotive industry.

I remember once using a company car - a Ford - that made removing the ignition key a two-handed job; to pull out the steering column mounted key on the right side, you had to reach around to the left side of the steering column with your other hand at the same time and depress a button. Idiocy.

[Ben]

That's ridiculous. I'm certain that navigation will be next. Just for those that are (rightly) dissing Toyota here, the links talk about all the other manufacturers looking at (or already doing) similar. Lehto gave an example of one of the European manufacturers actually holding back mechanical services, in this case rear wheel steering, to subscription only (currently just in the EU).

The video also said that Toyota is looking at making this retroactive to 2018. That doesn't even seem legal.

Also, $20/mo?!? That's theft.

[dogmush]

Devil's advocate:

They are charging subscription fees for access to their web servers, and web enabled features.  Are they expected to just keep servers online, software patched and secure, and AI's and maps updated for free?  Forever?  What company does that?

/Devil's Advocate


On the key fob, it says that the only button that won't work is remote start.  It seems like Toyota ran remote start through the internet connection.  That does seem shitty, but I bet it's  a security thing.  Making it work without the keyless fob in the car.  I will say, when I had my BMW, I paid for the real time traffic, and web services, and it was kinda handy, but nothing I couldn't live without.  Alexa auto and my phone do as good or better job of web integration in my F150.

[bedlamite]

You will own nothing, and you will be happy.

[Ben]

Devil's advocate:

They are charging subscription fees for access to their web servers, and web enabled features.  Are they expected to just keep servers online, software patched and secure, and AI's and maps updated for free?  Forever?  What company does that?

/Devil's Advocate

Well, they're kind of forcing subscriptions, aren't they? On my 2014 4Runner, I have the premium audio package, which was the only way to get the navigation. 2014 is pre-connected services, other than Toyota Entune, which is basically just an interface between your console and some phone apps you may be using.

My navigation is all on an SD card, and I have the choice of keeping the 2014 map base, or buying updated SD cards if I so choose. With a connected subscription service, I have no choice but to either pay to use maps or completely lose my navigation feature. I didn't buy a new SD card for the 4Runner until last year, and had been getting along fine with onboard navigation.

Garmin lets you buy units with lifetime map updates. Auto manufacturers shouldn't have any problem doing the same thing. Otherwise, people will just stick Garmins or whatever in their car, or use the free spyware that is Google Nav.

You can also legitimately argue connected services like navigation. Though I would argue people should have the option to use a base map even if they don't subscribe to updated services, especially since you might be in areas without internet / cell signal when using navigation. However when they start charging for mechanical features, there is something wrong there. I'm now renting a car instead of owning it, and $40K is kind of a high fee for rent.

[Ben]

Oh, if I heard Lehto right, it looks like I am going to lose the traffic feature on my 2014 Toyota navigation when 3G shuts down. He said other manufacturers are retrofitting their systems to LTE for free.

I'm also now wondering if I will lose some navigation accuracy. I'm not even sure if it's GPS antenna only or if it uses 3G to enhance accuracy.

[dogmush]

Oh, if I heard Lehto right, it looks like I am going to lose the traffic feature on my 2014 Toyota navigation when 3G shuts down. He said other manufacturers are retrofitting their systems to LTE for free.

I'm also now wondering if I will lose some navigation accuracy. I'm not even sure if it's GPS antenna only or if it uses 3G to enhance accuracy.

I traded in my 335 but that was happening on it as well.  I got an email last Jan from BMW that the 14 3 series used 3G and it was going to shut off mid 2022.  They did give me (or the new owner) free connected services till the 3G sunset, so that was kinda nice.


My 14 f150's maps are also SD card based.  I'm unsure how much of Toyota's maps are cloud based, and how much are onboard stored. I have read somewhere that between Apple Car Play and Android Auto, and waze/Google maps people aren't spending $700-$1000 for navigation as often,  so automakers are forcing it into other packages people want to be dicks.

FWIW, Mrs. Mush's '18 Alfa Romeo Stelvio is pretty high trim, and doesn't have navy. We got it used so I don't know if it was ordered that way, or that's how Alfa ships them.

Speaking of free spyware, I got Alexa Auto for $15 about two weeks ago, and if you are at all into Amazon's system and Alexa, that actually works pretty well.  I'm going to run it on my trip up to WV next week, we'll see how useful it ends up being.

[Ben]

I'm unsure how much of Toyota's maps are cloud based, and how much are onboard stored.

As of 2014, I'm almost certain they are 100% onboard (sans traffic). I have had my 4Runner in some pretty remote areas with zero cell signal, and one of the things that has actually impressed me about whoever does Toyota nav, is that the off-roading map (forest service roads, etc.) are REALLY complete, which should mean that they are off the SD card.

As a tangent, when I ordered the updated SD card last year (only through the dealer, $140) I did not see any updates for new roads, at least here in Idaho. One of the reasons I even got the thing is that because ID has been growing like crazy, there are tons of new streets not on the 2014 card. Apparently not on the 2020 card either, so it was kind of a waste.

One of the problems is going to be that I bet they are going to work this stuff into trim levels, and then start charging like cable companies do. "Want the HBO? Then you have to buy this tier that has the 10,000 sports channels that you'll never watch." "Want the heated seats? Then you have to buy this subscription (and trim) level that has twenty other features you don't want."

[MechAg94]

My Dad's Ford has maps that need to be updated periodically.  They want $200 or more for a map update.  He has never done it.  It was the same on the Ford I had previously. 

I have a 2018 Tacoma.  It does not have remote start.  I can get along fine without it and without the other features they mentioned. 

I understand that most of features they are talking about are internet based.  I can understand a charge for those.  I just don't like a charge to use something that comes installed.  Hopefully, that doesn't become a trend.

[Ben]

I was just thinking, given Dogmush's mention of Alexa Auto, how hard would it be for Amazon to come up with a "car Kindle"? A 4G Kindle sized screen that has all the car apps you might want. Design a mount to cover the console area where the vehicle manufacturer puts their stuff, and you have a nice, big screen infotainment system, for probably a heck of a lot less than you would be charged for the onboard system, even without subscriptions.

I'm pretty sure my nav (bundled with the premium audio) was close to a grand. Amazon could sell a $300 4G Kindle with GPS and bundle car features with Prime. Or else someone can come out with an Android tablet that does the same thing with freeware.

Edit: this is again only addressing connected features. I'm still trying to wrap my head around a subscription for physical parts of the vehicle.

[K Frame]

"They are charging subscription fees for access to their web servers, and web enabled features.  "

How in the holy hell is a BMW heated seat a SERVER ENABLED FEATURE?

Would you feel the same way if they did that with either cabin heat or air conditioning?

How much server space does flipping the switch on your dash to turn on the seat heaters take? 50 petabytes?

It's nothing more than a money grab. Nothing else.

[dogmush]

"They are charging subscription fees for access to their web servers, and web enabled features.  "

How in the holy hell is a BMW heated seat a SERVER ENABLED FEATURE?

Would you feel the same way if they did that with either cabin heat or air conditioning?

How much server space does flipping the switch on your dash to turn on the seat heaters take? 50 petabytes?

It's nothing more than a money grab. Nothing else.

Read the article, BMW does not now, and never has, charged a subscription for heated seats.  Rein in your inner Twitchy author there ace.


As I said, I do not know for sure, but I suspect that the remote start is integrated into the cell antenna/connected services software.  I suspect this is to allow the engine to start without the RFID Key Fob in the car and still maintain some kind of anti theft.  Is it how I would have engineered it? NO, but I don't know how Toyota integrated the software based anti-theft features pretty much all cars have now, but bouncing it through their server and the car's cell antenna would allow good encryption, really good range, and easy app integration.  I strongly suspect that is why.  Of note, the article only mentions remote start, which tells me the lock/unlock, trunk, and panic features on the FOB will still function.

I'm not a fan of this, and it would definitely effect my purchase decisions, but charging money to access cell tower airtime, bandwidth and servers space/software isn't all that surprising, nor intrinsically evil.

[K Frame]

I read the article.

I realized that BMW never acted on that proposal.

But really, how far are we away from something like that if it was discussed at a corporate level?

And again I ask...

How much server space is required to process flipping a switch on your dashboard to activate a device that's already installed on the car?



"but I suspect that the remote start is integrated into the cell antenna/connected services software."

So, if that's the case, you'd then be OK with the manufacturer charging a fee every time you press the fob to simply lock or unlock your doors?

[dogmush]

"but I suspect that the remote start is integrated into the cell antenna/connected services software."

So, if that's the case, you'd then be OK with the manufacturer charging a fee every time you press the fob to simply lock or unlock your doors?

Gee, I dunno, I wonder if I addressed that. Oh wait:

I'm not a fan of this, and it would definitely effect my purchase decisions, but charging money to access cell tower airtime, bandwidth and servers space/software isn't all that surprising, nor intrinsically evil.

Why do you think you deserve free cell data bandwidth in perpetuity?

But hey, you're  a tech writer, technology  adjacent  as it were. How much does it take to field and update an app, secure it against unauthorized access, contract with AT&T or Verizon for tower access, rewrite chassis software, and get a car to turn on a CAN bus, computer, and seat heater when the car isn't running, nor even unlocked.  Then how much does it cost to keep all that up to date on changing cell OS's, changing car software, and any zero day exploits that were missed? 

You do realize  that none of those switches on the dashboard actually control the circuits, right?  It's all software.

[K Frame]

"Why do you think you deserve free cell data bandwidth in perpetuity?"

No where has it been shown that this is actually hitting cell data, cell towers, etc., and is in fact anything other than manufacturers looking for another new, and this time endless, stream of income.

Cars have had fob unlockable doors for what, 40 years now? Must have been magical technology to have been hitting the cellular networks that long ago, you know, before they were ever even established. Must have really sucked to have purchased a keyless entry in Wyoming, where until a few years ago about 4% of the state was actually covered by robust cell networks.

It's pretty clear that manufacturers, at least some of them, are looking at ways to monetize things that have NOT ONE *expletive deleted*ing THING to do cellular, satellite or any other advanced communications technology.

Hey dogmush, thanks for buying our car! Did you know that every time you turn on the turn signal it's a 4.2 cent fee? Hope you're OK with that!

Why yes I am, auto manufacturer! Everyone knows that every time the turn signal blinks it makes a HUGE impact on cellular data transmissions!


Jesus, dude, are you REALLY having a hard time comprehending that my concerns/complaints don't have anything at all to do with things that tap onto advanced communications networks?

[MechAg94]

I have 2018 Tacoma.  Mine might be included in the group that would allow me to add remote start for my truck.  (It did not come with it)  Might be neat to have, but I don't want it bad enough to pay extra. 

IMO, it is just something to look out for with new vehicles.  Also maybe look out for 3rd party hacks and how they might affect other parts of the vehicle. 

[HankB]

A lot of new products have too many gizmos which, all too often, turn out to introduce new failure modes. And now they're trying to use these to generate a revenue stream over and above the original purchase price.

A lot of this is just more stuff to go wrong.

I just read a report asserting that some of the new Lincolns are among the least reliable vehicles thanks to all the "high tech" stuff they're including.

And its not just vehicles - have you taken a look at home appliances lately? I, for one, don't need a touch sensitive WiFi enabled panel on my refrigerator which will let me remotely start my washer and dryer. Nor do I need a K-cup coffee maker built into the door alongside the cold water and ice dispensers.

[MechAg94]

A lot of new products have too many gizmos which, all too often, turn out to introduce new failure modes. And now they're trying to use these to generate a revenue stream over and above the original purchase price.

A lot of this is just more stuff to go wrong.

I just read a report asserting that some of the new Lincolns are among the least reliable vehicles thanks to all the "high tech" stuff they're including.

And its not just vehicles - have you taken a look at home appliances lately? I, for one, don't need a touch sensitive WiFi enabled panel on my refrigerator which will let me remotely start my washer and dryer. Nor do I need a K-cup coffee maker built into the door alongside the cold water and ice dispensers.

You mean you don't want to see what is in your refrigerator while you are at the store?   

[dogmush]

"Why do you think you deserve free cell data bandwidth in perpetuity?"

No where has it been shown that this is actually hitting cell data, cell towers, etc., and is in fact anything other than manufacturers looking for another new, and this time endless, stream of income.

Reading is fundamental.

From the linked article in the OP:

And some of them won’t just be connected apps on your phone. According to a report from Jalopnik, Toyota in the U.S. confirmed that if you don’t pay for your Remote Connect subscription once the trial expires, you won’t be able to use the button on your key fob to remotely start your vehicle.

Remote Connect also lets you start the engine from your phone, as well as lock or unlock the doors, find your vehicle in a parking lot, or get notifications if you’ve lent the vehicle to someone and they’re speeding in it. That’s included free for three years when you buy the vehicle, but after that, it’s $9.95 a month plus taxes, billed to your credit card.

That sure sounds like the car's cell data, but let's double check:
https://www.toyota.com/content/dam/toyota/brochures/pdf/connectedservices/Remote_Connect_CFA.pdf

KEY FOB WITH REMOTE FUNCTIONALITY
Vehicles equipped with Remote Connect² have key fob compatibility for Remote Start
.
Connected Services registration will be required to use the complete suite of Remote Connect services, which include
Smartphone, Smartwatch, and smart home devices.
Audio Plus vehicle key fob functionality is available for up to 3 years. Beyond
3 years requires a subscription. Applicable for select Model Year 2018 through 2020
Remote Connect capable vehicles. Select Model Year 2020 Remote Connect capable
vehicles will have functionality for up to 10 years.
Premium Audio vehicle key fob functionality is available for up to 10 years.
Beyond 10 years requires a subscription. Applicable for select Model Year 2018
through 2020 Remote Connect capable vehicles.
Using the key fob to remote start my Toyota:
1. Press the LOCK button on the remote.
2. Press the LOCK button a second time within 1 second.
3. Press the LOCK button again, this time holding it for 3 seconds. The engine will start.
Note: Key Fob Remote Start will not function if Connected Services are waived.

And just in case there were still questions:

Remote Connect is dependent upon an operative telematics device, a cellular connection, navigation map data and GPS satellite signal reception

So yes, the remote start functionality (which it turns out isn't a button on the FOB anyway) goes through the car's data connection, and you need to have a data plan to use it and the other cell data dependent features.  Exactly the same thing that GM has done with OnStar for 25 fraking years.

So other than you not bothering to understand how the system works, what exactly is the problem?  Don't want to pay for data, don't.  Remote start and the other data things won't work.  The FOB will work fine for the [checks picture] four functions that actually have buttons.  Want all the bells and whistles?  You have to pay for the cell data and computer time that requires.

This is like crying and writing clickbait articles because you bought a brand new TV, but Netflix still wants you to pay $14.99/month.

[MechAg94]

Toyota Back-Pedals on Key Fob Subscriptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfDoc6wegss

You are right it appears.  Many of these options are run through a cell communications module according to Lehto.  Some local functions such as remote start are also run through that module and may be affected by it being restricted behind a paywall.

[RoadKingLarry]

Seems like most of the functions they just have to route through cell service could be done over Bluetooth.
Our '21 Explorer has the remote start feature via cell phone (also lock and unlock from phone). In the 6 months we've had it I've used it a few times, the wife unit hasn't used it at all. I do have fun with the Ford Connect app though. It has a tracking feature. I can pull up the location of the vehicle. It annoys my wife when I track her down while she is out running errands then call her and ask her to pick something up for me while she is at someplace with something I need or want.