Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 07:49:30 AM
I'm looking for input. I want the new Walther PPS. I have dreams of the new Walther PPS. I've held one, and it fits nicely in my hand....
That said, it's around $600.00. A buddy of mine suggested looking at Kahr's- they seems to be closer to 7 or 800....I'm going to shoot one or two tonight...
Then, I noticed that Kel-tec has two 9mm, one a single stack....anyone shoot one of these?
Purpose of said gun? Pocket carry AND IDPA.
Right now I have a 642 that is with me when I have pants on. I run B.U.G. matches at my club, so I get trigger time with the 642.
I'm a pretty good shot with it, too.
That said, reloading it takes a bit. And, well, I'd like to compete with my carry gun. I've tried to IWB the P99, it is bulky and cumbersome.
I don't really like it hanging on my waist, and I'm looking for another pocket gun...
Input?
Post by: Manedwolf on December 20, 2007, 07:51:05 AM
Safest design ever. Squeeze the grip, it's cocked. Let go, it's uncocked.
Nice.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 07:54:43 AM
My goal is to be closer to the $500 range.
Post by: mtnbkr on December 20, 2007, 08:06:31 AM
Chris
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 08:11:53 AM
My P99 is polymer, but it feels solid.
I have a KEl-tec sub2, and it shoots AWESOME, but it feels cheap....I know what you mean....
Post by: AJ Dual on December 20, 2007, 08:14:39 AM
CDNN also has the Kel-Tec PF9 for $229. It's kind of a crap-shoot quality wise, and I'll second that it may not be a gun that will stand up to frequent range and competition use, but Kel-Tec with their legendary customer service will keep trying to make it right if you have problems. And it's the smallest locked-breech 9mm auto out there IIRC, save for the Rourbaugh, so for many the minor gamble is worth it. And it's not as if the Kahr hasn't had it's share of problems and QC issues too.
It's hard to say, and there's not enough time on the market to make a truly informed opinion, but of the three, my gut tells me that if its going to see significant range and competition use, the PPS is the one you'll be happiest with in the long run. The Kel-Tec and the Kahr, at least anecdotally, have that "I'm for carry, and a little range familiarization only" vibe about them to me. Frankly all the super compact 9mm's have some issues, IMO, you're just skirting the bleeding edge of the materials performance envelope for 9mm and locked-breech designs, especially with flexible polymer frames thrown into the mix. And the PPS is really not a super-compact, but just a compact with a super-compact width profile. They made the slide quite tall to get the extra mass and locking inertia that slightly larger compacts like the G26, Xd, and M&P Compact enjoy.
On that note, I don't want to expand the selection, and I like sticking within the poster's original question, but you may want to expand your search to the Glock 26, and the S&W M&P Compacts, they're not that much bigger or thicker, and may be shorter, or not as tall as the PPS anyway, and one of them might work better for you.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 08:18:50 AM
I'll look at the M&P compacts, but, if my feeble memory serves me correctly, they are similar in size to the P99 Compact, and are double stack....I'll look though.
Thanks for the idea!
Post by: AJ Dual on December 20, 2007, 08:28:48 AM
Besides the '68 GCA import point issues which would force them to invest in tooling and some manufacturing in the U.S., (The G26 is barely importable as-is with knock off plastic adjustable sights removed at the Smyrna GA facility, and the funny "target rest" thumb divots in the grip frame...) I think the reliability envelope for super sub-compacts is why Glock hasn't yet pursued a single-stack compact 9mm, and may never do so. And how the PPS went for thinness, but is actually much taller and longer than many other single stack super compact 9mm's.
One other thing that may argue in favor of using the PPS in matches and games is the various factory magazines that extend the grip. They take it from sub-compact, to full-size in the grip area at least. A potentially useful feature when transitioning from carry to the range.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 20, 2007, 08:41:07 AM
Much better quality than the PF9, and much thinner than the Blocks.
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 20, 2007, 08:49:11 AM
I have owned a Kahr K9 for about 8 years now, and I still find the design and simplicity top-notch.
The only gripe I have is that the finish on the slide has worn through from carry, but it started life as a Florida Department of Law Enforcement gun before I got it, so I only continued the process.
Post by: wooderson on December 20, 2007, 08:55:26 AM
With the Walther you basically get S&W's excellent service on purchase - de facto lifetime warranty (Walther USA states 1 year but I've read of people with older P99s being serviced), they pick up the shipping, etc..
Post by: atomd on December 20, 2007, 09:05:08 AM
The pps is nice and slim which is great and it won't cost that much more than a glock 26. The only downside is that they are working out some bugs with it still since it's so new. More than a few people have had issues with the slide stop sticking mid magazine causing the slide to get locked back (you need tools to fix it so it's not field fixable). Kahr stuff is hit or miss from what I see. They are pricey and people complain about their warranty service a lot too. Keltec seems to be hit or miss too but everyone raves about how great their warranty service is. I'd go for the 26 or the keltec pf9. The 26 is a proven design and it works even though you look like you're trying to smuggle a brick in your pants pocket. The keltec is thinner .88" versus the 1.18" of the 26 and it's about 1/2 the price with a lifetime warranty and made in the US. I'm thinking about going with the 26 but there's so many other pistols on my to buy list at the moment so who knows.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 09:07:42 AM
Gew- I honestly don't care that much about the finish. It's a pocket gun.
Wooderson- The other advantage is that after having a P99 and a P22, all of the funky Walther controls are going to be second nature to me.
Post by: HankB on December 20, 2007, 09:08:12 AM
Walther devotees seem to love their pistols with an almost religious fervor . . . but when I was shooting IDPA frequently, I noticed that P99s made an appearance, and then slowly faded away. Reliability issues - and you don't get a "do over" if your pistol jams. Also, Walther has a reputation for poor service . . . and no service at all once a given model is replaced with something newer.
Kel-Tecs seem to be about 50/50 - half work well, half don't. Though it doesn't bear directly on your quest for a 9mm, I've fired a buddy's P32 a bit; the pistol was reliable, but the "sights" were unusable - I was getting 18" groups at 25 yards, centered about two feet low and a foot and a half to the left.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 20, 2007, 09:08:26 AM
Manned- I want 9mm.
Gew- I honestly don't care that much about the finish. It's a pocket gun.
Wooderson- The other advantage is that after having a P99 and a P22, all of the funky Walther controls are going to be second nature to me.
Gew- I honestly don't care that much about the finish. It's a pocket gun.
Wooderson- The other advantage is that after having a P99 and a P22, all of the funky Walther controls are going to be second nature to me.
I know. The Taurus MilPro PT111 is the same as my 745, but in 9mm. It's a bit smaller and more slender, even.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 09:24:38 AM
Walther devotees seem to love their pistols with an almost religious fervor . . . but when I was shooting IDPA frequently, I noticed that P99s made an appearance, and then slowly faded away. Reliability issues - and you don't get a "do over" if your pistol jams. Also, Walther has a reputation for poor service . . . and no service at all once a given model is replaced with something newer.
My friends say the same thing. They hate them, I'm totally into Walthers. I've done IDPA monthly, if not more, for the last three years, and I've seen one other P99.
As far as jams, mine has a a TON (well into the thousands) of ammo through it, nary a glitch. FWIW, I am AWEFUL about cleaning it. AWEFUL. Why? I like it when people with $2,000 competition guns jam. They inevitably complain that it is dirty, and promptly clean it. Mine gets cleaned once a year- every winter.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 09:25:18 AM
Post by: Joe Demko on December 20, 2007, 09:33:36 AM
Post by: MillCreek on December 20, 2007, 09:44:07 AM
Although it is heavy, but stone cold reliable and easy to pocket carry, I still trust and carry my AMT 9 mm DA Backup, that I bought new back in the 1980's. AMT could also have some QA issues, but mine has gone bang every time I have asked it to. High Standard bought the tooling a couple of years ago, and the Backup is now on the market again.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 20, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
(I appreaciate you changing the mag catch for no reason- I did the same thing on my Mossberg- I changed the plastic safety to a metal one, it just made me feel better about it)
Post by: wooderson on December 20, 2007, 09:53:58 AM
There are some interesting Taurii I'd like to look at, but most of them (like the 24/7 OSS) seem to only come in a decocker DA/SA configuration.
Post by: MillCreek on December 20, 2007, 11:10:14 AM
Post by: HankB on December 20, 2007, 11:53:07 AM
. . . I'm totally into Walthers. I've done IDPA monthly, if not more, for the last three years, and I've seen one other P99.
As far as jams, mine has a a TON (well into the thousands) of ammo through it, nary a glitch. FWIW, I am AWEFUL about cleaning it. AWEFUL. Why? I like it when people with $2,000 competition guns jam. They inevitably complain that it is dirty, and promptly clean it. Mine gets cleaned once a year- every winter.
I believe you . . . I've heard enough stories from Walther devotees to believe reliable Walthers really exist. But I've seen jammamatics, too. As for cleaning . . . a fellow IDPA-er has a P99, and after a couple of hundred rounds, he starts getting failures . . . AND his trigger pull starts getting incredibly heavy. (Shooting mostly WWB). He's a vet of the IDF, so I DO believe he knows how to maintain his guns . . . .As far as jams, mine has a a TON (well into the thousands) of ammo through it, nary a glitch. FWIW, I am AWEFUL about cleaning it. AWEFUL. Why? I like it when people with $2,000 competition guns jam. They inevitably complain that it is dirty, and promptly clean it. Mine gets cleaned once a year- every winter.
Last I saw him, he was happily using a BHP.
Personally, if a pistol won't go at least 500 rounds without cleaning or lubing . . . I don't want it.
(Hmmmm . . . maybe Walther has a Monday morning/Friday afternoon issue with the guns they make?)
Post by: Ryan in Maine on December 20, 2007, 01:00:13 PM
I would not use a Kel-Tec for competition. Don't have any experience with the Walther PPS. I think I have a magazine sitting around somewhere that reviewed it. I'll check what they got for accuracy.
Keep an eye on what Glock does with their Short Frame series too. A Glock 36 fits in most of my pants pockets. Imagine if they added the Short Frame design to that? Or are we only talking 9mm?
Post by: member1313 on December 20, 2007, 05:15:47 PM
No, that's what I'm looking for.
My P99 is polymer, but it feels solid.
I have a KEl-tec sub2, and it shoots AWESOME, but it feels cheap....I know what you mean....
You have a P99? /droolMy P99 is polymer, but it feels solid.
I have a KEl-tec sub2, and it shoots AWESOME, but it feels cheap....I know what you mean....
I want one when I can carry. How do you like it? (And did you get the Walther or the S&W version?)
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on December 20, 2007, 05:28:32 PM
I have a Kel Tec .380 which has never, ever had any problems. Boringly reliable. It's a pain to clean it, so I don't. The gun doesn't seem to mind. Half a dozen folks I know own other Kel Tec midget handguns. Never a problem with any of them, either. The internet rumors of Kel Tec reliability problems are grossly overstated.
They're all good guns. Buy the one that fits your hand best.
Post by: Modifiedbrowning on December 20, 2007, 06:14:54 PM
Quote
Also, Walther has a reputation for poor service
Not since S&W has been importing them. S&W has one of the best warranty departments in the industry.
I have three P99s and have never had any problems with any of them, along with three other Walthers.
Ex-MA Hole, buy the Walther, you know you want to. I will be buying a PPS at some point in the future after I pay off the two pistols I have on layaway right now (one of them is a Walther P-1). I noticed you have posted over at the Walther Forums, my handle over there is Montana Slim.
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 20, 2007, 08:20:20 PM
Quote
The only brand I'd consider for pocket carry and competition would be Kahr.
You're not just whistling Dixie there.
I've come really close to buying a Kahr T9 after packing the above K9 for a while.
Post by: Snowdog on December 20, 2007, 09:08:47 PM
True enough, in the beginning I had to send my K9 back to Kahr for "repairs" as I had the K9 fail to return to battery due to some American Ammunition FMJs failing to fully seat and I mistakenly attributed that to an over-tight/out-of-spec chamber. In my defense, this was back in the mid to late 90's and well before the non-resized crap quality of American Ammo became common knowledge. Kahr went over the K9, polished up the interior and simply included a note with the K9 asking me not to fire garbage through their product. Touché Kahr, touché.
I only replaced the recoil spring with a new one (Wolff) after the 3,000 round mark a few years back as a precaution... I suspect it likely would still be working just as well today if still on it's original spring.
This K9 is absolutely controllable even with Winchester's stout 127gr +P+ Rangers, though this didn't come as a surprise as I had already knew the K9 was orginally built around Cor-bon's hot 115gr +P JHP.
What did come as a surprise was the seemingly match grade accuracy. I can print tighter groups with this pistol than with my G19, despite the 1/2" barrel difference and shorter site radius.
Though heavy for its size, the K9 is built exceedingly well. I can't say as much for Kahr's Polymer series handguns as I've never dealt with one. However, I simply cannot say enough to exalt the K9!
Hell, the electroless nickel finish still doesn't show any significant wear from the hundreds of draws from the nylon DeSantis promotional belt holster my K9 came with (which I still find an ideal mate to this pistol for daily carry). My only issue is that my wife has essentially adopted the K9, leaving me to carry the much larger Kimber classic custom 1911 (the only other pistol I'm equally proficient with). But hey, that's ok... I'm a 1911 guy anyway.
Post by: Ryan in Maine on December 20, 2007, 11:18:38 PM
Quote
The only brand I'd consider for pocket carry and competition would be Kahr.
You're not just whistling Dixie there.
I've come really close to buying a Kahr T9 after packing the above K9 for a while.
It's just not "small gun accurate" to me. It matched or out-performed nearly all of the full-size guns in the gravel pit. The guy who owned it could shoot 1.5" groups from a good distance away. I would estimate the distance to be 25 yards. In my opinion that's not a pocket gun. It's a gun that happens to be able to fit in your pocket.
Back to what I came for though... Ex-MA Hole's curiosity of the Walther PPS. The review I referred to earlier is in the February 2008 issue of Combat Handguns. The review is by Rich Grassi. They got 2.25" from 25 yards with CorBon DPX 115's, 4" from 25 yards with Federal HSHP 124's, and 2.75" from 25 yards with Hornady XTP JHP 115's. I would imagine you could greatly improve those numbers with practice to at least 2" groups.
He had Chuck Haggard out with him, and they were very impressed with the Walther PPS. As far as I know, they are still anxiously awaiting holsters for it.
Post by: Sawdust on December 21, 2007, 05:26:23 AM
It has been a great pistol for me and has run flawlessly after breaking it in. I load it with Federal EFMJ.
HTH,
Sawdust