Post by: telewinz on July 16, 2005, 02:57:06 PM
Post by: mtnbkr on July 16, 2005, 04:31:19 PM
As for leather belts, the last one I bought was handmade by Rafter S.
Chris
Post by: Standing Wolf on July 16, 2005, 05:32:09 PM
Take my new keyboard, for example. There's only one maker of split keyboards for Macintoshes left in business: Adesso. I had to replace the old one, since several of the keys had come off four and five times, and couldn't still be glued back in place. This one has a right shift key shortened to make room for the \ and | characters, which are normally pushed out of the way. The left shift key works only when I remember to move my least finger far to the left. Sloppy design. Sloppy workmanshipbut that's China for you.
If I'd been able to find anything else, believe me: I wouldn't even have considered this sorry excuse for a keyboard.
Post by: Monkeyleg on July 16, 2005, 07:06:58 PM
They're going to be coming at us economically, and maybe militarily. You can take that to the bank
Right now they hold enough of our T-bonds that they could seriously impact our economy by doing a massive sell-off.
And their generals are itching to fight us.
They're using their artificially-propped-up currency to buy oil from the Mideast, a region that they've spent zero dollars defending.
In the next year or so, they're going to be selling their cars here in the US. Cars whose designs were stolen from GM. None of our government's calls for patent protection and intellectual property rights have had any effect.
In the 1930's, the FDR administration recognized the threat from Japan, and took measures to cut that country off from rubber and oil imports. It lead to a war with Japan, but a war with a weaker Japan than we would otherwise have faced if not for the embargoes.
Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with China on a level that we've never had to face before. We may not survive.
But, ain't WalMart wonderful?
Post by: telewinz on July 17, 2005, 02:55:48 AM
YANKEE: The term could have been applied to Dutch pirates in the Caribbean (hence the 1680s references) and later shifted to New Englanders. Mencken favors this explanation, saying that the term was probably applied by Dutch New Yorkers to New Englanders "whose commercial enterprise outran their moral scruples."
Post by: The Rabbi on July 17, 2005, 05:29:12 AM
China will continue to grow and prosper as long as their cost of labor is significantly less than anyplace else in the world. But rising prosperity means rising prices and rising wages and they will lose their competitive edge, just as the Japanese did.
If someone saves $1.50 on a barbecue grill he doesnt notice it much. If he were to add up all the $1.50 savings on all the items purchased in the year he would notice it a lot. The guy in Ohio whose job was building barbecue grills notices it a lot when his job goes to China. A small number of people will suffer a big impact and a large number of people will benefit to a small degree. Its economics. Get over it.
Post by: telewinz on July 17, 2005, 05:44:26 AM
Last year I noticed even ten cents in our expenditures, I was able to reduce expenses by over $70,000 yet increase sales by $75,000. No cutting electricity,heating, overtime, supplies, personnel or ANY inconvenence at all. It just took a dedicated staff and a serious look at our buying procedures, a dime or nickel at a time.
Post by: K Frame on July 17, 2005, 06:05:48 AM
Post by: thorn on July 17, 2005, 11:44:11 AM
it keeps the price down on a ton of things, but the quality on many is so much lower-
A BIG DRAWBACK= all the extra $$$$ the top execs in US pocket, the wages not paid to US workers.
it has to have an impact. to some degree Americans just get different jobs now, but how many people are working in Wal mart for so nothing, instead of in a factory for decent wages. maybe we'd rather be in the store.
it's a tough one. i think in the long run all that $$$ leaving the country is not a good thing, and may be affecting how much people are willing to pay me here.
for my toy collection,. China does keep the price down , but QC is terrible over there, and things like=
my gijoe comic pack #9 got delayed for 8 months because the Gov't shut down a factory and was refusing to release the molds. ridiculous.
for most other stuff, China just means it will break sooner so i gotta spend extra on the American version anyway.
it is a trade off i think
Post by: Silver Bullet on July 17, 2005, 12:13:29 PM
The other thing that is happening is that the American manufacturers are training the imports to not only make, but sell and market . There are cases where the Asians learned how to manufacture from us, and then turned around and used that knowledge to make and sell their own, cheaper product.
Slave labor is cheap; it's tough to compete against.
Post by: atek3 on July 17, 2005, 12:53:44 PM
Quote
Has your standard of living IMPROVED due to Chinese imports?
Of course it has... The alternative is saying has my life been improved by coercive measures to STOP imports (tariffs and quotas), of course it hasn't. The problem isn't that the Chinese hold so many US T-bills. The problem is that America no longer makes anything worth buying. America has regulated and unionized itself into the same situation the UK found itself in the 1970's. Americans can't compete on price, or quality, for that matter. The only thing we CAN compete on is technology/innovation. But with the majority of Americans BS'ing on chat boards about "chinese takin' 'r jobs" rather then getting out and inventing/improving something worth buying, American's fall in standard of living will be inevitable.
China, India, and all the other up and coming quasi-capitalist countries are churning out hardworking citizens with Ph.D's and the will to improve their standard of living. American Universities are churning out lazy bums with comparative literature and ethnic/gender studies degrees, who DEMAND a secure academic job. No comparison between the two. American's want their Plasma Screen TV's, SUV's, and Camera Cellphones handed to them on a gilded platter. Just because you "work hard" doesn't mean you deserve anything, if it did Bangladesh would be a center of wealth and prosperity. No contrived solution from the Government except "getting out of the way" will allow America to keep its status as #1 Dog.
Quote
Some day the American manufacturers will realize that, as a result of their importing good jobs overseas, there aren't enough Americans who can afford to buy their products. There will be a lot of cheap, unsold products on the shelves.
The other thing that is happening is that the American manufacturers are training the imports to not only make, but sell and market . There are cases where the Asians learned how to manufacture from us, and then turned around and used that knowledge to make and sell their own, cheaper product.
really, I don't know what to say... maybe take an economics class or two. "importing(sic) good jobs overseas", stop it, milk is coming out of my nose.The other thing that is happening is that the American manufacturers are training the imports to not only make, but sell and market . There are cases where the Asians learned how to manufacture from us, and then turned around and used that knowledge to make and sell their own, cheaper product.
Suppose all t-shirts are 10 dollars in the united states, providing thousands of americans with "good jobs". Then suppose all the t-shirt companies fire all the workers, move the factories to India and start reaping huge profits. Due to competition, the dreaded "free market" will drive down the profit, now the price of the T-shirt is down to, say, 3 dollars. Now each American who buys a t-shirt, will save 7 dollars on that t-shirt. Keep in mind that 100 times the number of people that make t-shirts are t-shirt buyers. Now the 7 dollars they've saved can be spent on something else besides t-shirts, such as going out to dinner or vacationing. You see a net shift from things people don't want (namely expensive t-shirts) to things that people do want (such as dinner out or vacations). The on net standard of living has improved.
Sure it seems cruel for the people who had "good jobs" making t-shirts. But should we really mourn and try to "save" every inefficient job replaced in a free market? I'm sure all the elevator operators, full service gas operators, horse and buggy makers, whale oil lantern makers, typesetters, typewriter makers, radium watch dial painters, and blacksmiths, are really bummed that they became unemployed, but seriously, the standard of living would be MUCH MUCH lower if we tried to the movement towards more efficient means of production. Hiring cheap foreign labor at a fraction of the price of an American is really no different from mechanization or labor saving machines. To suggest that THOSE are bad really suggests a complete failing of public schools to ingrain any bit of economic logic into Americans.
atek3
Post by: Monkeyleg on July 17, 2005, 02:05:02 PM
My father and I agree that our trade imbalance with China is a problem. Where we disagree is whose fault it is. He maintains that it's our government's fault for not stopping businesses from shipping jobs over there. I maintain that it's because American consumers are willing to buy Chinese goods.
It's nearly impossible to buy a shirt that's not made in China or some other Southeast Asian country. Nearly impossible, but not impossible. Just expect to pay more. But also expect to get what you pay for. I spent $45 on a dress shirt made in (insert SE Asian country here). However, the quality doesn't measure up to a UK-made shirt I saw at a high-end men's clothing store for three times the price.
The same goes for other consumer items. The folks who go to Home Depot and buy a John Deere garden tractor think they're buying a real John Deere. They're not. It's a cheap knock-off of the models sold by John Deere dealers.
I own one pair of Allen Edmonds shoes, and three pair of Tony Llama boots. Nothing at Payless Shoes will last as long, feel as good, or look as good over the long haul. I'll get at least ten year's of use from them. It costs me $40 to have a pair of boots re-soled and re-heeled every two years or so. Thus, my initial cost of $200 per pair plus $200 ($40 every two years for cobbler work over a ten year period) means a pair of boots cost me $40 a year. I've had foreign-made boots and shoes last less than a year, and cost that much or more.
Post by: grampster on July 17, 2005, 02:28:11 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 17, 2005, 03:41:56 PM
Quote
My father and I agree that our trade imbalance with China is a problem. Where we disagree is whose fault it is. He maintains that it's our government's fault for not stopping businesses from shipping jobs over there. I maintain that it's because American consumers are willing to buy Chinese goods.
And maybe both of you are wrong. Maybe there is no problem at all. Maybe the issue is one of economics, that low-tech manufacturing that can be done with untrained labor is migrating to its lowest-cost origination point. This is called specialization, and is a main issue in economics.
Post by: stevelyn on July 17, 2005, 04:42:49 PM
Quote
America has regulated and unionized itself into the same situation the UK found itself in in the 70's
+1
Post by: Waitone on July 17, 2005, 05:19:35 PM
The reason companies head to China is not just labor savings. It is labor savings, and regulatory costs including but not limited to health costs (US funds healthcare privately, virtually every other country in the world is socialized), enviro costs (direct and indirect), safety (both private and public initiated), and overlapping all the foregoing----litigation. All these costs simply evaporate when a CEO says "China or Bust".
Meanwhile back at the forum we are busily eating the red herring our government just dragged across out path. We blame the Chinese, etc. when we should be vein-popping raging at what our government has done to us. The socialist paradise our congress, president, and courts created is now the cause of a shift in the economy that is of questionable origin.
One major, major (did I say, major) reason we bust out rears to produce in China is because the Chinese have fixed their currency to the dollar. Chinese currency does not float. Regardless of the performance of the dollar in world markets, the Chinese dollar is at a fixed discount. This particular trick gaurantees a net outflow of wealth from the US to China. International trade guru's think the Chinese dollar is undervalued by about 40%, meaning their products sell at a discount over what they would sell at if the currency floated. What is interesting here is the federales know what is going on and refuses to force China to float its currency. For whatever reason China refuses to abide by related terms of the WTO and the US does nothing to force their hand. Now why is that? Why is the US engaging is a policy which will encourage production to head for China to the detriment of US workers?
Its is good we are beginning to question the value of our current relationship to Red China, but we also need to question our relationship with our own government which in my view is creating the situation so many of us worry about.
Post by: Standing Wolf on July 17, 2005, 05:27:03 PM
Quote
In the next year or so, they're going to be selling their cars here in the US. Cars whose designs were stolen from GM.
Stealing car designs from General Motors is a lot like stealing intelligent ideas from the Democratic (sic) party.
Post by: brimic on July 17, 2005, 05:36:19 PM
Working in the chemical industry, companies that I've worked for have ordered raw materials from chinese chemical plants that about %50 of the time turned out to be complete garbage or contaminated by stuff such as iron filings or grass clippings. The materials that urned out to be ok tended to be very poorly packaged.
I pretty much have a mindset that anything chinese made isn't likely to do what its supposed to do and try to not buy it if possible.
Post by: brimic on July 17, 2005, 05:42:39 PM
Quote
I own one pair of Allen Edmonds shoes, and three pair of Tony Llama boots. Nothing at Payless Shoes will last as long, feel as good, or look as good over the long haul. I'll get at least ten year's of use from them. It costs me $40 to have a pair of boots re-soled and re-heeled every two years or so. Thus, my initial cost of $200 per pair plus $200 ($40 every two years for cobbler work over a ten year period) means a pair of boots cost m$40 a year. I've had foreign-made boots and shoes last less than a year, and cost that much or more.
I'm pretty much on the same wavelength as you. I had a pair of Dan Post boots that lasted me about 6 or 7 years and a couple of resolings- I'd still have them if my wife hadn't pitched them 
About the only brands I typically wear are Red Wing, Doc Martin, and Florsheim, because they all last a long time.
Post by: K Frame on July 17, 2005, 05:56:25 PM
Bless you for saying it and keeping me from having to say it.
Post by: telewinz on July 18, 2005, 02:57:55 PM
BTW; alot of American made products were/are junk. Ever own an American made car of the 60's and 70's?
"If you don't like American cars (and there inherent "shortcomings) don't buy them!" laugh, smile. Henry Ford Jr. soon after his retirement as broadcast in an interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes.
Post by: thorn on July 18, 2005, 03:53:07 PM
Bless you for saying it and keeping me from having to say it.<<<<<
they're not jsut stealing American designs. the poster obviously saw the same article i did, it is blatant theft , and several automakers are suing. the pics are almsot funny how much a ripoff the cars are.
the CRV is an S-RV
Post by: brimic on July 18, 2005, 04:22:06 PM
Quote
BTW; alot of American made products were/are junk. Ever own an American made car of the 60's and 70's?
I owned a GM car made in the mid 70s that lasted 250,000 miles, I also owned a few made by Gm and Ford in the 80's that didn't last 100,000 miles. Quote
Stealing car designs from General Motors is a lot like stealing intelligent ideas from the Democratic (sic) party."
LOL. Stealing Chrysler designs would be like stealing ideas from the Green party. 
Post by: The Rabbi on July 18, 2005, 04:57:32 PM
Quote
Have you EVER seen a poor doctor or lawyer?
Yes. Often as a matter of fact.
Post by: telewinz on July 18, 2005, 10:27:48 PM
Average income USA 1995
Mean Income ($/yr)
Education Both sexes Males Females
Not high school graduate 20,442 22,454 16,049
High School graduate 27,038 31,063 21,298
Some college, no degree 31,128 36,546 23,298
Associate's degree 33,425 37,628 28,510
Bachelor's degree 44,523 51,998 33,665
Master's degree 55,384 64,544 41,676
Doctorate 72,099 77,815 55,041
Professional Degree 98,197 111,654 59,793
Post by: The Rabbi on July 19, 2005, 04:32:06 AM
I have never seen an "average" person. I have seen only individuals. And a number of individuals I have seen are in fact doctors and lawyers. My wife also sees both doctors and lawyers. She works for a lawyer, in this case a Chapter 7 bankruptcy trustee. Part of her job is going to the meeting of creditors, so she sees many many debtors. Believe it or not, at least some of those debtors are doctors and lawyers.
I also see such people and have seen a good number in very poor circumstances.
Post by: telewinz on July 19, 2005, 12:29:39 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 19, 2005, 01:48:23 PM
Quote
Since when is debtor "poor"?
You dont consider a bankrupt to be poor? I'd like to see your definition of poor then. Maybe merely having a JD or MD degree suddenly confers magic wealth?And I wouldnt go spreading it around about your brother....
Post by: K Frame on July 19, 2005, 03:26:03 PM
A few years ago through my church I met a very fascinating medical doctor. He was also a minister. His entire practice was where the church sent him. It paid him a salary that most of us would laugh at.
He had gotten his medical degree via the US government, spent some years in the Army as a doctor, and when discharged due to medical reasons, immediately started doing medical missionary work.
When I met him he was doing medical missionary work in some of the worst neighborhoods in Philadelphia. Prior to that he'd been in Africa, Asia, South America, and was itching to go back to Asia.
Post by: telewinz on July 19, 2005, 10:54:52 PM
Total compensation of Physicians by Specialty; 2002
Anesthesiology $306,964
Surgery, general $255,438
Obstetrics/Gynecology $233,061
Internal medicine $155,530
Pediatrics/Adolescent medicine $152,690
Psychiatry $163,144
Family Practice $150,267
Post by: Sindawe on July 19, 2005, 11:13:22 PM
Quote
Maybe there is a good reason why people "assume" doctors are not poor
Ob-Gyn: 2002, $23,000/year. This does not include costs of office space if in private practice, salary+taxes for any nurses/medical assistants, the receptionist, the equipment, the cost to stay current on licence's and training, supplies and the like.Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/02/eveningnews/consumer/main610102.shtml
As for being "poor", frell, the majority of the "poor" in our culture live better than the Kings of old, with easy access to plentiful food, adequate shelter, 500 channels of entertainmnet 24x7 in their "court" and health care beyond the dreams of the insane in days past. While I'll not call the professionals of our society "rich", I'll also not call most of the poor of it "impoverished" while (and other classes) daily cart about several months worth of fat reserves on their bodies.
As for the Chinese Imports improving my standard of living, no, it has not. Sure I can by cheap stuff at Wally World and the like, but its still cheap stuff for the most part, not something my great grand neices and nephews will cherish. If they get it, since I plan to be around using the stuff when THEY are adults.
Post by: brimic on July 20, 2005, 01:14:17 AM
I make quite a bit more than any of the figures Telewinz quoted for a person with a bachelors degree. I don't have any student loans left to pay off let alone some of the 6 figure loans that doctors pay off after med school, don't have to buy malpractice insurance, don't have to rent office space in a clinic etc.
I feel that I'm not any worse off than a doctor with their financial burdens. I'm almost starting to think that nurses are starting to have it better than doctors- job security and opportunities wherever they want to live and high pay. My sister pulls down $65K a year, works 3 days a week in a rural area as a RN.
Post by: K Frame on July 20, 2005, 03:56:52 AM
All that, and they get paid for it, too...
That's a median average.
Think of it as a bell curve.
There are a lot of doctors who earn a lot less than that, and there are others who earn a lot more.
There's another consideration that has to be factored in. Most doctors leave medical school with a massive debt load.
My friend Mo, for example. Brilliant woman. Went to Georgetown undergrad, Yale Med School, and is a pediatrician.
She entered residence with school loan debts of close to $200,000.
If you look at her raw salary, yep, she might be "wealthy," but I've seen the size of the check that she cuts to the school loan people every month.
Let's just say that there's not a lot of discretionary income there right now, and it's going to be quite a few years until she's rolling in the wealth to which her education and abilities have directed her.
Post by: telewinz on July 20, 2005, 12:15:27 PM
The HealthGrades Patient Safety in American Hospitals study is the first to look at the mortality and economic impact of medical errors and injuries that occurred during Medicare hospital admissions nationwide from 2000 to 2002. The HealthGrades study applied the mortality and economic impact models developed by Dr. Chunliu Zhan and Dr. Marlene R. Miller in a research study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in October of 2003. The Zhan and Miller study supported the Institute of Medicines (IOM) 1999 report conclusion, which found that medical errors caused up to 98,000 deaths annually and should be considered a national epidemic.
Post by: The Rabbi on July 20, 2005, 12:57:45 PM
Telewinz, all you have done is cite income statistics. Income is meaningless in wealth. So I ask again, what is your definition of poor?
Post by: telewinz on July 20, 2005, 02:48:16 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on July 20, 2005, 05:51:33 PM