Post by: roo_ster on February 06, 2008, 08:33:28 AM
Western Civilization and Other Fairy Tales
The sad story of the decline of historical sensibility.
By Jonah Goldberg
My daughter really, really, really (throw in a few more reallys for accuracy) wants to go to Disney World. Scouting reports from several of her preschool colleagues indicate that there is a large amount of princess activity down there. And not just princesses real princesses. Shes seen fake Cinderellas and Ariels the royal equivalents of shopping mall Santas but now shes focused on engaging the real thing, and shes been told that Disney World is where they hang their tiaras. So one day, probably very soon, well be heading to Florida to meet the real princesses who, despite presumably lavish wealth, charge parents $200 a day or more to take our children to meet them.
I just hope that while were there, Daddy can have some fun, too. For instance, I would love to meet the real Winston Churchill.
You do know Churchill was make-believe, right? That, at least, is what nearly a quarter of British teens recently told pollsters for the British TV channel UKTV Gold. Meanwhile, 58 percent thought Sherlock Holmes was real, and 47 percent called Richard the Lionheart a fictional character.
This is one of those news stories that pop up with some regularity, highlighting how ignorant people on both sides of the Atlantic are about their own civilization. Its a slightly more scientific confirmation of Jay Lenos man-on-the-street Jaywalking segment, in which he asks passersby brainteasers such as, Where was the Vietnam War fought? or, When did the War of 1812 take place?
A survey of teenagers conducted by the National Constitutional Center found more students able to name the Three Stooges (59 percent) than could name the three branches of U.S. government (41 percent). A 1999 survey of students at 55 elite colleges and universities found that 40 percent couldnt place the U.S. Civil War in the correct half-century. Given that the U.S. hasnt been around for five half-centuries yet, I wonder how many guesses these students needed.
The civic ignorance of the American public is an old lament, a standby for finger-wagging, chin-pulling pundits like yours truly in need of column fodder. And its probably true that it was ever thus, to some extent; that the masses never had much use for historical dates and names. Though if you read letters written by soldiers during the Civil War, its hard not to suspect that cultural literacy has been trending southward for a long time (unless, of course, you think the Civil War only happened recently).
But here I get back to my daughter. She is a barbarian, or at least she was when she was born. And I mean this fairly literally. Political theorist Hannah Arendt once said that, every generation, Western civilization is invaded by barbarians we call them children. Todays babies arent meaningfully different from those born 1,000 or 5,000 years ago. A Viking baby magically transported to 21st-century America might grow up to be an accountant or a bus driver. A baby born today and sent back in time might become a Hun, Visigoth or Aztec warrior, whatever his parents expected of him.
Families are civilization factories. They take children and install the necessary software, from what to expect from life to how to treat others. One hears a lot of platitudes about how children are taught to hate. This is nonsense. Hating comes naturally to humans, and children are perfectly capable of learning to hate on their own. Indeed, everyone hates. The differences between good people and bad resides in what they hate, and why. And although schools and society can teach that, parents imprint it on their kids.
As a conservative, Im a big believer in the importance of tradition, which writer G.K. Chesterton dubbed democracy of the dead. But tradition can only be as strong as it is in the people who pass it on. And so, when I read that 23 percent of British teens think Winston Churchill is no more real than Spider-Man, it makes me shudder at the voluntary amnesia of society, the wholesale abdication of parental responsibility that represents.
Civilization, at any given moment, can be boiled down to what its living members know and believe. This makes civilization an amazingly fragile thing, and it makes parents the primary guardians of its posterity. Indeed, someone once told me that those who cannot learn from history are condemned to hear George Santayana quoted to them for the rest of their lives. Of course, that jokes only funny if youve heard of Santayana in the first place.
Now, because even my daughters minor joys are my greatest ones, I will gladly fork over large sums of money so she can dine with fairy-tale princesses. I will even play along. But she is only 4, and Ill only be pretending.
The sad story of the decline of historical sensibility.
By Jonah Goldberg
My daughter really, really, really (throw in a few more reallys for accuracy) wants to go to Disney World. Scouting reports from several of her preschool colleagues indicate that there is a large amount of princess activity down there. And not just princesses real princesses. Shes seen fake Cinderellas and Ariels the royal equivalents of shopping mall Santas but now shes focused on engaging the real thing, and shes been told that Disney World is where they hang their tiaras. So one day, probably very soon, well be heading to Florida to meet the real princesses who, despite presumably lavish wealth, charge parents $200 a day or more to take our children to meet them.
I just hope that while were there, Daddy can have some fun, too. For instance, I would love to meet the real Winston Churchill.
You do know Churchill was make-believe, right? That, at least, is what nearly a quarter of British teens recently told pollsters for the British TV channel UKTV Gold. Meanwhile, 58 percent thought Sherlock Holmes was real, and 47 percent called Richard the Lionheart a fictional character.
This is one of those news stories that pop up with some regularity, highlighting how ignorant people on both sides of the Atlantic are about their own civilization. Its a slightly more scientific confirmation of Jay Lenos man-on-the-street Jaywalking segment, in which he asks passersby brainteasers such as, Where was the Vietnam War fought? or, When did the War of 1812 take place?
A survey of teenagers conducted by the National Constitutional Center found more students able to name the Three Stooges (59 percent) than could name the three branches of U.S. government (41 percent). A 1999 survey of students at 55 elite colleges and universities found that 40 percent couldnt place the U.S. Civil War in the correct half-century. Given that the U.S. hasnt been around for five half-centuries yet, I wonder how many guesses these students needed.
The civic ignorance of the American public is an old lament, a standby for finger-wagging, chin-pulling pundits like yours truly in need of column fodder. And its probably true that it was ever thus, to some extent; that the masses never had much use for historical dates and names. Though if you read letters written by soldiers during the Civil War, its hard not to suspect that cultural literacy has been trending southward for a long time (unless, of course, you think the Civil War only happened recently).
But here I get back to my daughter. She is a barbarian, or at least she was when she was born. And I mean this fairly literally. Political theorist Hannah Arendt once said that, every generation, Western civilization is invaded by barbarians we call them children. Todays babies arent meaningfully different from those born 1,000 or 5,000 years ago. A Viking baby magically transported to 21st-century America might grow up to be an accountant or a bus driver. A baby born today and sent back in time might become a Hun, Visigoth or Aztec warrior, whatever his parents expected of him.
Families are civilization factories. They take children and install the necessary software, from what to expect from life to how to treat others. One hears a lot of platitudes about how children are taught to hate. This is nonsense. Hating comes naturally to humans, and children are perfectly capable of learning to hate on their own. Indeed, everyone hates. The differences between good people and bad resides in what they hate, and why. And although schools and society can teach that, parents imprint it on their kids.
As a conservative, Im a big believer in the importance of tradition, which writer G.K. Chesterton dubbed democracy of the dead. But tradition can only be as strong as it is in the people who pass it on. And so, when I read that 23 percent of British teens think Winston Churchill is no more real than Spider-Man, it makes me shudder at the voluntary amnesia of society, the wholesale abdication of parental responsibility that represents.
Civilization, at any given moment, can be boiled down to what its living members know and believe. This makes civilization an amazingly fragile thing, and it makes parents the primary guardians of its posterity. Indeed, someone once told me that those who cannot learn from history are condemned to hear George Santayana quoted to them for the rest of their lives. Of course, that jokes only funny if youve heard of Santayana in the first place.
Now, because even my daughters minor joys are my greatest ones, I will gladly fork over large sums of money so she can dine with fairy-tale princesses. I will even play along. But she is only 4, and Ill only be pretending.
Post by: Tecumseh on February 06, 2008, 08:45:39 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
Post by: Standing Wolf on February 06, 2008, 09:28:38 AM
Quote
Indeed, someone once told me that those who cannot learn from history are condemned to hear George Santayana quoted to them for the rest of their lives. Of course, that jokes only funny if youve heard of Santayana in the first place.
History makes it abundantly clear no one learns from history.
Post by: Manedwolf on February 06, 2008, 09:31:43 AM
As it is, we keep forgetting and repeating things, advancing in jerky rachets upward with the occasional drop back to near the bottom.
Post by: Dntsycnt on February 06, 2008, 09:33:48 AM
Here is another interesting read...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
I got eighty percent...I find it depressing that that is so much above average, as I am in no way a particularly intelligent individual, and never paid attention in History classes.
Post by: roo_ster on February 06, 2008, 09:42:44 AM
Quote
Indeed, someone once told me that those who cannot learn from history are condemned to hear George Santayana quoted to them for the rest of their lives. Of course, that jokes only funny if youve heard of Santayana in the first place.
History makes it abundantly clear no one learns from history.
I disagree. Some folks in some places do learn.
Our founding fathers claimed to stand on the shoulders of giants--those who had gone before them in W Civ.
Post by: Manedwolf on February 06, 2008, 09:47:02 AM
Quote
Indeed, someone once told me that those who cannot learn from history are condemned to hear George Santayana quoted to them for the rest of their lives. Of course, that jokes only funny if youve heard of Santayana in the first place.
History makes it abundantly clear no one learns from history.
I disagree. Some folks in some places do learn.
Our founding fathers claimed to stand on the shoulders of giants--those who had gone before them in W Civ.
Well, we borrowed a hell of a lot from the Romans. Their Republic, their symbols, their Latin mottos...
...and in the 19th century, even their architecture. American 19th century architecture in cities, especially brick buildings with keystoned windows, were dead ringers for Roman Insulae, which were up to nine stories tall with shops on the lower level.
However, that was only possible through records. Western civilization fell after the Romans and Greeks. The Dark Ages were a long period of squalor and superstition before the Renaissance. And even that, while it brought back the arts, did not bring back the knowledge of medicine and hygiene that the earlier civilizations' upper classes had. People were filthy and suffered from unscientific quack medicine till nearly the 20th century.
That's one of the things people really don't think about. For most of history, humanity STANK. It was only classical civilizations like the Egyptians, Romans and the like in the West where the upper and middle classes valued hygiene, bathed with olive-oil soaps and would have been tolerable to be around for someone of today!
Eastern civilizations like China never really fell, but that's an entirely different story.
Post by: The Viking on February 06, 2008, 11:06:59 AM
Here is another interesting read...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
I got eighty percent...I find it depressing that that is so much above average, as I am in no way a particularly intelligent individual, and never paid attention in History classes.
Post by: Boomhauer on February 06, 2008, 11:09:05 AM
Here is another interesting read...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
I got eighty percent...I find it depressing that that is so much above average, as I am in no way a particularly intelligent individual, and never paid attention in History classes.
Quote
) The Constitution of the United States established what form of government?
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy
This question is incorrect as far as answers. C should be "Constitutional Republic". Democracy was a dirty word until FDR came along...
I got 83 percent. Yeah, not knowing much about US history would definitely hurt- but you probably did pretty well, Viking, in regards to the test.
Post by: richyoung on February 06, 2008, 11:37:32 AM
Quote
You answered 56 out of 60 correctly 93.33 %
Post by: The Viking on February 06, 2008, 11:37:45 AM
Here is another interesting read...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-09-17-history-test_N.htm
I got eighty percent...I find it depressing that that is so much above average, as I am in no way a particularly intelligent individual, and never paid attention in History classes.
Quote
) The Constitution of the United States established what form of government?
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy
This question is incorrect as far as answers. C should be "Constitutional Republic". Democracy was a dirty word until FDR came along...
I got 83 percent. Yeah, not knowing much about US history would definitely hurt- but you probably did pretty well, Viking, in regards to the test.
Post by: wooderson on February 06, 2008, 12:44:46 PM
Post by: Fjolnirsson on February 06, 2008, 01:05:52 PM
Guess I need to work on that. although, looking at my answers marked incorrect, they were mostly the ones I went back and changed from the correct answers..
Interesting...
Post by: MechAg94 on February 06, 2008, 01:09:31 PM
I thought we wanted our schools to emphasize "real world skills," rather than this faggy liberal arts nonsense?
I think what we want is for schools to teach kids to think. Skills like mathematics, vocabulary, reading, and writing help do that. A basic understanding of history can help develop that also IMO. Knowing what has been done before can give you a good idea of the possibilities for the future.
Post by: Werewolf on February 06, 2008, 01:28:31 PM
Quote
You answered 57 out of 60 correctly 95.00 %
Average score for this quiz during February: 68.4%
Average score since September 18, 2007: 68.4%
Average score for this quiz during February: 68.4%
Average score since September 18, 2007: 68.4%
Quote
Answers to Your Missed Questions:
Question #19 - C. philosopher kings.
Question #36 - D. The authority of a legitimate sovereign.
Question #60 - B. social security
Question #19 - C. philosopher kings.
Question #36 - D. The authority of a legitimate sovereign.
Question #60 - B. social security
Hmmmm... Better than I thought I'd do though I did figure on around 85% or so.
But then I am a semi-old fart and went to school when school actually meant learning.
Post by: Strings on February 06, 2008, 02:07:05 PM
Post by: mustanger98 on February 06, 2008, 02:49:38 PM
Huh. 75%. Not as good as I would hope, but not bad, considering that my school taught "social studies", rather than American history, and my last class of this sort was n 1990...
Guess I need to work on that. although, looking at my answers marked incorrect, they were mostly the ones I went back and changed from the correct answers..
Interesting...
Guess I need to work on that. although, looking at my answers marked incorrect, they were mostly the ones I went back and changed from the correct answers..
Interesting...
My "social studies" classes were 4th and 5th grades in 1984-86 along with 9th grade in 1987. I recall during the 5th grade, Cousin Gunny asked me about my subjects and I mentioned social studies... he was like "what's social studies". Mom had to explain the difference being that they combined history, geography, a couple of other subjects since they were in school. Being that I was geared to look stuff up when different subjects came up, I didn't really lack in American History either.
Post by: Bogie on February 06, 2008, 02:57:43 PM
Post by: Fly320s on February 06, 2008, 04:03:38 PM
Post by: wooderson on February 06, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
Quote
But then I am a semi-old fart and went to school when school actually meant learning.
What's changed since you went to school, specifically? How much do you actually know about a high-school curriculum in this day and age?
What did the schools teach "back in the day" that are no longer widely teached - which facts or which methodologies are missing?
Post by: RevDisk on February 06, 2008, 06:05:11 PM
Quote
) The Constitution of the United States established what form of government?
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy
This question is incorrect as far as answers. C should be "Constitutional Republic". Democracy was a dirty word until FDR came along...
A republic is a form of indirect democracy. As is a constitutional republic. If you have any form of democracy that involves someone acting on your behalf at the people's choosing, that is an indirect democracy. Ie, if you elect anyone to any position to rule on your behalf, you have an indirect democracy. We do not have a direct democracy.
Technically D is partially correct too. The people for instance do not elect the president. The wonderful Electorial College does. Now I wouldn't exactly want to be the Electorial College if they strayed too far from the popular sentiments, but it still exists.
86.67 % and I'm a history nut. I'm actually kinda depressed that I did so badly. I do admit, I've always been bad at memorizing dates.
Post by: Vodka7 on February 06, 2008, 06:19:57 PM
Quote
You answered 45 out of 60 correctly 75.00 %
Average score for this quiz during February: 68.8%
Average score since September 18, 2007: 68.8%
Average score for this quiz during February: 68.8%
Average score since September 18, 2007: 68.8%
Ouch. Although, honestly, nothing that surprisrising for me--I'm not a good history student. How I squeaked out a 4 on the AP US History exam is still a mystery to me, my teacher, and every single person I took that class with. At least the stuff I learned I retained--most of the questions I got wrong were things I had literally never heard of (I did not do well on anything relating to economics, shamefully.)
Post by: Bogie on February 06, 2008, 06:24:51 PM
For that matter, why, in Bob's name, would someone drive five miles on a freakin' flat tire, when they KNEW it was flat, had a cell phone, a wal-mart handy, and family inside that five miles...
Sigh...
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on February 06, 2008, 06:26:13 PM
I dispute one or two of the answers it says were wrong.
Post by: wooderson on February 06, 2008, 07:11:46 PM
Quote
Well, in the area where I went to school, we had to learn problem solving at an early age... Farming and all that... So it drives me nuts when I see an 18 year old kid who just LOOKS at something that's -almost- broken, and -can be saved- from being broken if he just actually does something.
That has nothing to do with schooling. We live in a white-collar, information-heavy society, with a consumer economy driven by cheap and easy replacement. Being able to 'fix things' - manual labor - is not as valuable a skill today as it was 20, 50, 100 years ago.And in any case, was most likely taught in the family rather than at school - but now dad's an IT worker and mom's a lawyer, rather than a farmer/factory worker and a housewife.
Post by: Kaylee on February 06, 2008, 09:27:10 PM
But anyhow, that test ain't "liberal arts." Modern Liberal Arts seems to be reading 'Despairing Novels of the 20th Century,' writing about how they make you feeeeeeel, and piling a bunch of trash in the College Quad and calling it art. :p A goodly amount of that test is economic theory and history - something that's sadly underrepresented in modern education I'd say. Good to see it there actually!
ManedWolf - WOW - never seen that before - that's cool! I'll never see a late 19th c. downtown the same again.
-K
Post by: Tecumseh on February 07, 2008, 02:57:41 AM
Huh. 75%. Not as good as I would hope, but not bad, considering that my school taught "social studies", rather than American history, and my last class of this sort was n 1990...
Guess I need to work on that. although, looking at my answers marked incorrect, they were mostly the ones I went back and changed from the correct answers..
Interesting...
My school tought both interestingly enough.
Guess I need to work on that. although, looking at my answers marked incorrect, they were mostly the ones I went back and changed from the correct answers..
Interesting...
Post by: Dntsycnt on February 07, 2008, 05:35:15 AM
Post by: BridgeWalker on February 07, 2008, 06:17:01 AM
Post by: Tallpine on February 07, 2008, 07:22:36 AM
Quote
Well, in the area where I went to school, we had to learn problem solving at an early age... Farming and all that... So it drives me nuts when I see an 18 year old kid who just LOOKS at something that's -almost- broken, and -can be saved- from being broken if he just actually does something.
Sometimes people ask me where I learned to program computers. I always say: "from my days working in the timber as a logger."
Sure, I went to school after that, but the problem solving ability I gained from trying to fix old bulldozers and getting trucks unstuck from the mud.
Nuts and bolts or bits and bytes - it's all about solving a problem in the simplest and most efficient manner.
Quote
that jokes only funny if youve heard of Santayana in the first place
I though everybody knew that Santayana was the mexican general at the Battle of the Alamo ...
Post by: SADShooter on February 07, 2008, 07:54:05 AM
Post by: Werewolf on February 07, 2008, 12:38:28 PM
Quote
But then I am a semi-old fart and went to school when school actually meant learning.
What's changed since you went to school, specifically? How much do you actually know about a high-school curriculum in this day and age?
What did the schools teach "back in the day" that are no longer widely teached - which facts or which methodologies are missing?
I raised three daughters to adulthood all graduated out of the public <puke> school system by the year 2000.
1. Hours - 20% fewer hours in a school day than when I went to school
2. Choice of courses - at HS level - not as broad
3. Requirement to graduate - 10% fewer credits
4. Days - now start in Aug end in May vs Start in Aug end in June
5. Time spent on BS like feel good *expletive deleted*it, parties for every holiday, grief counseling, the sun didn't come up today counseling -
6. Lower emphasis on core courses - math, science, history
7. Lack of discipline - their peers got away with stuff that would have gotten kids in my day kicked out of school - cussing at teachers, always tardy/absent, not doing homework, talking in class, dressing like the scum of the earth, beards, slutty clothes on girls etc
8. Everyone gets an award for something instead of just those who actually deserve one - part of that feel good thing
9. Teachers - probably not their fault - but they just don't seem to teach anymore - hamstrung by silly policies that mix up the smart, average and dummies so that teachers have to teach to the lowest common denominator.
I started noticing stuff like that when I realized my kids were learning stuff in the 6th grade I learned in the 3rd and that lag pretty much stayed constant right up thru HS. 2 of 'em are now in college - their piss poor public education is now coming back to haunt them.
Where I work I have to deal with lots of HS graduates - most of 'em barely know where the US is on a map let alone where the rest of the world is, History - forget about it - they either did or never learned it. Math - hah - without a calculator they can't add 2 and 2 together and get 4 twice in a row. I've had to let more than one go because they can't fill out something as simple as a time sheet and some because they couldn't work simple percentages.
I have ZERO respect for the education system as it existed when my kids went to school and less now as I see the results of it on a daily basis.
Post by: Balog on February 07, 2008, 12:46:27 PM
Post by: BozemanMT on February 07, 2008, 01:40:38 PM
Post by: Vodka7 on February 07, 2008, 01:59:36 PM
Well, in the area where I went to school, we had to learn problem solving at an early age... Farming and all that... So it drives me nuts when I see an 18 year old kid who just LOOKS at something that's -almost- broken, and -can be saved- from being broken if he just actually does something.
For that matter, why, in Bob's name, would someone drive five miles on a freakin' flat tire, when they KNEW it was flat, had a cell phone, a wal-mart handy, and family inside that five miles...
For that matter, why, in Bob's name, would someone drive five miles on a freakin' flat tire, when they KNEW it was flat, had a cell phone, a wal-mart handy, and family inside that five miles...
God, isn't that the truth. I work at a fairly small store--there's maybe ten of us total. Today, one of the two toilets broke. People fixed this by.... Ignoring it.
I came in to a toilet filled with piss, so I lifted the top off the tank to take a look. The chain had rusted out and snapped. Not a single person who used the toilet before me knew how to make it flush without using the handle... *sigh* I ended up having to make a diagram and circling the part to lift to flush it.
And really, this is just one in a long string of similar stories. One time a cabinet door fell off, and the solution was to hide the door in the back. It took five minutes and nothing more complicated than a Bic pen and a Philips head screwdriver to fix. I really wonder about people like this--I'm not handy at all, and I'm not particularly good at putting things together without instructions, but wow. Did these people just grow up calling someone every time the smallest thing broke?
Post by: Bogie on February 07, 2008, 03:26:58 PM
Post by: Werewolf on February 07, 2008, 04:22:49 PM
Growing a beard in high school was grounds for getting expelled in your day 'wolf? Was your school taught by Marines?
I graduated HS in 1970. North Side of San Antonio, TX. Strict dress code; no beards, mustaches, hair over the ears all verboten. No jeans allowed, girls couldn't wear pants at all and skirts no higher than 2 or 3 fingers above the knee.There was a very large middle class military population that made up most of the school district. I imagine those folks, my parents included, had not a little say in the school rules.
Post by: mustanger98 on February 07, 2008, 04:32:31 PM
What surprises most folks about me is that my Mom taught me to read at age 3-4. So I really don't remember not knowing how.