Post by: takhtakaal on February 12, 2008, 04:46:05 AM
This guy is a Portuguese MP (At least I think he's "M") standing guard in East Timor, holding something that I thought was verboten? I get confused with the "do we honor the Hague Convention or don't we, and, if so, which one?" conversations that I see on boards from time to time. One might think that if anyone were to honor something like that, it might be them?
Nice color on that uniform and vehicle, too ... *whop* *whop* *whop* *whop* ... [ducks head].
Post by: HankB on February 12, 2008, 05:15:45 AM
Shot cartridges were issued for Thompson SMGs used in the Pacific during WWII.
Post by: takhtakaal on February 12, 2008, 05:20:19 AM
My point is the complete fog around the Hague Convention, what the signatories have really agreed to, and if a shotgun is within the realm of a weapon that it would find acceptable. And if not, why is the UN with their "twisted pistol" carting them around?
Post by: Manedwolf on February 12, 2008, 05:25:44 AM
Shotguns have been used in warfare for a LONG time - they were even made up special (with bayonet lugs!) for US forces since WWI.
And the Germans made a huge fuss about the trench brooms being "inhumane".
Post by: ilbob on February 12, 2008, 05:51:46 AM
Pretty much everyone has ignored most of these conventions when it is convenient to do so.
Post by: The Viking on February 12, 2008, 06:00:19 AM
Shotguns have been used in warfare for a LONG time - they were even made up special (with bayonet lugs!) for US forces since WWI.
And the Germans made a huge fuss about the trench brooms being "inhumane".
Post by: K Frame on February 12, 2008, 06:12:45 AM
The shotgun is not prohibited by the Hague Conventions.
No German carrying a sawback bayonet was ever shot.
The Germans threatened to shoot Americans captured with the shotgun, the US threatened to shoot Germans captured with the sawback bayonet.
The Germans ended up withdrawing the sawback bayonet, but the US never withdrew the shotgun.
Americans used shotguns extensively in Vietnam where they were good for jungle fighting. Few were used in Korea. Shotguns were also used in Gulf War I and are still being used in Iraq, especially in urban areas.
Post by: roo_ster on February 12, 2008, 06:25:44 AM
Post by: HankB on February 12, 2008, 08:04:43 AM
Shot cartridges were issued during WW II not for the Thompson, but for 1911s.
Regardless of what Ordnance thought, they were used in SMGs for use in exceptionally dense jungle at extremely close range; they appeared in the PTO in quantities far beyond "aircrew survival" needs.A burst from a Thompson loaded with these and the bushes - and any Jap immediately behind the bushes - basically melted.
I still have one round my Dad brought back - the "bullet" is a red, cardboard-like material formed into a rather blunt round nose shape. (I'll have to see if it will fit in a 1911 mag.) Dad also told me there was another type of round also, with a longer-than normal brass case . . .
After an initial flurry of excitement, the less than sterling reliability (the cardboard tended to split) and lack of stopping power with only small increases in range caused these to fall out of favor with the troops.
Some sources say these were intended as "riot cartridges" for the Thompson SMG. I suppose being peppered with birdshot when someone opened up with an SMG (presumably somewhere out beyond point-blank range) would discourage rioters.
Shotguns have been used in warfare for a LONG time - they were even made up special (with bayonet lugs!) for US forces since WWI.
And the Germans made a huge fuss about the trench brooms being "inhumane".
Post by: K Frame on February 12, 2008, 08:19:44 AM
First, the shot is very small, on the order of No. 6. In dense jungle cover it would be virtually useless past a few feet, if that. It would be a worse choice than straight ball ammo. Even shotguns loaded with buckshot had limited range in the jungle due to the heavy leaf and brush canopy, but within that range gave better chance of a hit with less chance of the brush deflecting the projectile.
Second, they will not function the action of either a 1911 or a Thompson -- in neither gun will the rounds, upon firing, eject or cycle the action enough to pick up a new round out of the magazine. In other words, there's no ripping off a magazine or two of these shot cartridges unless the firer does so manually.
Third, feeding these rounds through a magazine is, at best, an iffy proposition. They were designed to be single loaded into the 1911. Survival kits contained a box with, IIRC, 12 rounds of ball and 12 rounds of shot ammo.
CCI's .45 ACP shotshells are very close to the military shotshells of WW II, both dimensionally and ballistically.
There was a shot cartridge developed for the Thompson for use in riot control prior to World War II, IIRC, the early 1930s. However, this was not the basis for the military's shot cartridges during the War. Shot size and power was quite a bit different, and there's no indication that these cartridges were ever considered for distribution during the war. In fact, I'm fairly certain that they had been out of production for a number of years by the time the US entered the War.
OK, Phil Sharpe says Peters developed the riot cartridge for the Thompson in about 1922.
Post by: grampster on February 12, 2008, 08:36:18 AM
Post by: Bogie on February 12, 2008, 10:02:16 AM
A long necked cartridge that holds a 3-piece bullet... Either three long/skinnies or three short/fats... No accuracy, but one heck of a lot of firepower inside 100 yards... I wonder how far you'd get three long/skinnies spreading at 50 yards? Sabotize the suckers, and I bet they hold together longer...
Post by: HankB on February 12, 2008, 11:31:55 AM
You know what would be cool?
A long necked cartridge that holds a 3-piece bullet... Either three long/skinnies or three short/fats... No accuracy, but one heck of a lot of firepower inside 100 yards... I wonder how far you'd get three long/skinnies spreading at 50 yards? Sabotize the suckers, and I bet they hold together longer...
Back when the M14 was still the standard service rifle, the Army experimented with "Duplex" rounds - two spitzers, with the back one's nose nested inside the hollow base of the front one. They separated after firing, and when fired at a target, tended to form a central group a couple of inches in diameter with the other rounds forming a "circle" around them, a foot or so (?) out.
A long necked cartridge that holds a 3-piece bullet... Either three long/skinnies or three short/fats... No accuracy, but one heck of a lot of firepower inside 100 yards... I wonder how far you'd get three long/skinnies spreading at 50 yards? Sabotize the suckers, and I bet they hold together longer...
Post by: crt360 on February 12, 2008, 11:32:14 AM
Post by: lupinus on February 12, 2008, 11:55:07 AM