Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 04:58:00 AM
President encounters left-wing protestors during visit to Nazi resistance museum
Aviram Zino
President Shimon Peres encountered some not so pleasant left-wing protestors on Wednesday during a visit to a museum on Nazi resistance groups during World War II in the French city of Lyon as part of his official state visit to the European country.
Some far left activists held a demonstration at the museum where they dubbed Peres and Israel "criminal," called for Israel "to be erased," and said "the resistance in Gaza is legitimate."
The incident led to a brief scuffle when French police arrived on the scene and attempted to use force to evacuate the protestors. The activists did not give up and sat down on the ground with interlocked arms in order to avoid being forcibly removed. Police struggled with the demonstrators for several minutes before they managed to expel them from the area.
A member of the president's delegation said: "The calls for Israel's destruction are severe given the sensitivity of the place (where they were uttered). Nonetheless, this is an extreme left radical group that does not comprise a significant bloc in regional politics."
This incident notwithstanding, Peres' staff expressed satisfaction with the president's visit to France.
Later on Wednesday, Peres is expected to inaugurate a center for Jewish education in Lyon the biggest of its kind in Europe. Afterwards, he is scheduled to eat lunch with the president of the Lyon district.
Peres met in Paris with his French counterpart Nicholas Sarkozy on Monday. During the visit, Peres received France's highest award, the Legion of Honor.
Sarkozy told the president: "It is a great honor for me to greet you here as the president of the State of Israel, but it is an even greater honor to greet you as Shimon Peres. I have a lot of respect for you and I view you as a symbol."
MicroBalrog Sez:
Look, people, this is just retarded. The man is one of the most pro-peace politician Israel has. He is a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate for the love of God.
But it seems to me that there's two kinds of peace protestor nowadays. The kind that actually want peace because they care for the welfare of both sides in a conflict, and the kind that just support whoever it is opposes the West/America/ Israel.
Peres is of the former kind he genuinely cares about the plight both of the Jews and the Palestinians, and had initiated various projects to help them bootstrap themselves out of the poverty they're in. These Frenchmen are clearly the latter.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 12, 2008, 05:11:26 AM
They're a resident of something-stan, usually, who left there because it was such a toilet, moved to France, and now refuses to have anything to do with French culture. They live in ethnic enclaves and only associate with others of their level of intolerance, sitting around in a pit of reinforced hostility instead of trying to actually live in the country they're living in.
France is eventually going to need to deport that sort before it turns into a Balkanized mess around the Paris suburbs. When it's "normal" for a hundred cars to be burnt a night in "protest", when gangs of "youths" are laying ambushes for police and firing shotguns at them (!) you have problems.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 12, 2008, 05:14:02 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 05:14:47 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 12, 2008, 05:18:07 AM
ManedWolf, I invite you to visit the Tel-Aviv University campus any day. Chances are the morons holding the END THE HOLOCAUST OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE signs are about as radically-Muslim as you or I.
If they want to end their "holocaust", they'd get Hamas and Fatah to stop killing their own people and using their own people as human shields.
Until they can see past the fact that most of their deaths are caused by friendly fire, until they can see that their current dysfuctional squalor of existence is OF THEIR OWN DOING, they're not going anywhere but downhill while blaming others for their own monumental failure as a society.
The Gaza Strip already looks like Mogadishu because they keep blowing THEMSELVES up. Who's doing a holocaust, again?
If a bunch of Jordanian, Syrian and Lebanese refugees want to ever create a nation called "Palestine", (because one never existed!), they need to clean up their own act first. Right now, most of the entire world sees them as violently squabbling dysfunctional post-civilization refugees overseen by vicious terrorists who have no problem blowing up civilians, women and children, instead of attacking military targets.
And that's just a fact.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 05:21:16 AM
My point was that plenty non-Muslim leftists buy into this utterly inane crap.
Hell, I have met a *former FATAH militant* who was more reasonable than these people, and he *was* a Palestinian.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 12, 2008, 05:27:23 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 05:45:00 AM
acolytes to saint pancake
What does that mean? An English expression clearly unfamiliar to me.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 12, 2008, 05:56:47 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 05:57:51 AM
its reference to the girl from the us who decided to examine the underside of the armored buldozer
Ha!
Now that brightened my day.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 12, 2008, 05:59:56 AM
Post by: El Tejon on March 12, 2008, 06:00:30 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 06:06:46 AM
Last I was in Europe, hating Israel and Jews was very chic, whether Germany, France or the UK.
"Anti-Semitism is Socailism for the stupid". - often attributed to Marx, and Europe is VERY socialist.
Post by: BryanP on March 12, 2008, 09:46:25 AM
Oh, that kind of "protester" usually isn't a Frenchman at all.
Of course not, it's not as if the French have a history of anti-semitism or anything.
Post by: charby on March 12, 2008, 09:58:04 AM
Anti-semitism (and thats what this is) has always been a disease of the Left more than the Right.
I totally agree and the left sure does a good job at pointing the finger at the right as the haters.
Post by: seeker_two on March 12, 2008, 10:27:52 AM
Post by: De Selby on March 12, 2008, 07:18:28 PM
The Palestinians should count their lucky stars.....if it wasn't for Israel's cultural memory of and revulsion for the Holocaust, they would have (justifiably, I might add) found their own "Final Solution" for the Palestinian problem.....
Wow.
Looks the Palestinian militants aren't the only ones who believe genocide is the righteous answer.
Israel used to be one of the more radically socialist countries in the world.
if you ask me, the people who were saying this:
Quote
Some far left activists held a demonstration at the museum where they dubbed Peres and Israel "criminal," called for Israel "to be erased," and said "the resistance in Gaza is legitimate."
About Shimon Peres are the mirror image of the people who say that all the Palestinians should just be killed.
I know it's against the grain of un-pcness to say this these days, but I think it's clear that there is a moral equivalence between the two positions-"destroy Israel, it's bad!" is exactly the same kind of morally repugnant sentiment as "destroy the Palestinians! they deserve it!"
Post by: Manedwolf on March 12, 2008, 08:37:56 PM
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
Post by: De Selby on March 12, 2008, 08:42:48 PM
I think Israel has shown admirable restraint, myself.
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
That isn't what happened with the land, and Israel does indeed hammer the Palestinians-check out the comparative deaths if you don't agree. Whatever that country is, it is not one of "admirable restraint" against Palestinians. For every Israali civilian dead, about 10 Palestinian civilians bite the dust at the business end of an Israeli weapon. That's not restrained.
The Palestinians are not refugees from somewhere else-they were all born there and live there too. The answer to the question "what is the homeland of the palestinians?" is: right there between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. I believe that's why most of the Israeli public has traditionally supported the two state solution; they realize that those are people with homes too. But that may be changing-obviously Micro could better answer that than any of us.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 12, 2008, 08:53:12 PM
I think Israel has shown admirable restraint, myself.
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
That isn't what happened with the land, and Israel does indeed hammer the Palestinians-check out the comparative deaths if you don't agree. Whatever that country is, it is not one of "admirable restraint" against Palestinians. For every Israali civilian dead, about 10 Palestinian civilians bite the dust at the business end of an Israeli weapon. That's not restrained.
The Palestinians are not refugees from somewhere else-they were all born there and live there too. The answer to the question "what is the homeland of the palestinians?" is: right there between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. I believe that's why most of the Israeli public has traditionally supported the two state solution; they realize that those are people with homes too. But that may be changing-obviously Micro could better answer that than any of us.
Most of the Palis are killed by being used as human shields by their own Hamas "fighters". These courageous warriors will hide behind families and children while shooting at Israelis. Or haven't you managed to get that fact through your skull yet?
And there is no Palestine. There never was.
Post by: De Selby on March 12, 2008, 08:57:01 PM
I think Israel has shown admirable restraint, myself.
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
If a group of Mexican, Venezuelan, Columbian and Honduran refugees took over a strip of land on the US/Mexico border, said it was "Aztlan" or whatever, and started pinging rockets into San Diego, how long do you think that'd last before an overwhelming military response?
Yet this is just what Israel endures night and day, no matter what they do, no matter what concessions they make, no matter what peace process they try. Quassam rockets from rooftops, day after night after day after night...
That isn't what happened with the land, and Israel does indeed hammer the Palestinians-check out the comparative deaths if you don't agree. Whatever that country is, it is not one of "admirable restraint" against Palestinians. For every Israali civilian dead, about 10 Palestinian civilians bite the dust at the business end of an Israeli weapon. That's not restrained.
The Palestinians are not refugees from somewhere else-they were all born there and live there too. The answer to the question "what is the homeland of the palestinians?" is: right there between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. I believe that's why most of the Israeli public has traditionally supported the two state solution; they realize that those are people with homes too. But that may be changing-obviously Micro could better answer that than any of us.
Most of the Palis are killed by being used as human shields by their own Hamas "fighters". These courageous warriors will hide behind families and children while shooting at Israelis. Or haven't you managed to get that fact through your skull yet?
And there is no Palestine. There never was.
Sorry, but the facts on the ground do not support your preconceived notions about that conflict. It is an ugly battle between two people who are both fighting for their homes. It is a fact-both of the parties there are sitting in the same homes they were born in. It does not matter if you don't believe there ever was a Palestine; that fact has nothing to do with the very real fact that the Palestinians live there and always have lived there. It is their home and they have a right to their home just like anyone else.
People who want to make peace will have to recognize that both Jews and Arabs have rights. Pretending that Palestinians do not exist, or that they only die when throwing themselves voluntarily in front of the guns, is simply a thin facade for the belief that they have no rights whatsoever.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 12, 2008, 08:59:03 PM
Whatever.
Post by: De Selby on March 12, 2008, 09:05:01 PM
blah blah blah disbelieve blah blah.
Whatever.
Whatever.
Yep-don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant about Palestinians.
You won't let an Israeli convince you that the military complex is harmful there and that it is oppressive; neither will you let anyone else convince you that you are wrong about Palestinians. I don't believe that facts are the basis of your opinion on this subject.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 09:41:48 PM
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I believe that's why most of the Israeli public has traditionally supported the two state solution; they realize that those are people with homes too. But that may be changing-obviously Micro could better answer that than any of us.
Every single important political party in Israel supports some form of a two-state solution - Labor, Likud, Kadima, Israel Beitenu. It's utterly ridiculous to think Israel can conquer or maintain control of the Territories for a long term, or that such a thing would be somehow desirable for Israel.
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Whatever that country is, it is not one of "admirable restraint" against Palestinians.
Here I will have to agree with Manedwolf. I was in the Army (though not in a combat capacity), and I think the Army does take steps, again and again, to assure the safety of Palestinian civilians as much as possible. But that said, the realities of urban warfare are such that you will never eliminate civilian casualties altogether when you have two sides going at it with tanks and grenades and rockets and whatnot, and sometimes the Army DOES unduly abuse the Palestinians, and I have stories of that too that I could tell.
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And there is no Palestine. There never was.
Uttely irrelevant. What you have here is an ethnically separate population that was ALWAYS there, that talks a different language from us and has a different culture. There's no reason Israel should control their territory, nor does it benefit from it.
That said, the Hamas are a band of smacktards, who are out to do nothing else but fight their Holy Jihad, no matter what it does to the very people they're claiming to help.
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People who want to make peace will have to recognize that both Jews and Arabs have rights.
And that's precisely correct.
Both the nutjobs who think we need to carpet-bomb Gaza, and the left-wing nutjobs who whine that ISrael should not exist - and I know such nutjobs ON MY CAMPUS - are harmful to the peace process.
Only by realising the people on the other side of the concrete fence have legitimate concerns will we resolve this problem.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 12, 2008, 09:59:42 PM
Both the nutjobs who think we need to carpet-bomb Gaza, and the left-wing nutjobs who whine that ISrael should not exist - and I know such nutjobs ON MY CAMPUS - are harmful to the peace process.
Only by realising the people on the other side of the concrete fence have legitimate concerns will we resolve this problem.
Only by realising the people on the other side of the concrete fence have legitimate concerns will we resolve this problem.
But problem right now:
Israel: (does nothing to provoke)
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Israel: (does nothing)
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Israel: (does nothing)
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Israel: sends a few troops and tanks in to knock out some of the damn rockets
Gaza: BAWWW! Israel is mean!
Gaza: fires rocket into Israel
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 12, 2008, 11:35:09 PM
Post by: seeker_two on March 13, 2008, 01:21:11 AM
Even the US did a lot worse to the Indians/Native Americans for a lot less....
Post by: The Rabbi on March 13, 2008, 03:05:44 AM
blah blah blah disbelieve blah blah.
Whatever.
Whatever.
Yep- I don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant about Palestinians.
You won't let an Israeli convince you that the military complex is harmful there and that it is oppressive; neither will you let anyone else convince you that you are wrong about Palestinians. I don't believe that facts are the basis of your opinion on this subject.
Fixed for ya.
The Palestinians have been offered every chance and have blown it because of their indoctgrinted hatrd of Israel. Period.
Post by: johnster999 on March 15, 2008, 09:26:19 PM
Post by: De Selby on March 15, 2008, 09:33:49 PM
Arguments of moral equivalence between the Israelis and Palestinians are nonsensical. If the Palestinian leadership had the military power of the Israelis they would use it to drive all the Israelis into the sea. No peace process. No Deals. No Mercy. They've stated as much themselves, repeatedly.
So have many of the Israelis-but regardless of which side has the power, genocide is (thank God) not an option in this world.
That holds true both for the Kahanist nuts who once held some serious way in Israel and for the anti-semite nuts who hold sway in Palestine.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 15, 2008, 11:21:17 PM
Post by: De Selby on March 15, 2008, 11:28:37 PM
Kahanist nuts never, to my knowledge, held serious sway in Israel, and does not hold such sway today outside Federman and his utterly insane cronies.
I was going off of articles to this effect: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320266,00.html
That could clearly be distorted, and there's no question that it is a minority...but as far as the information available in english goes, it looks like a significant and dangerous minority.
Edit:
I don't want to imply that Yigal Amir and his ilk actually do hold sway with all Israelis now; just that they did have some significant support, and that there are those on the Israeli side of this confict who call for "ethnic cleansing" (a la Baruch Goldstein) and that they are just as wrong as the psycho Palestinians who call for "pushing the Jews into the sea." They are both deeply immoral and wrong in their goals.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 15, 2008, 11:39:14 PM
Note of course, a lot of people support pardon for Yigal Amir who don't also support 'killing all the Arabs', in fact, I'm not sure HE supports that.
There are issues surrounding this guy having nothing to do with the original assassination, or Arabs, or Israeli foreign policy at all.
Quote
I don't want to imply that Yigal Amir and his ilk actually do hold sway with all Israelis now; just that they did have some significant support, and that there are those on the Israeli side of this confict who call for "ethnic cleansing" (a la Baruch Goldstein) and that they are just as wrong as the psycho Palestinians who call for "pushing the Jews into the sea." They are both deeply immoral and wrong in their goals.
Absolutely.
It amazes me that this sort of view seems to be more common abroad than it is here.
Post by: De Selby on March 15, 2008, 11:57:27 PM
Absolutely.
It amazes me that this sort of view seems to be more common abroad than it is here.
That is a good point-and a good reason for all countries to be leery of foreign "aid." Sometimes the foreigners support crazy agendas for their own purposes, not for the good of the recepient of "aid."
I wish we could create a special island just for the crazies who want to duke it out no matter the cost-they can have their place, and leave the rest of us alone. Too bad they're never happy unless they draw other people into the craziness...
Post by: Manedwolf on March 16, 2008, 06:29:52 AM
Arguments of moral equivalence between the Israelis and Palestinians are nonsensical. If the Palestinian leadership had the military power of the Israelis they would use it to drive all the Israelis into the sea. No peace process. No Deals. No Mercy. They've stated as much themselves, repeatedly.
So have many of the Israelis-but regardless of which side has the power, genocide is (thank God) not an option in this world.
That holds true both for the Kahanist nuts who once held some serious way in Israel and for the anti-semite nuts who hold sway in Palestine.
Oh, if Hamas had a nuclear weapon, Tel Aviv would be a white flash. And don't even try to pretend otherwise.
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 06:44:13 AM
Yes, they'd use a nuclear weapon, in close proximity to themselves and their people, an act that would immediately call down the wrath of the world on them, resulting in their hasty destruction.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 16, 2008, 07:16:27 AM
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Oh, if Hamas had a nuclear weapon, Tel Aviv would be a white flash. And don't even try to pretend otherwise.
And Hamas doesn't have a nuclear weapon.
Hell, they don't even have the support of the majority of the Palestinians in Gaza for their rocket attacks.
Hamas =/= Palestinians.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 07:49:39 AM
He doesn't need to 'pretend otherwise,' because that's patently absurd.
Yes, they'd use a nuclear weapon, in close proximity to themselves and their people, an act that would immediately call down the wrath of the world on them, resulting in their hasty destruction.
Or would earn them the undying love and respect of the region's Israel-haters.Yes, they'd use a nuclear weapon, in close proximity to themselves and their people, an act that would immediately call down the wrath of the world on them, resulting in their hasty destruction.
They've already been labeled as a terrorist org by the US and most of Europe. What else is anyone going to do to them?
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 07:54:03 AM
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Or would earn them the undying love and respect of the region's Israel-haters.
Who, unfortunately for them, don't control any of the local powers.You think Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are going to give up their good standing with the US and EU to aid a minor party that's just nuked a civilian population center? Really?
Iran wouldn't even step in on their behalf in the event of an act of destruction of that magnitude.
Even terrorists are, by and large, rational actors. They aren't going to ensure their own immediate and wholesale destruction to strike one blow.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 08:09:57 AM
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Or would earn them the undying love and respect of the region's Israel-haters.
Who, unfortunately for them, don't control any of the local powers.You think Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are going to give up their good standing with the US and EU to aid a minor party that's just nuked a civilian population center? Really?
Iran wouldn't even step in on their behalf in the event of an act of destruction of that magnitude.
Even terrorists are, by and large, rational actors. They aren't going to ensure their own immediate and wholesale destruction to strike one blow.
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 10:37:59 AM
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What makes you think they aren't already aiding them?
Try to stay on topic.The issue is after a nuclear attack on an Israeli population center (which is, of course, laughable given the confines - but we're going to treat manedwolf's daydreams as potential reality), and the ensuing response from
What they're "already" doing is irrelevant. Unless you're privy to an as-yet-unknown nuclear attack.
Quote
As for destruction of that magnitude, do you honestly think that the Muslims who hate Israel think there is some optimum level of Jewish destruction? No, the more the better.
This is simply incoherent.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 10:44:09 AM
Muslim radicals are aiding Hamas. This is obvious. Hamas has the sworn purpose of annhilating Israel off the map. This is well established. If they were to succeed in detonating a nuclear bomb of any size and yield that did that, they would be further to their purpose, which is supported by their current backers.
I don't see why any of this should engender controversy.
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 10:59:33 AM
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What they are already doing is a good indicator of how they will treat any future action.
No, it's not.Nothing the Palestinians have ever done is even vaguely similar to a nuclear attack killing hundreds of thousands of people.
Providing aid to the Gaza government today has no relation to the fallout from such an act.
(Which is, of course, why the scenario of a nuclear attack is such a fantastic piece of mental gymnastics.)
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Muslim radicals are aiding Hamas.
Now you're switching up again - first it was the governments of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia - now you're arguing "Muslim radicals." Obviously Jordan and Egypt aren't governed by radicals, and Saudi Arabia is confined by its relationship with the US.You have a heckuva time sticking to one line of reasoning, don't you?
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Muslim radicals are aiding Hamas. This is obvious. Hamas has the sworn purpose of annhilating Israel off the map.
Ah, but you're making a leap in logic there - that anyone who offers support to the Gaza government is "supporting the annihilation of Israel." There's no reason to make that leap.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 11:06:43 AM
Those who support Hamas are actually pro-Israel and are just doing it to hedge their bets. Yeah.
Your points are even less coherent and logical than usual.
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 11:09:32 AM
Your idea of coherence and logic is... interesting.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 11:15:16 AM
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 11:21:02 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 12:19:39 PM
Quote
Goals of the HAMAS:
------------------
'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian
movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is
Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of
Palestine.' (Article 6)
On the Destruction of Israel:
-----------------------------
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
------------------
'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian
movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is
Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of
Palestine.' (Article 6)
On the Destruction of Israel:
-----------------------------
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
Fatah:
Quote
Article (9) Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation.
Hezbollah:
Quote
It was not by sheer coincidence that Hezbollah turned into a struggle movement against the Israeli occupation. because Hezbollahs ideological ideals sees no legitimacy for the existence of Israel. [edited 1st June02] The conflict becomes one of legitimacy that is based on religious ideals. The seed of resistance is deep in the ideological beliefs of Hezbollah, a belief that found its way for statement against the Zionist occupation of Lebanon. That is why we also find the slogan of the liberation of Jerusalem rooted deeply in the ideals of Hezbollah.
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 12:26:24 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 02:53:06 PM
With more than a billion Muslims in the world, every last one subscribing to the beliefs of those three organizations, it's hard to believe that the Palestinians struggle so much with the basic maintenance of their state.
Nice strawman there, chief. No one said every Muslim believes that. Not that will matter to you.
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 02:58:02 PM
Which, you know, tells me that the whole "Palestinians would like, totally, nuke this place ten miles away, and then, like enjoy the support of the local Islamic states in the ensuing conflict" is a load of dung. But hopefully you knew that to start with and are just playing a part.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 16, 2008, 03:03:25 PM
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 03:20:37 PM
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If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.
I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.
Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.
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If you think Hamas isnt getting support from radical elements in the Islamic world (including gov'ts) then you havent been paying attention.
I've never suggested that they're not (though, again, you're trying to blur the line between Islamic states and 'radical elements'). We cleared that up: we're not talking about treatment today, we're talking about treatment in the aftermath of a nuclear attack on Israel.Quote
And if you think those elements would cringe at a nuked Israel with millions of casualties, then you are simply an apologist.
No local state would support the attackers (or rejoice at their actions) - whether you wish to believe that to be an act of simple humanity or an act of self-preservation, doesn't matter. In a world dominated militarily by the US, and economically by the US and China (which would not appreciate such a destabilizing war) no one could afford to support such an act.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 16, 2008, 03:22:57 PM
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If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.
I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.
Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.
And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.
What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?
Post by: wooderson on March 16, 2008, 03:40:19 PM
You think maybe they treat suicide bombers and other lost causes as pawns, preying on them to advance their own causes while remaining 'behind the lines'?
You think maybe they're like every other political and military leadership group in human history?
Nah...
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2008, 05:15:24 PM
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If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.
I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.
Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.
And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.
What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?
So how do you explain the existence of Christian suicide bombers in this conflict?
Did they just not notice that their religion doesn't have this teaching, and got swept up in the moment?
How about the communists who participate in suicide attacks? Is there some new form of Marxism with an afterlife?
Sorry, your theory does not fit the facts. This conflict is not about religious beliefs, and never has been.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 16, 2008, 07:43:17 PM
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If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.
I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.
Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.
And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.
What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?
So how do you explain the existence of Christian suicide bombers in this conflict?
Did they just not notice that their religion doesn't have this teaching, and got swept up in the moment?
How about the communists who participate in suicide attacks? Is there some new form of Marxism with an afterlife?
Sorry, your theory does not fit the facts. This conflict is not about religious beliefs, and never has been.
Oh, there you go again on the asinine "christian suicide bombers" nonsense that has been shot down over and over and over.
Keep guzzling that kool-aid, have a nice life.
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2008, 08:24:28 PM
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If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.
I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.
Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.
And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.
What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?
So how do you explain the existence of Christian suicide bombers in this conflict?
Did they just not notice that their religion doesn't have this teaching, and got swept up in the moment?
How about the communists who participate in suicide attacks? Is there some new form of Marxism with an afterlife?
Sorry, your theory does not fit the facts. This conflict is not about religious beliefs, and never has been.
Oh, there you go again on the asinine "christian suicide bombers" nonsense that has been shot down over and over and over.
Keep guzzling that kool-aid, have a nice life.
Uh, shot down? Are you serious? Are you denying that there are Christian Palestinian suicide bombers?
This looks to me like a cop-out; you are ignoring the facts because they don't fit your theory. If you don't agree with the facts, I'd be happy to hear why, but it's hard to imagine anyone seriously disputing that there are in fact christian suicide bombers who targeted Israel in this very conflict. You can verify that for yourself in any source that profiles the perps.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 16, 2008, 11:20:33 PM
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In the Muslim world (the one that is most involved anyway) there is only one position: destruction of the state. Everything else is window dressing.
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Nice strawman there, chief. No one said every Muslim believes that.
So which one of those is it, Rabbi?
BTW, perhaps we should count those 1 billion Muslims.
162.5 million Muslims live in Pakistan, which is, at least officially, a friend of the United States, and receives US aid. They provide more troops to UN peacekeeping efforts than any other nation in the world (10,000 troops as of 2007) and fought alongside with America in Gulf War I.
234.5 million Muslims live in Indonesia. The government works with America to fight Al-Quaeda, and numerous Indonesian muslims have been targets of AQ attacks because of this.
6 million Muslims live in Jordan. They are actually harder on Hamas supporters than Israel is recently, they prohibited the relatives of the yeshiva shooter to grieve for him in public, which Israel did not do. To quote Wikipedia, "Jordan has consistently followed a pro-Western foreign policy and traditionally has had close relations with the United States and the United Kingdom." Jordanian and Israeli soldiers cross-train on some exercises.
70 million Muslims live in Turkey. Turkey is all but officially allied to Israel.
Egypt is ambiguous their media is highly anti-semitic, but they are also anti-Hamas, and so far 34+ Egyptian police have been shot or otherwise injured by Hamas. Egypt is also a recipient of US aid.
53 million Muslims further live in Europe. I hope everybody agrees Europe in general is not out to destroy Israel (though again, the relation is sometimes ambiguous).
151 million Muslims live in India. To my knowledge, never has a major Indian politician called for violence against Israel.
1.1 million Muslims hold Israeli citizenship.
That brings us to 824 million Muslims.
In the meanwhile, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Lybia the anti-Israeli nations have a population of 100.5 million between them. If you add Palestine to this (which is a doubtful thing), that brings us to about 104 million Muslims.
So, the majority of Muslims clearly live in countries that are neither anti-Western, nor anti-American, nor anti-Israeli. There are more Muslims in countries that are friends of the United States and Israel than otherwise.
How does this jive with your claim that "in the Muslim world, there is only one position"?
Post by: Tecumseh on March 20, 2008, 08:24:23 AM
Anti-semitism (and thats what this is) has always been a disease of the Left more than the Right.
No it is not. That is like saying because you don't like Jesse Jackson you are a racist.Israel should not be on the map because it is not their land. I am not an anti-Semite but an anti-Israel state as the Israeli people have been abused but now abuse others.
Because I believe this I am anti-Semite?
Post by: Strings on March 20, 2008, 06:45:26 PM
Post by: Laurent du Var on March 22, 2008, 11:20:38 AM
Total population: 3.1 million
Muslim population: 2.2 million (70%)
AUSTRIA
Total population: 8.2 million
Muslim population: 339,000 (4.1%)
BELGIUM
Total population: 10.3 million
Muslim population: 0.4 million (4%)
BOSNIA-HERCEGOVINA
Total population: 3.8 million
Muslim population: 1.5 million (40%)
DENMARK
Total population: 5.4 million
Muslim population: 270,000 (5%)
FRANCE
Total population: 62.3 million
Muslim population: Five to six million (8-9.6%)
GERMANY
Total population: 82.5 million
Muslim population: 3 million (3.6%)
ITALY
Total population: 58.4 million
Muslim population: 825,000 (1.4%)
MACEDONIA
Total population: 2.1 million
Muslim population: 630,000 (30%)
NETHERLANDS
Total population: 16.3 million
Muslim population: 945,000 or 5.8%
SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO (WITH KOSOVO)
Total population: 10.8 million (including Kosovo); 8.1 million (excluding Kosovo)
Muslim population: Serbia and Montenegro - 405,000 (5%); Kosovo - about 1.8 million (90%)
SPAIN
Total population: 43.1 million
Muslim population: 1 million (2.3%)
SWEDEN
Total population: 9 million
Muslim population: 300,000 (3%)
SWITZERLAND
Total population: 7.4 million
Muslim population: 310,800 (4.2%)
TURKEY (Has been counted here but is not in Europe)
Total population: 68.7 million
Muslim population: 68 million (99%)
UNITED KINGDOM
Total population: 58.8 million
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)
If I have counted right, roughly, there are 21 519 000 Muslims
in Europe, of which 2 thirds are second generation, I don't expect them to be any trouble at all.
The first generation is still busy to work their backs off doing jobs Europeans don't want anymore, the 1st part of the second generation is working hard to make it the "European" way and the last half is sucking on the public tit
which doesn't make them winners even amongst them.
For the European muslims like albanians, macedonians and the people from montenegro/kosovo, well recent history was a bitch for them.
I've had muslims, turks mostly, around me for most of my life, they are good people for the bigger part and life is no fun for them. Not in this life anyway.
They are not looking to take over the world to make it look like Taliban Afghanistan, they want to --- damned if I knew....
Post by: wooderson on March 22, 2008, 12:50:22 PM
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Hell, it wasn't really ANYBODY'S land until Israel was formed. You're using that as a point for what, exactly?
Hahahahahaha.Yep, no one living there. No one at all. A completely un-populated spot until 1948.
Post by: De Selby on March 22, 2008, 12:59:41 PM
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Hell, it wasn't really ANYBODY'S land until Israel was formed. You're using that as a point for what, exactly?
Hahahahahaha.Yep, no one living there. No one at all. A completely un-populated spot until 1948.
You laugh, but some people actually taket his view seriously. See "From Time Immemorial", and the sputtering in editorials that followed when it was debunked (as it should have been from the obvious fact that there were, oh, uh, cities there at that time...)
Post by: taurusowner on March 27, 2008, 10:57:17 PM
A lot of nations have different kinds of people living there. But when you are in one of those countries, you are expected to follow their laws and way of doing things. It doesn't really matter how the Palestinians identify themselves. They live in Israel, and need to follow Israeli laws. Or get out and go somewhere else. Simply being different doesn't earn you your own nation.
Bottom line: There are tons of different nations, find one you like, but it's their place, their rules. If you visit, follow the laws. And if you actually intend on moving there, become part of that nation. If I visit Russia, I will follow Russian law. If I move to Russia, I need to learn Russian, learn to read Cyrillic, learn to love my new nation. If America is still where my heart lies, than my body needs to be there too. That goes for everyone. It seems a lot of people currently in this nation love Mexico more than America. IMO they have 2 choices. Learn to love America more, or go back to where their heart remains.
I'm sorry the self described Palestinians are angry. But the Jews and Israel have had a much harder time through history than them. I think Israel deserves whatever small bit of land they have. They don't owe anyone else #### and shouldn't give up anything.
Post by: De Selby on March 28, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
A group cannot simply redefine themselves as a new nation and the carve out some land for themselves. For instance, much of the Appalachian area of America has it's own culture and arguably it's own language. But they can't start calling themselves Appalachians and then demand the US give them sovereign land.
Uh yeah...but they were living there at the time. They were asking not to be expelled from their homes, not for someone else to "give them" some piece of land.
Where do you think the Palestinians lived before today?
Post by: taurusowner on April 01, 2008, 09:54:46 PM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on April 02, 2008, 04:27:30 AM
Post by: De Selby on April 02, 2008, 05:14:32 PM
In the previous Muslim nations that had the land before Israel. AFAIK, those nations are still around. It's about time they welcome their long lost brethren home. Problem solved.
There are no such nations-the only thing that existed at that time were colonies or very recent colonies, borders and governments created by Britain or France.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on April 02, 2008, 05:20:36 PM
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Israel should not be on the map because it is not their land.
Uh, the Jews can trace some 4000 years of their history to that land, which is a helluva lot longer than any other people & country I can think of.
Post by: taurusowner on April 02, 2008, 06:24:19 PM
America right now is choosing not to retain it's Southern border, and thus is losing that land to another nation and people. Israel is simply choosing to keep the land they won and fought for.
Post by: De Selby on April 02, 2008, 06:35:00 PM
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The European countries took it over and then it was theirs. The modern state of Israel might have been created by the will of the Brits and Allies after WWII, but right after it was created, they fought wars with the surrounding Muslim nations over it. Israel won. End of story. Until they fight another real war, and actually take the land back, the losers are simply the losers. Too bad for them.
Well, there's one problem with this theory-they still live there. So what now? Whole races of people have no rights because "they lost the war"? That sounds suspiciously old fashioned....and from the bad old days, not the good old days.
No state has the right to deny people basic human rights or to treat them as unequal on the basis of their race. If you accept that principle, this whole schtick about how Israelis fought and won is meaningless, because the land is nearly 50 percent populated by Arabs.
And of course, continuing acts of war on the part of Arabs to retake land are not going to be met (by your or anyone else reasonable) with glee or indifference. I'm quite certain that when Hizbullah was shelling northern Israel, you didn't shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well-if they win, that's the way the cookie crumbles."
Post by: taurusowner on April 02, 2008, 07:04:22 PM
If Hezbollah truly retook that land and conquered Israel, yeah, that would be the way the cookie crumbles. They're free to try, and try they do. But Israel is free to bomb the #### out of them in the process.
Post by: De Selby on April 02, 2008, 08:21:55 PM
The Palestinians are not content to simply become citizens, stop fighting, and just live life.
Well, there is a sense in which this is not correct-they are more than happy to be given full Israeli citizenship rights. Because that would mean they could simply vote to make the country whatever they wanted, being half the population. That fact isn't lost on either the Palestinians or the Israelis, and is the reason why some Arabs got citizenship in Israel but most did not. If every Arab were offered citizenship, it wouldn't be called Israel; they would vote to rename it.
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If Hezbollah truly retook that land and conquered Israel, yeah, that would be the way the cookie crumbles. They're free to try, and try they do. But Israel is free to bomb the #### out of them in the process.
I see-so if the Arab states ever become strong enough to wipe out Israel, you're all for it...including when they "bomb the xxxxxx out of them in the process"?
Sorry, I can't see how that is moral. From my side, it looks like constant violence designed to toss people out of their homes is wrong, no matter who is the target, Arab or Israeli.
Post by: taurusowner on April 02, 2008, 09:31:04 PM
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I see-so if the Arab states ever become strong enough to wipe out Israel, you're all for it...including when they "bomb the xxxxxx out of them in the process"?
We are Israel's allies though. Those Arab nations are/would be our enemies. That's how the world works. If they really think that they can build enough strength to take out Israels and it's allies, they're welcome to try.
You seem to be wanting some world where nothing is resolved through fighting. That's a fine wish, but it will never happen. Nations are defined through war. That's how it's always been and always will be. If the Palestinians keep making war against Israel, I fully support Israel making war back. And I'm rooting for Israel. The Jews have taken enough crap from the rest of the world. It's time they start dishing it out one round at a time.
those countries don't want/care about the palestinians either. they definitly don't want them in their countries. they are similar to the irish in europe as characterized by the guy in the movie "the commitments" where he said the irish are the n#$$&@# of europe. the other arab countries are content with the palestinians being right where they are and give em enough cash to keep em there. as opposed to moving em
cassandrasdaddy makes a good point. Why is it they tiny @$$ state of Israel has to give up what land it has when there are other Muslim nations all around it that could easily take in the Palestinians? Why does no one make a big deal about them refusing to take in their own people? Why is all the insistence that Israel give up the meager land and property it has? You want a peaceful solution? Lobby for the surrounding nations to stop funding terrorism and start building homes in their own land for the Palestinian refugees.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on April 03, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
Post by: De Selby on April 03, 2008, 04:50:47 PM
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If the Palestinians keep making war against Israel, I fully support Israel making war back. And I'm rooting for Israel. The Jews have taken enough crap from the rest of the world. It's time they start dishing it out one round at a time.
In other words, this is about your preference for one race of people over another, not some abstract principle that might makes right.
This isn't a world where fighting solves nothing-but there are situations where fighting makes things worse, and this is one of them, because both peoples live in the same place.
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Why does no one make a big deal about them refusing to take in their own people? Why is all the insistence that Israel give up the meager land and property it has? You want a peaceful solution? Lobby for the surrounding nations to stop funding terrorism and start building homes in their own land for the Palestinian refugees.
Did you stop to consider that the Palestinians might actually not want to be kicked out of their homes?
This is a strange recommendation. One piece of land is not equivalent to another-I seriously doubt that you can find any people on the planet who will be happy to have you tear down their homes to build your own, as long as you offer them a home somewhere else.
The surrounding nations, in any case, have taken in millions of Palestinians-Palestinians who don't want to be there anymore than the host nations want them. And there's no real prospect of them ever going to their homes again.
But that's all irrelevant to the point, which is that 50 percent of the population that is currently under the control of Israel is not Israeli. How do you propose dealing with that?
Post by: roo_ster on April 04, 2008, 06:14:15 AM
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If the Palestinians keep making war against Israel, I fully support Israel making war back. And I'm rooting for Israel. The Jews have taken enough crap from the rest of the world. It's time they start dishing it out one round at a time.
In other words, this is about your preference for one race of people over another, not some abstract principle that might makes right.
In my case, my preference has nothing to do with race. It is about civilization versus Dark Age savagery.
Post by: MechAg94 on April 04, 2008, 07:22:09 AM
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This isn't a world where fighting solves nothing-but there are situations where fighting makes things worse, and this is one of them, because both peoples live in the same place.
Tell that to the Palestinians. To insist that one side do that yet not insist the other side do it also is foolishness. Also, each side should enforce it with their own. The Palestinians have shown an unwillingness to do this. I think the Palestinians are going to have to give up their hatred of Jews if there is ever going to be peace over there.