Post by: Werewolf on March 13, 2008, 06:01:53 AM
Is it just the legacy of a culture of racism.
Is it racist to say that a child of a white and black parent is black? Aren't they just as white? Why aren't they considered to be white?
Post by: Jamisjockey on March 13, 2008, 06:06:12 AM
If they were born in the US, they're not black. They're not white. They're American.
Post by: Brad Johnson on March 13, 2008, 07:00:11 AM
Brad
Post by: K Frame on March 13, 2008, 07:03:04 AM
Post by: Gewehr98 on March 13, 2008, 09:06:04 AM
Post by: Paddy on March 13, 2008, 09:07:48 AM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on March 13, 2008, 10:02:05 AM
The affirmative action bennies are better?
Ding ding! Winner!
Post by: BridgeWalker on March 13, 2008, 10:03:45 AM
Post by: Werewolf on March 13, 2008, 10:39:23 AM
Considered black/white by whom? For most things there's a mixed race/multi-racial box to check.
Uhhhhh...
The mainstream media?
Most Americans?
I spent a great deal of time in South America in the late 70's. They've got a word for every kind of mix possible. So if you're half white - half black then you're a mulato. Indian/Black something else. Indian/White is another. Asian/Black another and so on and so on. You're not black just because you've got some in ya like here in Uhhhmuricah.
Post by: wooderson on March 13, 2008, 10:45:01 AM
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...that a person with a black parent and a white parent is considered black?
What 'they're considered' depends entirely on where they are in relation to those around them.In a local culture where everyone is black, the half-black/half-white individual will be reacted to in one way.
In a national culture where whites remain predominant, the half-black/white individual will most likely identify with and be identified as the minority group.
This is also applicable to other cultures, ethnicities, etc. - cf. half-Japanese kids by American parents (white, black or other) and their treatment in Japan.
Post by: wooderson on March 13, 2008, 10:46:52 AM
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Its the legacy of a culture that thinks we have to "make up" for the legacy of raciism.
If they were born in the US, they're not black. They're not white. They're American.
Well, they are black, or they are white - it's kind of hard to not have a skin color.If they were born in the US, they're not black. They're not white. They're American.
If you mean ethnically - 'they're not African-American,' etc. - you're also wrong. Ever heard 'Irish-American'? 'Italian-American'? 'Greek-American'?
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on March 13, 2008, 10:47:47 AM
Post by: HankB on March 13, 2008, 11:25:05 AM
If you mean ethnically - 'they're not African-American,' etc. - you're also wrong. Ever heard 'Irish-American'? 'Italian-American'? 'Greek-American'?
Hyphenated-American is bull crap anyway.
And now let's hear from a former President, noted author, and war hero, a man who won the Nobel Peace Prize when it still meant something, a man immortalized on Mount Rushmore . . .
Quote from: Theodore Roosevelt
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts "native" before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. . . .
The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. . . . There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. . . .
For an American citizen to vote as a German-American, an Irish-American, or an English-American, is to be a traitor to American institutions; and those hyphenated Americans who terrorize American politicians by threats of the foreign vote are engaged in treason to the American Republic.
The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. . . . There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. . . .
For an American citizen to vote as a German-American, an Irish-American, or an English-American, is to be a traitor to American institutions; and those hyphenated Americans who terrorize American politicians by threats of the foreign vote are engaged in treason to the American Republic.
Post by: wooderson on March 13, 2008, 11:44:42 AM
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 13, 2008, 06:34:09 PM
Considered black/white by whom? For most things there's a mixed race/multi-racial box to check.
I can't recall ever seeing a box for "mixed" or "bi-racial." There also isn't a box for WASP, so on occasion I have been known to check "Other."
Post by: doczinn on March 13, 2008, 06:39:45 PM
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Legally, in most states, the mother's ethnicity determins the child's ethnicity.
Can someone tell me, coherently, just why in the hell we even have a legal ethnicity?
Post by: RevDisk on March 13, 2008, 06:50:43 PM
This is also applicable to other cultures, ethnicities, etc. - cf. half-Japanese kids by American parents (white, black or other) and their treatment in Japan.
That would be my cousins. My uncle (half german, half italian) married a local girl when he was working in Japan. Let's just say Japan is not kind or subtle about its feelings towards kids with mixed ethnicities. They've since moved back to the States and my cousins made it clear hell would freeze over before they'd ever go back. Heard plenty of stories of racism in Japan before, but hearing it from your little cousins makes it a bit more personal.
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Can someone tell me, coherently, just why in the hell we even have a legal ethnicity?
Census, identification purposes, statistics. When they call in my info for NICS check, they include hair color, height, eye color and ethnicity. Plenty of good reasons.
Post by: De Selby on March 13, 2008, 06:54:58 PM
Considered black/white by whom? For most things there's a mixed race/multi-racial box to check.
Uhhhhh...
The mainstream media?
Most Americans?
I spent a great deal of time in South America in the late 70's. They've got a word for every kind of mix possible. So if you're half white - half black then you're a mulato. Indian/Black something else. Indian/White is another. Asian/Black another and so on and so on. You're not black just because you've got some in ya like here in Uhhhmuricah.
That's because of the old Spanish slave code-your legal rights were defined by such things.
Post by: doczinn on March 13, 2008, 07:14:52 PM
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Census, identification purposes, statistics. When they call in my info for NICS check, they include hair color, height, eye color and ethnicity. Plenty of good reasons.
And can you tell me why the census needs to consider ethnicity? Or why identification need consider a legal definition of ethnicity rather than appearance? Or why the statistics of ethnicity should be important? I don't see any good reasons.
Post by: De Selby on March 13, 2008, 07:17:22 PM
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Census, identification purposes, statistics. When they call in my info for NICS check, they include hair color, height, eye color and ethnicity. Plenty of good reasons.
And can you tell me why the census needs to consider ethnicity? Or why identification need consider a legal definition of ethnicity rather than appearance? Or why the statistics of ethnicity should be important? I don't see any good reasons.It helps you track and identify areas of concern.
For example, if you have a region where 100 percent of convictions are of blacks, or 100 percent of blacks are convicts, there's probably something going on that's worth looking into...if you're interested in civil rights, anyway.
Post by: Tecumseh on March 13, 2008, 07:19:41 PM
Considered black/white by whom? For most things there's a mixed race/multi-racial box to check.
I can't recall ever seeing a box for "mixed" or "bi-racial." There also isn't a box for WASP, so on occasion I have been known to check "Other."
Irish is not a race but an ethnicity.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 13, 2008, 07:28:18 PM
its usually a polite racism but it is intense.
interestingly enough a black man would have higher status in japan than i do as a 1/2 japanese. they take the race mixing as a shameful thing. my neighbor grew up in the south and spent 10 years in japan. he came home and decided to go back since he was treate dbetter as a black man in japan that he was here. we used to chuckle about him being way more japanese than me.
Post by: RevDisk on March 13, 2008, 07:46:06 PM
your cousins spoke the truth!
its usually a polite racism but it is intense.
interestingly enough a black man would have higher status in japan than i do as a 1/2 japanese. they take the race mixing as a shameful thing. my neighbor grew up in the south and spent 10 years in japan. he came home and decided to go back since he was treate dbetter as a black man in japan that he was here. we used to chuckle about him being way more japanese than me.
its usually a polite racism but it is intense.
interestingly enough a black man would have higher status in japan than i do as a 1/2 japanese. they take the race mixing as a shameful thing. my neighbor grew up in the south and spent 10 years in japan. he came home and decided to go back since he was treate dbetter as a black man in japan that he was here. we used to chuckle about him being way more japanese than me.
The part that shocked me was how adults would treat 'half-breed' kids. There are some things you DO NOT say to a child. Any child, let alone a stranger's child.
Yea, buddy of mine was black and spent some time in Japan. Aside from people flat out staring and pointing, nothing that bad. One time an Asian gentleman asked him for directions. My buddy pointed to his skin and meantioned that he wasn't a local, he didn't know where anything was. The other gentleman explained he was Korean. He was asking my buddy to ask someone for directions. Sure enough. The gentleman asked my buddy the question, who relayed it to a local. The Japanese wouldn't even acknowledge the Korean's presense, pretending he wasn't there or talking.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 13, 2008, 07:52:18 PM
its a shame how folks can be to kids.
you should see what happens to the mixed kids in korea sometimes just abandoned on the streets to fend for themselves and subject to abuse that will make you grit your teeth
Post by: wooderson on March 13, 2008, 07:53:43 PM
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Irish is not a race but an ethnicity.
You've got that switched.
Post by: wooderson on March 13, 2008, 07:54:14 PM
Post by: doczinn on March 13, 2008, 08:40:09 PM
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It helps you track and identify areas of concern.
For example, if you have a region where 100 percent of convictions are of blacks, or 100 percent of blacks are convicts, there's probably something going on that's worth looking into...if you're interested in civil rights, anyway.
If you'd like to use a feasible example, I'll address that point.
For example, if you have a region where 100 percent of convictions are of blacks, or 100 percent of blacks are convicts, there's probably something going on that's worth looking into...if you're interested in civil rights, anyway.
Post by: De Selby on March 13, 2008, 08:42:41 PM
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It helps you track and identify areas of concern.
For example, if you have a region where 100 percent of convictions are of blacks, or 100 percent of blacks are convicts, there's probably something going on that's worth looking into...if you're interested in civil rights, anyway.
If you'd like to use a feasible example, I'll address that point. For example, if you have a region where 100 percent of convictions are of blacks, or 100 percent of blacks are convicts, there's probably something going on that's worth looking into...if you're interested in civil rights, anyway.
Sure.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/17/news/opinion/courtwatch/main559138.shtml
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Instead, as the Washington Post reported, in eight lightning-quick trials, juries with virtually no black members handed down blisteringly tough sentences -- even though the sweeps turned up no drugs, weapons, paraphernalia or other signs of drug dealing. When the rest of the defendants saw that -- Jim Crow justice 50 years after it was supposed to have been outlawed -- they quickly pleaded guilty themselves in order to give themselves at least a shot at a lighter sentence. And then they languished in jail, knowing they were innocent of those charges, until sufficient legal momentum and good old-fashioned outrage did something about it.
Racism still happens in America. There needs to be a good way for the rest of us to know about it, so we can respond accordingly. Statistics don't prove that racism is the cause of nearly every black person in a small town being jailed, but they certainly are good enough to tell us where further attention might be directed.
Post by: LadySmith on March 13, 2008, 10:08:30 PM
...that a person with a black parent and a white parent is considered black?
Is it just the legacy of a culture of racism.
Is it racist to say that a child of a white and black parent is black? Aren't they just as white? Why aren't they considered to be white?
Is it just the legacy of a culture of racism.
Is it racist to say that a child of a white and black parent is black? Aren't they just as white? Why aren't they considered to be white?
It was a legacy of a culture of racism. By law and cultural acceptance, if you were mixed, you were Black. Look up U.S. miscegenation laws that continued to be enforced into the mid-1900s. If you had a Black ancestor going back three generations, you were Black. If you had 1/64th Black blood in your veins, you were Black.
I guess you have to know exactly which box to check on those 4473s.
Post by: doczinn on March 14, 2008, 04:51:42 AM
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Racism still happens in America.
Hmmm... That's not the message I get from the actual article. The cop perjured himself, and the jury believed him. And where do you get "nearly every" out of that article?I eagerly await a real example in which a legal definition of ethnicity or race has helped anything.
Post by: De Selby on March 14, 2008, 10:01:08 PM
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Racism still happens in America.
Hmmm... That's not the message I get from the actual article. The cop perjured himself, and the jury believed him. And where do you get "nearly every" out of that article?I eagerly await a real example in which a legal definition of ethnicity or race has helped anything.
Wait, so you think it was just coincidence that all white juries convicted an all black cadre of suspects, or what?
Sometimes the urge to deny racism in the name of "ignoring pc" makes the denial as ridiculous as anything "PC"
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 04, 2008, 07:58:31 AM
From my meager knowledge of Japanese culture, it seems to me they have traditionally viewed themselves as a cut above all other groups. I wonder if this is why terms like "Jap" and "Nip" have come to be regarded as racial slurs. So far as I can see, they are merely shortenings of "Japanese" or "Niponese." I never understood why anyone took offense at these words. Then I began to wonder if it was not merely that the Japanese felt their race was not to be referred to so informally, their being such superior people and everything.
Or am I being more clueless than usual?
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on April 04, 2008, 08:10:04 AM
Post by: K Frame on April 04, 2008, 08:23:38 AM
NASCAR, midgets, Indy, even the ponies...
Post by: Gewehr98 on April 04, 2008, 08:24:27 AM
Post by: K Frame on April 04, 2008, 08:38:53 AM
The biggest problem with the Japanese, in my estimation, is their outright refusal to come to terms, or even admit, to the atrocities that they perpetrated against native people in Asia during their colonial/empire building period from the late 1800s through 1945.
Nanking? The Chinese did that to themselves!
Unit 731? They were trying to CURE an outbreak of plague, typhoid, etc.!
Most Japanese don't even know about the issues surrounding 731 or Nanking, or any of the other well documented atrocities committed in the name of the Emperor.
Ask them about the atomic bomb, though...
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on April 04, 2008, 02:52:56 PM
then again thats what happens when you were an army brat growing up in american occupied japan. the japanese have a very interesting culture, and a very long culture. i have often considered it to be in the same genre as our own. they are the complete evolution of eastern thought, just as america is the complete evolution of western thought. its no wonder then when heads butted, it got nasty.
as for race. one must remember that skin color is a very small part of it. in regards to race, i am of swedish and english decent (mostly) and i look like it. its not just that my skin is pale, it also has to do with my high cheekbones, my hair and my eye color.
BTW, (well i was going to direct this to the actual poster, but i think he may still be in time out)
race is a biological definition.
ethnicity is a cultural/sociological defintion.
Post by: grampster on April 04, 2008, 05:50:29 PM
Teddy lecturing on ethnicity is... cute. Not a paragon of virtue when it came to equality and freedom, that one.
I see woody's vision of revisionist history continues unabated.
Post by: LAK on April 04, 2008, 06:46:09 PM
----------------------
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http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 04, 2008, 06:57:09 PM
I do object to "Caucasian." I'm not from the Caucasus. That usage is derived from obsolete and disgusting racist theorizing, anyway.
Post by: wooderson on April 04, 2008, 07:10:24 PM
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I wonder if this is why terms like "Jap" and "Nip" have come to be regarded as racial slurs. So far as I can see, they are merely shortenings of "Japanese" or "Niponese." I never understood why anyone took offense at these words.
'Nip' and 'Jap' are clearly tied to a history of hostility (and racism, but moreso simply the hostility of conflict), shortened as a sign of disrespect. At this time (and barring a change in Japanese or American attitudes toward the words) are basically inseparable from that derogatory context.
There's also an issue revolving around the way we contract words into a harsh, monosyllabic sound (Nip, Jap, Jew, etc.), turning simple words from adjective to invective.
There's an example I bring up in similar discussions - is there a difference in "colored person" (or "colored") and "person of color"?
Post by: LadySmith on April 05, 2008, 12:20:19 AM
I have never understood why any brown-skinned person wants to be called "black". I have seen very few people of african descent in this country who are anywhere near black. For that matter, the only white people I have seen were wearing some kind of paint on their faces.
"Black" is just one of the many terms other people have applied. It's lazy, like most generalizations are, but has become acceptable. It's a better label than most and not met with the derision "African-American" generates. Why do Pink people want to be called "white"?
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 05, 2008, 03:40:48 AM