Post by: mtnbkr on March 18, 2008, 03:42:32 PM
When it started, I noticed some residue around the waterpump and evidence of spray on the inside of the hood. A pressure test confirms a leaking water pump. I replaced it. The noise doesn't go away. Reading online, I learn that the belt tensioner tends to go out at about this time (115k miles). The shop confirms it's bad and it's replaced. Noise gets better, but doesn't go away. The shop thinks it is the alternator (guy said he used a stethoscope to trace the sound to the alternator). I pulled the serpentine belt to check the alternator myself. There is no play in the shaft that I can discern. It rotates smoothly, but I can just barely hear a faint noise, almost a scraping sound, when I rotate the alternator. I can't feel it through the pulley though. With the car running, the noise is intermittent. It might make the noise for a bit, the stop, only to start later. Sometimes it starts when I crank the car and quits later, other times, it'll not make the noise until the car is warmed up.
What could this be? I've already spent $750 on this sound. I'd rather not replace the alternator if it's not bad.
If the alternator is going bad, but still charging, when does it become critical?
The car is a 2003 Toyota Camry 4cyl with 115k miles.
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 18, 2008, 04:29:50 PM
Your problem could be coming for any of the components that run off the belt. Test them one by one, as necessary. Good luck!
Post by: mtnbkr on March 18, 2008, 04:38:53 PM
Pull the alternator and take it to an auto parts store that tests them. The test involves running it off a belt just like your car does. It will make the noise if it's the culprit.
Your problem could be coming for any of the components that run off the belt. Test them one by one, as necessary. Good luck!
Your problem could be coming for any of the components that run off the belt. Test them one by one, as necessary. Good luck!
In talking this out with technicians, we ruled out the other components (doesn't change when I turn the AC on, doesn't change when I turn the steering wheel, making the steering pump work, etc). This is the first (potential) alternator failure I've experienced in 6 cars. What sort of auto parts stores test the alternator out of the car?
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 18, 2008, 05:11:51 PM
I don't know what technicians you're talking to, but your A/C compressor pulley still spins when the clutch is not engaged, and your power steering pulley still spins when you're not turning the wheel. All pulleys have bearings that can wear out independently from the component's function. Start with the alternator, have it tested, and go from there.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 18, 2008, 05:27:49 PM
I know those components have bearing and how they work, but I would expect the nature of the sound to change somewhat as load was applied to those devices vs running with no load.
Anyway, I'm going to pull the alternator tomorrow after work and run it out to Autozone.
I just paid the stupid car off and I've already spend over 3 payments in repairs (not counting whatever is still causing the noise).
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 18, 2008, 05:47:37 PM
I checked and Autozone will test it. For some reason, I thought they only check it while it was in the car.
I know those components have bearing and how they work, but I would expect the nature of the sound to change somewhat as load was applied to those devices vs running with no load.
Anyway, I'm going to pull the alternator tomorrow after work and run it out to Autozone.
I just paid the stupid car off and I've already spend over 3 payments in repairs (not counting whatever is still causing the noise).
Chris
I know those components have bearing and how they work, but I would expect the nature of the sound to change somewhat as load was applied to those devices vs running with no load.
Anyway, I'm going to pull the alternator tomorrow after work and run it out to Autozone.
I just paid the stupid car off and I've already spend over 3 payments in repairs (not counting whatever is still causing the noise).
Chris
The noise will probably change only when the engine speed changes, not when a load is applied, as the load has a negligible effect on the bearing.
If you want to try to pinpoint the noise before performing surgery, try spraying WD-40 behind the various pulleys with the engine running, one at a time, and see if the noise stops. Lubrication can silence a bad bearing temporarily.
I used this method to locate the same noise on one of my work trucks. It turned out to be the A/C compressor.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 18, 2008, 06:01:11 PM
BTW, if it is component bearing, can they be replaced rather than replacing the entire assembly?
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 18, 2008, 06:07:50 PM
Post by: geronimotwo on March 19, 2008, 03:41:54 AM
Post by: mfree on March 19, 2008, 03:52:49 AM
Do you have an automatic tensioner or do you tension your belt by hand?
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 04:12:41 AM
try spraying the wd-40 on the belt itself. sometimes weird sounds can come from a bent, misalighned, or rusty pulley.
No, don't do that unless you want your belt to die prematurely. Something would have to cause a pulley to become bent or misaligned, like hitting it with a hammer.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 05:32:37 AM
Do you have an automatic tensioner or do you tension your belt by hand?
Automatic tensioner.
The pulley isn't rusty and when I spin the shaft by hand, it doesn't appear to have any wobble or movement. I squirted a bit of WD40 between the pulley and alternator body this morning. The sound didn't go away, but it happened less frequently and for shorter durations. I'm not sure if that correlates to the WD40 or if it was just coincidence.
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 05:51:28 AM
Do you have an automatic tensioner or do you tension your belt by hand?
I squirted a bit of WD40 between the pulley and alternator body this morning. The sound didn't go away, but it happened less frequently and for shorter durations. I'm not sure if that correlates to the WD40 or if it was just coincidence.If the noise subsided, I'd say the alternator is likely the problem. Pull it and run it down to Autozone.
Post by: K Frame on March 19, 2008, 05:56:36 AM
It will eventually fail, but will make noise for awhile first.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 06:00:57 AM
Chris
Post by: wmenorr67 on March 19, 2008, 06:21:16 AM
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 06:25:17 AM
Post by: geronimotwo on March 19, 2008, 06:29:02 AM
try spraying the wd-40 on the belt itself. sometimes weird sounds can come from a bent, misalighned, or rusty pulley.
No, don't do that unless you want your belt to die prematurely. Something would have to cause a pulley to become bent or misaligned, like hitting it with a hammer.
serpentine belts today are neoprene, i believe, so it shouldn't be a problem. but spraying water on it acheive the same result.
Post by: mfree on March 19, 2008, 06:31:19 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 06:49:57 AM
I had the belt replaced a couple thousand miles ago, so that was my first thought, that it was too tight, but There's just no way to do it IMO.
I may have to try taking the bearing out, popping the seal, and packing some fresh grease inside. I'm going on a trip this weekend (500miles round trip including incidental driving). I'd rather have time to order a new alternator online rather than buy a remanned unit from Autozone or a factory unit ($$$$$$) from the dealership.
Chris
Post by: K Frame on March 19, 2008, 07:10:47 AM
If it doesn't go out, take it back to Autozone and get your money back on Monday.
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 07:14:56 AM
Definitely try to replace the bearing in it!
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 07:17:38 AM
Mike, that's a good idea about buying, but not using the unit from Autozone. I may just buy the one and pack it for the trip. Then order the one from the 'net when I get back.
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 07:25:13 AM
Once you do decide to fix your alternator, you're not going to find just the bearing from the auto parts store. They'll only have a rebuild kit, which will still be somewhat pricey and include many parts you don't need.
Disassemble the alternator, remove the bad bearing and find a specialty bearing shop. I have one near me called Bearing Service (www.bearingservice.com), and if you bring in any type of bearing they'll measure it and sell you a replacement for $5 - $10.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 07:30:27 AM
Chris
Post by: K Frame on March 19, 2008, 07:51:58 AM
It's more than that from the dealer, about $400 I think.
Mike, that's a good idea about buying, but not using the unit from Autozone. I may just buy the one and pack it for the trip. Then order the one from the 'net when I get back.
Chris
Mike, that's a good idea about buying, but not using the unit from Autozone. I may just buy the one and pack it for the trip. Then order the one from the 'net when I get back.
Chris
That's me, always thinking outside the armature!
Post by: Brad Johnson on March 19, 2008, 09:14:33 AM
Quote
I may pop the seal off and repack the grease. I've done this with bike related sealed bearings when I couldn't easily get replacements.
Won't work, not on an alternator anyway. High speed and high bearing load. Once the bearing begins to go, that's it. Unlike the bearings on your bike where grease can restore an iffy bearing to okay operation, greasing the alternator bearing might make the noise slightly less noticeable but it won't delay the eventual failure. Replace it.
One thing to try that will only take a second and you can do it as you get ready to pull the alternator. Remove the belt and crank the engine. Listen to everything and make sure the sound isn't coming from somewhere besides the accessory drive. Yes, the computer will do all kinds of complaining but it will be okay for the minute or two this will take.
Brad
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 09:25:18 AM
One thing to try that will only take a second and you can do it as you get ready to pull the alternator. Remove the belt and crank the engine. Listen to everything and make sure the sound isn't coming from somewhere besides the accessory drive. Yes, the computer will do all kinds of complaining but it will be okay for the minute or two this will take.
Brad
Brad
The only problem with that is the noise is not constant. It may or may not make the noise at startup, it might take 30 seconds to start making the noise, or I might drive it for a few minutes before it starts. Once it starts, it can go for half an hour or 5 seconds.
Chris
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 01:47:26 PM
Chris
Post by: Brad Johnson on March 19, 2008, 01:51:31 PM
Brad
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 02:21:05 PM
Lifetime replacement so why worry?
Brad
Brad
My only concern is a failure in the middle of a trip or in an area without an Autozone. Otherwise, no problem.
Chirs
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 03:18:38 PM
Chris
Post by: K Frame on March 19, 2008, 04:13:54 PM
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 04:40:03 PM
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 05:13:50 PM
Even if Mike is right about the longevity of Duralast components, you have the lifetime warranty.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 19, 2008, 05:21:26 PM
Chris
Post by: Declaration Day on March 19, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
That's my plan. It takes very little to swap one out. I used 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 19mm sockets, a ratchet, and a cheater bar. I'm not sure why, but the alternator used 12mm and 14mm bolts. Why not just use the same size?
Because that would make sense, and that goes against the work ethic of engineers.
Kidding aside, auto manufacturing plants sometimes run out of a certain part, and will substitute it with another one that works when necessary in order to keep the line moving.
Post by: K Frame on March 19, 2008, 08:09:52 PM
Unfortunately, there isn't much in the way of middle ground with alternators. You either have cheap rebuilt units or OEM replacements at over twice the price.
Chris
Chris
I always had my alternators rebuilt by a little independent shop the next town down... Ed's Alternators and Starters, IIRC. Only things he did, but he was always ferociously busy.
Post by: mtnbkr on March 20, 2008, 05:58:12 AM
Chris
Post by: charby on March 20, 2008, 06:09:10 AM
Also when the altenator bearing seizes it usually takes the serpentine belt with it.
-Charby
Post by: mtnbkr on March 20, 2008, 06:20:20 AM
Chris
Post by: mfree on March 20, 2008, 07:02:49 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on March 20, 2008, 07:06:49 AM
If that's all it took, that is one seriously fragile bearing.
Chris
Post by: K Frame on March 20, 2008, 07:28:47 AM
Post by: richyoung on March 20, 2008, 01:49:51 PM
I'm trying to diagnose a noise I've been getting from the serpentine belt area of my car for the past month. It started suddenly, but hasn't gotten worse.
When it started, I noticed some residue around the waterpump and evidence of spray on the inside of the hood. A pressure test confirms a leaking water pump. I replaced it. The noise doesn't go away. Reading online, I learn that the belt tensioner tends to go out at about this time (115k miles). The shop confirms it's bad and it's replaced. Noise gets better, but doesn't go away. The shop thinks it is the alternator (guy said he used a stethoscope to trace the sound to the alternator). I pulled the serpentine belt to check the alternator myself. There is no play in the shaft that I can discern. It rotates smoothly, but I can just barely hear a faint noise, almost a scraping sound, when I rotate the alternator. I can't feel it through the pulley though. With the car running, the noise is intermittent. It might make the noise for a bit, the stop, only to start later. Sometimes it starts when I crank the car and quits later, other times, it'll not make the noise until the car is warmed up.
What could this be? I've already spent $750 on this sound. I'd rather not replace the alternator if it's not bad.
If the alternator is going bad, but still charging, when does it become critical?
The car is a 2003 Toyota Camry 4cyl with 115k miles.
Chris
When it started, I noticed some residue around the waterpump and evidence of spray on the inside of the hood. A pressure test confirms a leaking water pump. I replaced it. The noise doesn't go away. Reading online, I learn that the belt tensioner tends to go out at about this time (115k miles). The shop confirms it's bad and it's replaced. Noise gets better, but doesn't go away. The shop thinks it is the alternator (guy said he used a stethoscope to trace the sound to the alternator). I pulled the serpentine belt to check the alternator myself. There is no play in the shaft that I can discern. It rotates smoothly, but I can just barely hear a faint noise, almost a scraping sound, when I rotate the alternator. I can't feel it through the pulley though. With the car running, the noise is intermittent. It might make the noise for a bit, the stop, only to start later. Sometimes it starts when I crank the car and quits later, other times, it'll not make the noise until the car is warmed up.
What could this be? I've already spent $750 on this sound. I'd rather not replace the alternator if it's not bad.
If the alternator is going bad, but still charging, when does it become critical?
The car is a 2003 Toyota Camry 4cyl with 115k miles.
Chris
Here's what I beleive to have happened...
The water pump started leaking. The serpentine belt carried the coolant (and sediment, and rust, and stop-leak - you get the idea...) along its path, where it, and the dirt it picked up off of the belt were drawn into the front of the alternator by the alternator pulley cooling fan, and into what would normally be a sealed front bearing, but which has obviously worn to the point that the grease can wash out, and dirt and water wash in, You now have dirty, rusty ball bearings - sometimes they pick up what's left of the orginal grease from the sealed bearing and quiet down - sometimes they run dry and noisey. The bearing will eventually fail. Good nes is this a cheap and easy fix - if the alternator is otherwise charging ok. You just need a front and back bearing, and a set of brushes for your alternator - (spend the money and get them already assembled in the bush holder with the springs and a lock strip, especially if this is your fist time. The old brushes will pop out of their holder when you pull the two halves of the alternator apart ( BIG TIP/HINT: take crayon or marker and draw a mark across both halves so that you reassemble them correctly.) The new bushes/holser will have a plastic straw that will poke out of the back of the alternator whne you bolt them in: don;t pull this straw until the alternator is completely reassembled, with both halves oriented correctly - otherwise, you will have to completely remove the brushes and holder, push the brushes down against the springs, and put the little lock strip back in theough the holes. (When you just replace brushes, you re-assemble with the old holder and springs, and use a piece of wire or the straw off of a WD-40 can....) The back bearing is usually a cup/needle bearing, like in a U-joint - drive out the old one with an appropriate sized drift (or socket, if you a po boy...)
and gently tap ini the new one. Front bearings are normally hels inplace with some kind of bolts - you'll figure it out. If you can only get brushes, see if your town has a "Bearing supply" store - take the ld ones in, and they can cross-match the numbers. Very cheap, & your alty will be ready for another 100000 miles. If you have a starter and alternator shop, you can pay them to do it....