Post by: Manedwolf on April 03, 2008, 11:43:27 AM
Quote
HARARE, Zimbabwe Raids on opposition party offices and the rounding up of foreign journalists are threatening to push Zimbabwe further toward confrontation between current President Robert Mugabe and the apparent winner of national elections.
Police raided the Meikles hotel, which is used by the opposition, Movement for Democratic Change, and ransacked some of the rooms. Riot police also surrounded another hotel housing foreign journalists, York Lodge, and took away several of them, according to a man who answered the phone there.
"Mugabe has started a crackdown," Movement for Democratic Change secretary-general Tendai Biti told The Associated Press. "It is quite clear he has unleashed a war."
Police raided the Meikles hotel, which is used by the opposition, Movement for Democratic Change, and ransacked some of the rooms. Riot police also surrounded another hotel housing foreign journalists, York Lodge, and took away several of them, according to a man who answered the phone there.
"Mugabe has started a crackdown," Movement for Democratic Change secretary-general Tendai Biti told The Associated Press. "It is quite clear he has unleashed a war."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,346068,00.html
Do they just not understand what the internet is? Why do these tinpot types think they can still get away with this and not be noticed? Woo, arrested some reporters to keep the story from getting out. Welcome to 1970.
Post by: HankB on April 03, 2008, 11:50:40 AM
Quote
Police raided the Meikles hotel,
Wow . . . I stayed there briefly when I hunted Zimbabwe in the early '90s . . . before Mugabe began seizing white-owned farms."Woman on the spot" commentary on what the mess in Zimbabwe means to ordinary people can be found at cathybuckle.com/thisweek.shtml
Post by: El Tejon on April 03, 2008, 11:50:59 AM
I heard today that the inbred tongue-cluckers at State issued a "harsh statement" to Mugabe. What did the cookie pushers at State think was going to happen? It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization. You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.
I say we drop captured AKs from Iraq, like in Lord of War, all over Africa so the African people can start all over. Remove the governments, run a bulldozer over the buildings and start with a fresh sheet of paper.
Post by: Finch on April 03, 2008, 12:24:30 PM
Post by: El Tejon on April 03, 2008, 12:26:09 PM
All the Superfriends from the Hall of Justice couldn't fix Mugabestan.
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on April 03, 2008, 12:50:19 PM
Quote
All the Superfriends from the Hall of Justice couldn't fix Mugabestan.
That's why we need Mercer. http://www.mercerforpresident2008.com/c14f7f9dd9bbed555232a5cb8defd6f7.html
Post by: Brad Johnson on April 03, 2008, 01:00:19 PM
Brad
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on April 03, 2008, 01:01:56 PM
Why is it the cheesier the dictator, the more crap they pin on?
Brad
"The cheaper the crook, the gaudier the patter." -Bogart, Maltese Falcon
Brad
Post by: charby on April 03, 2008, 01:11:16 PM
Do they just not understand what the internet is? Why do these tinpot types think they can still get away with this and not be noticed? Woo, arrested some reporters to keep the story from getting out. Welcome to 1970.
Same thing for China also. Some of these opressive government folks need to learn that the rest of the world can see everything you are doing via the Internet.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on April 03, 2008, 03:09:54 PM
Post by: De Selby on April 03, 2008, 04:54:37 PM
Quote
It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization. You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.
You can't be serious-a white racist government that wanted every black person in serfdom like in South Africa was "freedom and civilization"?
When I see comments like this, it reminds me why I shudder sometimes when I hear the words. If a modern repeat of slavery (which is exactly what Rhodesia and South Africa were before the black people stood up and demanded their rights) is civilization, I'll take savagery, any day of the week.
Post by: Bruce H on April 03, 2008, 05:14:14 PM
Quote
It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization. You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.
You can't be serious-a white racist government that wanted every black person in serfdom like in South Africa was "freedom and civilization"?
When I see comments like this, it reminds me why I shudder sometimes when I hear the words. If a modern repeat of slavery (which is exactly what Rhodesia and South Africa were before the black people stood up and demanded their rights) is civilization, I'll take savagery, any day of the week.
Well shootinstudent, perhaps you should read a little history about Zimbabwe. It wasn't at all like South Africa. They fed themselves and exported foodstuffs. They also exported durable goods before Mugabe. What they have has ever since Ian Smith is a worthless thug in power. White or black they come in all flavors. Mugabe needs shot out of his shoes at the earliest. Should have been done a long time ago.
Post by: De Selby on April 03, 2008, 05:17:13 PM
Quote
Well shootinstudent, perhaps you should read a little history about Zimbabwe. It wasn't at all like South Africa. They fed themselves and exported foodstuffs. They also exported durable goods before Mugabe. What they have has ever since Ian Smith is a worthless thug in power. White or black they come in all flavors. Mugabe needs shot out of his shoes at the earliest. Should have been done a long time ago.
We can all agree that Mugabe is a worthless thug.
But there should be similarly little doubt that Ian Smith was a racist who intended to keep Rhodesia as a slave state, where a tiny minority of whites controlled the country and issued orders to their millions of black slaves.
That is savage and backwards, plain and simple. There is simply no reasonable way to label that system "free" or "civilized."
Post by: longeyes on April 03, 2008, 05:29:44 PM
Post by: roo_ster on April 03, 2008, 06:17:42 PM
Mugabe & Co. worked diligently to prove him right.
Quote
It's Robert Frickin' Mugabe who YOU put in power instead of backing Ian Smith and freedom and civilization. You made the choice and it is a shame that you people are isolated from the consequences.
You can't be serious-a white racist government that wanted every black person in serfdom like in South Africa was "freedom and civilization"?
When I see comments like this, it reminds me why I shudder sometimes when I hear the words. If a modern repeat of slavery (which is exactly what Rhodesia and South Africa were before the black people stood up and demanded their rights) is civilization, I'll take savagery, any day of the week.
Ah, yes. The, "I'd rather be killed and eaten by a black man than not have the franchise while ruled by white men," argument. Very effective in some circles. There are some folks who concur with whole heart (braised over open coals).
"I Got Yer Savagery Right Here!"
Top aide testifies Taylor ordered soldiers to eat victims
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) -- Grim tales of cannibalism highlighting the brutality of West Africa's civil wars emerged in testimony Thursday at the war crimes trial of former Liberian President Charles Taylor.
Joseph "Zigzag" Marzah, who described himself as Taylor's chief of operations and head of the death squad before Taylor became president, said African peacekeepers and even United Nations personnel were killed and eaten on the battlefield by Taylor's militiamen.
Prosecutors described Marzah as a key witness with inside knowledge of the former Liberian president's operations in Liberia and neighboring Sierra Leone, where he is accused of responsibility for the widespread murder, rape and amputations committed by soldiers loyal to him.
Taylor, 59, has pleaded not guilty to 11 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity. He is accused of orchestrating violence in Sierra Leone's civil war, which ended in 2002, and trading in illegally mined diamonds to finance the conflict.
The trial by the Special Court for Sierra Leone, part of the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Netherlands, began last June but adjourned after one day when Taylor fired his lawyer. It reconvened in January, but many prosecution witnesses have testified behind closed doors for fear of retribution.
Marzah appeared in open court after lengthy negotiations involving protection for him and his family.
Prodded under cross-examination by defense lawyer Courtenay Griffith, Marzah gave a sometimes-graphic description of cannibalism that altered between the ritual taking of vengeance and the practical need for food.
He repeatedly said nothing was done without Taylor's instructions, and that anyone who violated Taylor's orders would be executed.
"Did Charles Taylor order you to eat people?" Griffith asked.
"Yes, to set an example for the people to be afraid," Marzah replied.
He appeared unfazed by Griffith's blunt queries, and responded in matter-of-fact tones to such questions as "How do you prepare a human being for the pot?"
Marzah then described the splitting, cleaning, decapitating and cooking of the corpse with salt and pepper. "We throw your head away," he said.
He said the victims were usually from the ethnic Krahn, the tribe of former Liberian President Samuel Doe whom Taylor set out to topple in 1989. But they also included peacekeepers from the Nigerian-led ECOMOG, the African peacekeeping force sent to the area in 1990, and some U.N. people, he said.
"How many ECOMOG soldiers did you eat?" the attorney asked.
"We ate a few but not many. But many were executed, about 68," the witness said, and several U.N. personnel also were captured. The time and location of the incident were unclear.
"Which ones taste best?" Griffith asked.
"There was no alternative but to do it your own way," Marzah replied.
Enemies, he was told, "are no longer human beings."
Taylor, then head of the National Patriotic Liberian Front, said in interviews at the time that he considered ECOMOG to be just another warring faction in the multisided civil wars in Sierra Leone and Liberia.
Later, ECOMOG helped stabilize the region, allowing elections in Liberia in 1997 that Taylor won.
More here:
http://www.sc-sl.org/Transcripts/Taylor/14March2008.pdf
http://charlestaylortrial.org/
Quote
I started sitting with Mr Taylor during the death of
Theodore when we took his liver and we used it at a ceremony and
he shared with us. We all ate it. And the same things happened
in the case of Sam Dokie. The death of Sam Dokie, his liver was
taken away by us and then we carried it and it was cooked by this
lady. I will call the woman's name. Annie Yenni. Annie Yenni.
Annie Yenni. Annie Yenni cooked it and Charles Taylor shared it
with us.
...
And even at the time he escaped from Ghana when we arrested
Cooperville along with Moses Blah, we arrested those two people,
and he was there in Ben's veranda. Ben and I were sitting down
and he said we should "control those people's hearts until I get
there". Then we took out those two guys' livers and then, after
we had kept it in Ben's freezer for a long time, when Charles
Taylor arrived we cooked it and all of us shared it together.
Theodore when we took his liver and we used it at a ceremony and
he shared with us. We all ate it. And the same things happened
in the case of Sam Dokie. The death of Sam Dokie, his liver was
taken away by us and then we carried it and it was cooked by this
lady. I will call the woman's name. Annie Yenni. Annie Yenni.
Annie Yenni. Annie Yenni cooked it and Charles Taylor shared it
with us.
...
And even at the time he escaped from Ghana when we arrested
Cooperville along with Moses Blah, we arrested those two people,
and he was there in Ben's veranda. Ben and I were sitting down
and he said we should "control those people's hearts until I get
there". Then we took out those two guys' livers and then, after
we had kept it in Ben's freezer for a long time, when Charles
Taylor arrived we cooked it and all of us shared it together.
Long Pork: The other other white meat.
Quote from: SS
That is savage and backwards, plain and simple. There is simply no reasonable way to label that system "free" or "civilized."
I must agree, cannibalism is just plain...Oh, you mean Mugabe's and Taylor's predecessors! Silly me.
Civilization is a continuum. On one end is abject savagery and on the other the liberal nation state with universal suffrage. Mugabe, Taylor, and similar leaders tug toward the savage end*. Smith** was no Ben Franklin, but he is head & shoulders above the Mugabes of the world. Yeah, not an exacting standard.
* They can't even claim mob rule status, as they do not honor popular election results.
** Interesting note: Smith was first elected as a policritter as a member of the Liberal Party. You really can't make this *expletive deleted*it up.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 03, 2008, 06:44:00 PM
Quote
Well shootinstudent, perhaps you should read a little history about Zimbabwe. It wasn't at all like South Africa. They fed themselves and exported foodstuffs. They also exported durable goods before Mugabe. What they have has ever since Ian Smith is a worthless thug in power. White or black they come in all flavors. Mugabe needs shot out of his shoes at the earliest. Should have been done a long time ago.
We can all agree that Mugabe is a worthless thug.
But there should be similarly little doubt that Ian Smith was a racist who intended to keep Rhodesia as a slave state, where a tiny minority of whites controlled the country and issued orders to their millions of black slaves.
That is savage and backwards, plain and simple. There is simply no reasonable way to label that system "free" or "civilized."
Except it wasn't slavery in thought or deed.
Restricted franchise? Yep, and that's dead wrong but is usually fixed with time.
Much like the mid-20th century US.
Or was that "slavery" too?
Reserved seats in Parliment to maintain minority representation. Yep, but again, that would have inevitably bowed to reality and ended over time as well.
I'll have to ask you to tone down the hyperbole and provide an actual citation to document "slavery" under any commonly and sociologically accepted definition.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on April 03, 2008, 07:06:20 PM
I'll have to ask you to tone down the hyperbole and provide an actual citation to document "slavery" under any commonly and sociologically accepted definition.
Post by: De Selby on April 03, 2008, 08:31:31 PM
You are leaving out the factors that made it slavery, such as:
-Refraining from any act or speech critical of the white regime on pain of torture and/or death
-Absolutely no individual choice in regards to employment. Labor was mostly de facto bonded to its white land ownership.
-Prohibitions on the ownership of any substantial personal property. By law, most large landholdings and all commercial landholdings were reserved for whites.
-Fairly strict codes enforcing the interaction of the races.
All of those were hallmarks of the racial slavery system, and they existed in both South Africa and Rhodesia. And they came will all the same justifications put forth by Ian Smith: "they're not fit for freedom" (where did we hear that one before?) "Agree in principle with freedom for blacks but it's just not the right time" (again, a familiar refrain) and "Whites maintain civilization and order" (Not too unfamiliar either.)
It is not hyperbole to call that system slavery-indeed, it shared all the legal and real-life characteristics of slavery, except that the masters in those countries didn't build big quarters for the slaves....the slaves were mostly left to build their own shacks at the end of the day's compulsory labor, performed under a strict legal code of "blacks must do x and y whenever they're near whites".
Post by: De Selby on April 03, 2008, 08:36:11 PM
I'll have to ask you to tone down the hyperbole and provide an actual citation to document "slavery" under any commonly and sociologically accepted definition.
No, I'd say it's more about some taking pride in institutionalized racism-and responding to that. A racial elite that rules the populace of blacks by force is not "freedom", irrespective of one's feelings of guilt or innocence with respect that crime.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 03, 2008, 09:01:15 PM
Post by: LAK on April 03, 2008, 11:18:56 PM
Quote
But there should be similarly little doubt that Ian Smith was a racist who intended to keep Rhodesia as a slave state, where a tiny minority of whites controlled the country and issued orders to their millions of black slaves.
That is not true. Anyone who served in Rhodesia's armed forces - black or white - will tell you that.What is true is that Ian Smith continued to live there after he was no longer in government with anyone free to call on him like any other household. If anyone had really had a grievence with him he was an easy unprotected target.
Must have been a very sad thing to watch the decline of that country.
------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitestates.org
Post by: HankB on April 04, 2008, 04:21:10 AM
carebear,
You are leaving out the factors that made it slavery, such as:
-Refraining from any act or speech critical of the white regime on pain of torture and/or death
Today, Mugabe thugs routinely torture, imprison, and kill political opponents.You are leaving out the factors that made it slavery, such as:
-Refraining from any act or speech critical of the white regime on pain of torture and/or death
-Absolutely no individual choice in regards to employment.
The "choice" today means a third of the population depends on food aid, and unemployment is at least 80%. Today, a third of the population has fled the country, whereas blacks from other parts of Africa were moving TO the evil slave state of Rhodesia . . . voting with their feet. --Prohibitions on the ownership of any substantial personal property. By law, most large landholdings and all commercial landholdings were reserved for whites.
Today, the only people who own any real property are Mugabe flunkies . . . the law is exactly what Mugabe & company say it is. -Fairly strict codes enforcing the interaction of the races.
Today's "Kill, rob, and exile the white devils" is a fairly strict racial code. All of those were hallmarks of the racial slavery system, and they existed in both South Africa and Rhodesia. And they came will all the same justifications put forth by Ian Smith: "they're not fit for freedom" (where did we hear that one before?) "Agree in principle with freedom for blacks but it's just not the right time" (again, a familiar refrain) and "Whites maintain civilization and order" (Not too unfamiliar either.)
Thank you for providing those quotes! As food for thought - do actual events - not your wishes but what's actually happening today - prove him wrong - or right? . . . It is not hyperbole to call that system slavery . . .
It may not be hyperbole, but it's SO far removed from reality that it's not even wrong.Pre-Mugabe, Rhodesia was considered to be the breadbasket of south central Africa. People had full bellies and health care for blacks, while certainly not up to US/European standards, was better than anywhere else in sub-Saharan Africa other than RSA, and there were jobs to be had. And again, people - BLACK people - were voting with their feet and moving TO both Rhodesia and South Africa . . . which says a great deal more about what conditions were actually like there than the uninformed pontifications of a white man in North America or Europe afflicted with slavery derangement syndrome.
Using shootinstudent's own examples, today's Zimbabwe is more of a "slave state" than Ian Smith's Rhodesia was.
Post by: roo_ster on April 04, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
"Whites made up 5% of the population, but 95% of the voters."
This implies that 5% of the voters were not white. How could this be, if there was a prohibition on black suffrage?
Thing is, there was no prohibition on black suffrage. Only a very few blacks met the requirements* to register to vote.
Also, when Rhodesia broke away form the UK, it further liberalized the franchise, making more black Africans eligible to vote.
All of this goes to the question, "Was Rhodesia a slave state?" I think not, unless one wants to torture the word, "slave," so much so that everyone qualifies as a "slave." When meaning is broadened to such an extent, the meaning dissipates and ends up signifying nothing.
* Changed over time, but usually included the ability to write one's home address and some sort of property or income. Literacy and a stake in the well-being of the country seem very reasonable requirements for the franchise. Matter of fact, our Founding Fathers has similar requirements.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 09, 2008, 05:46:13 AM
Again.
With no intention of keeping them productive, or ability to even if they did. Just armed thugs occupying the buildings after making the owners leave.
Post by: K Frame on April 09, 2008, 05:54:17 AM
Ya know, maybe Kipling's "white man's burden" wasn't so terribly far off the mark...
Post by: Manedwolf on April 09, 2008, 06:03:47 AM
Quote
Meanwhile chanting gangs of veterans of the war against white rule have occupied at least 27 farms since Saturday, with about 12 falling victim yesterday morning alone. Only about 200 white farmers are left in Zimbabwe - five per cent of the total eight years ago.
Trevor Gifford, president of the once powerful Commercial Farmers' Union (CFU), predicted that they would all be forced to leave their properties. "We are preparing for the worst," he said.
One white farmer, who declined to be named, was tipped off that squatters were about to overrun his property. He gathered his wife, their three children, aged seven, nine and 11, and his elderly parents and left immediately.
His homestead was duly invaded on Sunday. Trembling with emotion, the farmer said: "I have wondered what this day would be like, whether it would come after all these years. Now I am wondering if this is it, or if I will be able to get back."
The farmer survived the land invasions of 2000 and the official seizure of white-owned properties that began in earnest in 2002.
Trevor Gifford, president of the once powerful Commercial Farmers' Union (CFU), predicted that they would all be forced to leave their properties. "We are preparing for the worst," he said.
One white farmer, who declined to be named, was tipped off that squatters were about to overrun his property. He gathered his wife, their three children, aged seven, nine and 11, and his elderly parents and left immediately.
His homestead was duly invaded on Sunday. Trembling with emotion, the farmer said: "I have wondered what this day would be like, whether it would come after all these years. Now I am wondering if this is it, or if I will be able to get back."
The farmer survived the land invasions of 2000 and the official seizure of white-owned properties that began in earnest in 2002.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/08/wzim308.xml
(British media is seemingly obsessed with the minutiae of Zimbabwe's politics, I'm not quite sure why.)
Quote
He produced about 500 acres of soya beans this summer, half of which was due to be harvested right now.
The invasions began on Saturday in Masvingo province, about 160 miles south of the capital, Harare. Five farmers were forced to flee or were trapped inside their homes by drunken mobs. A game lodge was also seized.
Then the occupations spread to Centenery, once Zimbabwe's agricultural heartland where the guerrilla war against white rule began 36 years ago.
The invasions began on Saturday in Masvingo province, about 160 miles south of the capital, Harare. Five farmers were forced to flee or were trapped inside their homes by drunken mobs. A game lodge was also seized.
Then the occupations spread to Centenery, once Zimbabwe's agricultural heartland where the guerrilla war against white rule began 36 years ago.
So that's 250 acres of soybeans that will rot instead of being harvested. That's a lot of soybeans.
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on April 09, 2008, 06:20:11 AM
It seems they're mopping up the last of them, after completely destroying the economy in 2000 by seizing the most productive farms.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/08/wzim308.xml
(British media is seemingly obsessed with the minutiae of Zimbabwe's politics, I'm not quite sure why.)
So that's 250 acres of soybeans that will rot instead of being harvested. That's a lot of soybeans.
Quote
Meanwhile chanting gangs of veterans of the war against white rule have occupied at least 27 farms since Saturday, with about 12 falling victim yesterday morning alone. Only about 200 white farmers are left in Zimbabwe - five per cent of the total eight years ago.
Trevor Gifford, president of the once powerful Commercial Farmers' Union (CFU), predicted that they would all be forced to leave their properties. "We are preparing for the worst," he said.
One white farmer, who declined to be named, was tipped off that squatters were about to overrun his property. He gathered his wife, their three children, aged seven, nine and 11, and his elderly parents and left immediately.
His homestead was duly invaded on Sunday. Trembling with emotion, the farmer said: "I have wondered what this day would be like, whether it would come after all these years. Now I am wondering if this is it, or if I will be able to get back."
The farmer survived the land invasions of 2000 and the official seizure of white-owned properties that began in earnest in 2002.
Trevor Gifford, president of the once powerful Commercial Farmers' Union (CFU), predicted that they would all be forced to leave their properties. "We are preparing for the worst," he said.
One white farmer, who declined to be named, was tipped off that squatters were about to overrun his property. He gathered his wife, their three children, aged seven, nine and 11, and his elderly parents and left immediately.
His homestead was duly invaded on Sunday. Trembling with emotion, the farmer said: "I have wondered what this day would be like, whether it would come after all these years. Now I am wondering if this is it, or if I will be able to get back."
The farmer survived the land invasions of 2000 and the official seizure of white-owned properties that began in earnest in 2002.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/08/wzim308.xml
(British media is seemingly obsessed with the minutiae of Zimbabwe's politics, I'm not quite sure why.)
Quote
He produced about 500 acres of soya beans this summer, half of which was due to be harvested right now.
The invasions began on Saturday in Masvingo province, about 160 miles south of the capital, Harare. Five farmers were forced to flee or were trapped inside their homes by drunken mobs. A game lodge was also seized.
Then the occupations spread to Centenery, once Zimbabwe's agricultural heartland where the guerrilla war against white rule began 36 years ago.
The invasions began on Saturday in Masvingo province, about 160 miles south of the capital, Harare. Five farmers were forced to flee or were trapped inside their homes by drunken mobs. A game lodge was also seized.
Then the occupations spread to Centenery, once Zimbabwe's agricultural heartland where the guerrilla war against white rule began 36 years ago.
So that's 250 acres of soybeans that will rot instead of being harvested. That's a lot of soybeans.
And when more people than ever are starving in Zimbabwe, it'll still be the white man's fault.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 09, 2008, 06:34:08 AM
That's a lot of food lost.
Post by: HankB on April 09, 2008, 06:42:46 AM
Wonder if the un-named white farmer who fled his soybean farm left behind some booze laced with arsenic or something . . . he's had YEARS to prepare an appropriate welcome.
Probably not - the whites who neither fought nor fled in Zimbabwe after farm invasions began are like the Jews who stayed in Germany after Kristallnacht - in a state of terminal denial.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 09, 2008, 07:10:19 AM
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
Living with blinders on? Sure. But "home" is a powerful concept, as is wanting to believe in your fellow man.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 09, 2008, 07:19:39 AM
I don't know that is quite fair.
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
Um. That's precisely what happened before. Zimbabwe was doing alright. Mugabe came along, his people seized the farms, the economy collapsed, and the place is regressing to the stone age.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 09, 2008, 07:31:03 AM
I don't know that is quite fair.
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
Um. That's precisely what happened before. Zimbabwe was doing alright. Mugabe came along, his people seized the farms, the economy collapsed, and the place is regressing to the stone age.
Sure, but it's still their home. It's like people who don't leave California after every new and worse gun and nanny law is passed.
I'm not defending them, just pointing out that not every decision is based purely on reason, or even common sense.
I would hope they managed to get assets out of the country.
Post by: thebaldguy on April 09, 2008, 04:16:23 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on April 10, 2008, 11:49:50 AM
Post by: El Tejon on April 10, 2008, 12:05:53 PM
It is a great injustice that the elites that cause this are not suffering the consequences of their actions. This is Azania's future.
Post by: HankB on April 11, 2008, 04:08:36 AM
It's almost hard to believe that in 1980, the Rhodesian dollar was worth more than the US dollar. I'm old enough to have watched the demise of that country over the years. I'm suprised it's taken this long.
IIRC, when I was in Zim in the early '90s, the official exchage rate was around Z$5 to US$1 . . . the black market rate was 9 to 1.A year or two back, they knocked three zeros off their currency, so $1000 became $1 overnight.
Earlier this year, a newspaper story said Zimbabwe was now printing $10,000,000 bank notes . . . equivalent to ten billion dollars in the old currency . . . and at the time, one was just about enough to buy 2/3 of a hamburger in Harare.
With inflation somewhere above 100,000% - a number that makes the Weimar Republic look like an economic powerhouse - we're simply watching the total economic collapse of what once was a country leaving the stone age and entering the 20th Century.
That's what happens in Africa when you trade evil white racists for kleoptocratic Marxists because the latter are the right color.
Post by: El Tejon on April 13, 2008, 05:56:03 AM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 13, 2008, 09:40:34 AM
Hank, yes, but I feel better about myself now, and, let's face it, it's all about ME.
What does Maine have to do with this?
Post by: El Tejon on April 14, 2008, 11:12:36 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on April 18, 2008, 05:46:00 AM
Quote
April 18 (Bloomberg) -- Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe deployed the army, police and intelligence officers to intimidate voters in rural areas to ensure he wins a presidential run-off vote, two top members of his party said.
The officials, who belong to the ruling Zanu-PF party's politburo, said the security forces are working with youth militia loyal to the party and groups who describe themselves as veterans of Zimbabwe's 1966-1979 liberation war against a minority white-led government.
Mugabe, 84, sought to extend his 28-year rule of Zimbabwe in the March 29 presidential election, which the opposition Movement for Democratic Change says it won. While the results are yet to be released, Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front party officials have said none of the four contenders, including MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai, attained the majority needed to avoid a second round. The MDC says it will only compete if international observers are allowed to monitor the election.
``The violence being perpetrated against rural Zimbabweans has reached epidemic proportions,'' George Sibotshiwe, a spokesman for Tsvangirai, said in an interview from Gaborone, Botswana, today. ``People are being beaten and even killed, women are being raped, children abused and houses burned to the ground.''
The officials, who belong to the ruling Zanu-PF party's politburo, said the security forces are working with youth militia loyal to the party and groups who describe themselves as veterans of Zimbabwe's 1966-1979 liberation war against a minority white-led government.
Mugabe, 84, sought to extend his 28-year rule of Zimbabwe in the March 29 presidential election, which the opposition Movement for Democratic Change says it won. While the results are yet to be released, Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front party officials have said none of the four contenders, including MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai, attained the majority needed to avoid a second round. The MDC says it will only compete if international observers are allowed to monitor the election.
``The violence being perpetrated against rural Zimbabweans has reached epidemic proportions,'' George Sibotshiwe, a spokesman for Tsvangirai, said in an interview from Gaborone, Botswana, today. ``People are being beaten and even killed, women are being raped, children abused and houses burned to the ground.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJuuozuvyD68&refer=home
Post by: The Annoyed Man on April 18, 2008, 09:14:16 AM
Any chance the APS Pirate Hunting Expedition can deal with this clown as well? Everyone would thank us, except for the present ruling class in Zimbabwe, but they don't really count.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 19, 2008, 04:09:24 AM
Wars are prolonged and embarassing. Genocides are quick and silent, and that, apparently, is what the UN prefers.
Next up is massive civilian casualties in Zimbabwe due to an armed regime and unarmed population.
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Zimbabwe weapons ship headed for Angola
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (CNN) -- A Chinese ship loaded with arms and ammunition sailed away from a South African waters and is on its way to Luanda, Angola to unload its cargo bound for Zimbabwe.
South Africa's High Court ruled Friday the cargo could be offloaded in the Durban port, but it could not pass over South Africa roads to get to Zimbabwe, a country in crisis because of an election stalemate.
Durban's dockworkers also said they would not handle the cargo, fearing the arms would be used by the Zimbabwean government against its own people.
A South African government source told CNN the China-flagged An Yue Jiang had sailed away from Durban Friday evening before the High Court's order could be served to the ship's captain.
The ship was headed to the port of Luanda, Angola, according to the South African Department of Transport.
Zimbabwe is in turmoil after elections last month that saw the opposition Movement for Change party win a majority of seats in the parliament, although Mugabe's ZANU-PF party has contested 16 seats, claiming the MDC cheated.
The Zimbabwe Electoral Commission began a recount of 23 of those districts Saturday morning.
The presidential election, however, has sparked much more concern. The government of President Robert Mugabe, who has been in power since Zimbabwe won its independence in 1980, has refused to release results of that vote before a recount.
The MDC says its candidate, Morgan Tsvangirai, won the election, but ZANU-PF has claimed the MDC engaged in election tampering. The delay in releasing the vote sparked violence and a government crackdown on opposition members.
"This union has a proud history of taking action against regimes which it disapproves of in the past, but this is certainly the first time it has gotten involved in an African regime like Zimbabwe," David Cockroft, general secretary of the International Transport Workers Federation, said.
"I don't think there's much doubt that the (dock) workers ... are very strongly against the Mugabe regime," he said.
Cockroft said that arms had almost certainly been shipped to Zimbabwe through Durban in the past, but the size of this shipment -- "more than a million pounds" and 3.5 million rounds of rifles, small arms, mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades -- made it more noteworthy.
Earlier, South African Revenue Service spokesman Adrian Lackay told CNN "that it is commonplace for landlocked neighboring states in southern Africa to use South African ports of entry for the transshipment of goods."
Lackay indicated that the ship had complied with South African regulations requiring it to disclose the contents of the cargo it is carrying.
A government spokesman, Thembo Maseko, told CNN, "There were arms on the ship."
The Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a statement in a fax to the Reuters news agency saying that China and Zimbabwe have normal trade relations, that the Chinese government takes a "prudent and responsible" position on arms deals and that it does not involve itself in the internal affairs of other countries.
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (CNN) -- A Chinese ship loaded with arms and ammunition sailed away from a South African waters and is on its way to Luanda, Angola to unload its cargo bound for Zimbabwe.
South Africa's High Court ruled Friday the cargo could be offloaded in the Durban port, but it could not pass over South Africa roads to get to Zimbabwe, a country in crisis because of an election stalemate.
Durban's dockworkers also said they would not handle the cargo, fearing the arms would be used by the Zimbabwean government against its own people.
A South African government source told CNN the China-flagged An Yue Jiang had sailed away from Durban Friday evening before the High Court's order could be served to the ship's captain.
The ship was headed to the port of Luanda, Angola, according to the South African Department of Transport.
Zimbabwe is in turmoil after elections last month that saw the opposition Movement for Change party win a majority of seats in the parliament, although Mugabe's ZANU-PF party has contested 16 seats, claiming the MDC cheated.
The Zimbabwe Electoral Commission began a recount of 23 of those districts Saturday morning.
The presidential election, however, has sparked much more concern. The government of President Robert Mugabe, who has been in power since Zimbabwe won its independence in 1980, has refused to release results of that vote before a recount.
The MDC says its candidate, Morgan Tsvangirai, won the election, but ZANU-PF has claimed the MDC engaged in election tampering. The delay in releasing the vote sparked violence and a government crackdown on opposition members.
"This union has a proud history of taking action against regimes which it disapproves of in the past, but this is certainly the first time it has gotten involved in an African regime like Zimbabwe," David Cockroft, general secretary of the International Transport Workers Federation, said.
"I don't think there's much doubt that the (dock) workers ... are very strongly against the Mugabe regime," he said.
Cockroft said that arms had almost certainly been shipped to Zimbabwe through Durban in the past, but the size of this shipment -- "more than a million pounds" and 3.5 million rounds of rifles, small arms, mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades -- made it more noteworthy.
Earlier, South African Revenue Service spokesman Adrian Lackay told CNN "that it is commonplace for landlocked neighboring states in southern Africa to use South African ports of entry for the transshipment of goods."
Lackay indicated that the ship had complied with South African regulations requiring it to disclose the contents of the cargo it is carrying.
A government spokesman, Thembo Maseko, told CNN, "There were arms on the ship."
The Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a statement in a fax to the Reuters news agency saying that China and Zimbabwe have normal trade relations, that the Chinese government takes a "prudent and responsible" position on arms deals and that it does not involve itself in the internal affairs of other countries.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/04/19/safrica.china/index.html
Post by: rocinante on April 19, 2008, 05:33:05 AM
I am proud of the South African people. A Chinese ship full of arms for this tinhorn and his thugs docked in South Africa and the dock workers refused to unload it. Once they did their act of civil disobedience the government backed them and the ship scooted off for Mozambique before its cargo could be impounded. It would be grand if they rejected it also but don't hold your breath on that one.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 19, 2008, 10:24:43 AM
Well, the last time the Chinese helped Mugabe it was to indoctrinate his guerillas in Marxism and train them to kill fellow Rhodesians.
Ironically the camps and weapons were supplied in and through Mozambique, which is where that ship full of arms is going.
Going back to the well for Round 2?
Post by: jpk1md on April 19, 2008, 10:40:02 AM
I don't know that is quite fair.
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
It's their home and once was a civilized country based on the rule of law. To assume it will fall into anarchy and just leave is, while realistic perhaps, making the leap in logic that in fact your neighbors and fellow citizens really aren't up to the task of maintaining it themselves.
Um. That's precisely what happened before. Zimbabwe was doing alright. Mugabe came along, his people seized the farms, the economy collapsed, and the place is regressing to the stone age.
Sure, but it's still their home. It's like people who don't leave California after every new and worse gun and nanny law is passed.
I'm not defending them, just pointing out that not every decision is based purely on reason, or even common sense.
I would hope they managed to get assets out of the country.
Fair point about common sense but I don't think you can make a decent analogy between the passing of a couple of really assinine laws in Kali and the total/utter collapse of a backwater country in Africa that was propped up by colonial rule for a very long time.
Africa as a whole is one of the most corrupt places in the entire world.....
The only reason it made any steps forward at all was due to colonial rule and the desire to obtain the natural resources that exist there by the Europeans....now the Chinese are making a play for those resources...the only difference is that they could care less about establishing/maintaining any semblance of order and will rely on the dictator or despot of the week to get what they want.
Post by: El Tejon on April 19, 2008, 02:17:42 PM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 19, 2008, 03:29:48 PM
You mean, blame the United States for not unilaterally intervening... mutter mutter no oil there, that's why... mutter mutter colonialism... mutter mutter don't care about black people...
Post by: Scout26 on April 20, 2008, 09:25:28 AM
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Any chance the APS Pirate Hunting Expedition can deal with this clown as well?
Depends on how well Gewehr98 does his carrier launched B-52 plan.
Post by: HankB on April 20, 2008, 01:02:30 PM
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19th April 2008
Dear Family and Friends,
Behind every tree, under every bush and around every corner, it seems there is a British enemy waiting to invade Zimbabwe.
"We must maintain the utmost vigilance in the face of vicious British machinations," Mr Mugabe warned as he spoke at his celebration of Zimbabwe's 28th anniversary of Independence.
No one that I've spoken to this week had even the vaguest clue of what a machination is. A few thought it had something to do with machinery or engines, others that it was a mispronunciation of the word imagination. Still others wondered if these mysterious machinations had anything to do with the Chinese ship steaming around looking for somewhere to unload its cargo of death destined for Harare. The ship loaded with 3 million bullets, 1500 rocket propelled grenades and 3000 mortar shells. So we sat on the edge of our chairs this Independence day wondering just exactly where the British are hiding and what their unknown vicious something-or-other means to our daily lives.
Nearly thirty years after Independence the threats and warnings of British plots haven't just worn thin, they've worn out altogether. It is generally agreed that at most there are perhaps thirty thousand white people left in Zimbabwe - a miniscule percentage in a population of approximately 11 million people . . .
Dear Family and Friends,
Behind every tree, under every bush and around every corner, it seems there is a British enemy waiting to invade Zimbabwe.
"We must maintain the utmost vigilance in the face of vicious British machinations," Mr Mugabe warned as he spoke at his celebration of Zimbabwe's 28th anniversary of Independence.
No one that I've spoken to this week had even the vaguest clue of what a machination is. A few thought it had something to do with machinery or engines, others that it was a mispronunciation of the word imagination. Still others wondered if these mysterious machinations had anything to do with the Chinese ship steaming around looking for somewhere to unload its cargo of death destined for Harare. The ship loaded with 3 million bullets, 1500 rocket propelled grenades and 3000 mortar shells. So we sat on the edge of our chairs this Independence day wondering just exactly where the British are hiding and what their unknown vicious something-or-other means to our daily lives.
Nearly thirty years after Independence the threats and warnings of British plots haven't just worn thin, they've worn out altogether. It is generally agreed that at most there are perhaps thirty thousand white people left in Zimbabwe - a miniscule percentage in a population of approximately 11 million people . . .
Bloody British schemers!
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Sunday 13th April 2008
Dear Family and Friends, I received a call early one morning this week from a friend in a small country town. Speaking quickly and quietly for fear of being overheard, he told me of the frightening events that were going on all around him. Eight double cab vehicles had arrived in the town. Armed men in civilian clothes alighted. They had lists of names of people who had been involved in the election campaign for the opposition MDC in the area.
"They are hunting us down," he said. "Each and every one of us is being sought out, beaten and punished for supporting the MDC." Some have had their homes burnt down, large numbers of people have been beaten and a local opposition organizer said :" it is terrible, there are injured people everywhere."
Later another call came, this time the story was of events on one of the few remaining commercial farms. Again the eye witness account was of armed men. There were youths too, many scores of them and they were clearly high on drugs and drink. The drumming, singing, shouting and intimidation carried only one message: there will be no change in Zimbabwe . . .
Dear Family and Friends, I received a call early one morning this week from a friend in a small country town. Speaking quickly and quietly for fear of being overheard, he told me of the frightening events that were going on all around him. Eight double cab vehicles had arrived in the town. Armed men in civilian clothes alighted. They had lists of names of people who had been involved in the election campaign for the opposition MDC in the area.
"They are hunting us down," he said. "Each and every one of us is being sought out, beaten and punished for supporting the MDC." Some have had their homes burnt down, large numbers of people have been beaten and a local opposition organizer said :" it is terrible, there are injured people everywhere."
Later another call came, this time the story was of events on one of the few remaining commercial farms. Again the eye witness account was of armed men. There were youths too, many scores of them and they were clearly high on drugs and drink. The drumming, singing, shouting and intimidation carried only one message: there will be no change in Zimbabwe . . .
No change . . . but I thought CHANGE was a good thing?!?
Post by: rocinante on April 21, 2008, 03:37:13 PM
Time for a China rant. At least in the bad old cold war days the Soviet Union at least pretended to have principles even if all someone had to do was scream death to America and know Karl Marx wasn't Groucho Marx's brother. China will give any cut throat arms in Africa for economic gains. Nothing personal folks of the Sudan and Zimbabwe. WHILE I AM AT IT where did they get off changing Peking to Beijing?
?Post by: El Tejon on April 22, 2008, 01:46:16 PM
Peking=>Deaf Englishmen Wade and Giles attempting to romanize the spoken North ideogram and Capital ideogram
Post by: rocinante on April 22, 2008, 03:27:35 PM
I am half grossing about Peking. I am not kidding about Myanmar though. BURMA. Speaking of another unsavory client of BEIJING. Love the movie Sand Pebbles.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 23, 2008, 04:19:05 AM
(Someone had some boxes at a show that had gotten damp. Labeled noncorrosive, but the primers had erupted in crystals of blue salts that had caused the steel cases to totally rust. Noncorrosive, right.)
Post by: The Annoyed Man on April 23, 2008, 05:59:25 AM
I would say they could send it to the US, but I've seen too much Norinco 7.62x39 that was corrosive when it was labeled as not being corrosive.
(Someone had some boxes at a show that had gotten damp. Labeled noncorrosive, but the primers had erupted in crystals of blue salts that had caused the steel cases to totally rust. Noncorrosive, right.)
3 million rounds of 7.62 commie. How much space does that take? I wonder how much I could fit into my apartment...they are welcome to send it here! Please include 100 Norinco AK's as well, select fire if you please (Someone had some boxes at a show that had gotten damp. Labeled noncorrosive, but the primers had erupted in crystals of blue salts that had caused the steel cases to totally rust. Noncorrosive, right.)
.
Post by: yesitsloaded on April 23, 2008, 04:30:53 PM
Post by: HankB on April 24, 2008, 03:41:34 AM
Angola and Zambia turned the ship away too.
It was probably easy to convince Zambia to do so, seeing as they don't have much of a coastline.
Post by: El Tejon on April 24, 2008, 04:34:32 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on April 26, 2008, 05:15:06 PM
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Scores of children and babies have been locked up in filthy prison cells in Harare as Robert Mugabe, Zimbabwes president, sinks to new depths in his campaign to force the opposition into exile before an expected run-off in presidential elections.
Twenty-four babies and 40 children under the age of six were among the 250 people rounded up in a raid on Friday, according to Nelson Chamisa, spokesman for the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC). Yesterday they were crammed into cells in Southerton police station in central Harare.
This is ruthlessness of the worst kind. How can you incarcerate children whose mothers have fled their homes hoping to give their children refuge? asked an emotional Chamisa yesterday. In Mugabes Zimbabwe even children are not spared the terror that befalls their parents.
Twenty-four babies and 40 children under the age of six were among the 250 people rounded up in a raid on Friday, according to Nelson Chamisa, spokesman for the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC). Yesterday they were crammed into cells in Southerton police station in central Harare.
This is ruthlessness of the worst kind. How can you incarcerate children whose mothers have fled their homes hoping to give their children refuge? asked an emotional Chamisa yesterday. In Mugabes Zimbabwe even children are not spared the terror that befalls their parents.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3822569.ece
Will someone please give the opposition a bunch of PSLs with scopes on them?
Post by: El Tejon on April 27, 2008, 11:31:08 AM
If one needs to look for an example of life under Barry Obama, one only need look to Chicago: the people disarmed and taxed to death. Chicago, Illinois is a moronic government bent on reinforcing the failure of Socialism with brute force.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 27, 2008, 11:59:52 AM
The RKBA is about hunting politicians, not woodland creatures.
If one needs to look for an example of life under Barry Obama, one only need look to Chicago: the people disarmed and taxed to death. Chicago, Illinois is a moronic government bent on reinforcing the failure of Socialism with brute force.
If one needs to look for an example of life under Barry Obama, one only need look to Chicago: the people disarmed and taxed to death. Chicago, Illinois is a moronic government bent on reinforcing the failure of Socialism with brute force.
Sooooo...
For rats, not deer.
Taxed to death? What Illinois needs is more taxes, aren't you paying attention to Mayor Daley and Senator Obama?
Post by: lee n. field on April 27, 2008, 05:34:58 PM
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Did they really think this guy would give up power? Place went to hell under his rule. This ought to get interesting.
No. Guys like that have too many people who want them dead. He can't quit.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on April 27, 2008, 07:27:15 PM
If guys like Che and Fidel can be revered, certainly Bobby Mugabe can, too, don'thca think?
Post by: Moondoggie on April 30, 2008, 06:33:13 AM
Probably provide a guest wing for him and his cronies and extend secret service protection for him and his clan.
Post by: HankB on April 30, 2008, 06:49:46 AM
If guys like Che and Fidel can be revered, certainly Bobby Mugabe can, too, don'thca think?
Especially since Mugabe probably didn't personally murder as many people as Che . . . he had his I'm sure the Carter Center would hire Mugabe as a guest lecturer.
Of course they would. The only Carter Center board members with a shred of ethics resigned a couple of years ago over Jimmy's "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" book.