Post by: wmenorr67 on May 08, 2008, 08:05:47 PM
Quote
CONCORD, N.H. Since they first walked the planet, humans have either buried or burned their dead. Now a new option is generating interest dissolving bodies in lye and flushing the brownish, syrupy residue down the drain.
The process is called alkaline hydrolysis and was developed in this country 16 years ago to get rid of animal carcasses. It uses lye, 300-degree heat and 60 pounds of pressure per square inch to destroy bodies in big stainless-steel cylinders that are similar to pressure cookers.
No funeral homes in the U.S. or anywhere else in the world, as far as the equipment manufacturer knows offer it. In fact, only two U.S. medical centers use it on human bodies, and only on cadavers donated for research.
But because of its environmental advantages, some in the funeral industry say it could someday rival burial and cremation.
"It's not often that a truly game-changing technology comes along in the funeral service," the newsletter Funeral Service Insider said in September. But "we might have gotten a hold of one."
Getting the public to accept a process that strikes some as ghastly may be the biggest challenge.
Psychopaths and dictators have used acid or lye to torture or erase their victims, and legislation to make alkaline hydrolysis available to the public in New York state was branded "Hannibal Lecter's bill" in a play on the sponsor's name Sen. Kemp Hannon and the movie character's sadism.
Alkaline hydrolysis is legal in Minnesota and in New Hampshire, where a Manchester funeral director is pushing to offer it. But he has yet to line up the necessary regulatory approvals, and some New Hampshire lawmakers want to repeal the little-noticed 2006 state law legalizing it.
"We believe this process, which enables a portion of human remains to be flushed down a drain, to be undignified," said Patrick McGee, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Manchester.
State Rep. Barbara French said she, for one, might choose alkaline hydrolysis.
"I'm getting near that age and thought about cremation, but this is equally as good and less of an environmental problem," the 81-year-old lawmaker said. "It doesn't bother me any more than being burned up. Cremation, you're burned up. I've thought about it, but I'm dead."
In addition to the liquid, the process leaves a dry bone residue similar in appearance and volume to cremated remains. It could be returned to the family in an urn or buried in a cemetery.
The coffee-colored liquid has the consistency of motor oil and a strong ammonia smell. But proponents say it is sterile and can, in most cases, be safely poured down the drain, provided the operation has the necessary permits.
Alkaline hydrolysis doesn't take up as much space in cemeteries as burial. And the process could ease concerns about crematorium emissions, including carbon dioxide as well as mercury from silver dental fillings.
The University of Florida in Gainesville and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., have used alkaline hydrolysis to dispose of cadavers since the mid-1990s and 2005, respectively.
Brad Crain, president of BioSafe Engineering, the Brownsburg, Ind., company that makes the steel cylinders, estimated 40 to 50 other facilities use them on human medical waste, animal carcasses or both. The users include veterinary schools, universities, pharmaceutical companies and the U.S. government.
Liquid waste from cadavers goes down the drain at the both the Mayo Clinic and the University of Florida, as does the liquid residue from human tissue and animal carcasses at alkaline hydrolysis sites elsewhere.
Manchester funeral director Chad Corbin wants to operate a $300,000 cylinder in New Hampshire. He said that an alkaline hydrolysis operation is more expensive to set up than a crematorium but that he would charge customers about as much as he would for cremation.
George Carlson, an industrial-waste manager for the New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services, said things the public might find more troubling routinely flow into sewage treatment plants in the U.S. all the time. That includes blood and spillover embalming fluid from funeral homes.
The department issued a permit to Corbin last year, but he let the deal on the property fall through because of delays in getting the other necessary permits. Now he must go through the process all over again, and there is gathering resistance. But he said he is undeterred.
"I don't not know how long it will take," he said recently, "but eventually it will happen."
The process is called alkaline hydrolysis and was developed in this country 16 years ago to get rid of animal carcasses. It uses lye, 300-degree heat and 60 pounds of pressure per square inch to destroy bodies in big stainless-steel cylinders that are similar to pressure cookers.
No funeral homes in the U.S. or anywhere else in the world, as far as the equipment manufacturer knows offer it. In fact, only two U.S. medical centers use it on human bodies, and only on cadavers donated for research.
But because of its environmental advantages, some in the funeral industry say it could someday rival burial and cremation.
"It's not often that a truly game-changing technology comes along in the funeral service," the newsletter Funeral Service Insider said in September. But "we might have gotten a hold of one."
Getting the public to accept a process that strikes some as ghastly may be the biggest challenge.
Psychopaths and dictators have used acid or lye to torture or erase their victims, and legislation to make alkaline hydrolysis available to the public in New York state was branded "Hannibal Lecter's bill" in a play on the sponsor's name Sen. Kemp Hannon and the movie character's sadism.
Alkaline hydrolysis is legal in Minnesota and in New Hampshire, where a Manchester funeral director is pushing to offer it. But he has yet to line up the necessary regulatory approvals, and some New Hampshire lawmakers want to repeal the little-noticed 2006 state law legalizing it.
"We believe this process, which enables a portion of human remains to be flushed down a drain, to be undignified," said Patrick McGee, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Manchester.
State Rep. Barbara French said she, for one, might choose alkaline hydrolysis.
"I'm getting near that age and thought about cremation, but this is equally as good and less of an environmental problem," the 81-year-old lawmaker said. "It doesn't bother me any more than being burned up. Cremation, you're burned up. I've thought about it, but I'm dead."
In addition to the liquid, the process leaves a dry bone residue similar in appearance and volume to cremated remains. It could be returned to the family in an urn or buried in a cemetery.
The coffee-colored liquid has the consistency of motor oil and a strong ammonia smell. But proponents say it is sterile and can, in most cases, be safely poured down the drain, provided the operation has the necessary permits.
Alkaline hydrolysis doesn't take up as much space in cemeteries as burial. And the process could ease concerns about crematorium emissions, including carbon dioxide as well as mercury from silver dental fillings.
The University of Florida in Gainesville and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., have used alkaline hydrolysis to dispose of cadavers since the mid-1990s and 2005, respectively.
Brad Crain, president of BioSafe Engineering, the Brownsburg, Ind., company that makes the steel cylinders, estimated 40 to 50 other facilities use them on human medical waste, animal carcasses or both. The users include veterinary schools, universities, pharmaceutical companies and the U.S. government.
Liquid waste from cadavers goes down the drain at the both the Mayo Clinic and the University of Florida, as does the liquid residue from human tissue and animal carcasses at alkaline hydrolysis sites elsewhere.
Manchester funeral director Chad Corbin wants to operate a $300,000 cylinder in New Hampshire. He said that an alkaline hydrolysis operation is more expensive to set up than a crematorium but that he would charge customers about as much as he would for cremation.
George Carlson, an industrial-waste manager for the New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services, said things the public might find more troubling routinely flow into sewage treatment plants in the U.S. all the time. That includes blood and spillover embalming fluid from funeral homes.
The department issued a permit to Corbin last year, but he let the deal on the property fall through because of delays in getting the other necessary permits. Now he must go through the process all over again, and there is gathering resistance. But he said he is undeterred.
"I don't not know how long it will take," he said recently, "but eventually it will happen."
Post by: K Frame on May 08, 2008, 08:36:43 PM
Only they made soap...
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 08, 2008, 08:41:07 PM
Post by: 280plus on May 09, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
Post by: LadySmith on May 09, 2008, 12:52:14 AM
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 09, 2008, 12:58:59 AM
...and I'd only be 47.5% pure...
Yeah............Right.
Post by: LadySmith on May 09, 2008, 01:16:08 AM
Yeah............Right.
Hey, this is the internets...I can fudge numbers if I want to.
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 09, 2008, 01:17:52 AM
Post by: LadySmith on May 09, 2008, 01:36:30 AM
1 or 2 % is fudging.
Well...dang. 
Post by: mtnbkr on May 09, 2008, 02:18:43 AM
Chris
Post by: LadySmith on May 09, 2008, 02:26:31 AM
Post by: AJ Dual on May 09, 2008, 04:29:00 AM
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on May 09, 2008, 04:29:50 AM
They do say in the article that the bones form a powdery mass, with about the same amount left over as from a cremation, and that those remains could be put in an urn.
Post by: Brad Johnson on May 09, 2008, 04:39:47 AM
Brad
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 09, 2008, 04:42:27 AM
Post by: Standing Wolf on May 09, 2008, 04:50:09 AM
Post by: xavier fremboe on May 09, 2008, 04:52:46 AM
I only want it done if the slurry can be put into balloons and hurled at my enemies.
That may be the most hardcore thing without an expletive that I've ever read. Most excellent.
Post by: charby on May 09, 2008, 04:54:04 AM
Post by: Brad Johnson on May 09, 2008, 04:55:43 AM
Brad
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 09, 2008, 04:56:19 AM
Post by: charby on May 09, 2008, 05:07:35 AM
I do know that HCl will eat porcelin and cast iron.
Post by: Tallpine on May 09, 2008, 06:35:48 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on May 09, 2008, 06:42:02 AM
I'll quit smoking when my ashes reach room temperature.
nevermind...got the joke. 
Chris
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on May 09, 2008, 06:46:54 AM
Quote
"It's not often that a truly game-changing technology comes along in the funeral service,"
Ya see? Where else besides APS can you hear really cool phrases like that?
Post by: AJ Dual on May 09, 2008, 01:49:48 PM
I only want it done if the slurry can be put into balloons and hurled at my enemies.
That may be the most hardcore thing without an expletive that I've ever read. Most excellent.Yep. Everyone gets a balloon, an 8x10 glossy and a short dossier on the target, or they're out of the will.
Post by: zahc on May 09, 2008, 01:52:40 PM
Post by: AJ Dual on May 09, 2008, 02:17:41 PM
Neat stuff.
Post by: 280plus on May 09, 2008, 02:19:41 PM
Down the friggin' drain...
Post by: Josh Aston on May 09, 2008, 03:37:44 PM
Post by: Scout26 on May 09, 2008, 04:34:58 PM
Post by: BridgeRunner on May 09, 2008, 04:42:39 PM
I'll take the coyotes myself. Or buzzards. Always have liked birds.
Failing that, bugs.
One major sadness in my conversion to Christianity is I'm barred from the Jewish cemetery, where they still do it more or less the old fashioned way--pine box, no vaults. And no walking away either. Your friends and family fill in your grave. That'd be fine by me.
I don't like the instant-quick-gone approach. Made my grandfather's death a bit harder to cope with. Ashes or sludge, both are a little too quick with the clean-up and gone thing.
Post by: lupinus on May 09, 2008, 05:43:43 PM
Post by: Josh Aston on May 09, 2008, 05:51:18 PM
and the soup of the evening is...
Did you hear that?
That was the sound of me throwing up in my mouth.
Post by: zahc on May 09, 2008, 06:46:58 PM
Quote
One major sadness in my conversion to Christianity is I'm barred from the Jewish cemetery
Do you mean your new Christianity doesn't allow you to go to jewish cemeterys, or the Jews won't let you in now that you aren't Jewish? I ask because my wifey's coworker is Jewish and she was invited to funeral, and told me about the plain box bit. We're quite Christian.
Post by: BridgeRunner on May 09, 2008, 06:50:11 PM
Do you mean your new Christianity doesn't allow you to go to jewish cemeterys, or the Jews won't let you in now that you aren't Jewish? I ask because my wifey's coworker is Jewish and she was invited to funeral, and told me about the plain box bit. We're quite Christian.
I mean barred from burial, not from entry.
Post by: Dntsycnt on May 09, 2008, 07:52:29 PM
Then I shall haunt whoever wears me, and make them feel uncomfortable and watched while in the bathroom for all of eternity! Bwahahahaha!
Post by: BridgeRunner on May 09, 2008, 07:55:25 PM
I still say I want to be pressed into a diamond and fitted on a ring and pawned.
Then I shall haunt whoever wears me, and make them feel uncomfortable and watched while in the bathroom for all of eternity! Bwahahahaha!
Then I shall haunt whoever wears me, and make them feel uncomfortable and watched while in the bathroom for all of eternity! Bwahahahaha!
Dude, my husband's creepy uncle wanted to get that done with his mom's ashes so he could give "her" to his girlfriend as an engagement ring. Can you think of anything creepier than giving some chick your MOM mounted in an engagement ring?
Post by: Josh Aston on May 09, 2008, 07:58:24 PM
I still say I want to be pressed into a diamond and fitted on a ring and pawned.
Then I shall haunt whoever wears me, and make them feel uncomfortable and watched while in the bathroom for all of eternity! Bwahahahaha!
Then I shall haunt whoever wears me, and make them feel uncomfortable and watched while in the bathroom for all of eternity! Bwahahahaha!
Dude, my husband's creepy uncle wanted to get that done with his mom's ashes so he could give "her" to his girlfriend as an engagement ring. Can you think of anything creepier than giving some chick your MOM mounted in an engagement ring?
That's just sick. What are you going to do on your wedding night? Make your bride take the ring off? Or bring MOM to bed with you?
Post by: S. Williamson on May 09, 2008, 08:11:06 PM
Post by: zahc on May 09, 2008, 09:06:41 PM
Post by: lupinus on May 10, 2008, 03:40:35 AM
My grandfather had a pinky ring that his father had made when his wife (grandpas mom) passed. Basically it was great-grandmas engagement ring and both wedding bands melted down, the center stone was the diamond from the engagement ring, and two accent stones that were previously in the wedding bands.
The center stone is going into my future wifes engagement ring, I'm debating the accent stones. But grandpa was cremated so I've always toyed with the idea of pressing a few of his ashes and wearing grandpa around.
"Kiss the grandpa"
Post by: BridgeRunner on May 10, 2008, 04:28:19 AM
My grandfather had a pinky ring that his father had made when his wife (grandpas mom) passed. Basically it was great-grandmas engagement ring and both wedding bands melted down, the center stone was the diamond from the engagement ring, and two accent stones that were previously in the wedding bands.
See, that's cool. My own engagement ring (which functions as a wedding ring because my wedding ring doesn't fit me well) has a stone that belonged to the same lady whose ashes are up for diamond-ification. It's actually been in the family since the 1890's. And that's cool. Aside from the dire consequences if I lose the thing.
But I am just creeped out by the idea of gifting one's new spouse with the (admittedly very attenuated) remains of a dead relative.
Post by: Dntsycnt on May 10, 2008, 05:14:29 AM
Post by: Harold Tuttle on May 10, 2008, 05:27:23 AM
there is a better solution:
"Damn, your mother is a tough old bird"
"Shut up, and pass me a leg"
Post by: Iain on May 10, 2008, 05:34:43 AM
Burial I can deal with, cremation I can deal with. Both have long histories of being a means of corpse disposal. Dissolving bodies in chemicals has a history as means of furtive corpse disposal, and that makes it weird, for the time being anyway.
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 10, 2008, 05:39:13 AM
My grandparents were buried that way.
Had an uncle say the first one to go should be buried face up and the second buried face down.
Post by: Dntsycnt on May 10, 2008, 07:05:58 AM
I wonder what the legality of this is. I'd really like to do it.
Post by: Sindawe on May 10, 2008, 07:32:49 AM
Quote
and the soup of the evening is...
That I Grok in fullness.
I'm with Ian. Wrap the empty vessel in a linen shroud and plant it under some fruit or nut tree. Let the accumulated nutrients feed the still living.
That, or prop it up by some remote trail where the sun bleached bones can startle passing hikers and frighten small children.
Post by: K Frame on May 10, 2008, 07:41:36 AM
Is that kind of burial carbon neutral enough?
Post by: Harold Tuttle on May 10, 2008, 07:48:43 AM
I like the Buddhist monk slice'em up and feed the vultures approach
DARI COUNTY, CHINA - NOVEMBER 5: A burial master shows his knife after a celestial burial ceremony at the Chalang Temple on November 5, 2007 in Dari County of Guoluo Prefecture, Qinghai Province, northwest China. Celestial burial is a traditional funeral of Tibetan people, which began in the 7th century. When the ceremony is held, aromatic plants are burnt for smoke to guide the soul to reach the celestial burial ground. The body of the dead, placed in a sitting stance, is sliced by a celestial burial master, then offered to vultures, which are called "holy eagles". Tibetans believe the vulture can help the dead gain merits and virtues. A burial master can earn about 100 yuan (approximately USD 13.5) for handling every burial.
Post by: 280plus on May 10, 2008, 12:04:37 PM
Post by: Tallpine on May 10, 2008, 02:05:59 PM
Quote
prop it up by some remote trail where the sun bleached bones can startle passing hikers and frighten small children.
Now I like that idea
Post by: johnster999 on May 10, 2008, 05:00:54 PM
Post by: lupinus on May 10, 2008, 07:29:43 PM
It's on the menu with liver fava beans and a nice chianti
What did yall think there wasn't a soup course?
Just imagine what we could use to make crunchies to put on the soup for texture!
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 10, 2008, 08:14:24 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 10, 2008, 09:46:55 PM
Post by: Josh Aston on May 10, 2008, 09:51:31 PM
Just imagine what we could use to make crunchies to put on the soup for texture!
I don't wanna imagine
Post by: Harold Tuttle on May 11, 2008, 09:26:24 AM
Put on my slippers
Walked in the kitchen and died
And oh what a feeling!
When my soul
Went thru the ceiling
And on up into heaven I did ride
When I got there they did say
John, it happened this way
You slipped upon the floor
And hit your head
And all the angels say
Just before you passed away
These were the very last words
That you said:
Chorus:
Please don't bury me
Down in that cold cold ground
No, I'd druther have "em" cut me up
And pass me all around
Throw my brain in a hurricane
And the blind can have my eyes
And the deaf can take both of my ears
If they don't mind the size
Give my stomach to Milwaukee
If they run out of beer
Put my socks in a cedar box
Just get "em" out of here
Venus de Milo can have my arms
Look out! I've got your nose
Sell my heart to the junkman
And give my love to Rose
Repeat Chorus
Give my feet to the footloose
Careless, fancy free
Give my knees to the needy
Don't pull that stuff on me
Hand me down my walking cane
It's a sin to tell a lie
Send my mouth way down south
And kiss my ass goodbye
Repeat Chorus