Post by: roo_ster on May 16, 2008, 05:43:06 AM
Bottom Line
OK if you hate driving or you are indifferent to driving.
Intro
I just had an all-expense-paid-trip to Twentynine Palms, CA, courtesy of my employer.
When I got to the rental car counter, they asked me if a Prius was OK and I was game.
Context
To put my review in context, I researched and test-drove pretty many of the autos in the Prius class late last year for my mother's auto purchase:
Honda Civic
Mazda 3
Volkswagen Jetta
Ford Fusion & Focus
Nissan Sentra
Chevy Cobalt & HHR
Interior & Controls
The first thing you notice is its goofy controls.
Startup requires that the keyfob be placed in its slot, your foot on the brake, and a press on the "Start" button.
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen. This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way. Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system. Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller. To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen. MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.
Last, the gearshift is what I would describe as, "Straight Outta Cushman." As in golf-cart-like.
The upholstery, seats, etc. are all competent in a Toyota-boring sort of way. They get the job done with no fuss or panache.
It is definitely a compact/sub-compact, interior size-wise. It has less storage space you might expect for the class, however.
For some reason, it is classed as, "mid-sized" by fueleconomy.gov. You couldn't tell that by the usable interior space.
Exterior
Toyota-boring. 'Nuff said on that subject.
Drive
In town, it gets the job done without offense and with competence. It is not quick, but not pokey. It handles sedately, but without wallowing. One thing that I noticed was some hesitation when I would mash the accelerator and the gas engine was invoked to help the electric.
On the road and especially in the hills, the Prius is a rolling annoyance. Its buzzy, weak gas engine is a constant reminder that this auto is built for fuel economy, not performance. Did I mention the buzzy engine? If you took a 2-stroke weed-whacker and placed it a 1/2 block away, behind one turn, you would understand how it sounds under load. Where it was sedate and non-wallowy in town, it got more & more bloated-feeling as it got steeper & twisty-er.
This is not a car for "drivers," but for commuters or operators. If you demand a positive tactile experience while driving, this car is not for you. If you consider an auto merely a way to get from point A to point B, the Prius may be your thing in town.
Relative to Other Autos
ANY of the autos I mentioned above, with the exception of the Nissan Sentra, will provide a better driving experience. The Jetta and 3 blow it outta the water, while the Civic, Ford & Chevy entrants are merely superior.
Let me say again, the Chevy Cobalt/HHR has a more rewarding driving experience.
The Prius does get ~10MPG more than the others, with the exception of the Jetta turbo diesel, which is comparable. The Jetta provides a much more rewarding driving experience, though, it is hard to compare.
I guess the Prius has green cachet, but the effective impact over the lifetime of the two vehicles is likely the same or slightly in the Jetta's favor, as a turbo diesel will soldier on long after similar gasoline engines are scrap. The environmental impact of building two or three Priuses and operating them over the lifetime of one Jetta TDI is likely much greater than keeping your TDI in running order.
(Heck, keeping one's currently-owned auto in running condition is likely more environmentally-friendly than buying a new anything.)
Conclusion
See the bottom line, above.
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 16, 2008, 05:47:33 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 05:51:09 AM
Quote
One thing that I noticed was some hesitation when I would mash the accelerator and the gas engine was invoked to help the electric.
That might be as much a fault of Toyota's annoying electronic throttle as anything. My 03 Camry has the electronic throttle and after 2 years of driving it, I still can't quite adjust.
As for the Prius, I'm not quite sure why anyone would take on the higher cost of ownership just to gain a few miles per gallon over the Corolla or Yaris (does the Prius even do better than the Yaris?). I haven't driven the Prius or Yaris, so maybe I'm missing something. The Yaris is cheaper, if you factor that into the equation, it's going to be cheaper to own long term even if it doesn't get better gas mileage.
Chris
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 16, 2008, 05:53:53 AM
Quote
Startup requires that the keyfob be placed in its slot, your foot on the brake, and a press on the "Start" button.
Wrong. You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.
Quote
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen. This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way. Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system. Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller. To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen. MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.
Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it. This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 16, 2008, 05:56:49 AM
Then you claim he is stupid.
Guess you are just the smartest person on here.
NOT!
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 05:58:43 AM
Quote
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen. This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way. Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system. Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller. To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen. MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.
Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it. This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.
Well, you're fussing about cellphones, which are just in your ear. I think taking your eyes off the road is a bad thing, so this is a lot worse.
To put it in perspective, my car has a steering wheel remote for the stereo, with all tactile-feel buttons. I can adjust volume, change CD tracks or XM channels or iPod tracks, switch sources, even adjust level balance or mute the whole system with the right hand still being used for steering, without taking my eyes off the road.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 06:02:41 AM
Yaris: 29/35 (surprising, my 1993 Paseo, which is a similar car, got 30/40 with a 5spd and 15yr older tech)
Prius: 48/45 (Paddy, do you have real world numbers?)
Corolla: 27/35 (conservative, my dad's 07 model gets 30something/40something in actual driving with an automatic transmission)
Base Purchase Price:
Yaris: $11,350
Prius: $21, 100
Corolla: $15,250
I didn't equalize for options, I just grabbed the base model prices. That said, the Prius starts nearly $10k higher than the Yaris and nearly $6k higher than the Corolla. How much gass will the savings purchase if you get a Yaris or Corolla? What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?
Maybe hybrids will be viable when they come down in price and are close to the price of standard vehicles, or when the MPG figures further eclipse standard autos. For now, they're mere status symbols.
Chris
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 06:04:31 AM
Besides, what do you do if you want an aftermarket stereo? I mean, it's not as big a deal as it used to be, factory stereos are pretty decent. The base model 6 speaker AM/FM/CD/Cassette system in my Camry is pretty good, but what if you want more?
Wrong. You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.
Yeah, I bike with a guy who's hybrid Camry does the same.
Chris
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 16, 2008, 06:08:09 AM
Quote
To put it in perspective, my car has a steering wheel remote for the stereo, with all tactile-feel buttons. I can adjust volume, change CD tracks or XM channels or iPod tracks, switch sources, even adjust level balance or mute the whole system with the right hand still being used for steering, without taking my eyes off the road.
Our Prius has those controls in the steering wheel also, plus Bluetooth cellphone controls.
Post by: bedlamite on May 16, 2008, 06:08:35 AM
I guess the Prius has green cachet, but the effective impact over the lifetime of the two vehicles is likely the same or slightly in the Jetta's favor, as a turbo diesel will soldier on long after similar gasoline engines are scrap. The environmental impact of building two or three Priuses and operating them over the lifetime of one Jetta TDI is likely much greater than keeping your TDI in running order.
That doesn't even count the environmental impact of mining the nickel and manufacturing the battery, or the cost to replace it in 100K miles.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 06:11:27 AM
That doesn't even count the environmental impact of mining the nickel and manufacturing the battery, or the cost to replace it in 100K miles.
I think the lifespan has been estimated to go longer, but I'd still be miffed if I had to replace it before 200k unless it was cheap, say less than $1000. That doesn't include the batteries that fail "just because" as batteries sometimes do.
And yes, I keep cars that long. My 4Runner has 160k, my Camry has 120k. The Paseo I referenced above had 200k when I sold it merely because we had a child on the way and it was too small.
Chris
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 06:44:41 AM
Chris
Post by: bedlamite on May 16, 2008, 06:47:34 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 06:55:02 AM
Chris
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 06:56:14 AM
I haven't got the actual cost to replace the battery with new, but I've heard between $2K-4K. They can be had on Ebay for $500
If it looks too good to be true, it is.
What you'd get, likely, if you got anything at all, was a scrapped Toyota casing with a row of lead-acid batteries jammed in it, or low-quality Chinese batteries wired improperly.
Caveat emptor.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 06:59:34 AM
Judging by one pic where the battery was sitting on what looked like standard 1 sq/ft floor tiles, the batteries are roughly 3' long and 18" wide. They're being shipped freight, so they can't be particularly light. Doesn't look like a job for the average Prius owner to me.
Chris
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 16, 2008, 07:01:17 AM
But the Prius is SWMBO's car and I don't have to drive it. It is comfortable on long trips, though.
Post by: K Frame on May 16, 2008, 07:02:25 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 07:04:09 AM
Chris
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 07:05:53 AM
And, the mileage on the Prius is not much better than on my Echo, which cost half as much, has a manual tranny that allows better control, and still gets 40 mpg.
That there is the problem I have with hybrids (at least the compact ones). The mileage isn't much better, if at all, than similar sized cars. It makes a bit more sense on larger vehicles such as full sized cars and SUVs, but I'm still afraid of the technology from a durability standpoint.
Chris
Post by: Tallpine on May 16, 2008, 07:08:10 AM
I like being able to get in and out without feeling like I'm doing the limbo dance.
Downside is the low ground clearance (well, it's just a car after all ...)
Post by: roo_ster on May 16, 2008, 07:53:58 AM
First, it's "Toyota", not Toyta
Wrong. You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.
Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it. This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.
Quote
Startup requires that the keyfob be placed in its slot, your foot on the brake, and a press on the "Start" button.
Wrong. You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.
Quote
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen. This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way. Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system. Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller. To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen. MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.
Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it. This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.
I was able to operate it just fine, O Master of Spellcheck. My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving. Such poor design is not confined to the Prius, as BMW took one in the jimmy for their particular LCD-touchscreen control center a few years back.
Also, I recall your point about only needing the keyfob in the auto, not necessarily in the slot. I tried it, but it did not work. I suspect the rental car company has disabled that particular "feature" for some reason.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 07:58:45 AM
Wow. Wait'll thieves learn to use a RFID reader with a loop antenna to copy Prius owners' keys from across the room...
It'll be worse than those Mercedes models with an IR keyless entry, whose pattern could be captured by any cheap universal remote set to "learn" mode when the key was used.
Post by: K Frame on May 16, 2008, 07:59:03 AM
You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?
Post by: erictank on May 16, 2008, 08:13:30 AM
I just looked up the mpg specs on Toyota's website:
Yaris: 29/35 (surprising, my 1993 Paseo, which is a similar car, got 30/40 with a 5spd and 15yr older tech)
Prius: 48/45 (Paddy, do you have real world numbers?)
Corolla: 27/35 (conservative, my dad's 07 model gets 30something/40something in actual driving with an automatic transmission)
Base Purchase Price:
Yaris: $11,350
Prius: $21, 100
Corolla: $15,250
I didn't equalize for options, I just grabbed the base model prices. That said, the Prius starts nearly $10k higher than the Yaris and nearly $6k higher than the Corolla. How much gass will the savings purchase if you get a Yaris or Corolla? What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?
Maybe hybrids will be viable when they come down in price and are close to the price of standard vehicles, or when the MPG figures further eclipse standard autos. For now, they're mere status symbols.
Chris
Yaris: 29/35 (surprising, my 1993 Paseo, which is a similar car, got 30/40 with a 5spd and 15yr older tech)
Prius: 48/45 (Paddy, do you have real world numbers?)
Corolla: 27/35 (conservative, my dad's 07 model gets 30something/40something in actual driving with an automatic transmission)
Base Purchase Price:
Yaris: $11,350
Prius: $21, 100
Corolla: $15,250
I didn't equalize for options, I just grabbed the base model prices. That said, the Prius starts nearly $10k higher than the Yaris and nearly $6k higher than the Corolla. How much gass will the savings purchase if you get a Yaris or Corolla? What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?
Maybe hybrids will be viable when they come down in price and are close to the price of standard vehicles, or when the MPG figures further eclipse standard autos. For now, they're mere status symbols.
Chris
IIRC, 2008 fuel efficiency standards appear SHARPLY lower than 07 and before, even for the same model vehicle, due to adjustments to the testing procedure. I believe on the order of 10 or more MPG lower, for the same model car, between the two years. Makes the Prius look a little better, though of course real-world numbers rule over EPA estimates.
I remember an amusing article a couple of years back alleging that, after manufacturing, maintenance, disposal, and replacement costs over vehicle lifetimes were taken into account, the Hummer H2 was a "greener" vehicle than the then-current Prius. Can't speak from to the truth of it, but the article made a good argument.
Post by: Brad Johnson on May 16, 2008, 08:33:24 AM
What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?
Well, there's the $7000-$8000 cost of battery pack replacement at 100k (+/- 15K).
Brad
Post by: roo_ster on May 16, 2008, 08:41:50 AM
"My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving."
You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?
You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?
Yes, but the Prius is an extreme example.
The usual stereo unit has a seek or scan button that you can glance at, mash, and be on your way. The Prius requires several button/touchscreen mashes in a particular order to accomplish the same thing. Not only that, some of the touchscreen and real buttons are close enough that it is easy to hork it up even if you watch what you are doing.
Heck, in the last year I have had 15+ rental cars, consisting of ~10 different models. The Prius tops them all when it comes to difficulty/distraction to accomplish that task.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 08:43:05 AM
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm
Quote
And Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents. Toyota further claims that the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery packs used in all Prius models are expected to last the life of the car with very little to no degradation in power capability.
For those of us who have cell phones and other devices with NiMH batteries, that claim may sound unrealistic. Over time, the battery's charge longevity seems to wane, resulting in shorter and shorter usage between charges. Eventually, the battery becomes worthless and we buy a replacement.
But in the case of most electronic devices, the batteries tend to get fully charged, then nearly fully discharged before being charged again. For the power pack in the Prius, at least, Toyota says this would greatly shorten the life span of the battery.
A navigation screen converts to show the driver what type of power the Prius is using, gas or electric.
To get maximum life out of the Prius battery pack, the car's computer brain does not allow the battery to fully charge or discharge. Toyota says that for the best service life, the Prius battery likes to be kept at about a 60 percent charge. In normal operation, the system usually lets the charge level vary only 10-15 percentage points. Therefore, the battery is rarely more than 75 percent charged, or less than 45 percent charged.
According to Toyota, the life of the Prius battery pack is determined more by mileage than by time, and it has been tested to 180,000 miles. Supporting this are first- and second-generation Prius taxis in Canada that have reportedly traveled more than 200,000 miles without suffering any battery problems.
For those of us who have cell phones and other devices with NiMH batteries, that claim may sound unrealistic. Over time, the battery's charge longevity seems to wane, resulting in shorter and shorter usage between charges. Eventually, the battery becomes worthless and we buy a replacement.
But in the case of most electronic devices, the batteries tend to get fully charged, then nearly fully discharged before being charged again. For the power pack in the Prius, at least, Toyota says this would greatly shorten the life span of the battery.
A navigation screen converts to show the driver what type of power the Prius is using, gas or electric.
To get maximum life out of the Prius battery pack, the car's computer brain does not allow the battery to fully charge or discharge. Toyota says that for the best service life, the Prius battery likes to be kept at about a 60 percent charge. In normal operation, the system usually lets the charge level vary only 10-15 percentage points. Therefore, the battery is rarely more than 75 percent charged, or less than 45 percent charged.
According to Toyota, the life of the Prius battery pack is determined more by mileage than by time, and it has been tested to 180,000 miles. Supporting this are first- and second-generation Prius taxis in Canada that have reportedly traveled more than 200,000 miles without suffering any battery problems.
Chris
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 08:45:38 AM
"My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving."
You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?
You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?
Yes, but the Prius is an extreme example.
The usual stereo unit has a seek or scan button that you can glance at, mash, and be on your way. The Prius requires several button/touchscreen mashes in a particular order to accomplish the same thing. Not only that, some of the touchscreen and real buttons are close enough that it is easy to hork it up even if you watch what you are doing.
Heck, in the last year I have had 15+ rental cars, consisting of ~10 different models. The Prius tops them all when it comes to difficulty/distraction to accomplish that task.
This is why you hire a user interface designer with the correct degrees and a portfolio of successful design. Obviously, they didn't.
Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.
Post by: bedlamite on May 16, 2008, 08:49:29 AM
This is why you hire a user interface designer with the correct degrees and a portfolio of successful design. Obviously, they didn't.
Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.
Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.
There are 3 engineers on my trap team. One of their biggest gripes is that marketing wants to throw the KISS rule out the window.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 08:55:35 AM
This is why you hire a user interface designer with the correct degrees and a portfolio of successful design. Obviously, they didn't.
Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.
Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.
There are 3 engineers on my trap team. One of their biggest gripes is that marketing wants to throw the KISS rule out the window.
To be fair, though, engineers are often pretty horrific at aesthetic design.
For some reason, whenever they deliver a web app to me, it's usually in NAVY BLUE AND RED or some other eye-hurting solid-color blandness, and I've got to soften it up and give it a pleasing palette and intuitive controls. And what makes sense UI-wise to an engineer is probably not going to make sense to the average user. Sometimes that need to add more layers is to accommodate the very real fact that different users will have different ways of thinking that will cause them to take different paths, and a good design will allow for multiple paths to the same destination to accommodate that. It's also why all designs should be tried with test users and visual tracking of where they look, along with a red flag on anything that causes confusion. Just look at engineer-designed sites like Sourceforge. Just TRY to find the simple "Download it here" link.
(it's usually a tiny 8px font link down at the bottom of a huge scroll of source and build revisions)
Post by: Brad Johnson on May 16, 2008, 09:07:43 AM
Quote
Manufacturers expect the batteries to last between 150k and 200k under normal use.
M'kay, so figure $4000 per 100k. That's 4 cents per mile just for the battery pack.
So....
Battery pack costs per 100k = 4 cents per mile.
$3.70 gas at 40 mpg = 9.25 cents per mile.
Total fuel cost = 13.25 cent per mile
At 13.25 cents per mile fuel cost, and using the same $3.70 fuel, any vehicle that gets 27.92 mpg or better (highway) trounces the Prius in per-mile fuel cost. And no battery pack full of toxic heavy metals to deal with, or to have manufactured in the first place.
There are a whole host of vehicles that get at least 27-28 mpg highway that are larger, more comfortable, more powerful, safer, and have fewer expensive doo-dads to fail. Luminas, Tuarus/500s, and a bunch of other 'family' sedans regularly top 30. Heck, even a standard Crown Vic (not the 3.27 geared Sport model) will get a real-world 25-26 mpg highway.
Brad
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 09:22:28 AM
I wouldn't own one today, but I won't write them off yet either. Give them a few years and let's see what the engineering folks do with the concept.
Chris
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 09:24:49 AM
They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.
http://www.komotv.com/news/local/7445836.html
Quote
"If it's not handled properly it's gonna kill you"
Story Published: May 10, 2007 at 11:16 PM PDT
Story Updated: May 11, 2007 at 11:36 AM PDT
By Michelle Esteban
Watch the story
SEATTLE -- Right now, 1.5 percent of all cars sold in the U.S. are hybrids, and in three years that number is expected to be six times higher. At some local dealerships they even have waiting lists for customers who want to purchase a hybrid vehicle.
But what makes these cars so desirable, is also creating an extra danger.
The problem starts right under the hood, where most hybrids have bright orange cables carrying high-voltage electricity between the batteries and engine. Those cables can be a hot zone for firefighters responding to collisions involving hybrids.
Emergency responders have an inherently hazardous job, but the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is adding to the potential dangers they face on a daily basis.
The risk of electrocution is very real.
"If it's not handled properly it's gonna kill you," said Seattle firefighter Tim Clark. "You have to understand what it is you're dealing with."
The combination gas-electric vehicles have up to 500 volts running through them, and can also pose a danger to passengers in a crash.
When firefighters are called to high-speed collisions, they often have to cut drivers and passengers out of the mangled vehicles.
But cut in the wrong place on a hybrid car before the battery is disconnected, and it could result in a lethal shock.
Clark says its just one more thing they have to think about when they're rushing to save lives. "If we don't spend a couple seconds on this, we could end up wishing we had," he said.
Camano Island / Stanwood Fire Chief Darin Reid said that because of the complex electrical systems found in hybrid cars, they don't always behave the same way in a crash as traditional vehicles.
"You could very well have a hybrid car moving while on fire," he said. And because the hybrid's electric motor is silent, firefighters can't always tell if it's running.
Reid said that if rescuers wrongly assume that the engine is off, one wrong move could launch the hybrid into drive, with the victim still inside and firefighters on or near the vehicle.
Fore the last seven years, Reid has been teaching everything he knows about hybrids to Washington firefighters. There are some standard do's and don'ts, but he reminds everyone that not all hybrids are the same. The electrical systems vary from one manufacturer to another.
"No company puts the wiring in the same spot," Reid said.
So, many fire departments often rely on the Internet when responding to crashes involving hybrid vehicles. It's not uncommon for firefighters to call up a manufacturer's web site so they can double-check the car's emergency response guidelines.
Matt Stroud, a safety instructor with Toyota, spends much of his time training firefighters on how to safely deal with a Prius at the scene of a crash.
Firefighters will often take field trips to area dealerships to practice disconnecting the car's electrical system.
"All hybrids, including the Prius, have a built-in safety system that's supposed to turn the car off if it's in a crash," Stroud said.
But the hybrid isn't fully safe until the battery is disconnected.
"You've still got a boost factor of 500 volts," Stroud said, referring to a situation when the engine has shut down, but the batteries are still sending electricity through the cables.
In March, a hybrid vehicle crashed into a convenience store in Tacoma and caught fire. Firefighters extinguished the flames, but because they were worried the car was still energized, they called a local dealership to walk them through disconnecting the battery.
Safety is so important to Stroud, he's writing an emergency pocket guide for firefighters -- the first of its kind. Seattle firefighters will be the first in the nation to get the guide.
Reid says the risks are manageable, but that it's crucial to educate rescuers. "When seconds do count, it's a lot less scary if firefighters know what they're up against."
Tim Clark doesn't think it will be much of a problem for area firefighters.
"It's a challenge," he said, "but we like that kind of thing."
Story Published: May 10, 2007 at 11:16 PM PDT
Story Updated: May 11, 2007 at 11:36 AM PDT
By Michelle Esteban
Watch the story
SEATTLE -- Right now, 1.5 percent of all cars sold in the U.S. are hybrids, and in three years that number is expected to be six times higher. At some local dealerships they even have waiting lists for customers who want to purchase a hybrid vehicle.
But what makes these cars so desirable, is also creating an extra danger.
The problem starts right under the hood, where most hybrids have bright orange cables carrying high-voltage electricity between the batteries and engine. Those cables can be a hot zone for firefighters responding to collisions involving hybrids.
Emergency responders have an inherently hazardous job, but the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is adding to the potential dangers they face on a daily basis.
The risk of electrocution is very real.
"If it's not handled properly it's gonna kill you," said Seattle firefighter Tim Clark. "You have to understand what it is you're dealing with."
The combination gas-electric vehicles have up to 500 volts running through them, and can also pose a danger to passengers in a crash.
When firefighters are called to high-speed collisions, they often have to cut drivers and passengers out of the mangled vehicles.
But cut in the wrong place on a hybrid car before the battery is disconnected, and it could result in a lethal shock.
Clark says its just one more thing they have to think about when they're rushing to save lives. "If we don't spend a couple seconds on this, we could end up wishing we had," he said.
Camano Island / Stanwood Fire Chief Darin Reid said that because of the complex electrical systems found in hybrid cars, they don't always behave the same way in a crash as traditional vehicles.
"You could very well have a hybrid car moving while on fire," he said. And because the hybrid's electric motor is silent, firefighters can't always tell if it's running.
Reid said that if rescuers wrongly assume that the engine is off, one wrong move could launch the hybrid into drive, with the victim still inside and firefighters on or near the vehicle.
Fore the last seven years, Reid has been teaching everything he knows about hybrids to Washington firefighters. There are some standard do's and don'ts, but he reminds everyone that not all hybrids are the same. The electrical systems vary from one manufacturer to another.
"No company puts the wiring in the same spot," Reid said.
So, many fire departments often rely on the Internet when responding to crashes involving hybrid vehicles. It's not uncommon for firefighters to call up a manufacturer's web site so they can double-check the car's emergency response guidelines.
Matt Stroud, a safety instructor with Toyota, spends much of his time training firefighters on how to safely deal with a Prius at the scene of a crash.
Firefighters will often take field trips to area dealerships to practice disconnecting the car's electrical system.
"All hybrids, including the Prius, have a built-in safety system that's supposed to turn the car off if it's in a crash," Stroud said.
But the hybrid isn't fully safe until the battery is disconnected.
"You've still got a boost factor of 500 volts," Stroud said, referring to a situation when the engine has shut down, but the batteries are still sending electricity through the cables.
In March, a hybrid vehicle crashed into a convenience store in Tacoma and caught fire. Firefighters extinguished the flames, but because they were worried the car was still energized, they called a local dealership to walk them through disconnecting the battery.
Safety is so important to Stroud, he's writing an emergency pocket guide for firefighters -- the first of its kind. Seattle firefighters will be the first in the nation to get the guide.
Reid says the risks are manageable, but that it's crucial to educate rescuers. "When seconds do count, it's a lot less scary if firefighters know what they're up against."
Tim Clark doesn't think it will be much of a problem for area firefighters.
"It's a challenge," he said, "but we like that kind of thing."
Post by: K Frame on May 16, 2008, 09:31:09 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 09:32:53 AM
There is, of course, another aspect of hybrids and even moreso, all-electric cars that people haven't taken into account much.
They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.
They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.
That is, until they get training, which they should all have by now.
Wife's dad, brother, and at least one cousin are firefighters. I work with a guy who's hazmat trained and is the volunteer equiv of "Chief".
None of them consider hybrids a big deal anymore.
Chris
Post by: Brad Johnson on May 16, 2008, 09:34:04 AM
Quote
But is your $8k replacement cost correct (I think that number is from the early days of hybrids)? Batteries are as low as $725 shipped from Ebay, and about $3k elsewhere.
That was the number being bandied about last year. I haven't checked it lately.
If the cost was half the number I used, that takes the total fuel cost to $11.25 cents per mile. That's a 32.89 mpg equivalent, still well within the realm of most modern mid-sized sedans.
Brad
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 09:37:23 AM
Quote
But is your $8k replacement cost correct (I think that number is from the early days of hybrids)? Batteries are as low as $725 shipped from Ebay, and about $3k elsewhere.
That was the number being bandied about last year. I haven't checked it lately.
If the cost was half the number I used, that takes the total fuel cost to $11.25 cents per mile. That's a 32.89 mpg equivalent, still well within the realm of most modern mid-sized sedans.
Brad
I did some poking around. If you can even find a number, it's in the $3k range, but with most hybrids still under warranty, few folks have had to pay out of pocket yet.
Chris
Post by: Manedwolf on May 16, 2008, 09:48:40 AM
There is, of course, another aspect of hybrids and even moreso, all-electric cars that people haven't taken into account much.
They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.
They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.
That is, until they get training, which they should all have by now.
Wife's dad, brother, and at least one cousin are firefighters. I work with a guy who's hazmat trained and is the volunteer equiv of "Chief".
None of them consider hybrids a big deal anymore.
Chris
Should. Judging by articles like that, in some places they haven't.
And it's the driver's problem, if they've got to be stuck injured in a crashed hybrid while an uneducated responder team is browsing the manufacturer's website. (!)
Sounds like you have to roll the dice as to if they'll have had training or not.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 16, 2008, 10:01:31 AM
2nd: Training for special circumstances is required all the time. This time it might be your hybrid, next time it might be something else. I was adviced to avoid a certain material for my deck when discussing it with my firefighter coworker because it burned in such a way to make water almost useless when extinguishing it. If the responding trucks didn't have foam, they would have to use almost all their water on just the deck alone. He was going to set up some special training to determine the best way to fight fires involving this material.
Doesn't matter what you do, you're always in danger of finding yourself in a situation First Responders might not be trained for...
Chris
Post by: GigaBuist on May 16, 2008, 04:12:17 PM
IIRC, 2008 fuel efficiency standards appear SHARPLY lower than 07 and before, even for the same model vehicle, due to adjustments to the testing procedure.
Yep. The tests try harder to actually duplicate how the average driver drives, which is pretty poor in terms of fuel efficiency. That's one nice thing about the Prius I drove once: it graphs out what your fuel economy is in 5 minute averages and you can kind of turn it into a game.
Post by: JohnBT on May 16, 2008, 05:40:29 PM
Heck, I'm driving an '06 Avalon and get a solid 27 -27.5 mpg with the cruise control set on 72 and my foot punching it up to 80 frequently, even going up the mountain. If I stick to a straight 65 mph or so with only a little hard passing I can get 30-32 mpg on regular.
Big roomy car, 268-hp, and 0-60 in 6.4 seconds according to the car magazines, although I've never timed it. And the Yaris gets 35 mpg? Big whoop.
Three folks at work have a Prius and they don't get anywhere near the claimed mileage.
John
P.S. - And to the guy driving the Prius on I-81 in the left lane - MOVE OVER, the 21 cars behind you have been trying to get by for the last 3 miles.
Post by: thebaldguy on May 17, 2008, 04:57:47 PM
We don't drive the Jeep much any more. It's a winter toy for snow and when both of us need to drive somewhere.