Post by: ssn vet on May 23, 2008, 03:44:51 AM
I knew about most of the earlier kingdoms, but not the various Islamic conquests. Little gap in my history lessons?
I am NOT trying to stir the pot...but that it probably unavoidable.
If the U.N. robbed the Palestinian people of their "state" when Israel was established. What form of government did that state have? Who was it's leader?
I'm not trying to be provocative, though that's probably unavoidable. Rather I'm trying to understand what the basis for the Palestinian claim to "their" land is, as it appears that they have always been a ruled people, with one overlord suplanting another. I don't see that they ever had independance or were a legitimate state.
I certainly question the right of the U.N. (as voice of the "international community") to doll out states to this ethnic group or that.
Click on the map, it's pretty interesting....
-----------
Click on this link and you'll find an animated map of Middle East -
5000 years in 90 seconds.
This is an amazing, constantly changing map of the Middle East,
European, North Africa and Asian region, illustrating how various
"empires" have risen and fallen in the past 5000 years.
http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf
--------
I am now donning my fire retardant cover alls
Post by: Nitrogen on May 23, 2008, 04:46:23 AM
Read up on the UN Partition plan for Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
If they had agreed, they'd have had an Arab state already. It'd have looked like this:
The Arabs said no to this, and started killing Jews on the day after the vote.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 23, 2008, 04:54:24 AM
Something not a lot of people realize...
Read up on the UN Partition plan for Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
If they had agreed, they'd have had an Arab state already. It'd have looked like this:
The Arabs said no to this, and started killing Jews on the day after the vote.
Read up on the UN Partition plan for Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
If they had agreed, they'd have had an Arab state already. It'd have looked like this:
The Arabs said no to this, and started killing Jews on the day after the vote.
SS will be along presently to deliver the CAIR-revised version.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on May 23, 2008, 04:59:53 AM
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 23, 2008, 05:01:41 AM
Post by: ssn vet on May 23, 2008, 05:05:48 AM
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That map kinda missed the whole WWII event
The animated map ony shows the rise and fall of empires that conquered Palestine (Israel).
interestingly enough, WWII didn't seem to go there.
I'm not a history prof., but I'm not aware of any German action in Palestine.
Palestine was under English occupation after WWI saw the demise of the Ottoman Turks, but Palestine was apparently not very significant to the Nazi's.
Post by: Sindawe on May 23, 2008, 05:11:45 AM
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I don't see that they ever had independance or were a legitimate state.
Does one need to be part of a "legitimate state" (what ever THAT is) to lay claim to a plot of land? Maybe I'm the odd bird out, but I risk to differ. Certainly having a state helps defend the claim, but one has it by right of long occupation over generations and having roots and ties to that plot of land.
Something the Arabs in the region now known as Israel seem to have conveniently forgotten is that Jewish residency there extends far back into antiquity. Unless they are claiming to be decedents of the ancient Cannanites, who themselves occupied land claimed by others.
Post by: Balog on May 23, 2008, 05:34:59 AM
Post by: Harold Tuttle on May 23, 2008, 05:58:30 AM
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The Arabs took the side of the Axis, either overtly like Iraq or indirectly by withholding support for the Allies. Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini issued a fatwa- "summons to a holy war against Britain" in May 1941. The Mufti's widely heralded proclamation against Britain was declared in Iraq, where he was instrumental in "the pro-Nazi" Iraqi revolt of 1941.
In the 1930s, the fascist regimes that arose in Italy and Germany sought greater stakes in the Middle East, and began courting Arab leaders to revolt against their British and French custodians. Among their many willing accomplices was Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini, who fled Palestine after agitating against the British during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. He found refuge in Iraq another British mandate where he again topped the British most wanted list after helping pull the strings behind the Iraqi coup of 1941. The revolt in Baghdad was orchestrated by Hitler as part of a strategy to squeeze the region between the pincers of Rommel's troops in North Africa, German forces in the Caucuses and pro-Nazi forces in Iraq. However, in June 1941 British troops put down the rebellion and the Mufti escaped via Tehran to Italy and eventually to Berlin
In the 1930s, the fascist regimes that arose in Italy and Germany sought greater stakes in the Middle East, and began courting Arab leaders to revolt against their British and French custodians. Among their many willing accomplices was Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini, who fled Palestine after agitating against the British during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. He found refuge in Iraq another British mandate where he again topped the British most wanted list after helping pull the strings behind the Iraqi coup of 1941. The revolt in Baghdad was orchestrated by Hitler as part of a strategy to squeeze the region between the pincers of Rommel's troops in North Africa, German forces in the Caucuses and pro-Nazi forces in Iraq. However, in June 1941 British troops put down the rebellion and the Mufti escaped via Tehran to Italy and eventually to Berlin
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 23, 2008, 06:43:28 AM
Something the Arabs in the region now known as Israel seem to have conveniently forgotten is that Jewish residency there extends far back into antiquity. Unless they are claiming to be decedents of the ancient Cannanites, who themselves occupied land claimed by others.
For the Nth time.
The people who are launching the Kassams and sending the suicide bombers are PALESTINIANS. They are not Israeli Arabs. They are not IN Israel. Israel does not WANT their silly land. Israel does not CLAIM Gaza or the West Bank is ISraeli territory.
ISraeli Arabs are NOT Palestinians, and most of them would be offended if you said otherwise.
Grrr.
Post by: Tallpine on May 23, 2008, 07:10:36 AM
Some "Arabs" accepted and at least a few were even elected to parliament. Their standard of living is about 10x that of neighboring Arab states, but a number of Palestinian Arabs decided to get pissy and become outlaws.
Is that not true ...?
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 23, 2008, 07:14:09 AM
The Israeli-Arabs sit inside the Line.
They have blue Israeli national ID's, just like me. They vote. Some of them vote for the retarded 'Arab parties' (I call them retarded because their MK's make utterly insane pronouncements on the Knesset floor), others vote for the regular Labour, Meretz, and even (gasp!) Likud. The Arab that's sitting in the cabinet now (I don't remember his name) is in Kadima.
Post by: Tallpine on May 23, 2008, 07:27:08 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 23, 2008, 07:44:47 AM
Okay, so the "Palestinians" are just pissy because they don't like their neighbor
And because they don't have independence. THe way this worked is that while we didn't claim the land, we still wanted to administer it, run it, settle it, etc. THe idea was that at a later moment, when future negotiations would inevitably be held with the Arab would, we would be able to annex large chunks because "hey, our people are already on it."
Now we are in a situation where the Army still claims the power to give orders to people inside the West Bank, set up roadblocks to prevent people from traveling internally, etc., and the settlers are still around, too. Of course, we can't just leave and let the place be, because it'll be overrun by terrorists, or so the argument goes.
At this stage, no ISraeli outside the settlers or the really nationalist right wants to hold on to that area.
Judging by polls and election results, I think most of us would just rather we could let the Palestinians be independent, we would let them go and they would leave us alone.
It keeps not working out because most people don't trust the Palestinians to be willing or able to abide by such a deal. Can't blame people for not trusting the Palestinians, really.
Post by: ssn vet on May 23, 2008, 08:58:27 AM
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we would let them go and they would leave us alone
lilke they have in Gaza?
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 24, 2008, 04:12:37 AM
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we would let them go and they would leave us alone
lilke they have in Gaza?
Exactly the problem.
Post by: taurusowner on May 24, 2008, 08:57:21 AM
Post by: 280plus on May 24, 2008, 10:33:37 AM
Post by: MillCreek on May 24, 2008, 10:53:30 AM