Post by: RaspberrySurprise on May 30, 2008, 10:44:10 PM
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Several dozen Montana politicians, including Secretary of State Brad Johnson, have adopted an unconventional take on the Second Amendment case currently before the U.S. Supreme Court: Theyve threatened secession. D.C. v. Heller, the first substantive Second Amendment case the Court has heard in nearly 70 years, could definitively settle whether the right to bear arms is an individual right or a collective right.
In a joint resolution, the Montana politicians argue that when Washington approved the state constitution, including a clause granting any person the right to bear arms, upon the Treasure States entry into the Union in 1889, the federal government recognized that clause as consistent with the Second Amendment. If the Court comes down on the side of a collective right, they argue, it would breach the compact for statehood between Montana and the federal government.
Some speak of a living constitution, the meaning of which may evolve and change over time, supporters of the resolution explain on their website. However, the concept of a living contract, one to be disregarded or revised at the whim of one party thereto, is unknown. Therefore, they argue, A collective rights holding in Heller would not only open the Pandoras box of unilaterally morphing contracts, it would also poise Montana to claim appropriate and historically entrenched remedies for contract violation. Said remedies include opting out of its breached compact with the federal governmentin other words, seceding from the Union.
In a joint resolution, the Montana politicians argue that when Washington approved the state constitution, including a clause granting any person the right to bear arms, upon the Treasure States entry into the Union in 1889, the federal government recognized that clause as consistent with the Second Amendment. If the Court comes down on the side of a collective right, they argue, it would breach the compact for statehood between Montana and the federal government.
Some speak of a living constitution, the meaning of which may evolve and change over time, supporters of the resolution explain on their website. However, the concept of a living contract, one to be disregarded or revised at the whim of one party thereto, is unknown. Therefore, they argue, A collective rights holding in Heller would not only open the Pandoras box of unilaterally morphing contracts, it would also poise Montana to claim appropriate and historically entrenched remedies for contract violation. Said remedies include opting out of its breached compact with the federal governmentin other words, seceding from the Union.
From http://www.reason.com/news/show/126063.html
Post by: Manedwolf on May 30, 2008, 11:02:23 PM
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on May 30, 2008, 11:36:20 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 31, 2008, 02:34:25 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on May 31, 2008, 05:51:44 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on May 31, 2008, 05:55:42 AM
Post by: zahc on May 31, 2008, 08:24:14 AM
Post by: 41magsnub on May 31, 2008, 10:42:13 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on May 31, 2008, 12:30:15 PM
Hell no, stay out. Too many new people already. Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...
You will be assimilated. You will wake up to see endless new McMansion suburbs. You will have the HomeDepotLowesBestBuyCircuitCityTargetWalMartApplebeesFridaysChilisCVSWalgreensRiteAid sprawl. It Is Inevitable.
Post by: nico on May 31, 2008, 12:39:40 PM
Post by: El Tejon on May 31, 2008, 01:50:00 PM
Post by: 41magsnub on May 31, 2008, 02:38:46 PM
Hell no, stay out. Too many new people already. Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...
You will be assimilated. You will wake up to see endless new McMansion suburbs. You will have the HomeDepotLowesBestBuyCircuitCityTargetWalMartApplebeesFridaysChilisCVSWalgreensRiteAid sprawl. It Is Inevitable.
I hate you so much.
Post by: MechAg94 on May 31, 2008, 05:28:11 PM
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on May 31, 2008, 06:42:58 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on May 31, 2008, 09:43:04 PM
So if their original statehood agreement is null, would that mean they secede or just revert back to a federal territory?
Ooh, burn!
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 31, 2008, 11:52:18 PM
Hell no, stay out. Too many new people already. Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...
You will be assimilated. You will wake up to see endless new McMansion suburbs. You will have the HomeDepotLowesBestBuyCircuitCityTargetWalMartApplebeesFridaysChilisCVSWalgreensRiteAid sprawl. It Is Inevitable.
And wht, precisely, is wrong with that?
I find this picture BEAUTIFUL.
Post by: Bigjake on June 01, 2008, 06:20:19 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 01, 2008, 06:34:45 AM
cookie cutter housing, Micro. It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful
The universally same businesses as well. It's become less and less worthwhile to travel anywhere, because everywhere is becoming the same as everywhere else. California is Texas is Ohio is Florida is Massachusetts is Washington is Virginia is Kansas. You can literally stand outside one of these big-box blight areas of six-lane treeless streets, with cookie cutter housing beyond, and have absolutely no idea where in the country you are. Because they're all the same. So are the same restaurants with the same menus and the same decor, wherever you go, there you are in the same place you left. Add to that the big box stores are built for a specific purpose, so if they close, they're not suited to any other purpose and tend to remain as a blight of vacant boxes. A lot of people don't like it at all.
The ironic thing is that people flee from it, then demand the conveniences, it all arrives again nearly overnight, and they flee again. I wish they'd figure out what they're running from.
Post by: Perd Hapley on June 01, 2008, 06:45:07 AM
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the same restaurants with the same menus and the same decor,
But ApplebeesTGIFridaysChilis has all those quaint, unique little bits of retro Americana.
Is that stuff even real, or just made in China and antiqued?
Post by: Manedwolf on June 01, 2008, 06:53:23 AM
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the same restaurants with the same menus and the same decor,
But ApplebeesTGIFridaysChilis has all those quaint, unique little bits of retro Americana.
Is that stuff even real, or just made in China and antiqued? They have purchasers who get retro stuff from salvage and antique dealers, they have warehouses of it, and ship it to new restaurants being built with an arranger to fasten it to shelves. Some things are old and easily available like old lanterns and appliances, others are mass-produced reproductions, and the posters and stuff come from corporate, there was an article about that a while back. Cracker Barrel does the same, there's over 500 of those now, and they have a whole warehouse of farm tools, reproduction retro ads, tin signs, and deactivated shotguns to put above the mantlepiece. Applebees, for their faux neighborhood marketing, also does a standard "local" thing where the waiting lobby area has some images obtained from the local library or hall of records of the area's history, and there might be a few pennants from local teams.
I went in a Home Goods for something a while back, and saw a nonworking, Chinese-made antiqued replica of a 1930's American fan meant as shelf decor. So yeah, even the antiques up where you can't see them that closely are often nonfunctional props now.
Post by: Hugh Damright on June 01, 2008, 07:09:07 AM
When I think of the things that the feds have done to the South, even in my lifetime ... for these folks in Montana to threaten secession over a ruling on DC gun laws makes me question their judgement. And if the day should come when Montana is really abused, with the feds sticking their nose into their intrastate affairs, legislating from the bench, and the NG and even the military is sent in to Montana to dominate them ... then welcome to the club.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 01, 2008, 08:11:58 AM
cookie cutter housing, Micro. It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful
They're HOUSES.
With LAWNS.
That don't cost a goddamn fortune.
People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.
Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.
Post by: El Tejon on June 01, 2008, 09:00:46 AM
Next, he'll start frothing at the mouth about transfats.
Post by: 41magsnub on June 01, 2008, 09:08:04 AM
cookie cutter housing, Micro. It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful
They're HOUSES.
With LAWNS.
That don't cost a goddamn fortune.
People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.
Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.
USA =/= Israel
The big complaint is the unrestricted growth and the soulless nature of these areas. The box stores kill the small stores which used to be part of the character of a town. Nobody who lived here before urbanization thinks it is a good thing. The neighborhood hardware store is gone, the corner grocery store is gone, the small sporting goods store is gone, the unique neighborhoods with character of their own are gone.
There is a way to do growth and keep some character, building square miles of identical houses is not it.
For housing costs, they were a lot less than before the flood of folks came in with their higher incomes from CA jacking up the prices on land here. Do they have a right to do that? Sure, does not mean we have to like it.
Post by: RevDisk on June 01, 2008, 10:54:36 AM
Montana isn't going to pull out of the union. Just rattle the saber a bit. Still, it's a good showing of support. My state's constitution has a very strongly worded right to bear arms clause. PSP generally ignores it when possible. Philly routinely tries to violate the state and federal constitution, as well as the UFA.
They're HOUSES.
With LAWNS.
That don't cost a goddamn fortune.
People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.
Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.
With LAWNS.
That don't cost a goddamn fortune.
People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.
Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.
The per capita income for Israel is $33,299, which is pretty respectable. What is the limiting factor on housing? Water scarcity? Taxation? Government management of property?
Quote
The big complaint is the unrestricted growth and the soulless nature of these areas. The box stores kill the small stores which used to be part of the character of a town. Nobody who lived here before urbanization thinks it is a good thing. The neighborhood hardware store is gone, the corner grocery store is gone, the small sporting goods store is gone, the unique neighborhoods with character of their own are gone.
Thing is, no one puts a gun to folks heads to make them buy from big box stores. I generally avoid them if possible. Not for any reason besides quality concerns and bad service.
Post by: 41magsnub on June 01, 2008, 11:44:56 AM
Thing is, no one puts a gun to folks heads to make them buy from big box stores. I generally avoid them if possible. Not for any reason besides quality concerns and bad service.
I don't disagree with that at all, does not mean I have to like it.
Post by: RevDisk on June 01, 2008, 12:39:59 PM
Thing is, no one puts a gun to folks heads to make them buy from big box stores. I generally avoid them if possible. Not for any reason besides quality concerns and bad service.
I don't disagree with that at all, does not mean I have to like it.
I know. And I agree with ya. Problem is that the small shops generally cannot compete on prices. And that's what most people care about, short term gain. They don't look at the cost of poor quality on a long enough time scale. Another problem is that sometimes small shops don't realize they need to compete on quality and service, as it's the only advantages they have in their favor. Not all, not even most, but too large a percentage just try to enact protectionism (ban the big box stores from our neighborhood, zoning laws, et al) without trying to compete on merit alone.
Post by: Gewehr98 on June 02, 2008, 03:19:10 PM
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So should we all move to Montana?
The sheep with the red "X" marks painted on their sides kick real hard...
Post by: Manedwolf on June 02, 2008, 06:33:24 PM
Another problem is that sometimes small shops don't realize they need to compete on quality and service, as it's the only advantages they have in their favor. Not all, not even most, but too large a percentage just try to enact protectionism (ban the big box stores from our neighborhood, zoning laws, et al) without trying to compete on merit alone.
If they're a niche market, they can definitely compete on some things if they're wise. Gun stores come to mind. A lot of dusty-overpriced-guns places fuss that Wal-Mart is putting them out of business, but they're putting themselves out of business. One I know of, besides lots of classics and milsurps, seems to have gotten import contracts for some guns and ammo. They move a lot of Saigas as well as new import ammo, the latter for cheaper than Wal-Mart's ammo. It brings people in the door. They realize that people have access to the web, so they don't price things higher than you can find them on the web.
And a lot of people will still pay a little more if they recieve prompt and attentive service in any sort of store. It's when someone goes in a small store and recieves the same bored indifference as a big box that they see no reason to return to it.
Post by: charby on June 03, 2008, 06:33:16 AM
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So should we all move to Montana?
The sheep with the red "X" marks painted on their sides kick real hard...
I read that to my wife last night and she LHFAO.
Post by: Balog on June 03, 2008, 08:53:40 AM
Quote from: MW
And a lot of people will still pay a little more if they recieve prompt and attentive service in any sort of store. It's when someone goes in a small store and recieves the same bored indifference as a big box that they see no reason to return to it
Amen! Way too many gunstores are less store and more hang out spot for cranky old men. Some of the places I've been to have treated me with just short of outright hostility as soon as I walked in.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 03, 2008, 09:01:34 AM
Quote from: MW
And a lot of people will still pay a little more if they recieve prompt and attentive service in any sort of store. It's when someone goes in a small store and recieves the same bored indifference as a big box that they see no reason to return to it
Amen! Way too many gunstores are less store and more hang out spot for cranky old men. Some of the places I've been to have treated me with just short of outright hostility as soon as I walked in.
I always wonder how that kind pays the rent.
There's gunstores two near work, one useless, one good. One I gave up on, it was like that, and they never sold anything, all overpriced and covered with dust, quite literally covered with dust. The other, I can see how they stay in business. Piles of Saigas arrive, piles of Saigas are gone. Piles of Mosin-Nagants arrive, piles of Mosins go. Plus they're friendly and don't look at you funny if you pick up the $3000 rifles, as long as you pick them up properly. (They were shooting each other with airsoft MP40's last time I was in there, too.)
Post by: seeker_two on June 03, 2008, 01:14:57 PM
Post by: Tallpine on June 03, 2008, 03:38:53 PM
I don't want to move to Montana.....can't they just come to Texas and help us run off all the Yankees?....maybe bring a few mountains to block off Austin with?.....
We got our own "Yankees" to deal with - only they call them "Californians"
Post by: LAK on June 27, 2008, 08:18:38 PM
Post by: 41magsnub on June 27, 2008, 09:16:48 PM
Any published reaction to the Heller ruling from the legislature in Montana?
Haven't seen that yet, but Sen. John Tester made at least one of the main articles about it saying it was great, forget if it is was CNN, MSNBC, or what. He and Rehburg are pretty good on gun control, need to watch Baucus since he was the swing vote on the last AWB though generally he is on our side.
Post by: freakazoid on June 28, 2008, 06:27:40 AM
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(They were shooting each other with airsoft MP40's last time I was in there, too.)
lol, sounds like my kind of gun store,
It is nice to find one where the people are great. When I find one that is the store that I do business with even if they may be a little more than the other, or at least with a certain employee if they are great.