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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MicroBalrog on June 04, 2008, 02:35:47 AM

Title: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 04, 2008, 02:35:47 AM
McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too


If elected president, Senator John McCain would reserve the right to run his own warrantless wiretapping program against Americans, based on the theory that the president's wartime powers trump federal criminal statutes and court oversight, according to a statement released by his campaign Monday.
McCain's new tack towards the Bush administration's theory of executive power comes some 10 days after a McCain surrogate stated, incorrectly it seems, that the senator wanted hearings into telecom companies' cooperation with President Bush's warrantless wiretapping program, before he'd support giving those companies retroactive legal immunity.

As first reported by Threat Level, Chuck Fish, a full-time lawyer for the McCain campaign, also said McCain wanted stricter rules on how the nation's telecoms work with U.S. spy agencies, and expected those companies to apologize for any lawbreaking before winning amnesty.

But Monday, McCain adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin, speaking for the campaign, disavowed those statements, and for the first time cast McCain's views on warrantless wiretapping as identical to Bush's.

Quote
[N]either the Administration nor the telecoms need apologize for actions that most people, except for the ACLU and the trial lawyers, understand were Constitutional and appropriate in the wake of the attacks on September 11, 2001. [...]

We do not know what lies ahead in our nations fight against radical Islamic extremists, but John McCain will do everything he can to protect Americans from such threats, including asking the telecoms for appropriate assistance to collect intelligence against foreign threats to the United States as authorized by Article II of the Constitution.

The Article II citation is key, since it refers to President Bush's longstanding arguments that the president has nearly unlimited powers during a time of war. The administration's analysis went so far as to say the Fourth Amendment did not apply inside the United States in the fight against terrorism, in one legal opinion from 2001.

McCain's new position plainly contradicts statements he made in a December 20, 2007 interview with the Boston Globe where he implicitly criticized Bush's five-year secret  end-run around the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
"I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is," McCain said.

The Globe's Charlie Savage pushed further, asking , "So is that a no, in other words, federal statute trumps inherent power in that case, warrantless surveillance?" To which McCain answered, "I don't think the president has the right to disobey any law."

McCain's embrace of extrajudicial domestic wiretapping is effectively a bounce-back from Fish's comments, made at the Computers, Freedom and Privacy conference in Connecticut last month.  When liberal blogs picked up the story that McCain had moved to the left on wiretapping, the McCain campaign issued a letter insisting that he still supported unconditional immunity, as well as new rules that would expand the nation's spy powers.
The campaign's response was consistent with McCain's past positions and votes. But it riled Andrew McCarthy at the conservative National Review Online, who read the campaign's position as a disavowal of Bush's warrantless wiretapping program, and a wimpy surrender of executive power to Congress.
"What does it mean when he says Sen. McCain does not want the telecoms put into this position again?" McCarthy asked. "Is he saying that in a time of national crisis, the president should not be permitted to ask the telecoms for assistance that is arguably beyond what is prescribed in a statute?"'

That's when the campaign issued the letter explaining McCain's new views of executive power, and revealing that McCain would, in certain future circumstances, rely on the same theory of executive power in wartime.

A spokesperson for McCain's camp did not respond to a request Monday for an explanation of the difference between the new policy and the December interview.

Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: xavier fremboe on June 04, 2008, 02:39:06 AM
Not to thread jack, but that picture makes him look like Saul Tigh from BSG.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Finch on June 04, 2008, 04:17:12 AM
We're in good hands with shepherds like these.... rolleyes
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Sindawe on June 04, 2008, 04:26:19 AM
I'd rather the Office of President be held by a fraking alcoholic toaster than that man.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 04, 2008, 04:27:02 AM
Seriously.  Worst.  Election.  Ever.*






(Not literally/historically.  I don't want all you history buffs jumping down my friggin throat.  I just wanted to be comic book guy for a second.)
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Standing Wolf on June 04, 2008, 05:59:11 AM
Quote
We're in good hands with shepherds like these....

Yepas long as we figure it makes good sense to ask the coyotes to guard the hen house.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Manedwolf on June 04, 2008, 06:04:43 AM
So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: agricola on June 04, 2008, 06:54:43 AM
So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?

Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Ben on June 04, 2008, 06:59:09 AM
Okay, that's just damn funny!  laugh
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: ilbob on June 04, 2008, 07:35:24 AM
Congress has approved the so called WOT. maybe they did not call it a declaration of war, and the constitution does not provide for a specific form such a declaration would need to follow. so let us say a state of war exists between the USA and Islamic terrorists. this is not a far fetched or unique idea. back in the early 1800s England and her allies declared war on Napoleon, but not on France. there would appear to be ample precedent that a declaration of war does not need to be against a specific state.

Since a state of war exists, it would seem to give the commander in chief substantial powers. there is a LOT of precedent for expanded presidential power during wartime. FDR was far more offensive in his abridgment of rights then Bush even dreams of. And many of those offenses were aimed right at American citizens, as opposed to illegal combatants who are not American citizens.

I am not real thrilled with some of what has been going on, but it is a small subset of what has gone on in every war we have been in since day 1.

Heck, Hillary spied on American citizens via their FBI files. No one cared because she only spied on Republicans, as opposed to terrorists.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: longeyes on June 04, 2008, 07:59:32 AM
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So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?

We'll have plenty of time to unpack American history when we're all either on an island somewhere or in prison.

In a word, though: apathy.  America was designed to be a hands-on republic manned by an active, informed, and responsible citizenry.  Too many Americans have handed their nation over to "experts" with agendas or imbruted themselves with increasing hedonic consumerism. None of this happened by accident.  We built it brick by brick over forty years.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: xavier fremboe on June 04, 2008, 08:03:12 AM
Quote
So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?

We'll have plenty of time to unpack American history when we're all either on an island somewhere or in prison.

In a word, though: apathy.  America was designed to be a hands-on republic manned by an active, informed, and responsible citizenry.  Too many Americans have handed their nation over to "experts" with agendas or imbruted themselves with increasing hedonic consumerism. None of this happened by accident.  We built it brick by brick over forty years.
  The victor gets to write the history.  If we're on an island, I'd say that we don't get the final edit.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Gewehr98 on June 04, 2008, 08:14:33 AM
Umm, it's not illegal to spy on American citizens.

Agencies must abide by the rules of the Intelligence Oversight Law passed in 1974, which are pretty straightforward.

I'd wager our restrictions here are considerably tighter than what the Mossad would do... 
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 04, 2008, 08:39:10 AM
Umm, it's not illegal to spy on American citizens.

Agencies must abide by the rules of the Intelligence Oversight Law passed in 1974, which are pretty straightforward.

I'd wager our restrictions here are considerably tighter than what the Mossad would do... 

The Mossad has no jurisdiction within Israel. Further, Israel was not founded on the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it was founded on the values of collectivist socialism.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: seeker_two on June 04, 2008, 10:15:37 AM
So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?



Best. Agricola. Post. Ever.   police
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: Finch on June 04, 2008, 10:46:39 AM
I'd wager our restrictions here are considerably tighter than what the Mossad would do... 

Doesn't make it right. I still like the idea of warrants and impartial overt courts.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: LAK on June 05, 2008, 01:06:20 AM
Quote
So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?
It's called the Hegelian Dialectic.

Works eh.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: xavier fremboe on June 05, 2008, 04:34:42 AM
Quote
So how did the arguably most important position in the world come to be up for grabs between a pandering Republican Lite and an empty-suit hardcore Marxist?
It's called the Hegelian Dialectic.

Works eh.
I only hope we're at the 'thesis' stage.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 06, 2008, 01:56:35 PM
I wouldn't get too enthusiastic about that, John.  You have to get elected first.
Title: Re: McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 07, 2008, 05:40:01 AM
I wouldn't get too enthusiastic about that, John.  You have to get elected first.

Because when Obama will be elected, he'll be so much better.