Post by: MillCreek on June 17, 2008, 08:40:36 AM
What with the price of gas and whatnot these days, I have been thinking about a larger (250 cc and up) motor scooter. Although this would be more expensive than the equivalent motorcycle, it would be easier for me to ride with the business suit and briefcase. It is about ten miles one way from the house to the office, and I have the option of either the freeway or surface streets. I would still probably be primarily a fair-weather rider.
I just signed up for the mid-September MSF basic course, since I figure that a refresher cannot hurt. If I do decide to buy a large scooter, I will of course buy the helmet and road-rash clothing again.
Any thoughts on scooter brands and models are welcome. I can already say that I am not going the eBay or cheap PRC-manufactured model route. I would probably be looking at Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kymco. The European models such as Vespa are not what I would be looking for from a styling or size perspective.
Thanks for any ideas, and I am not really thinking about buying a large sport motorcycle or the like.
Post by: Firethorn on June 17, 2008, 08:53:28 AM
Given your description, you might want to consider some of the electric scooters out there. The more powerful ones that can get up to ~45mph aren't badly priced. You'd get the benefit of reduced maintenance and even cheaper fuel.
Of course, I was looking at a $8-10k electric motorcycle with a 75 mile range@45. Mostly because I have further to go and go faster, as most of my route is highway.
I'm waiting to complete the course before I start looking more at buying a bike.
Post by: MillCreek on June 17, 2008, 09:38:42 AM
Not to mention that with all the hills in the Seattle area, anything under 250 cc. simply cannot stay up with traffic even on surface streets while going up a hill. I see these little 50 cc scooters that can only go 40 mph on the flat, and slow down to 15 or less on a hill. Even the 125 and 150 cc scooters slow down to what I think are dangerous speeds on a hill here. I would be looking at something that could hold 45 mph on a hill while carrying 200 lbs payload. When I have chatted with some people at the local motorcycle shops, they think that 250 cc would be the minimum. I have noticed that for scooters, 250, 400 and 500 cc seem to be the only engine sizes available at 250 cc and over.
Post by: Firethorn on June 17, 2008, 10:13:51 AM
Those are the bikes rated at 75 miles@45mph.
Don't forget, if you can get ahold of an outlet at work, they'll be up to 80% charge in a couple hours.
Post by: MillCreek on June 17, 2008, 11:04:03 AM
So for large scooters, it seems that only the Suzuki Burgman, Honda Silver Wing, Yamaha Majesty and TMax are all that are available from the Big Three manufacturers. That would be 400, 600, 395 and 499 cc, respectively. Wow, I had not realized my choices were so narrow.
Post by: Ryan in Maine on June 17, 2008, 11:22:15 AM
For 250cc scooters, I like Honda's Reflex series. So far I haven't checked out any other companies though. Honda's Silver Wing series is awesome too, if you want to break the bank.
I'm actually interested in the Honda Ruckus for a scooter since I live in a small town. I don't have to worry about going faster than 30mph and 100mpg would save me a lot of money.
Post by: bedlamite on June 17, 2008, 12:04:22 PM
Post by: Larry Ashcraft on June 17, 2008, 12:33:31 PM
I've always felt much safer on a big, flashy and loud motorcycle. Also, with larger wheels and tires the centrifugal forces make the bike much more stable at speed.
My Honda would get between 50 and 60 MPG.
Post by: Bogie on June 17, 2008, 01:01:54 PM
Post by: Leatherneck on June 17, 2008, 01:55:05 PM
Does the cost of gas now or in the next year really justify spending $6,000 to $10,000 on a new ride?
Other factors aside, such as enjoying a two-wheeler, parking ease, etc., it seems to me that avoiding purchasing new wheels is also a reasonable approach to dealing with $4-5 per gallon gas.
TC
Post by: MillCreek on June 17, 2008, 02:25:26 PM
Post by: MillCreek on June 17, 2008, 02:27:42 PM
Anything out there with an automatic? Bone spurs in/around my left ankle pretty much make me cringe at the thought of a buncha shifting. And I don't wanna do a suicide...
From my research, I think that almost all the motor scooters currently sold in the USA have a continuously variable transmission, and as such, all you do is twist the throttle and go. There are no clutches or shift levers. Certainly all the large scooters I was looking at have a CVT.
Post by: Firethorn on June 17, 2008, 04:43:32 PM
For me, there would also be the fun factor. Similar to how I enjoy bicycling. On a strict cost-effectiveness basis, there is no way I could justify buying something at that price level, given that I would only be riding it half the year. The savings on gas would still lead to a pretty long pay-back period, in my view.
Looking for the fun factor as well.
Post by: garyk/nm on June 17, 2008, 06:30:32 PM
Post by: MillCreek on June 17, 2008, 06:50:38 PM
Post by: MillCreek on June 18, 2008, 05:58:04 AM
Post by: coppertales on June 18, 2008, 06:29:17 AM
Post by: tokugawa on June 18, 2008, 06:57:00 AM
Post by: MillCreek on June 18, 2008, 07:05:32 AM
Post by: Firethorn on June 18, 2008, 07:54:13 AM
Now, with the gasoline crunch you can actually make the case that a motorcycle or scooter is much more economical, so more people are moving into them. This has swamped supply. It'll be a while before they retool and have them.
I know I've seen a lot more around than I did four years ago.
Post by: mgdavis on June 18, 2008, 12:00:06 PM
Like everything else, bigger has become better. It's the same reason that we don't get all the micro-cars that are available in Europe and Asia. Blame it on Tim "The Toolman" Taylor and his ilk: "More power" has become the call of the American consumer.
Post by: charby on June 18, 2008, 12:05:27 PM
Post by: Brad Johnson on June 18, 2008, 12:12:17 PM
Brad
Post by: Antibubba on June 18, 2008, 06:39:09 PM
Quote
I just got back from the local Suzuki/Honda/Kawasaki dealership. A 2008 Burgman 400 is going for about $ 6000 and they only had one. Ay caramba! The salesrep also said that Honda has stopped making the Reflex series in 2007. The only large scooter made by Honda anymore is the Silver Wing series. Yamaha has stopped making the Morpheus.
So for large scooters, it seems that only the Suzuki Burgman, Honda Silver Wing, Yamaha Majesty and TMax are all that are available from the Big Three manufacturers. That would be 400, 600, 395 and 499 cc, respectively. Wow, I had not realized my choices were so narrow.
So for large scooters, it seems that only the Suzuki Burgman, Honda Silver Wing, Yamaha Majesty and TMax are all that are available from the Big Three manufacturers. That would be 400, 600, 395 and 499 cc, respectively. Wow, I had not realized my choices were so narrow.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding about what you want, but what is it you'll be doing with a scoot that can't be accomplished with 150 or 250cc?
I've been pricing scooters lately, and looking at the MSF course. The Kymco 150s are about $2600. The Bajaj are a bit lower.
Quote
seems like the scooters manufactured in the PRC seem to enjoy a fairly low reputation. Geely and Janon are two of the best known brands, and reliability, parts and service seem to be a nightmare. I have read a lot of posts from people who bought them via eBay and complain a lot when they need work
The local scooter guy says he'll service any scooter that wasn't made in China. He has some of the Bajaj, which are made in India. Can you imagine how bad the PRC bikes must be when Indian technology is greatly superior?
Post by: MillCreek on June 18, 2008, 06:51:42 PM
Post by: mgdavis on June 18, 2008, 06:59:03 PM
Post by: tokugawa on June 18, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Models up to 500 cc. The Suzuki burgman is cool too.
I do not know what to expect for fuel economy from a scooter, but a lightweight motorcycle will do 50-70 mpg.
Post by: LAK on June 19, 2008, 01:50:23 AM
Post by: LAK on June 19, 2008, 02:14:50 AM
Aprilia make a pretty nice scooter.
Don't know if these are available stateside;
Quote
Maxis, on the other hand, are a different breed. Bigger and more powerful than your typical scooter, the maxi is designed to take the advantages of the twist & go scooter such as convenience, carrying capacity, ease of use and miserly fuel economy and extend them into motorcycle territory by adding the ability to comfortably travel outside city limits, either one or two-up
http://www.scootersales.com.au/News-169-maximum-overdrive.aspxOne consideration about scooters though; the small wheel diameter makes for less stability than a motorcycle with large diameter wheels. Consider a motorcycle with a four-stroke twin in the 400 to 500cc class; enough HP and torque for most roads and loads, along with good fuel economy. I would go for something like a Suzuki GS500
Post by: Firethorn on June 19, 2008, 03:24:29 AM
There seems to be a major hole: lots of 50 cc, a few 125 cc by Yamaha, and then it goes up to a minimum of 400 cc with the Suzuki. If I am overlooking any reputable brands and models, please let me know.
I think the deal is that 50cc doesn't require a motorcycle license in many areas; so from a regulatory standpoint they're a 'sweet spot'.
125cc is good for anything in a city - 45mph or so. People wishing for highway speed capability probably trade up to the 400cc a lot.
50cc - 25mph
125cc - 45 mph, 2.5 times the displacement.
400cc - 75 mph, 3.2 times the displacement. A 250 might be a relative 'dog' at highway speeds, and it might not be 'that much' money for the extra power.
Post by: mgdavis on June 19, 2008, 07:11:56 AM
Post by: Nick1911 on June 19, 2008, 07:17:34 AM
1. It's a Honda - in general they make good stuff.
2. 250cc is small and light enough to get good fuel economy and my maneuvrable.
3. It will hold 65mph and it totally interstate legal.
4. You can get them pretty cheap used (Don't know if that's still true.)
Post by: Marnoot on June 19, 2008, 07:26:47 AM
Personally; I'd stick with a Honda CB250.
1. It's a Honda - in general they make good stuff.
2. 250cc is small and light enough to get good fuel economy and my maneuvrable.
3. It will hold 65mph and it totally interstate legal.
4. You can get them pretty cheap used (Don't know if that's still true.)
1. It's a Honda - in general they make good stuff.
2. 250cc is small and light enough to get good fuel economy and my maneuvrable.
3. It will hold 65mph and it totally interstate legal.
4. You can get them pretty cheap used (Don't know if that's still true.)
+1. I'm riding my sister-in-law's Rebel 250 for the summer, which isn't much different than the Nighthawk, maybe a bit more upright riding position. I weigh ~160 and it has enough power to merge into traffic, and while not an ideal freeway bike, can certainly maintain freeway speeds. It's perfect for my mostly surface street, just a bit of freeway (if I so choose) commute. A bigger bike would just get worse fuel mileage, which is about the only reason I'm riding and considering buying my own next year. If I had to do a lot of freeway driving I might consider moving up to the smallest Honda Shadow; but for my commute the 250 is perfect.
Post by: MillCreek on June 19, 2008, 07:37:28 AM
Post by: mgdavis on June 19, 2008, 07:57:28 AM
Post by: MillCreek on June 19, 2008, 08:12:09 AM
Also of note, there is an Aprilia dealer close by to me, so service and parts should not be too bad. Ride Motorsports in Woodinville carries them.
Post by: Antibubba on June 19, 2008, 08:40:42 PM
Quote
One consideration about scooters though; the small wheel diameter makes for less stability than a motorcycle with large diameter wheels. Consider a motorcycle with a four-stroke twin in the 400 to 500cc class; enough HP and torque for most roads and loads, along with good fuel economy. I would go for something like a Suzuki GS500.
Here's my biggest problem with motorcycles: They're better than I am.
I'm 42, and I've never ridden a motorcycle in my life. My reflexes aren't shot, but they aren't what they were when I was 20, either. Even a 250 cc motorcycle can take me onto the highway. The biggest question is, do I belong on the highway? If I need to get on the highway, I'd much rather do it whilst inside a vehicle. A scooter, OTOH, has fairly well-defined limitations. The Kymco 150 has "55 mph" on the speedometer, but I'm sure it would be a long trip there from 45 mph. So, if I'm on a scooter, I don't get on the highway.
Yes, I understand that city driving is statistically more perilous than highway, and maybe this scooter thing for me is a bad idea. I don't know, but that's why I'm going to take a safety class before I commit any green.
Post by: LAK on June 20, 2008, 12:23:37 AM
Certainly statistically more scooter and motorcycle accidents happen off the highways as opposed to on them. My own experiences bear this out. I've covered countless thousands of miles on about a half dozen big bikes - commuting to work, short trips, long trips and touring. Three collisions in about ten years; all at less than 50 mph on minor or city roads.
First was an off-duty german cop who made a U-turn in front of me at night on a city street, second was an "escaped" sheep in farm country, third was a man with family on a minor road near an intersection who tried to swing a quick U-turn, didn't clear the curb and abruptly "appeared" in front of me "parked" as it were across the lane. It is possible, perhaps arguable, I could have avoided all three had I been excercizing more caution. Riding a scooter in all three instances would not have helped me.
One general cause of motorcycle (and scooter) collisions are; vehicle operator "fails to see" motorcyclist. This can be when the vehicle was turning, overtaking, changing lanes etc or when entering an intersection from a "yield" sign or other right of way control, crossing a major road from a minor road, etc etc. Your best ally therefore is your senses; observation and caution. The safety class is a very good idea.
I would take the class, and try out a few motorcycles and scooters and see which you feel more comfortable with.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on June 20, 2008, 03:16:09 AM
[ig]http://premium1.uploadit.org/docZox//800px-VentureOne_crop75.jpg[/img]
Post by: Tuco on June 20, 2008, 04:02:59 AM
Post by: Firethorn on June 20, 2008, 04:57:20 AM
the future will have some interesting options:
That's a three wheel car, not a motorcycle.
But it would be a neat commuter if it wasn't that they're looking at it costing more than a honda civic.
Review
Quote
We truly would like to believe, though, that the VentureOne will in fact, as its creators promise, be released in late 2008, priced in the $20,000 range. If that is indeed remotely possible, then the VentureOne is big news.
Post by: Tallpine on June 20, 2008, 06:08:17 AM
IIRC, the manufacturers were offering to buy back the old 3-wheelers because so may people (kids!) were flipping them and possibly suing the makers.
Post by: Larry Ashcraft on June 20, 2008, 06:17:12 AM
Just put one foot down while you're rolling...
Post by: Bogie on June 20, 2008, 07:23:32 PM
I figure a scooter is more "transport."
FWIW, I've seen -several- of the 2-in-front, 1-in-back motorcycle dealies around here lately... Kinda fun looking....
Post by: MillCreek on June 20, 2008, 08:06:24 PM
My research on eBay and CycleTrader demonstrated that the typical selling price of that model at that mileage was $ 4200-4800. I shared this with the owner and offered to split the difference and do a deal at $ 4500. I will go get a certified check tomorrow morning at the bank and then pick it up from him tomorrow night.
Post by: bedlamite on June 20, 2008, 08:19:47 PM
Post by: Otherguy Overby on June 20, 2008, 09:37:02 PM
So, do take an MSF course.
Now, about the crashing stuff, "laying 'er down" is rarely a good option. Why crash to avoid a crash. Besides what stops quicker something on tires or freshly waxed paint and chrome?
Post by: MillCreek on June 20, 2008, 09:40:41 PM
Post by: LAK on June 20, 2008, 10:51:19 PM
Post by: MillCreek on June 21, 2008, 07:09:59 AM
500 lbs? Good grief, my bare bones GL1000 weighed only 100 lbs more. I am surprized.
I know! By way of comparison with other maxi-scooters, the Yamaha TMax comes in at 489 pounds, the Honda Silver Wing at 540 pounds, the Piaggio X9 comes in at 469 pounds and the Suzuki Burgman 650 comes in at 522 pounds. All that bodywork really packs on the pounds compared to a naked bike. But in comparison to a touring model, the maxi scooters compare well.
Post by: mike on June 21, 2008, 07:19:39 AM
Post by: MillCreek on June 21, 2008, 08:01:35 AM
Post by: Silver Bullet on June 21, 2008, 08:26:51 AM
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/529/0/home.aspx
but it's only 49cc. It's also only $2100.
My wife was trying to talk me into getting her a scooter, until I did the math and showed her that it would cost more (price of scooter amortized over ten years, insurance) than she would save in gasoline, for what she was planning to do with it: use it as a second vehicle to make short trips to the store; she was still keeping her car.
Post by: Tallpine on June 21, 2008, 08:42:46 AM
Quote
My wife was trying to talk me into getting her a scooter, until I did the math and showed her that it would cost more (price of scooter amortized over ten years, insurance) than she would save in gasoline, for what she was planning to do with it: use it as a second vehicle to make short trips to the store; she was still keeping her car.
Get her a wheelbarrow instead
Post by: Silver Bullet on June 21, 2008, 09:06:59 AM
Quote
My wife was trying to talk me into getting her a scooter, until I did the math and showed her that it would cost more (price of scooter amortized over ten years, insurance) than she would save in gasoline, for what she was planning to do with it: use it as a second vehicle to make short trips to the store; she was still keeping her car.
Get her a wheelbarrow instead
Post by: Brad Johnson on June 21, 2008, 11:51:01 AM
Get her a wheelbarrow instead
A regular wheelbarrow or a tactical wheelbarrow?
Brad
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 21, 2008, 01:49:03 PM
Post by: Tallpine on June 21, 2008, 01:59:53 PM
Get her a wheelbarrow instead
A regular wheelbarrow or a tactical wheelbarrow?
Brad
Depends on the neighborhood, I reckon ...
Post by: LAK on June 22, 2008, 02:18:06 AM
Quote
I know! By way of comparison with other maxi-scooters, the Yamaha TMax comes in at 489 pounds, the Honda Silver Wing at 540 pounds, the Piaggio X9 comes in at 469 pounds and the Suzuki Burgman 650 comes in at 522 pounds. All that bodywork really packs on the pounds compared to a naked bike. But in comparison to a touring model, the maxi scooters compare well.
That's alot of bodywork; how many do they sleep?
Post by: Monty on June 22, 2008, 08:57:17 AM
GENERAL INFORMATION
Manufacturer Yamaha
Model Year 2009
Model Zuma 125
MSRP $2,999.00
Engine SOHC, 4-valve, 4-stroke single
Cooling Forced-air
Displacement 125 cc
Bore x Stroke 52.4 x 57.9 mm
Carburetion Electronic fuel injection
Compression Ratio 10:1
Clutch Dry centrifugal automatic
Final Drive V-belt
Transmission Automatic
Suspension Front: 27 mm telescopic forks
Rear: Dual shock
Brakes Front: 220 mm disc
Rear: Drum
Tires Front: 120/70-12 51L
Rear: 130/70-12 56L
Length 75.2 in.
Width 30.1 in.
Height 43.8 in.
Seat Height 30.7 in.
Wheelbase 50.8 in.
Miles Per Gallon (MPG) 88 mpg
Fuel Capacity 1.6 gal.
Colors Two-tone Team Yamaha Blue / White, Raven, Bright Yellow
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/608/0/home.aspx
Monty
Post by: MillCreek on June 22, 2008, 09:01:47 AM
Post by: Monty on June 22, 2008, 09:43:32 AM
I had actually thought about the new Zuma 125. It is expected to be in the dealerships by September or so. I asked our local dealership about it, and he said they were likely going to sell for about $ 3200 or so list price. More than MSRP. Apparently, several people have already put down deposits, and over half of their first shipment was already spoken for. If they made it in 250 cc, I would be all over it.
Saw a post over on Adventure Rider forum where a guy was quoted ~$4700 out the door for one. I'm sure the supply is limited but still....
Would like something closer to the 250-400cc range myself, I'm a big guy.
Monty
Post by: Matthew Carberry on June 22, 2008, 09:49:39 AM
The two guys I've really noticed though seem a little "off". They are wearing full racing leathers with matching helmets, color coordinated with the bike.
Running WOT, leaning into corners on those little tires... at a certain point it seems they should have just gotten a motorcycle. Unless there's a international scooter racing circuit I'm not aware of.
Post by: MillCreek on June 25, 2008, 12:27:28 PM
I can already tell it was a good decision to get this scooter with 460 cc of displacement as opposed to a smaller urban scooter. When I was out on the highway going up a hill, I was close to being boxed in by a couple of dump trucks while I was already going 55 mph. A good twist of the throttle and the bike powered me right out of there. A 250 cc scooter/motorcycle would not have been able to do that.
PS: and the digital readout says that I am getting between 57 and 62 miles per gallon.
Post by: Boomhauer on June 25, 2008, 04:47:54 PM
Quote
FWIW, I've seen -several- of the 2-in-front, 1-in-back motorcycle dealies around here lately... Kinda fun looking....
Sounds like the Bombardier Spyder
I like the look of the Campagna T-Rex
Post by: MillCreek on June 25, 2008, 05:07:39 PM
Quote
FWIW, I've seen -several- of the 2-in-front, 1-in-back motorcycle dealies around here lately... Kinda fun looking....
He is probably referring to the Piaggio MP3: http://www.piaggiousa.com/pscooters/mp3.cfm
Currently being sold in 250, 400 and 500 cc displacement.
Post by: Boomhauer on June 25, 2008, 05:11:34 PM
Post by: mgdavis on June 25, 2008, 05:13:51 PM
The riders I know of in this area are you, Tokugawa, myself, and Balog.
Post by: Tallpine on June 25, 2008, 05:45:38 PM
