Post by: Bigjake on June 19, 2008, 01:49:50 AM
anybody else want to venture a guess? If we were all close in meatspace, I'd say 5 bucks gets you a guess, closest wins, and if the truce actually went unbroken, we donate the money to
Post by: Nitrogen on June 19, 2008, 03:35:31 AM
My, you're an optimist.
btw, totally unrelated, but made me think:
Post by: Manedwolf on June 19, 2008, 03:55:02 AM
Post by: Nitrogen on June 19, 2008, 04:15:02 AM
If you don't play the victim card, people might see how corrupt you are, and how bad of a deal you're giving the people, and they might not decide to support you anymore.
Post by: Bigjake on June 19, 2008, 04:32:10 AM
Not true.
If you don't play the victim card, people might see how corrupt you are, and how bad of a deal you're giving the people, and they might not decide to support you anymore.
If you don't play the victim card, people might see how corrupt you are, and how bad of a deal you're giving the people, and they might not decide to support you anymore.
Or if you stop acting like immature barbaric animals, helos wouldn't rain death on the house that you're causing said mischief from, and there wouldn't be any "Innocent women and children slaughtered by EEEVIL warmongers!!".
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 19, 2008, 04:32:53 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 19, 2008, 04:35:43 AM
Not all the people the IDF shoots at are terrorists.
Yes. Because Hamas likes to put rocket launchers atop occupied structures, then blame Israel when a strike on the rocket launcher kills people below it.
It's called "human shields". They're even proud of it.
Post by: Bigjake on June 19, 2008, 04:38:04 AM
Not all the people the IDF shoots at are terrorists.
Sometimes innocents die because the folks around them fight dirty.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 19, 2008, 04:39:14 AM
For example, the IDF recently shot up a car with two Israeli security guards on it. And by shot up I mean "put several hundred rifle rounds into the front of the car, and then called in aerial support."
More importantly, Palestinians often try to illegally cross the border, to work, to steal, or to attack soldiers (outside Hamas, various minor groups also dabble in these activities).
Either way, they sometimes get shot up. As they damn well should.
So scenario:
Palestinian approaches border fence, Army shoots him a few dozen times once he's within ten meters of the fence. Hamas cries foul and makes with the rocket launches. We all return to stage A.
Post by: Bigjake on June 19, 2008, 04:44:05 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 19, 2008, 04:46:44 AM
lousy cycle to be stuck in, but whose fault is that?
Amazingly enough, Bigjake, while obviously the Hamas are bad guys, I don't hold the view that the Palestinians in general are to blame.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 19, 2008, 06:23:26 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 19, 2008, 06:43:02 AM
lousy cycle to be stuck in, but whose fault is that?
Amazingly enough, Bigjake, while obviously the Hamas are bad guys, I don't hold the view that the Palestinians in general are to blame.
And when someone sets up a rocket launcher in their neighborhood, do they:
A) Go out en masse and push it over and yell at the Hamas people to go away
B) Take out a rifle and shoot the people setting it up before the return fire kills their neighbors
C) Do absolutely freaking NOTHING, quite often in tacit or even blatant support?
Post by: Desertdog on June 19, 2008, 08:10:18 AM
Quote
I'm giving it less than 2 weeks before the Palis see something they just can't resist shooting at/mortaring/blowing up, and then blaming it on the Izzies.
It is more like, how soon they can re-arm, get better arms, set up better hiding places and more fortified positions.We must remember they have only been after the Israelies for about 4000 years, and is not likely to change their mind now.
Post by: Scout26 on June 19, 2008, 09:36:48 AM
Post by: Bigjake on June 19, 2008, 12:14:41 PM
lousy cycle to be stuck in, but whose fault is that?
Amazingly enough, Bigjake, while obviously the Hamas are bad guys, I don't hold the view that the Palestinians in general are to blame.
I'm responding to your scenario there dude.
Pali does something stupid/illegal/ both at a border fence, and gets darwined for his trouble. Hamas considers lobbing mortars at random at civilians a measured response??
Maned nailed it, Palestinians in general ARE the problem. When you vote the badguys into power, you're partly to blame when they do badguy things.
Post by: De Selby on June 19, 2008, 02:45:18 PM
lousy cycle to be stuck in, but whose fault is that?
Amazingly enough, Bigjake, while obviously the Hamas are bad guys, I don't hold the view that the Palestinians in general are to blame.
I'm responding to your scenario there dude.
Pali does something stupid/illegal/ both at a border fence, and gets darwined for his trouble. Hamas considers lobbing mortars at random at civilians a measured response??
Maned nailed it, Palestinians in general ARE the problem. When you vote the badguys into power, you're partly to blame when they do badguy things.
It's not always about being near the border fence:
Sometimes the rockets get lobbed in retaliation for IDF troops shooting a 9 year old girl, or blowing up a family on the beach.
So the retaliation isn't always predicated on IDF shootings of criminals; sometimes it's predicated on IDF killings of little girls and families.
Post by: Scout26 on June 19, 2008, 03:03:10 PM
lousy cycle to be stuck in, but whose fault is that?
Amazingly enough, Bigjake, while obviously the Hamas are bad guys, I don't hold the view that the Palestinians in general are to blame.
I'm responding to your scenario there dude.
Pali does something stupid/illegal/ both at a border fence, and gets darwined for his trouble. Hamas considers lobbing mortars at random at civilians a measured response??
Maned nailed it, Palestinians in general ARE the problem. When you vote the badguys into power, you're partly to blame when they do badguy things.
It's not always about being near the border fence:
Sometimes the rockets get lobbed in retaliation for IDF troops shooting a 9 year old girl, or blowing up a family on the beach.
So the retaliation isn't always predicated on IDF shootings of criminals; sometimes it's predicated on IDF killings of little girls and families.
Ahh yes, those poor innocent Palistinian families playing at the beach when a carload of IDF soliders does a drive-by......
Post by: Bigjake on June 19, 2008, 03:25:48 PM
Post by: grampster on June 19, 2008, 04:03:43 PM
The five of us were on a coaster and two young men of middle eastern descent were in the car behind us. I remember when the ride was over, my brother and I both were yucking it up about the two young men who along with the rest of us had been noisily enjoying the ride. The young men were ululating in the customary stereotypical movie Arab fashion.
We both humorously remarked that we were lucky the ride did not blow up.
Thirty four years later, nothing much has changed regarding stereotypes and who goes around blowing up people and things with strap on explosives.
Post by: taurusowner on June 19, 2008, 04:41:28 PM
The only thing that can solve this is if internal pro-peace elements of Hamas take over the organization and eliminate and punish those who continue attacks.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 19, 2008, 04:58:51 PM
It's not always about being near the border fence:
Sometimes the rockets get lobbed in retaliation
So the retaliation isn't always predicated on IDF shootings of criminals; sometimes it's predicated on
FTFY.
The only thing that can solve this is if internal pro-peace elements of Hamas take over the organization and eliminate and punish those who continue attacks.
Being that one of Hamas' principal goals itself is wiping Israel off the map, how's that work again?
Post by: De Selby on June 19, 2008, 05:11:28 PM
lousy cycle to be stuck in, but whose fault is that?
Amazingly enough, Bigjake, while obviously the Hamas are bad guys, I don't hold the view that the Palestinians in general are to blame.
I'm responding to your scenario there dude.
Pali does something stupid/illegal/ both at a border fence, and gets darwined for his trouble. Hamas considers lobbing mortars at random at civilians a measured response??
Maned nailed it, Palestinians in general ARE the problem. When you vote the badguys into power, you're partly to blame when they do badguy things.
It's not always about being near the border fence:
Sometimes the rockets get lobbed in retaliation for IDF troops shooting a 9 year old girl, or blowing up a family on the beach.
So the retaliation isn't always predicated on IDF shootings of criminals; sometimes it's predicated on IDF killings of little girls and families.
Ahh yes, those poor innocent Palistinian families playing at the beach when a carload of IDF soliders does a drive-by......
Yes, that this has happened is actually well documented.
That doesn't mean that every Hamas rocket attack is the result of attacks on innocent people or little kids; only some of them.
The first suicide bombing campaign, for example, was in response to the 1994 massacre by Baruch Goldstein in Hebron. Of course later suicide bombing campaigns were for other reasons, but that was what Hamas was retaliating for in the first time.
The situation is much more complicated than "palistinians evil, israelis angels"
Post by: roo_ster on June 24, 2008, 04:24:57 AM
JERUSALEM - Police say two Palestinian rockets hit southern Israel and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office says the cease-fire that took effect last week has been broken.
ADVERTISEMENT
Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says the first rockets to hit since the truce landed in an open area and no one was hurt. There's no word on how Israel will react.
There has been no claim of responsibility for the rocket attack, which occurred hours after Israeli troops killed two Palestinians in a West Bank raid.
The West Bank is not formally part of the Gaza truce. But the Israeli raid could be perceived as violating the spirit of the cease-fire.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
JERUSALEM (AP) Palestinians fired a mortar into southern Israel in the first violation of a fragile truce between Israel and Gaza Strip militants, the military said Tuesday.
No casualties or damage were reported in the attack, which took place around midnight Monday, and troops did not retaliate, the military said. No militant faction immediately took responsibility.
The Egyptian-brokered truce went into effect on Thursday, with the immediate aim of ending fighting that has killed seven Israelis and more than 400 Palestinians many of them civilians since the Islamic Hamas militants overran Gaza a year ago.
It also obliges Israel to ease a punishing blockade of the coastal strip. In a final stage, the sides are to address Hamas' demand to reopen a major border passage between Gaza and Egypt and Israel's insistence that Hamas release an Israeli soldier it has held for two years.
Egypt acted as middleman for the six-month truce because Israel, like much of the international community, shuns Hamas for refusing to recognize Israel or renounce violence.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert flew to Egypt on Tuesday for talks with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. The leaders are expected to discuss efforts to release the soldier, Sgt. Gilad Schalit, and Israel's demand that Egypt crack down on arms smuggling into Gaza.
Olmert was quoted on Tuesday in the London-based Al-Sharq Al-Awsat daily as saying that if the smuggling of weapons into Gaza did not end, then Israel would consider the cease-fire agreement violated, and "then we will be compelled to military action."
The cease-fire is meant to avert an Israeli invasion of Gaza, a tiny, impoverished seaside territory of 1.4 million people that Israel evacuated in 2005 after a 38-year military occupation. The deal extends beyond Hamas to all militant groups operating in Gaza but does not include the West Bank.
Early Tuesday, Israeli troops killed a senior Islamic Jihad commander in a raid in the West Bank town of Nablus.
A neighbor said a Palestinian bystander was also shot to death by troops when he opened the door of his apartment during the raid. The Israeli military said the man was a militant killed during a gunbattle with troops.
Islamic Jihad said the commander of its northern West Bank operations, Tarek Juma, was killed in the operation.
Juma was targeted because he was planning an attack on Israel, said a military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, as is customary. The official said troops found explosive devices and munitions in his apartment at An Najah University.
Islamic Jihad vowed revenge.
"The reprisal for this noble blood will be in the depths of the Zionist entity, God willing," Islamic Jihad said in a statement from the West Bank.
In Germany, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad condemned the operation. Fayyad, whose government is trying to negotiate a peace deal with Israel, has said continuing military operations are undermining his efforts to restore law and order in the West Bank.
This was "an example of the kind of activity that has to stop and has to stop immediately and promptly if we are going to succeed in providing security to our people," said Fayyad, who is attending an international conference aimed at bolstering his security forces. "There was absolutely no exchange of information on this particular incident."
In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum accused Israel of trying to sabotage the truce.
"The resistance factions in the West Bank have the full right to respond to this crime," Barhoum said.
ADVERTISEMENT
Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says the first rockets to hit since the truce landed in an open area and no one was hurt. There's no word on how Israel will react.
There has been no claim of responsibility for the rocket attack, which occurred hours after Israeli troops killed two Palestinians in a West Bank raid.
The West Bank is not formally part of the Gaza truce. But the Israeli raid could be perceived as violating the spirit of the cease-fire.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
JERUSALEM (AP) Palestinians fired a mortar into southern Israel in the first violation of a fragile truce between Israel and Gaza Strip militants, the military said Tuesday.
No casualties or damage were reported in the attack, which took place around midnight Monday, and troops did not retaliate, the military said. No militant faction immediately took responsibility.
The Egyptian-brokered truce went into effect on Thursday, with the immediate aim of ending fighting that has killed seven Israelis and more than 400 Palestinians many of them civilians since the Islamic Hamas militants overran Gaza a year ago.
It also obliges Israel to ease a punishing blockade of the coastal strip. In a final stage, the sides are to address Hamas' demand to reopen a major border passage between Gaza and Egypt and Israel's insistence that Hamas release an Israeli soldier it has held for two years.
Egypt acted as middleman for the six-month truce because Israel, like much of the international community, shuns Hamas for refusing to recognize Israel or renounce violence.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert flew to Egypt on Tuesday for talks with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. The leaders are expected to discuss efforts to release the soldier, Sgt. Gilad Schalit, and Israel's demand that Egypt crack down on arms smuggling into Gaza.
Olmert was quoted on Tuesday in the London-based Al-Sharq Al-Awsat daily as saying that if the smuggling of weapons into Gaza did not end, then Israel would consider the cease-fire agreement violated, and "then we will be compelled to military action."
The cease-fire is meant to avert an Israeli invasion of Gaza, a tiny, impoverished seaside territory of 1.4 million people that Israel evacuated in 2005 after a 38-year military occupation. The deal extends beyond Hamas to all militant groups operating in Gaza but does not include the West Bank.
Early Tuesday, Israeli troops killed a senior Islamic Jihad commander in a raid in the West Bank town of Nablus.
A neighbor said a Palestinian bystander was also shot to death by troops when he opened the door of his apartment during the raid. The Israeli military said the man was a militant killed during a gunbattle with troops.
Islamic Jihad said the commander of its northern West Bank operations, Tarek Juma, was killed in the operation.
Juma was targeted because he was planning an attack on Israel, said a military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, as is customary. The official said troops found explosive devices and munitions in his apartment at An Najah University.
Islamic Jihad vowed revenge.
"The reprisal for this noble blood will be in the depths of the Zionist entity, God willing," Islamic Jihad said in a statement from the West Bank.
In Germany, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad condemned the operation. Fayyad, whose government is trying to negotiate a peace deal with Israel, has said continuing military operations are undermining his efforts to restore law and order in the West Bank.
This was "an example of the kind of activity that has to stop and has to stop immediately and promptly if we are going to succeed in providing security to our people," said Fayyad, who is attending an international conference aimed at bolstering his security forces. "There was absolutely no exchange of information on this particular incident."
In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum accused Israel of trying to sabotage the truce.
"The resistance factions in the West Bank have the full right to respond to this crime," Barhoum said.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 24, 2008, 04:27:00 AM
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Post by: taurusowner on June 24, 2008, 04:31:32 AM
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 11:48:47 AM
Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.
Wow-so you want to eliminate Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni, and most of the Israeli government!???~~~
Check out all these Israeli agencies that use the name Zionist:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/7/Herzl+and+Zionism.htm
The Department of Jewish Zionist Education in Israel might have a problem with this too:
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/aliyah3.html
I guess you want to "eliminate" the Prime Minister too, since he gave a speech to Zionist Congress:
http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Archive/Speeches/2006/06/speechkong200606.htm
Seriously....how can you comment on the doings of the Israelis and the Palestinians when you have no idea that Zionist is what the Israeli government calls itself???
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 11:49:28 AM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
Post by: Manedwolf on June 24, 2008, 11:50:47 AM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.
And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.
Post by: Nitrogen on June 24, 2008, 11:53:32 AM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
If the investigation takes longer than a month, and no arrests are made, yes.
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 11:54:04 AM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.
And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.
Palestinian civilians being killed is certainly daily-check out the numbers.
Like I said, anyone who reduces this to "IDF angels/Palestinians devils" is simply out of touch with reality. Hamas blows up old ladies at malls, the IDF blows up families on the beach and occassionaly shoots a 8-10 year old girl. There are innocent victims on every side of the war.
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 11:55:07 AM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
If the investigation takes longer than a month, and no arrests are made, yes.
Protestors are regularly shot without resulting investigations or arrests too.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 24, 2008, 12:31:26 PM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.
And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.
Palestinian civilians being killed is certainly daily-check out the numbers.
Like I said, anyone who reduces this to "IDF angels/Palestinians devils" is simply out of touch with reality. Hamas blows up old ladies at malls, the IDF blows up families on the beach and occassionaly shoots a 8-10 year old girl. There are innocent victims on every side of the war.
They're being killed because:
1. Hamas uses human shields and is proud of it.
2. Hamas' own firing in the air kills them.
I am beyond sick of you making excuses for the Hamas animals. Really sick of it. You enthusiastically excuse the inexcusable, and that makes you part of it.
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 12:42:55 PM
Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.
I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?
Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.
And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.
Palestinian civilians being killed is certainly daily-check out the numbers.
Like I said, anyone who reduces this to "IDF angels/Palestinians devils" is simply out of touch with reality. Hamas blows up old ladies at malls, the IDF blows up families on the beach and occassionaly shoots a 8-10 year old girl. There are innocent victims on every side of the war.
They're being killed because:
1. Hamas uses human shields and is proud of it.
2. Hamas' own firing in the air kills them.
I am beyond sick of you making excuses for the Hamas animals. Really sick of it. You enthusiastically excuse the inexcusable, and that makes you part of it.
Again, sometimes 1 and 2 are the case, but not always. Sometimes the IDF shoots little kids intentionally, for whatever reason, and other times it bombs recklessly.
That doesn't mean that every killing is as such, but certainly some killings are. Just like not every Hamas attack is aimed at civilians-they do attack uniformed soldiers too.
I'm not making excuses for Hamas-I'm responding to your claims that Israel is totally blameless for this state of affairs.
I think your problem is that you let your ideology substitute for truth-whatever you believe should be leads you to propagandize on behalf of the parties you view as supporting your ideology. They never do wrong. And the other side is always evil. Personally, I think an ideology driven worldview that takes no account of the facts is dangerous to civil society.
Post by: Bigjake on June 24, 2008, 12:59:46 PM
Quote
Again, sometimes 1 and 2 are the case, but not always. Sometimes the IDF shoots little kids intentionally, for whatever reason, and other times it bombs recklessly.
Documented Proof?? Thats what I thought....
Quote
That doesn't mean that every killing is as such, but certainly some killings are. Just like not every Hamas attack is aimed at civilians-they do attack uniformed soldiers too.
I'm sure you're right. Hamas has definitely attacked uniformed soldiers, by accident while mortaring civies.
Quote
I'm not making excuses for Hamas
Thats rich...
Quote
I think your problem is that you let your ideology substitute for truth-whatever you believe should be leads you to propagandize on behalf of the parties you view as supporting your ideology. They never do wrong. And the other side is always evil. Personally, I think an ideology driven worldview that takes no account of the facts is dangerous to civil society.
And I think given the knee jerk response you have to defending obvious evil every time it rears its head should get you a scholarship to the Correy school on palestinian culture
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 01:35:27 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16886-2004Nov27.html
Quote
"It's a little girl," a soldier watching from a nearby Israeli observation post cautioned over the military radio. "She's running defensively eastward. . . . A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."
Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated.
Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated.
There's one of the little girls that has been shot. There are others if you'd like proof of those too.
Here's an attack on uniformed troops:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/25/AR2007062500233.html
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on June 24, 2008, 03:20:18 PM
SS, tell me, do the terrorist acts Hamas commits occur on a regular basis, or are they a rare event?
Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare. Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):
Quote
Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated. The captain walked to the spot where the girl "was lying down" and fired two bullets from his M-16 assault rifle into her head, according to an indictment against the officer. He started to walk away, but pivoted, set his rifle on automatic and emptied his magazine into the girl's prone body, the indictment alleged
And *gasp*!! the Israeli's have INDICTED this individual for his crime. Does the palestinian gov't indict the terrorists that kill Israeli civilians?
Quote
As a result, the company commander -- identified by the army only as Capt. R -- was indicted this past week on charges of misuse of a firearm, ordering subordinates to lie about the shooting and violation of military regulations. In addition, the military moved to reexamine the investigation, which Yaalon conceded had been "a grave failure" and which the indictment alleged was the subject of an attempted coverup.
The shooting of the schoolgirl added to a growing number of incidents that have spurred Israeli soldiers to speak out about abuses of Palestinians, despite pressure from superiors in the field and statements by senior military officials playing down such cases. Last week, after troops provided photographic evidence to an Israeli newspaper, the military opened an investigation into allegations that soldiers desecrated the bodies of Palestinians killed during army operations.
The shooting of the schoolgirl added to a growing number of incidents that have spurred Israeli soldiers to speak out about abuses of Palestinians, despite pressure from superiors in the field and statements by senior military officials playing down such cases. Last week, after troops provided photographic evidence to an Israeli newspaper, the military opened an investigation into allegations that soldiers desecrated the bodies of Palestinians killed during army operations.
Post by: Phyphor on June 24, 2008, 03:51:27 PM
Post by: De Selby on June 24, 2008, 05:04:26 PM
Quote
SS, tell me, do the terrorist acts Hamas commits occur on a regular basis, or are they a rare event?
Regular basis.
Quote
Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare. Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):
They're actually not that rare-the vast majority of casualties in their bombings are not combatants.
The case against the killer of iman hams was eventually dropped, as are most terror/torture prosecutions against uniformed soldiers. Of course that's because some of them are innocent, but as with everything else in this conflict, that isn't always true. The Israelis are not as hard on political murderers as we are here in the states-there's even a big push to release the nut who shot Yitzak Rabin.
Post by: Biker on June 25, 2008, 07:27:46 AM
Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.
That's a harsh statement. Why do you feel this way?
Biker
Post by: Nitrogen on June 25, 2008, 10:07:34 AM
Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.
That's a harsh statement. Why do you feel this way?
Biker
Zionist is a term that has been stolen from its critics.
What Zionist really means, is a supporter of zionism.
Zionism is an international political movement that regards the Jews as a national entity and seeks to preserve that entity.
Now that's not bad, is it?
Post by: Manedwolf on June 25, 2008, 10:31:52 AM
Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.
That's a harsh statement. Why do you feel this way?
Biker
Zionist is a term that has been stolen from its critics.
What Zionist really means, is a supporter of zionism.
Zionism is an international political movement that regards the Jews as a national entity and seeks to preserve that entity.
Now that's not bad, is it?
We would also have to blow up Mormons.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on June 25, 2008, 11:07:15 AM
Quote
Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare. Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):
They're actually not that rare-the vast majority of casualties in their bombings are not combatants.
Have the Israelis ever tried to kill innocent civilians? It happens sometimes, due to accident or negligence or bad fortune, but is it ever intended?
How often do the various Palestinian terrorist groups deliberately try to kill innocent civilians? They target innocents as a matter of routine, right?
It seems to me that there is a clear difference between the two. Deliberately seeking to kill innocents is utterly indefensible. It amazes me that anyone could try to equate deliberate, premeditated murder with legitimate military operations that try to avoid innocent deaths wherever possible.
Post by: De Selby on June 25, 2008, 11:53:25 AM
Quote
Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare. Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):
They're actually not that rare-the vast majority of casualties in their bombings are not combatants.
Have the Israelis ever tried to kill innocent civilians? It happens sometimes, due to accident or negligence or bad fortune, but is it ever intended?
How often do the various Palestinian terrorist groups deliberately try to kill innocent civilians? They target innocents as a matter of routine, right?
It seems to me that there is a clear difference between the two. Deliberately seeking to kill innocents is utterly indefensible. It amazes me that anyone could try to equate deliberate, premeditated murder with legitimate military operations that try to avoid innocent deaths wherever possible.
Certainly there have been instances of intentional killing of civilians on the part of the Israelis-that is well documented. I would recommend reading Benny Morris's "Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" for the historical use of violence against Palestinian civilians by the IDF and its precursors.
The war in Lebanon was the most recent example: Dan Halutz specifically said that he would target civilians. "No where is safe", "he said, and then ordered millions of cluster bombs launched all over the south of the country. So it does happen-although not in the same proportion as the Palestinian groups do it.
I think it's true to say that a bigger percentage of Israeli attacks are aimed at military targets, but that both the Israelis and the Palestinians target civilians. And certainly in impact the Israelis are winning the contest-they've killed nearly 10 times more civilians than the Palestinians have. In my book, the results count as well as the intentions.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2008, 08:55:30 PM
Quote
Zionism is an international political movement that regards the Jews as a national entity and seeks to preserve that entity.
Classical Zionism, such as that espoused by Ben-Gurion and his buddies, also revolves around the importance of "Mamlachtiut" (statism) and socialism.
It is NOT a good thing.
Further, Zionism seeks to preserve the Jews by a particular method - by the creation of a nation-state for tem in what Christians and religious Jews call the Holy Land.