Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2008, 07:57:44 PM
Especially Manedwolf!
You have argued at the past that McCain is bad, but much, much better than Obama, and deserves to be the Republican candidate. I stated, at the past, that the GOP has made an error by not electing... anybody else as their nominee, and that thus, screwing it over by voting for a third-party candidate was worth it, because it would open the doors to a better GOP candidate later.
However, Obama's support for the "Fairness Doctrine" would change the balance terribly - talk radio, one of the key weapons in the struggle against Socialist Idiots And Their War on Everying Good and True, would be essentially destroyed by this. Freedom of speech is the key value. It's one of the great things America once brought to the world. Destroy that, and the light goes out in te last country it hasn't gone out yet.
Ladies and gentlemen, I hereby express my apologies for previously arguing with you, and hereby admit that those of you that can vote in the United States Presidential election in 2008, should likely vote for McCain (though I still don't think Barr is stupid or his voters are crazy. It's just there isn't enough of them.)
So yeah. You have all been right, and I was wrong on the McCain issue.
He's horrid. But Obama will swallow our souls.
Post by: lacoochee on June 25, 2008, 08:40:56 PM
Post by: Fjolnirsson on June 25, 2008, 08:58:17 PM
Post by: taurusowner on June 25, 2008, 09:15:48 PM
But as they say, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. McCain is what we have. It would do us good to think about the next 4 years first. For to even be allowed to be conservative in 2012 and 2016, we must get through these next 4 years. Our doom may be sealed, but we have a chance of at least putting it off for a while. I just wish there was some way to vote for McCain but still send him the message that we know he's a fool and we are only siding with him to be against Obama.
Now everyone go buy an AR or AK while they can
Post by: wmenorr67 on June 25, 2008, 10:02:31 PM
Don't let it happen again.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 04:08:58 AM
I know McCain absolutely sucks. He's a retread of stuff that never really worked.
But he IS survivable. Obama would blow the foundation out from under everything, and then wonder why the building fell down. By that point, it'd be too late, and we'd be a third-rate third-world, the Great Experiment would be filed away as "failure".
I do not want that to happen.
Now everyone go buy an AR or AK while they can
Trying to finish a FAL and get a Daewoo, actually. I want to get all the stuff I want in case the law makes it impossible to ever again and even makes it illegal to talk about them.
Post by: taurusowner on June 26, 2008, 04:13:04 AM
Post by: Wang on June 26, 2008, 04:33:37 AM
Post by: ilbob on June 26, 2008, 04:53:45 AM
I think an appropriate analogy would be McCain is like getting terminal cancer, Obama is like getting Ebola. You're gonna die either way. One will be drawn out, and you'll have some time to be with family and friends. But you'll never be as healthy as you are now. The other is going to turn you into a dead bloody pulp in a few days.
The way I see it a president Obama is either the destroyer of the US as anything even remotely like what we have had, or another ineffective Jimmy Carter style president who runs the place into the ground leading the electorate to select another Reagan to repair the damages.
Post by: roo_ster on June 26, 2008, 05:00:55 AM
It is easy to see how far McCain is from optimal. Gimme a minute or two to catalog the particulars and I can even work myself up into a froth of rage & dismay.
If I do vote for him*, it won't be in blindness to his faults. It will be a delaying action to give liberty-minded folks more time to rally. There is nothing dishonorable in that. It just requires acknowledging the imperfect system and sometimes-ugly reality.
Whether the GPMG vs 16" gun or terminal cancer vs ebola analogy is correct, both the GPMG & cancer give We the People a little more time with a little more liberty. And that is not something to turn your nose up at.
Many times I have been asked/ordered to perform a task with little or sub-optimal materials & resources. After working like heck to wrest the last few resources, I then proceed to "Do the best I can with what I've got to work with."
In this case, that means likely supporting McCain and making damn sure my Senators, Representative, and Governor know that their allegiance is to ME and my fellow citizens, not to McCain and his agenda.
* I use "if" because he could always stab me in the back, yet again, and drive me off into a rage against RINOS and their ilk.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 26, 2008, 06:07:31 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 26, 2008, 06:38:40 AM
Quote
Whether the GPMG vs 16" gun or terminal cancer vs ebola analogy is correct, both the GPMG & cancer give We the People a little more time with a little more liberty. And that is not something to turn your nose up at.
THis is true. But at some point, there is some deep moral surrender implicated by - not by voting to the lesser evil, but by persuading yourself you can never win. A deep, disturbing horror.
Post by: longeyes on June 26, 2008, 07:49:07 AM
Play this game one inning at a time.
Post by: seeker_two on June 26, 2008, 08:05:32 AM
I may put up with the illegals as long as I can keep my guns and religion.....
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 26, 2008, 08:30:46 AM
We've already seen one who will offer you all of your Constitutional rights, but apparently what wasn't all that great of a bargain.
T-shirts, beers, and late-plays it is. Sure, McCain stepped up to the plate! Way to go man! They need to clean up the field now, though.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 08:32:12 AM
Why don't you all just flock to the first candidate who offers you free beer and t-shirts?
We've already seen one who will offer you all of your Constitutional rights, but apparently what wasn't all that great of a bargain.
T-shirts, beers, and late-plays it is. Sure, McCain stepped up to the plate! Way to go man! They need to clean up the field now, though.
We've already seen one who will offer you all of your Constitutional rights, but apparently what wasn't all that great of a bargain.
T-shirts, beers, and late-plays it is. Sure, McCain stepped up to the plate! Way to go man! They need to clean up the field now, though.
I will vote for the candidate who will screw things up the least.
Because I live in the real world.
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 26, 2008, 08:35:53 AM
If we keep electing these people, making concession after concession, it will inevitably destroy America. McCain may slow it down a bit, but he'll still contribute to it, and in electing him we'll show those similar to him that they have the green light.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 08:38:40 AM
So, and this is an honest question, do you view America as a dying entity that you just want to make comfortable in its final throes?
If we keep electing these people, making concession after concession, it will inevitably destroy America. McCain may slow it down a bit, but he'll still contribute to it, and in electing him we'll show those similar to him that they have the green light.
If we keep electing these people, making concession after concession, it will inevitably destroy America. McCain may slow it down a bit, but he'll still contribute to it, and in electing him we'll show those similar to him that they have the green light.
No, I do not view it that way. I see its brightest days ahead of it. But we need a survivable "ick" to keep working, not a total socialist who will wreck it completely.
I'm sorry, but your approach is extremely naive. You don't remodel the house by bringing in an arsonist.
Your sort keeps thinking there will be a "revolution" if Obama is elected. There will not be. America will just fade into lukewarm euro-weeniness forever. Irrevocably.
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 26, 2008, 08:44:49 AM
However, if we elect McCain, does that not indicate that his type is electable? Won't the next candidate just be another McCain, which people will once more hold their nose for and elect?
You seem to assume that if we just survive this nasty Obama business, the bright and shining Republican President will emerge from the ranks and lead us into the future. But if we keep feeding the snakes, they're just going to breed more snakes.
I realize that I may be very naive. I am young, and continually discover things I was naive about in the past. But I'm striving to see your point, and I'm not quite seeing it as viable.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 08:47:37 AM
We'll be something different. A third-world EU partner or something, with all the appropriate loss of free speech rights and cultural rules inherent in such a thing.
And that will be the new America. I do not think you realize the danger yet.
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 26, 2008, 08:49:20 AM
Post by: seeker_two on June 26, 2008, 10:08:12 AM
Post by: Finch on June 26, 2008, 10:33:33 AM
Time for what? Is there some revolution planned that I don't know about? What are we waiting for, what are we buying time for? Because next election, we will be faced with this very situation again, and again we will vote for the lesser of two evils. And slowly but surely, our freedoms will be stripped away by the lesser of the two. Nothing will change. This buying of time by voting for McCain, the only thing you are buying is a different way to watch this country crumble.....
I feel bad for this nation. Its greatest threat comes not from abroad, but from its own citizens....
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 26, 2008, 10:37:54 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 10:45:33 AM
I just don't get it. People say that if we vote for McCain, even if he is just as horrible for this country as Obama, we get more time.
Time for what? Is there some revolution planned that I don't know about? What are we waiting for, what are we buying time for? Because next election, we will be faced with this very situation again, and again we will vote for the lesser of two evils. And slowly but surely, our freedoms will be stripped away buy the lesser of the two. Nothing will change. This buying of time by voting for McCain, the only thing you are buying is a different way to watch this country crumble.....
I feel bad for this nation. Its greatest threat comes not from abroad, but from its own citizens....
Time for what? Is there some revolution planned that I don't know about? What are we waiting for, what are we buying time for? Because next election, we will be faced with this very situation again, and again we will vote for the lesser of two evils. And slowly but surely, our freedoms will be stripped away buy the lesser of the two. Nothing will change. This buying of time by voting for McCain, the only thing you are buying is a different way to watch this country crumble.....
I feel bad for this nation. Its greatest threat comes not from abroad, but from its own citizens....
And WHAT is your alternative?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
Post by: Balog on June 26, 2008, 10:54:53 AM
So, and this is an honest question, do you view America as a dying entity that you just want to make comfortable in its final throes?
If we keep electing these people, making concession after concession, it will inevitably destroy America. McCain may slow it down a bit, but he'll still contribute to it, and in electing him we'll show those similar to him that they have the green light.
If we keep electing these people, making concession after concession, it will inevitably destroy America. McCain may slow it down a bit, but he'll still contribute to it, and in electing him we'll show those similar to him that they have the green light.
No, I do not view it that way. I see its brightest days ahead of it. But we need a survivable "ick" to keep working, not a total socialist who will wreck it completely.
I'm sorry, but your approach is extremely naive. You don't remodel the house by bringing in an arsonist.
Your sort keeps thinking there will be a "revolution" if Obama is elected. There will not be. America will just fade into lukewarm euro-weeniness forever. Irrevocably.
You might wanna read up on a coupla guys named Carter and Reagan......
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 11:04:49 AM
Post by: Finch on June 26, 2008, 11:38:14 AM
Quote
And WHAT is your alternative?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
I never said I had another solution, and I don't. But I don't need one to know that this one sucks. It just seems to me that so many people are willing to just bend over and accept McCain without giving true thought to the damage that the whole "lesser of two evils mentality" is doing to our country. Fine you think McCain is less worse than Obama, I disagree (I think they both are equally horrible), but whatever. What about next election? And the election after that? We keep getting progressively worse. At what point will we ever stop voting for the least worse?
Post by: Manedwolf on June 26, 2008, 11:54:55 AM
Quote
And WHAT is your alternative?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
I never said I had another solution, and I don't. But I don't need one to know that this one sucks. It just seems to me that so many people are willing to just bend over and accept McCain without giving true thought to the damage that the whole "lesser of two evils mentality" is doing to our country. Fine you think McCain is less worse than Obama, I disagree (I think they both are equally horrible), but whatever. What about next election? And the election after that? We keep getting progressively worse. At what point will we ever stop voting for the least worse?
So what's your point?
You don't have another solution.
So are you just going to piss and moan about how bad McCain is forever? Everyone knows already.
Just get the guy elected instead of Obama, then keep an eye on everything he does, correct him when he goes off course. You wouldn't have that option with Obama.
Consider it a lousy, high maintenance horse you can still pull on the reins of, vs. one that will just throw you, step on you, and couldn't care less.
And work to re-form the Republican party during the four years of respite time. Focus on November first.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 26, 2008, 01:53:01 PM
And WHAT is your alternative?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
Well, I could try offering other solutions, manedwolf. I know you won't accept them. Instead, you'd immediately stomp them out with your "real world" rhetoric. My "real world" is that I am so utterly disgusted with being fed more of the same 'lesser of evils' politics that I'm finally ready to go to the polls. Just how many more chances do the Democrats and Republicans get? They've been running this country for at least a few generations and this, this is the best they have to offer? I'm breaking out with the other inmates who want to experience liberty while we're alive. You can stay if you want to, but please stop making the 3rd party people here feel like they're traitors because they're voting for principle. Voting 3rd party does not, and never will, equate to supporting Obama.
My decisions are meant to keep my hands clean. There are more issues at stake, at least for me, than whether or not a government (which derives its just powers from the consent of the governed) wants to be so benevolent as to "grant" me the RKBA. I'm not a single-issue voter. Sorry.
Take the war for instance:
What is a guy like me supposed to do? Look at the next military son [daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, cousin] I see in town and tell them, "Sorry, I know this war is a big joke and all, but I'd rather stay at home and cradle my hunting rifle in my arms instead of doing what I can to stop the war in Iraq"? Or, "You might have to die in a war with Iran if McCain gets in, but, gee, I can't be disarmed or the government will try to run my life."
(This is the point where we begin to realize that even though we currently have the right to keep and bear arms, the government is still chiseling away at our rights. I guess those guns have some kind of voodoo spell that keeps the government away, even if they're just sitting in a steel cabinet somewhere in our houses. Too exteme? Okay, even I'll agree that it is much too early for that action. Yet, I hate to break it to you folks that the wookies - the ones we see on street corners in NH and laugh at as they are being hauled off by the police - have likely done more to stand up for our rights than those magical firearms we keep in our closets or under our beds; please keep the chamber clear of dust).
Every one of us gets mocked because some of us use much less violent, albeit unorthodox, methods to achieve our goals and get our message out. If we allow ourselves to be constrained by the grossly un-American (and false) notion that a return to true liberty must be incremental, "civilized," and compromising, you're right, there isn't much a 3rd party can do. There isn't a damned thing any of us can do, in such a case. To top it all off: in our meek and often fruitless efforts, we're drowned out not by the thugs in Washington, but by a unprecedentedly massive concert of simply uninformed Americans - detached from a rich history in the lessons of personal freedom - and a media network that handles censorship and propaganda so well it makes corrupt governments envious.
I could go over a huge list of issues that are important to me, or I can sum it all up in one word: Constitution. That's it. You rarely hear McCain use it. You rarely hear Obama or Hillary or [insert nearly any politician] use it. It might get mentioned in cases of sheer convenience. The Constitution of the United States of America. It lays out what the government can do, but even more importantly, what it cannot. It does NOT grant us our rights, but guarantees them. The document itself is a worthless piece of paper so old I wouldn't depend on it to wipe my ***, but at the same time, it is, perhaps, the one thread of our nation that hasn't unraveled. It won't, so long as someone is there to stand up for it.
I'd be willing to bet that not a single front-runner in the '08 election could recite the first 5 Amendments without ****ing up. Of course, the debate moderators would never have allowed such a challenge to be posed on national T.V., they'd rather know what the government plans to do about the energy crisis (ignoring the fact that the founders never intended the federal government to decide such issues).
I want the guy in office who will let me keep my guns and stop the war. That is my reality. It does exist, and I will stand up for it. Just try to make me feel bad about it.
Unfortunately, we gun owners don't even know what we'd do with our guns if given the chance. We might even have to stand up for something that we cannot bring ourselves to agree with. Horrific and utterly exhiliarating, I know! Until that day comes, we have a lot of learning to do.
A good way to start is to look up something the founders wrote. It can be anything by any one of them, freedom of the press, RKBA, judicial review, etc. Just read what they have to say about our country. Read what they had hoped for the nation they started, for their posterity. At least, it amazes me how far we have strayed.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2008, 01:25:30 AM
Quote
And work to re-form the Republican party during the four years of respite time. Focus on November first.
So you're already a CFL member?
Post by: Manedwolf on June 27, 2008, 01:41:02 AM
What is a guy like me supposed to do? Look at the next military son [daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, cousin] I see in town and tell them, "Sorry, I know this war is a big joke and all, but I'd rather stay at home and cradle my hunting rifle in my arms instead of doing what I can to stop the war in Iraq"? Or, "You might have to die in a war with Iran if McCain gets in, but, gee, I can't be disarmed or the government will try to run my life."
How's that kool-aid over at DU, then?
The war is a big joke, huh? Yeah, you'll reallllly endear yourself here with veterans and people whose families are serving with that sort of Kos Kidz excrement.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2008, 01:49:37 AM
The war is a big joke, huh? Yeah, you'll reallllly endear yourself here with veterans and people whose families are serving with that sort of Kos Kidz excrement.
Manedwolf, I do not wish to disagree with you. But... vinegar. Honey.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 27, 2008, 01:53:13 AM
The war is a big joke, huh? Yeah, you'll reallllly endear yourself here with veterans and people whose families are serving with that sort of Kos Kidz excrement.
Manedwolf, I do not wish to disagree with you. But... vinegar. Honey.
The war has destroyed one of the world's worst dictators. The war gave Iraqis a chance for freedom and democracy. The surge has been the correct strategy, and is WORKING. Read something besides far-left rags, and you'll see it's WORKING. Talk to someone actually there, and they tell you it's WORKING.
I really, really, really have a problem with people who call it a "joke", as that demeans all the brave men and women who died for that ideal of spreading democracy, and discredits their sacrifice.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2008, 01:59:12 AM
However, I state the following:
There are plenty anti-war conservatives. There are plenty of outright libertarians. You cannot get to them just by scaring them with Obama and calling them "Kos Kids".
P.S. For the record, I support the war.
Post by: roo_ster on June 27, 2008, 06:05:41 AM
A: Something internet whiners may be unfamiliar with: the HARD WORK necessary for COTUS-embracing folks to get elected.
There are two viable parties, today: Dems & Reps. That's it. If you don't engage them, you are pissing in the wind. The Reps have a platform and members much more congenial to the COTUS than the Dems. Note, I did not say, "In strict accordance with the COTUS." They are closer to the mark and better material to work with.
So, get off your duff and get into your local Rep party. Get informed and get involved. Support the more liberty-minded, COTUS-embracing candidate for every elected position, from dog-catcher on up. Because the guy elected dog-catcher today, will be elected to the state senate next year and be the Rep candidate for Congress a few more years down the road..and so on, until he might be in the running for the Rep candidate for POTUS.
Also, treat it like a HOA. Don't like a provision, position, or whatnot? Get your self elected to one of the local party committees and press for the change you want.
There are other ways to be effective, especially in issue advocacy. Just understand, any third-party activity has to be viewed as an indulgence and a hobby. It might provide inner satisfaction and may capture a few folks on the fringes, the big two parties are where the action is and the decisions are made.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 27, 2008, 08:17:05 AM
What is a guy like me supposed to do? Look at the next military son [daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, cousin] I see in town and tell them, "Sorry, I know this war is a big joke and all, but I'd rather stay at home and cradle my hunting rifle in my arms instead of doing what I can to stop the war in Iraq"? Or, "You might have to die in a war with Iran if McCain gets in, but, gee, I can't be disarmed or the government will try to run my life."
How's that kool-aid over at DU, then?
The war is a big joke, huh? Yeah, you'll reallllly endear yourself here with veterans and people whose families are serving with that sort of Kos Kidz excrement.
Oh, man. Not the Kool-aid card! I didn't see that one coming. Hang on a sec . . . alright, the stinging has stopped.
Let's ignore the facts, which are as follows:
This is an unconstitutional, undeclared war; we ignore the advice of the founders [James Madison: "The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."]; the roaches actually responsible for the 9/11 attacks are running free (probably in an "ally" country, like Saudi Arabia); Ron Paul received more donations during his campaign from currently serving military men and women than any other candidate; inflation and gas prices continue to rise (few are so bold to admit a relation there); the war in Iraq was declared a victory 4 years ago, yet the most powerful military force in the world remains overseas, while here at home, pissant mayors defiantly supersede the Bill of Rights; there is a resolution (362) on the House floor that (once again) gives the commander in chief (whomever that may be) a free pass to initiate war (this time with Iran); etcetera, etc.
So, really, I don't know who died and made you spokesman for the majority of Iraq war veterans, but save your phony anger and your hot-air patriotism. I refer you to the military oath of enlistment:
Quote
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
[emphasis mine]I know very well the dilemma that our troops are in, thank you much Mr. Spokesman. They're stuck between an obligation to defend the Constitution of the USA, or obeying the orders of a commander-in-chief that has no respect for the aforementioned document.
I hate McCain's guts, and you act as though you so desperately need us 3rd-party voters to swing to McCain. You also, I take it, adamantly support this war (supposedly
). How about this for a compromise:
You join the Marine Corps, and I'll vote for McCain. You sacrifice being at home with your family for months on end, and I'll sacrifice my right to vote for principle.
When you get to Iraq, I want you to find a jarhead who thought he joined up to find the mother-f*ckers responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and tell him that you're willing to take over and want to defend your freedoms. If you start complaining about how the goal posts keep getting moved further back, Ill accuse you of being treasonous and unpatriotic. Otherwise, you can spread all the democracy you want, and I'll feel good because "I'm supporting the troops."
When you break those chains, just leave them in the pile where I left mine.
Q: What do we do if we manage to elect the RINO and whup the marxist?
A: Something internet whiners may be unfamiliar with: the HARD WORK necessary for COTUS-embracing folks to get elected.
A: Something internet whiners may be unfamiliar with: the HARD WORK necessary for COTUS-embracing folks to get elected.
Hmm. . . . hard work. Nope, wouldn't know anything about it.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/mission/
(I'm assuming that if you've clicked that link, you are the newest member.)
Post by: roo_ster on June 27, 2008, 09:22:27 AM
Gee, I've never seen the "this is an illegal war" and "chickenhawk" cards played before.
The former is a lie, according to the Congressional Record(1) and the latter is a dodge and textual means whereby one sticks one's fingers in one's ears and chants, "Nananana, I'm not listening."
By all means, if you desire foreign policy to be decided by those who have served in the armed forces, you can advocate for it. I suspect the results might be other than those you desire. This veteran is not in favor and won't provide support for such.
Quote from: nobody's_hero
Hmm. . . . hard work. Nope, wouldn't know anything about it.
I'll admit, walking around in a wookie(2) suit in August in Iowa, & New Hampshire is hard, sweaty work. Doesn't really accomplish much, though.(1) Folks conscious during the debate that went from late 2001 until early 2003 might also dispute your characterization, considering that the legislation authorizing the Iraq shenanigans passed both houses of Congress and was signed by GWB his own self.
(2) FWIW, when Texas held its Republican primary, I voted Paulistinian. Pimping his candidacy, though, is not worth any of my time as he as discredited himself, has lost the Rep primary for POTUS candidate, and is not my House District's representative to Congress. FOlks need to get over him, as his was a vanity candidacy that had a snowball's chance in hell of winning after he played for the "blame America first" vote and couldn't get off his Gold Standard hobby horse.
Post by: taurusowner on June 27, 2008, 09:43:06 AM
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 27, 2008, 09:50:46 AM
By all means, if you desire foreign policy to be decided by those who have served in the armed forces, you can advocate for it. I suspect the results might be other than those you desire. This veteran is not in favor and won't provide support for such.
So you're not voting for McCain?
Post by: roo_ster on June 27, 2008, 09:56:47 AM
By all means, if you desire foreign policy to be decided by those who have served in the armed forces, you can advocate for it. I suspect the results might be other than those you desire. This veteran is not in favor and won't provide support for such.
So you're not voting for McCain?
I do not support requiring military service to legitimately advocate particular foreign policies. Which is what the "chickenhawk" argument boils down to.
Not only is such not supported by the COTUS, it is just plain unAmerican.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 27, 2008, 10:06:05 AM
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2008, 10:31:53 AM
Do I meet your criteria nobody? Am I good enough to support the war? Speaking of experience, how much time have you spent in country? Or do you just believe whatever Keith Olberman tells you?
Post by: ilbob on June 27, 2008, 10:37:02 AM
If it was a question of merely surviving this election, I could go along with your view, and might vote McCain.
However, if we elect McCain, does that not indicate that his type is electable? Won't the next candidate just be another McCain, which people will once more hold their nose for and elect?
You seem to assume that if we just survive this nasty Obama business, the bright and shining Republican President will emerge from the ranks and lead us into the future. But if we keep feeding the snakes, they're just going to breed more snakes.
I realize that I may be very naive. I am young, and continually discover things I was naive about in the past. But I'm striving to see your point, and I'm not quite seeing it as viable.
There are only so many Eisenhowers and Reagans out there. You take the best options you have available at the time.However, if we elect McCain, does that not indicate that his type is electable? Won't the next candidate just be another McCain, which people will once more hold their nose for and elect?
You seem to assume that if we just survive this nasty Obama business, the bright and shining Republican President will emerge from the ranks and lead us into the future. But if we keep feeding the snakes, they're just going to breed more snakes.
I realize that I may be very naive. I am young, and continually discover things I was naive about in the past. But I'm striving to see your point, and I'm not quite seeing it as viable.
This time you have a choice between someone who will destroy the USA given a chance, and someone who wants the USA to be a strong and vibrant power, but not quite the way you might chose. Its not even a tough call.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2008, 10:58:19 AM
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Pimping his candidacy, though, is not worth any of my time as he as discredited himself, has lost the Rep primary for POTUS candidate, and is not my House District's representative to Congress.
1. Campaign for Liberty is not about RP's Presidential campaign. Which is over.
2. Had you read the website at any depth, you'd have known that.
3. Opposing the war does not equal discrediting yourself. Nor does supporting free banking or the gold standard.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 27, 2008, 01:28:16 PM
"We've already seen one who will offer you all of your Constitutional rights, but apparently what wasn't all that great of a bargain. "
and its was so cool that his supporters even minted money with his likeness on it! and that he never complained about it
Post by: wmenorr67 on June 27, 2008, 08:31:41 PM
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When you get to Iraq, I want you to find a jarhead who thought he joined up to find the mother-f*ckers responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and tell him that you're willing to take over and want to defend your freedoms. If you start complaining about how the goal posts keep getting moved further back, Ill accuse you of being treasonous and unpatriotic. Otherwise, you can spread all the democracy you want, and I'll feel good because "I'm supporting the troops."
Any one in the military at this time should have known that there was a good chance they were coming to Iraq. If they didn't they just didn't see the signs.
I would tell you right now that well over 90% of the troops in Iraq believe that what we are doing is correct. Just there are somethings that need to be done differently.
Post by: Monty on June 27, 2008, 09:19:02 PM
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And WHAT is your alternative?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
Among realistic, viable candidates, now. No third-parties that are completely out of the election.
What the the alternative right now, at this moment. In the real world, before November, in terms of something that can happen.
What is your alternative?
Because I'm getting tired of hearing "Blaahhh, McCain sucks" when you're not offering ANY OTHER SOLUTION.
We know he sucks. We get it. We understand. The other side sucks more.
So what do you want to do, since you keep objecting to McCain?
I never said I had another solution, and I don't. But I don't need one to know that this one sucks. It just seems to me that so many people are willing to just bend over and accept McCain without giving true thought to the damage that the whole "lesser of two evils mentality" is doing to our country. Fine you think McCain is less worse than Obama, I disagree (I think they both are equally horrible), but whatever. What about next election? And the election after that? We keep getting progressively worse. At what point will we ever stop voting for the least worse?
I was willing to sit this one out if it was McCain vs Hillary, wasn't going to play the lessor of two evils game again, was going to stay 3rd party all the way into Nov. I don't like this choice, not one bit, but sometimes men have to stand up and do things they don't like because it's the absolute right thing. Keeping Obama out of the Oval Office is the RIGHT thing. We can not let Obama have his way with this country.
If you see Barack, just tell him, "You can keep the change!"
Monty
http://whyNOTbarackobama.blogspot.com