Post by: Manedwolf on June 27, 2008, 02:35:05 AM
This is why we have a space program. Now, to get there.
Quote
Martian soil appears able to support life
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - "Flabbergasted" NASA scientists said on Thursday that Martian soil appeared to contain the requirements to support life, although more work would be needed to prove it.
Scientists working on the Phoenix Mars Lander mission, which has already found ice on the planet, said preliminary analysis by the lander's instruments on a sample of soil scooped up by the spacecraft's robotic arm had shown it to be much more alkaline than expected.
"We basically have found what appears to be the requirements, the nutrients, to support life whether past present or future," Sam Kounaves, the lead investigator for the wet chemistry laboratory on Phoenix, told journalists.
"It is the type of soil you would probably have in your back yard, you know, alkaline. You might be able to grow asparagus in it really well. ... It is very exciting for us."
The 1 cubic centimetre (0.06 cubic inch) of soil was taken from about 1 inch (2.5 cm) below the surface of Mars and had a pH, or alkaline, level of 8 or 9. "We were all flabbergasted at the data we got back," Kounaves said.
Pressed on whether there was still any doubt that life existed on Mars in some form, Kounaves said the results were "very preliminary" and more analysis was needed.
But he added: "There is nothing about the soil that would preclude life. In fact, it seems very friendly ... there is nothing about it that is toxic."
The $420 million (211 million pounds) Phoenix lander touched down in the north pole region of Mars on May 25 after a 10-month journey from Earth. It is the latest NASA bid to determine whether water -- a crucial ingredient for life -- ever flowed on the planet and whether life, even in the form of mere microbes, exists or ever existed there.
Scientists said last week they had definitive proof that ice was on the planet after eight dice-sized chunks were seen melting away in a series of photographs.
Analysis in the past 24 hours of soil placed in the spacecraft's wet chemistry laboratory showed it to be less acidic than many scientists expected. It also contained traces of magnesium, sodium, potassium and other elements, they said.
When told the pH levels, one colleague "jumped up and down as if he had the winning lottery ticket," mission soil analysis specialist Michael Hecht told a telephone news conference.
"It is a huge step forward," Hecht said, adding the "wet chemistry" technique, which involves mixing Martian soil with water brought from Earth, was aimed at discovering what native Martian microbes might be able to live, survive and grow in the soil.
The mission scientists said levels of salt were reasonable and the calcium levels appeared to be low but they warned that the composition of the soil could change at deeper levels below the surface.
They also would not be drawn on what form of life the Martian soil might have supported.
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - "Flabbergasted" NASA scientists said on Thursday that Martian soil appeared to contain the requirements to support life, although more work would be needed to prove it.
Scientists working on the Phoenix Mars Lander mission, which has already found ice on the planet, said preliminary analysis by the lander's instruments on a sample of soil scooped up by the spacecraft's robotic arm had shown it to be much more alkaline than expected.
"We basically have found what appears to be the requirements, the nutrients, to support life whether past present or future," Sam Kounaves, the lead investigator for the wet chemistry laboratory on Phoenix, told journalists.
"It is the type of soil you would probably have in your back yard, you know, alkaline. You might be able to grow asparagus in it really well. ... It is very exciting for us."
The 1 cubic centimetre (0.06 cubic inch) of soil was taken from about 1 inch (2.5 cm) below the surface of Mars and had a pH, or alkaline, level of 8 or 9. "We were all flabbergasted at the data we got back," Kounaves said.
Pressed on whether there was still any doubt that life existed on Mars in some form, Kounaves said the results were "very preliminary" and more analysis was needed.
But he added: "There is nothing about the soil that would preclude life. In fact, it seems very friendly ... there is nothing about it that is toxic."
The $420 million (211 million pounds) Phoenix lander touched down in the north pole region of Mars on May 25 after a 10-month journey from Earth. It is the latest NASA bid to determine whether water -- a crucial ingredient for life -- ever flowed on the planet and whether life, even in the form of mere microbes, exists or ever existed there.
Scientists said last week they had definitive proof that ice was on the planet after eight dice-sized chunks were seen melting away in a series of photographs.
Analysis in the past 24 hours of soil placed in the spacecraft's wet chemistry laboratory showed it to be less acidic than many scientists expected. It also contained traces of magnesium, sodium, potassium and other elements, they said.
When told the pH levels, one colleague "jumped up and down as if he had the winning lottery ticket," mission soil analysis specialist Michael Hecht told a telephone news conference.
"It is a huge step forward," Hecht said, adding the "wet chemistry" technique, which involves mixing Martian soil with water brought from Earth, was aimed at discovering what native Martian microbes might be able to live, survive and grow in the soil.
The mission scientists said levels of salt were reasonable and the calcium levels appeared to be low but they warned that the composition of the soil could change at deeper levels below the surface.
They also would not be drawn on what form of life the Martian soil might have supported.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUKN2642980420080627
Post by: RevDisk on June 27, 2008, 02:46:53 AM
Woah... Okay. Alkaline soil with no toxins. Magnesium, sodium, potassium. Now, THAT is cool.
This is why we have a space program. Now, to get there.
This is why we have a space program. Now, to get there.
Yep. Building greenhouses on Mars just got a lot easier.
I do wonder about the amount of water available. No easy supply of water, things get much more complicated. Not impossible, mind you. Just more complicated. Which is not what you want several million miles from Earth. But with good quality soil and an easy supply of water, there'd be a very very easy way to colonize Mars. Fire a couple supply drops and then ask for volunteers for a one way trip.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 27, 2008, 02:48:49 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 27, 2008, 03:05:50 AM
Post by: RevDisk on June 27, 2008, 03:14:46 AM
I want to see equipment puttering around there with the logos on the side for NASA, Martin, Lockheed...and John Deere.
I'd hope New Holland gets the contract, but that's just local pride.
You'd need to re-engineer the tractors. Mars has significantly lower gravity than earth, and the atmo is lower in oxygen. But yep. Need to do a lot of digging, you'd likely need some sort of space tractor.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 27, 2008, 03:16:52 AM
I want to see equipment puttering around there with the logos on the side for NASA, Martin, Lockheed...and John Deere.
I'd hope New Holland gets the contract, but that's just local pride.
You'd need to re-engineer the tractors. Mars has significantly lower gravity than earth, and the atmo is lower in oxygen. But yep. Need to do a lot of digging, you'd likely need some sort of space tractor.
It's also 36 to 250 million miles to the nearest station that has diesel, depending on the time of year.
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2008, 04:25:55 AM
Post by: crt360 on June 27, 2008, 04:54:36 AM
"Space tractor" would be an awesome name for a band.
I was thinking the same thing.
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 27, 2008, 05:21:57 AM
Give me enough time to purchase a good quality revolver, though.
Post by: wmenorr67 on June 27, 2008, 05:27:16 AM
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 27, 2008, 05:34:14 AM
Mars will OBVIOUSLY be a gigantic Wild West frontier desert.
Post by: wmenorr67 on June 27, 2008, 05:35:35 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on June 27, 2008, 05:41:29 AM
Since the planet is red how do you tell if there is blood in the streets?
Duh, Martians have green blood.
Chris
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 27, 2008, 05:44:31 AM
Post by: wmenorr67 on June 27, 2008, 05:48:36 AM
Since the planet is red how do you tell if there is blood in the streets?
Duh, Martians have green blood.
Chris
Let us hope they are Daley Martians and also fear guns.
Post by: Tallpine on June 27, 2008, 06:03:42 AM
Post by: Josh Aston on June 27, 2008, 06:58:17 AM
Post by: Tallpine on June 27, 2008, 08:09:54 AM
I'll sign up for the colonization as long as they take some livestock. I don't think I could live off of vegetables.
Yeah, I gotta have my horse to ride, too
Post by: K Frame on June 27, 2008, 08:14:17 AM
How about that atmosphere?
Post by: Nick1911 on June 27, 2008, 08:18:14 AM
Great, the soil's fine...
How about that atmosphere?
How about that atmosphere?
Mostly carbon dioxide. Which is *also* good for plant life. The carbon gets added to the mass of the plant, and the oxygen gets liberated back into the atmosphere.
Post by: seeker_two on June 27, 2008, 08:18:45 AM
Why do you need a pistol on Mars?
Didn't you see "Total Recall"?.....
[Ahnold voice] "Get your @$$ to Mars..." [/Ahnold voice]
Post by: Tallpine on June 27, 2008, 08:19:31 AM
Great, the soil's fine...
How about that atmosphere?
How about that atmosphere?
I hear the ambience is nice
Post by: Marnoot on June 27, 2008, 08:45:46 AM
Post by: seeker_two on June 27, 2008, 08:47:00 AM
Great, the soil's fine...
How about that atmosphere?
How about that atmosphere?
I hear the ambience is nice
Casual dining....no black tie......
Post by: Manedwolf on June 27, 2008, 08:51:30 AM
Soil's fine, atmo's fine for plants, what about the temperature?
Familiar to anyone from the upper midwest.
Post by: Nick1911 on June 27, 2008, 08:52:22 AM
Soil's fine, atmo's fine for plants, what about the temperature?
Low. Real low. IIRC it swings from -90C to -5C. Very Antarctica like.
Post by: Marnoot on June 27, 2008, 09:04:10 AM
Soil's fine, atmo's fine for plants, what about the temperature?
Low. Real low. IIRC it swings from -90C to -5C. Very Antarctica like.
Don't sound none too plant-friendly...
Post by: El Tejon on June 27, 2008, 09:06:37 AM
Wrong colours though. Need more browns and grays.
Post by: Nick1911 on June 27, 2008, 09:15:40 AM
February Northern Indiana=surface of Mars.
Wrong colours though. Need more browns and grays.
Wrong colours though. Need more browns and grays.
Mid-winter in northern Indiana is flat-out depressing. Bare trees silhouetted against gray skies for months on end.
Post by: El Tejon on June 27, 2008, 09:18:02 AM
WTF? No, it could be 70 and sunny one day, 50 and raining, or -10 and snowing. Nothing like diversity.
Post by: stevelyn on June 27, 2008, 02:21:30 PM
Post by: Tallpine on June 27, 2008, 06:23:18 PM
And zuchini of course...
Post by: mfree on June 27, 2008, 08:00:55 PM
The atmosphere is 95% carbon dioxide... laying out the greenhouse and pumping it up to earth-level pressures or a wee bit lower takes care of the first part, the sun raises the temperature at least to habitable levels, hopefully above freezing... and if so, then the seeds and ergo growing plants take care of oxygenating the greenhouse. It may not be habitable until it equalizes, but frankly it almost seems too easy.
Post by: seeker_two on June 28, 2008, 05:11:50 AM
Rhubarb - I bet rhubarb would grow on Mars
And zuchini of course...
And zuchini of course...
Who'd want to go to Mars if all you could eat was rhubarb and zuchini?....
Post by: Manedwolf on June 28, 2008, 07:50:28 AM
Rhubarb - I bet rhubarb would grow on Mars
And zuchini of course...
And zuchini of course...
They would need to ship the restroom facilities before the rest of the habitat.
Post by: macadore on June 28, 2008, 11:52:20 AM
Soil's fine, atmo's fine for plants, what about the temperature?
Quote
The daytime SURFACE temperature is about 80 F during rare summer days, to -200 F at the poles in winter. The AIR temperature, however, rarely gets much above 32 F.
The temperatures on the two Viking landers, measured at 1.5 meters above the surface, range from + 1° F, ( -17.2° C) to -178° F (-107° C). However, the temperature of the surface at the winter polar caps drop to -225° F, (-143° C) while the warmest soil occasionally reaches +81° F (27° C) as estimated from Viking Orbiter Infrared Thermal Mapper.
In 2004, the Spirit rover recorded the warmest temperature around +5 C and the coldest is -15 Celsius in the Guisev Crater.
http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q2681.html
The temperatures on the two Viking landers, measured at 1.5 meters above the surface, range from + 1° F, ( -17.2° C) to -178° F (-107° C). However, the temperature of the surface at the winter polar caps drop to -225° F, (-143° C) while the warmest soil occasionally reaches +81° F (27° C) as estimated from Viking Orbiter Infrared Thermal Mapper.
In 2004, the Spirit rover recorded the warmest temperature around +5 C and the coldest is -15 Celsius in the Guisev Crater.
http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q2681.html
Post by: Tallpine on June 28, 2008, 03:21:35 PM
Post by: drewtam on June 28, 2008, 04:40:51 PM
I want to see equipment puttering around there with the logos on the side for NASA, Martin, Lockheed...and John Deere.
I'd hope New Holland gets the contract, but that's just local pride.
You'd need to re-engineer the tractors. Mars has significantly lower gravity than earth, and the atmo is lower in oxygen. But yep. Need to do a lot of digging, you'd likely need some sort of space tractor.
Cat's already ahead of that game...
http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=8703&x=7&f=177263#/nasa/
In this movie they're talking about the moon, not Mars, but Mars should be easier.
Post by: DustinD on June 30, 2008, 07:26:02 PM
Also any serious Mars base plan involves some form of nuclear power source even if it is not a full blown reactor. These can provide all of the high or low grade heat you could ever want.
www.marshome.org is working on Mars colony concepts as is www.newmars.com
http://www.marssociety.org/portal and www.marsdrive.com are also good places for information on this topic. All four places have forums and or mailing lists.
Shooting rifles on Mars would we way too much fun. 38% gravity and 1% air resistance would give you tons of range and almost no wind drift.
Post by: S. Williamson on June 30, 2008, 11:55:05 PM
Utah:
Mars:
Post by: seeker_two on July 01, 2008, 03:46:53 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Rockwell
Post by: Mabs2 on July 01, 2008, 06:43:50 AM
Mars is pretty big, somewhat flat in some locations, no foliage at least, and lower gravity.
I can't wait for the rifle ranges.
Post by: Dntsycnt on July 01, 2008, 07:03:36 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on July 01, 2008, 07:04:38 AM
Ok.
Mars is pretty big, somewhat flat in some locations, no foliage at least, and lower gravity.
I can't wait for the rifle ranges.
Mars is pretty big, somewhat flat in some locations, no foliage at least, and lower gravity.
I can't wait for the rifle ranges.
Clay shooting would be downright unfair.
Post by: Firethorn on July 01, 2008, 10:46:49 AM
Keep in mind that with Mars low atmospheric pressure, buildings and people (in space suits) do not lose as much heat as it would seem. All of the studies that I have seen for Mars habitats have required more cooling capabilities than heating. A green house for example that is a hybrid of natural and artificial light would need pretty decent cooling capabilities unless you used some of the most efficient (and expensive) led lights that are beginning to appear. By new and expensive I mean several dollars per emitter and not generally or yet available, but the price will come down as yields improve.
Indeed. One of the things I learned in biology is that plants DO use O2 at night. Not as much of it as animals, of course. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if roots often depend on atmospheric O2. So if you're starting up a greenhouse you're either going to need to spike it with some O2 or provide 24-7 light to your seedlings so they're continously producing the O2 they need. Even then you're likely to need a dedicated sprouting section that provides an O2 source until the seedlings develop enough chlorophyll for photosynthesis.
As for the lights, I wouldn't picture anything else being used - unless you're talking about some light source being produced on mars in favor of shipping it from earth. The cost of launching anything into orbit, then putting it on a course for mars makes the cost of the lights insignificant, so why not use the best?
Quote
Also any serious Mars base plan involves some form of nuclear power source even if it is not a full blown reactor. These can provide all of the high or low grade heat you could ever want.
Pretty much. As long as you're putting in a nuclear reactor on mars, might as well go whole hog and make it a combined plant. Higher efficiency for win!
I don't think that it'd be a bad idea to send over an automated greenhouse first. Get the O2 levels up to 'breathable', then use mechanical/chemical systems to seperate out the O2, either into a chemical dump or pressurized tanks. Keep balancing out the atmosphere to maintain proper pressure and CO2 levels by sucking in more outside atmosphere. Possibly using regenerable CO2 scrubbers to pull only CO2 in from outside(keeping nitrogen or whatever else is out there from eventually choking up the system).
The harvesting systems would likely be interesting. Then again, deprived of O2, you're not going to get much in the way of decomposition, so you'd just sequester whatever plant matter you don't want. No oxygen in freezing temperatures(IE outside) wouldn't lead to decomposition anytime soon in human terms.
Don't send humans until you have enough O2/plant matter to act as a food supply for a year or five. And yes, initially for a colony project I'd make most of the trips one way.
Post by: Tallpine on July 01, 2008, 10:52:07 AM
Post by: Scout26 on July 01, 2008, 11:21:52 AM
If the atmosphere of Mars is 95% carbon dioxide, then how come it isn't warmer there
Tallpine, stop confusing AlGore with facts.
All we need to do is find the big mountain and go push the three finger button to get all the oxygen we need.
Post by: macadore on July 01, 2008, 01:23:21 PM