Post by: Grandpa Shooter on June 27, 2008, 06:09:22 AM
I don't need any explanation of the sort of O B A M A being the acronym for something derogatory. I am serious in my confusion. The only two things I have heard or read repeatedly are "hope" and "change" What does the man actually stand for? He says something and then retracts it. Affirms something and then denies it.
What solid unchanging principles does the man stand on? If you think you understand, would you be so kind as to explain it to me. I have been an avid watcher since 1968 and have never been as confused as I am about this election.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2008, 06:09:52 AM
Post by: longeyes on June 27, 2008, 07:57:39 AM
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 08:16:03 AM
I have been following the upcoming election quite loosely, waiting for the candidates to be chosen by their parties. Having read what I have I am still puzzled trying to figure out what Obama stands for. I am reminded of the phrase from one of my favorite songs, "You gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything".
I don't need any explanation of the sort of O B A M A being the acronym for something derogatory. I am serious in my confusion. The only two things I have heard or read repeatedly are "hope" and "change" What does the man actually stand for? He says something and then retracts it. Affirms something and then denies it.
What solid unchanging principles does the man stand on? If you think you understand, would you be so kind as to explain it to me. I have been an avid watcher since 1968 and have never been as confused as I am about this election.
I don't need any explanation of the sort of O B A M A being the acronym for something derogatory. I am serious in my confusion. The only two things I have heard or read repeatedly are "hope" and "change" What does the man actually stand for? He says something and then retracts it. Affirms something and then denies it.
What solid unchanging principles does the man stand on? If you think you understand, would you be so kind as to explain it to me. I have been an avid watcher since 1968 and have never been as confused as I am about this election.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
If you are honest and sincere in your pursuit, you can start here. That is his official website. You will be able to read what he stands for. Go to the above listed page and use the drop down menu titled "issues". There is substantial information on many topics.
If this was just another excuse for an open sound board for the haters, well then, I will step aside and let them supply all you could ever wish for.
Post by: K Frame on June 27, 2008, 08:16:18 AM
Post by: seeker_two on June 27, 2008, 08:20:52 AM
Post by: El Tejon on June 27, 2008, 08:22:26 AM
Post by: longeyes on June 27, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 08:32:55 AM
That is hilarious!
The haters are actually sad that the USSR is gone. So sad that they want to recreate it in their minds so they can hate again. Ahhh absence does make the heart grow fonder..........
Post by: Tallpine on June 27, 2008, 08:37:20 AM
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Expand Hate Crimes Statutes
Because my life is worth less than certain others
Post by: alex_trebek on June 27, 2008, 08:42:48 AM
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That is hilarious!
The haters are actually sad that the USSR is gone. So sad that they want to recreate it in their minds so they can hate again. Ahhh absence does make the heart grow fonder..........
The haters are actually sad that the USSR is gone. So sad that they want to recreate it in their minds so they can hate again. Ahhh absence does make the heart grow fonder..........
I am confused as to your intent with this statement, are you hinting support for the former USSR? If not, then what, exactly, is wrong with being against communism? (given what happened/is happening in communist states)
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Because my life is worth less than certain others
Far be it for me to disagree with you...
Seriously, I don't really care for hate crime laws either, and am not surprised that Obama supports them.Back to the topic at hand, I am not really sure what the man stands for either. Basically I think he keeps on talking, and changes what people dont like to hear. So I guess you could say he stands for hope, change, and whatever else sounds good.
Post by: Tallpine on June 27, 2008, 08:46:06 AM
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Seriously, I don't really care for hate crime laws either
Did you defy a federal prosecutor and district court judge ?
(they "excused" me from jury duty
)
Post by: alex_trebek on June 27, 2008, 08:47:44 AM
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Did you defy a federal prosecutor and district court judge ? Wink
(they "excused" me from jury duty rolleyes )
(they "excused" me from jury duty rolleyes )
Nice, I have never been called for Jury duty. Will have to remember that if it ever comes up...
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 08:56:47 AM
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That is hilarious!
The haters are actually sad that the USSR is gone. So sad that they want to recreate it in their minds so they can hate again. Ahhh absence does make the heart grow fonder..........
The haters are actually sad that the USSR is gone. So sad that they want to recreate it in their minds so they can hate again. Ahhh absence does make the heart grow fonder..........
I am confused as to your intent with this statement, are you hinting support for the former USSR? If not, then what, exactly, is wrong with being against communism? (given what happened/is happening in communist states)
I don't belive you don't get the jist of that sarcastic statement. But, I will take your querry at face value and offer this to you.
Some people love to hate so much they need an enemy to hate. Now that the USSR is history, they miss hating it. Not because of what the USSR was, but just because they love to hate. I bet it is exciting for them just to see that symbol again. The haters are the ones who miss the USSR, no one else.
Post by: agricola on June 27, 2008, 09:03:58 AM
What solid unchanging principles does the man stand on? If you think you understand, would you be so kind as to explain it to me. I have been an avid watcher since 1968 and have never been as confused as I am about this election.
More ground clearance for buses, it seems.
Post by: alex_trebek on June 27, 2008, 09:05:36 AM
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If don't belive you don't get the jist of that sarcastic statement. But, I will take your querry at face value and offer this to you.
Yeah I didn't get it at first. Wasn't clear to me what you meant, got it now though.
Post by: K Frame on June 27, 2008, 09:05:47 AM
It is my believe, fueled by the Senator's own actions, words, and voting record, that he holds more than a passing affinity for socialist causes, stances, and actions.
I don't know whether you've consulted a world almanac, encyclopedia, or even the internet lately, or ever, but were you to do so you'd find, likely much to your surprise, that the hammer and sickle is not exclusively a symbol of the former Soviet Union and its particular brand of communism. In fact, in a historical context, the hammer and sickle has been used as much by those professing socialist, but not Soviet Communist, ideas as by advocates of pure communism itself.
But, I suspect you won't be tracking with any of what I've just said.
Seems that some people love.
To be ignorant, that is.
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 09:24:23 AM
Find me any proof, in what I have said here, that I hate Senator Obama.
It is my believe, fueled by the Senator's own actions, words, and voting record, that he holds more than a passing affinity for socialist causes, stances, and actions.
I don't know whether you've consulted a world almanac, encyclopedia, or even the internet lately, or ever, but were you to do so you'd find, likely much to your surprise, that the hammer and sickle is not exclusively a symbol of the former Soviet Union and its particular brand of communism. In fact, in a historical context, the hammer and sickle has been used as much by those professing socialist, but not Soviet Communist, ideas as by advocates of pure communism itself.
But, I suspect you won't be tracking with any of what I've just said.
Seems that some people love.
To be ignorant, that is.
It is my believe, fueled by the Senator's own actions, words, and voting record, that he holds more than a passing affinity for socialist causes, stances, and actions.
I don't know whether you've consulted a world almanac, encyclopedia, or even the internet lately, or ever, but were you to do so you'd find, likely much to your surprise, that the hammer and sickle is not exclusively a symbol of the former Soviet Union and its particular brand of communism. In fact, in a historical context, the hammer and sickle has been used as much by those professing socialist, but not Soviet Communist, ideas as by advocates of pure communism itself.
But, I suspect you won't be tracking with any of what I've just said.
Seems that some people love.
To be ignorant, that is.
I can accept that explanaition of why you did that if that is what you are offering. However, I think you did it for exactly the reasons I said. You know it is a symbol of past fear and hatred in this country and you were being divisive by casting it's shadow upon your enemy. If I am wrong, so be it. But, it is a classic strategy.
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2008, 09:36:21 AM
Is it ok if I hate both the playa and the game?
Post by: K Frame on June 27, 2008, 09:36:34 AM
Sometimes, throught chance or luck, you may even be right.
But most often, as is the situation in this case, you'll be very, very wrong.
Personally, I don't give a damn if you "accept" my explanation or not. Your ill-conceived perception is not in the least important to me.
Post by: K Frame on June 27, 2008, 09:37:05 AM
"Don't be hatin'!"
Is it ok if I hate both the playa and the game?
Is it ok if I hate both the playa and the game?
Only if you attach some symbolic image.
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2008, 09:39:11 AM
Post by: roo_ster on June 27, 2008, 09:42:19 AM
If you think MI did it because of hatred, as you wrote, do please provide some supporting data. From my experience, MI is neither shy no is he prone to mealy-mouthedness (keyboardedness?).
Data, man, not feelings.
Having read excerpts from BHO's first book, it is clear his sympathies lie with the socialists and he is alienated from America, its culture and its institutions. He made a conscious decision to associate with socialists and other radicals during college and continued that association afterwards.
Pairing him with socialist symbols is thus appropriate. If he does not now like the pairing, he should have thought about that when (as an adult) he was hanging out with his socialist buddies and palling it up with Dohrn & Ayers.
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 09:43:06 AM
Do I get banned if I disagree with an administrator?
Post by: roo_ster on June 27, 2008, 09:52:14 AM
Plenty of folks 'round here disagree on issues with admins, myself included. I have not, to the best of my knowledge, accused them of hatred because of those differences. Because I have not seen any data to support such an allegation.
You plainly wrote that another member posted an image because he hated BHO or..something. Substantiate your personal allegation or have the stones to retract.
Post by: freakazoid on June 27, 2008, 09:55:57 AM
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(given what happened/is happening in communist states)
lol, a communist state is an oxymoron. Communism is stateless.
Everyone who keeps saying he is a Marxist is wrong. If he was then why do actuall communists/socialists say that they wouldn't vote for him, or anybody for that matter, Democrat or Republican.
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2008, 09:57:18 AM
The poster doth protest too much.....................
Do I get bannedif I disagree with an administrator? for being an evasive tool?
Do I get banned
God let's hope so.
Post by: Nick1911 on June 27, 2008, 10:03:12 AM
The poster doth protest too much.....................
Do I get banned if I disagree with an administrator?
Do I get banned if I disagree with an administrator?
You can disagree with who ever you want without getting banned, if you do so in a civil way.
From this, and other posts of yours, let me offer you some advice: If you want to be taken seriously here, you need to back up anything you assert as factual with data from an un-bias source.
Post by: K Frame on June 27, 2008, 10:07:52 AM
Exactly.
I requested that he prove that I have a hatred-based bias against Senator Obama using statements here, or elsewhere.
The request was ignored. Not surprising.
You won't be banned for disagreeing with an admin.
You can be banned, however, for making scurrilous accusations against another member of this board, administrator or not.
Post by: Scout26 on June 27, 2008, 10:43:41 AM
Obama has left a clear trail of being a leftist, if anyone would bother to look.
El Tejon has meet and talked with the man personally, in his home.
I live in the state that was a State Senator and is currently a US senator. I know his record.
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 02:40:16 PM
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"If you think MI did it because of hatred, as you wrote, do please provide some supporting data."
You are right on this one. Absolutely right. I should have never said what I thought about MI's motives. And you are also right that there is no way to substantiate what you think someone else is thinking. For that I am truly sorry that I said it on a public forum.
However, there are a lot of other people that are not held to account for the accusation that have been made toward people like myself, ShootingStudent and others who have proposed less popular views. People have accused me of being a spokesperson for Obama. People have made unfair generalizations about me because I had an opposing view and called me troll and other things.
So, if it is fair to say IM is innocent until proven guilty, why is if fair to say people who have an opposing view are guilty until proven innocent? I am man enough to admit that I was out of line for telling IM that I did not believe his motives, I am glad to accept apologies from anyone who is "man enough" to own up to what they said. And, no I am not going to scour previous threads for examples and call people out one by one. They know who they are. And, If I don't hear from them, I will know who is man enough.
Post by: Grandpa Shooter on June 27, 2008, 03:51:01 PM
Can we get back on topic here. Not one of you has offered anything by way of enlightenment as to what Obama's principles are. I have heard or read all of the inflamatory rhetoric thank you. Can we get back on topic and get you kind folks helping me gain some insight into Obama. I have a good read on McCain. Can't stomach Hillary and company. I have no experiential background for understanding Obama. Different generation, different faith base, different cultural baggage, etc. I grew up in a small town with only anglos of European descent, lived in a large metropolitan area which rapidly grew to be multi-cultural, while my neighborhood stayed predominantly anglo. I now live in a rural mountain area which is, you guessed it, predominantly anglo (mostly LDS).
I am sincere about wanting help understanding. I did not post this thread to solicit vitriol or diatribes against anyone.
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 04:11:30 PM
I will tell you that the I am most compelled by Obamas statements regarding corruption and campaign refinance. This is one of my most important issues because I think corruption is our countries biggest problem. A lot of our smaller problems are just symptoms of the larger problem that is corruption.
When he speaks at rallys he almost always dedicates significant time to the subject of special interest and corruption. What a President can do and what he would actually do about it remains to be seen. I think the congress is where it has to be done. But he is actually talking about it. I hope that the light he sheds on it will make a difference in itself.
Post by: grampster on June 27, 2008, 04:50:01 PM
Obama would be well versed in those two areas as he is the handmaiden of the Chicago/Daley/Blago machine.
Jfruser's comments about Obama come from Obama's own writing from some time ago. I would put more validity on that than anything on the Obama for President website which would be an exercise in electioneering propaganda.
One is also known by the company one keeps. I know in my case, I do not go out of my way to hang around with people who have disagreeable opinions.
I keep waiting for Obama to say that the only reason he has hung around with the people he has for all of his adult life is that he wanted to fully understand the viewpoints of the people that he totally disagrees with.
Post by: Glock Glockler on June 27, 2008, 05:20:28 PM
I must have been imagining the USSR, Red China, East Germany, Castro's Cuba, ect.
Everyone who keeps saying he is a Marxist is wrong. If he was then why do actuall communists/socialists say that they wouldn't vote for him, or anybody for that matter, Democrat or Republican
Ok, so someone is or is not a Marxist not based upon their beliefs and actions but rather what other people say about him?
Thanks.
Post by: old school on June 27, 2008, 05:35:58 PM
Sorry GrampaShooter, you deserve better quality answers.
Post by: freakazoid on June 27, 2008, 06:42:31 PM
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I must have been imagining the USSR, Red China, East Germany, Castro's Cuba, ect.
Those are not, have not ever been, a communist society.
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Ok, so someone is or is not a Marxist not based upon their beliefs and actions but rather what other people say about him?
Don't you think that people that actually are what you claim him to be, Marxist/communist/socialist, would know better on whether or not he is one? His beliefs are not communist. Where exactly has he said that he wishes to get rid of the state and put the workers in control of their means of production? No where, he just want's to make the state bigger, not abolish it.
Post by: Glock Glockler on June 28, 2008, 02:23:44 AM
Claiming that makes it so much easier to dismiss the complete failure that Marxism is. Whenever a group claiming to support Marxism takes over a state the standard of living plumets and large numbers of people are murdered by the state.
Where exactly has he said that he wishes to get rid of the state and put the workers in control of their means of production? No where, he just want's to make the state bigger, not abolish it
How, exactly, does one put the workers in control of production? If I own a factory it's mine, how do the "workers" get control of it? Government force! The funny thing is that Communists/Marxists never actually get around to dissolving the state, all one ever sees is the government seizing all property, lovely model.
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 28, 2008, 02:46:36 AM
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Those are not, have not ever been, a communist society.
You need to read Das Kapital again.
Post by: freakazoid on June 28, 2008, 06:15:04 AM
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You need to read Das Kapital again.
Haven't read it yet.
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Claiming that makes it so much easier to dismiss the complete failure that Marxism is.
And the US is a democracy and land of the free right? Because it must be true if that is what our rulers say.
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Whenever a group claiming to support Marxism takes over a state the standard of living plumets and large numbers of people are murdered by the state.
That seems to happen to a lot of different groups.
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How, exactly, does one put the workers in control of production?
That is a discusion for another topic.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on June 28, 2008, 06:32:21 AM
Post by: seeker_two on June 29, 2008, 03:31:45 AM
Enough with the semantic masturbation already.
Yeah....quit rubbin' it in, already....
Post by: Silver Bullet on June 29, 2008, 07:58:12 AM
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What does Obama stand for ?
Probably something like,
Our Brother Against Middle America
I haven't copyrighted this. Please feel free to improve on it !
Post by: alex_trebek on June 30, 2008, 05:16:17 AM
Here is a link to Obama's voting record. http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490
Since he "flip-flops" as much as any other politician, I recommend you let simply let his record speak for its self. IMO, he is just like any other politician. If his lips are moving...... This seems to be about the best anyone can do, even his supporters have a hard time proving that he walks the walk.
Post by: Manedwolf on June 30, 2008, 05:18:43 AM
Good.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 30, 2008, 06:28:59 AM
1. Anyone coming out of Chicago politics will have to really prove to me that they are NOT corrupt. Wasn't there a "friend" of Obama who was recently convicted of fraud or corruption?
2. The only campaign finance reform I want to see is to get rid of all the campaign finance reform. When you hear those words, you should automatically substitute "incumbent protection reform". I believe I heard someone point out a while back that turnover in Congress was higher before the first campaign finance reform was enacted. It is impossible to take the money out of politics. It won't happen and no amount of new laws will change that. Better to simply remove the limits and require 100% of all donations to anyone who is politically active to be reported immediately and publicly so we all will know who is getting money from whom. If George Soros wants to donate 10 million to a candidate, fine. I think a straight up donation would be better than Soros forming his own 501c organization and doing the same thing.
3. Yes, I know McCain's record on #2.
Post by: agricola on June 30, 2008, 07:42:08 AM
Post by: El Tejon on June 30, 2008, 07:48:13 AM
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. Anyone coming out of Chicago politics will have to really prove to me that they are NOT corrupt. Wasn't there a "friend" of Obama who was recently convicted of fraud or corruption?
That is a smart presumption. Living so close to Chicago and being an inmate of Chicago for 3 years, I would go further--all Chicago politicians have an irrebuttable presumption of being corrupt.
Tony Rezko is who you are thinking of. He gave Obama the sweetheart real estate deal when Obama was living on 54th in Park View East.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 30, 2008, 09:03:57 AM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on June 30, 2008, 09:07:04 AM
Post by: grampster on July 02, 2008, 10:44:45 AM
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. Anyone coming out of Chicago politics will have to really prove to me that they are NOT corrupt. Wasn't there a "friend" of Obama who was recently convicted of fraud or corruption?
That is a smart presumption. Living so close to Chicago and being an inmate of Chicago for 3 years, I would go further--all Chicago politicians have an irrebuttable presumption of being corrupt.
Tony Rezko is who you are thinking of. He gave Obama the sweetheart real estate deal when Obama was living on 54th in Park View East.
Ehhh, the newspaper today said the mortgage company gave him a sweetheart deal as well.
Post by: agricola on July 02, 2008, 11:03:38 AM
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. Anyone coming out of Chicago politics will have to really prove to me that they are NOT corrupt. Wasn't there a "friend" of Obama who was recently convicted of fraud or corruption?
That is a smart presumption. Living so close to Chicago and being an inmate of Chicago for 3 years, I would go further--all Chicago politicians have an irrebuttable presumption of being corrupt.
Tony Rezko is who you are thinking of. He gave Obama the sweetheart real estate deal when Obama was living on 54th in Park View East.
Ehhh, the newspaper today said the mortgage company gave him a sweetheart deal as well.
It may be worthwhile to note that an associate of Tony Rezko, Nadhmi Auchi, is (according to the last few issues of Private Eye busily engaged in threatening legal action against various papers in the UK:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3486054.ece
http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2008/03/who-is-nadhmi-a.html
http://capitalfax.blogspot.com/2008/02/rezkowatch-gets-letter-from-nadhmi.html