Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 06, 2008, 12:39:36 PM
Special court for vets addresses more than crime
By CAROLYN THOMPSON
Associated Press Writer
BUFFALO, N.Y.
The first clue that the Tuesday afternoon session in Part 4 of Buffalo City Court is not like other criminal proceedings comes just before it starts.
Judge Robert Russell steps down from his bench and from the aloofness of his black robe. He walks into the gallery where men and women accused of stealing, drug offenses and other non-violent felonies and misdemeanors fidget in plastic chairs.
"Good afternoon," he says, smiling, and talks for a minute about the session ahead.
With the welcoming tone set, Russell heads back behind the bench, where he will mete out justice with a disarming mix of small talk and life-altering advice.
While the defendants in this court have been arrested on charges that could mean potential prison time and damaging criminal records, they have another important trait in common: All have served their country in the military.
That combination has landed them here, in veterans treatment court, the first of its kind in the country.
Russell is the evenhanded quarterback of a courtroom team of veterans advocates and volunteers determined to make this brush with the criminal justice system these veterans' last.
"They look to the right or to the left, they're sitting there with another vet," Russell said, "and it's a more calming, therapeutic environment. Rather than them being of the belief that `people don't really understand me,' or `they don't know what it's like' _ well, it's a room full of folks who do."
If the veterans adhere to a demanding 1- to 2-year regimen of weekly to monthly court appearances, drug testing and counseling for any combination of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, depression, substance abuse or anger management, they could see their charges dismissed, or at least stay out of jail.
After counting 300 veterans in the local courts last year, the judge tailor-made the treatment court to address not only vets' crimes but their unique mental health issues.
Charles Lewis, who stood before Russell at a recent session, may be exactly the kind of defendant the judge had in mind. The 25-year-old acknowledged walking out in frustration from his last counseling session.
"We all know that you're a good person who at times has done some inappropriate things," Russell told him. "It's time to get past the nonsense, don't you think?"
Lewis nodded in agreement. A jet mechanic four years into what he thought would be a 20-year Navy career, he severely injured his leg on the flight deck of the carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt in 2004 and was discharged.
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Post by: Monkeyleg on July 06, 2008, 12:54:14 PM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 06, 2008, 12:59:46 PM
Post by: wmenorr67 on July 06, 2008, 08:02:12 PM
Post by: The Annoyed Man on July 07, 2008, 04:56:59 AM
As to this program, I think it's a good idea. I've got no problem giving people a second chance for non-violent offenses. And, tailoring the program to vets sounds like a good way to meet their needs.
I am a vet, by the way.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 07, 2008, 05:10:18 AM
As long as they don't carry that leniency over to the 3rd, 4th, or 23rd offense.
Post by: French G. on July 07, 2008, 06:54:19 AM
As far as the court I have no problem as a general idea, the current lock'em up hang'em high "correctional system" doesn't seem to correct much.
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 07, 2008, 07:38:30 AM
Nobody's calling the term "vet" a diagnosis, and I'd love to see where that is exactly in black and white. Granted, there are screw-ups in the military, yes. I even had to escort one to Leavenworth during the early days of my military career. I remember a sheriff's deputy bringing one recruit to the MEPS station, in lieu of a jail sentence. They either clean up their acts, or they don't last long in the military. Either way, they're a percentage of a percentage of the military force.
As a vet being treated for PTSD and adjustment disorder, I won't bore people with the numbers, but suffice it to say that the mental health facility in my local VA hospital is hardly suffering from non-use. Most are recent returnees from Iraq and Afghanistan, but there are a few Gulf War vets in there like myself.
In response to Monkeyleg's query, here's my take:
These are for the most part people who have been places and seen things that your average American citizen could only read about. They are otherwise sane people who were placed in austere conditions and expected to perform the unthinkable, day in, day out, and then turned loose on an unsuspecting civilian population. Truthfully, the Transition Assistance Program classes they give on the way out of the military are a total joke, and that's only a recent innovation. Those experiencing post-military difficulty may just need a little counseling from a regional VA case officer, or they may need something more in-depth. Or, as is often the case, they suck it up and try to integrate, with varying degrees of success. They often eschew the VA and the programs there, assuming they're even eligible for VA benefits. There's still a stigma attached to using the VA, I had to get over it myself. Regardless, all's well if they manage to integrate somehow, but if they don't, it gets ugly. I can honestly see some of the uglier cases getting in trouble with the law, and the judge in our title thread is doing a Good Thing with his program. He doesn't have to, but he also has at least some understanding of what his defendants may have gone through. Well done, Judge Russell!
Post by: Grandpa Shooter on July 07, 2008, 09:16:54 AM
I'm tired of "veteran" being some sort of diagnosis. If these clowns had been in the service whenever they did what they did to win a seat in court then they'd probably have been kicked out of the service. Which is probably how some of these retards got their start. What is the underlying theory in all this "veterans need special care" nonsense? I suspect it is "once a ward of the state, always a ward of the state." Something wrong, you got VA benefits, use them. Otherwise, man up and get on with life.
As far as the court I have no problem as a general idea, the current lock'em up hang'em high "correctional system" doesn't seem to correct much.
As far as the court I have no problem as a general idea, the current lock'em up hang'em high "correctional system" doesn't seem to correct much.
So you are willing to condemn every Veteran who has a readjustment problem to a life of long term punishment, when with the right approach by a fellow vet, that same individual can get on the right track and contribute as much to society as they did to the Nation through their military service.
I can think of a lot of things to say to you, but my good manners and upbringing don't allow it.
Post by: Balog on July 07, 2008, 10:15:50 AM
Post by: ilbob on July 07, 2008, 12:23:33 PM
Most other special purpose type programs (boot camp type jail, drug courts, etc.) have failed to make any appreciable difference in recidivism so I would not expect all that much. IMO, the problem is that we expect people to change fairly quickly, and the intense supervision only lasts a relatively short time. People do OK during the period of intense supervision, but fall back after it is over.
Post by: Ezekiel on July 07, 2008, 01:40:53 PM
So you are willing to condemn every Veteran who has a readjustment problem to a life of long term punishment, when with the right approach by a fellow vet, that same individual can get on the right track and contribute as much to society as they did to the Nation through their military service.
You are assuming that they contributed whilst in the military. These guys could have been Gomers from Day One.
If they are screwups, now, there are only two options: they either WERE screwups or the military MADE THEM screwups. (Which road shall we take and how long should we apologize for/coddle them?)
[sarcasm] Can I have a special court, too? Someone took my ancestors land and I have all of this post-traumatic stress, especially when I couldn't purchase Manhattan back... [/sarcasm]
Post by: Ezekiel on July 07, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
Post by: RevDisk on July 07, 2008, 05:18:01 PM
You are assuming that they contributed whilst in the military. These guys could have been Gomers from Day One.
If they are screwups, now, there are only two options: they either WERE screwups or the military MADE THEM screwups. (Which road shall we take and how long should we apologize for/coddle them?)
[sarcasm] Can I have a special court, too? Someone took my ancestors land and I have all of this post-traumatic stress, especially when I couldn't purchase Manhattan back... [/sarcasm]
If they are screwups, now, there are only two options: they either WERE screwups or the military MADE THEM screwups. (Which road shall we take and how long should we apologize for/coddle them?)
[sarcasm] Can I have a special court, too? Someone took my ancestors land and I have all of this post-traumatic stress, especially when I couldn't purchase Manhattan back... [/sarcasm]
You are correct. There are some folks in the military that are... less than optimal. Less than you probably assume. The overwhelming majority are pretty normal people.
One action doesn't necessarily mean they are a "screwup". Giving someone a second chance is not exactly coddling them, provided the offense wasn't THAT grevious. Buddy of mine got a similiar second chance. He was having a few issues adjusting and dealing with pain. Most of his issues involved a good friend of his being exploded by a near hit from an RPG. Under certain circumstances, bits and pieces of a human body actually can become projectiles. Requiring extensive surgery because you have chucks of bone embedded in your body that used to belong to a buddy can cause some undue stress. So he drank a bit when he got home because he believed going to therapy would probably kill his career. Naturally, got in a bar fight and ended up in the local jail.
Please explain to me why he shouldn't get a smack upside the head, manditory therapy and a ton of community service instead of doing X months in jail, killing his current career (and probably future ones) and making another soldier bitter at his own country? I'm not saying soldiers deserve special treatment, but circumstances SHOULD be taken into consideration on first offenders. Repeat offenders, not so much.
Is it just my perception, Ezekiel, or do you seem slightly biased against the military in general? Just curious and I realize it's probably personal, but what's the reason?
Post by: French G. on July 07, 2008, 05:38:14 PM
Quote
So you are willing to condemn every Veteran who has a readjustment problem to a life of long term punishment, when with the right approach by a fellow vet, that same individual can get on the right track and contribute as much to society as they did to the Nation through their military service.
I can think of a lot of things to say to you, but my good manners and upbringing don't allow it. angry
I can think of a lot of things to say to you, but my good manners and upbringing don't allow it. angry
Uhhh, here goes. First, I said I had no problem with the court but that is because of it being a somewhat novel approach within the criminal justice system, one that might be expanded to other folks, not just veterans.
Second, I just veteran'd myself after 14 years active and still playing weekend swabbie, so I'm not totally clueless on this. I expect to survive on my own merits in the world, not my hero worshiped status. I think a lot of folks crutching around on their vet status gave less than the heroes like the guy I opened the door for into the Waffle House the other night. He didn't want help, but he had no legs. I broke my leg training while in, F'd it up pretty good, I could get a check forever. Pins, plates and screws be damned, I walked to my ship on crutches 3/4 of a mile many times to make sure I didn't get limited duty. I served on that ship 2 more years.
My comments were not just at this article, I see lots of stories that think veterans should get special care. I think they should get quality care under the programs that exist. I don't think they should be treated as a special class of folks. I serve to protect a country that doesn't worship it's military like say the 3rd Reich did. I don't want to get spit on, but I'll take a quiet thank you and I'll remember the people I knew that didn't make it out of the service alive.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 07, 2008, 05:39:10 PM
"Most other special purpose type programs (boot camp type jail, drug courts, etc.) have failed to make any appreciable difference in recidivism "
really? your experience is different than mine.
and some other folks it seems
Recidivism rates
Recidivism rates for offenders who have graduated from drug courts are generally considerably better than recidivism rates of offenders who did not take part in a drug court program. The average recidivism rate for those who complete the drug court program is between 4% and 29%, in contrast to 48% for those who do not participate in a drug court program. A 2003 recidivism report by the Urban Institute and Caliber Associates, entitled, "Recidivism Rates For Drug Court Graduates: National Based Estimates", representative of over 17,000 annual drug court graduates nationwide, found that recidivism rates for drug court participants one year after graduation is a mere 16.5% and only 27.5% after two years. However, the report acknowledges that these numbers may underestimate the actual recidivism rates as they are based on FBI statistical information which may not included arrests which states did not report to the FBI.
In 2003 the Center for Court Innovation released a report which analyzed the impact of the New York State drug court system. The study found that the re-conviction rate among 2,135 defendants who participated in six of the states drug courts was, on average, 29 percent lower (13% to 47%) over three years than the for the same types of offenders who did not enter the drug court. Many local studies have found similar recidivism rates.
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=73569107530855&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=93f485ae,4f3c96ec&FORM=CVRE2
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 07, 2008, 05:42:52 PM
yes you can have that court but you have to move to its jurisdiction.
Post by: Ezekiel on July 07, 2008, 06:11:53 PM
Is it just my perception, Ezekiel, or do you seem slightly biased against the military in general? Just curious and I realize it's probably personal, but what's the reason?
I am biased against brainwashing and bureaucracies, in general, the military is just a fine example. (There are many others. Academia? Government? Not-for-profits?) That said, French does a nice job, in post 14, of detailing a position that I agree with.
I did take a hard look at myself, and I am just not the type that can exist in such systems. I paid good $$$ for personality types, etc. "ENTP" seems to equal outside of structured systems...
Post by: RevDisk on July 07, 2008, 06:33:14 PM
I am biased against brainwashing and bureaucracies, in general, the military is just a fine example. (There are many others. Academia? Government? Not-for-profits?) That said, French does a nice job, in post 14, of detailing a position that I agree with.
I did take a hard look at myself, and I am just not the type that can exist in such systems. I paid good $$$ for personality types, etc. "ENTP" seems to equal outside of structured systems...
I did take a hard look at myself, and I am just not the type that can exist in such systems. I paid good $$$ for personality types, etc. "ENTP" seems to equal outside of structured systems...
Brainwashing? The overlords must have erased it from my memory, as I don't recall any of that. Oh, some officer posturing hooah hooah stuff. Officers may be living in la-la land, but I assure you, the bulk of the enlisted realize how much is feel good BS. I realize it probably sounds a bit cliche or whatever, but... in the military, you tend to get out what you put in. Much like anything else in life from what I've seen. Military doesnt brainwash folks. Now some folks do brainwash themselves because they want to. These people are typically called "Marines".
Bureaucracies, though, you're spot on.
Ah, ENTP, the inventor model. Guess that makes you the eagle in your own atemperament theory.
Also called "Doesn't always play well with others". It's been a while since I had sociology, but as I recall, ENTP's don't fit into any assembly line scenerio too well. Well, that does explain a bit.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 07, 2008, 07:24:59 PM
Post by: Ezekiel on July 08, 2008, 06:08:42 AM
entp? that is a diagnosis. often self done. some less enlightened folks call it self indulgence. often has consequences
Bureaucratic systems reject you, sure: so I tend to just disdain them.
And -- free admission -- I do NOT always "play well with others."
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on July 08, 2008, 05:57:52 PM
"I do NOT always "play well with others."
you are not alone wife one mentioned it both before and after she escaped. though i did improve a lil when i quit getting wasted everyday