Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 16, 2008, 09:26:07 PM
Basically what I'm wondering is, would you support your state breaking away from the union? When you're voting please consider that if your state did break away there would probably be some kind of a civil war at least in your state and the rest of the union would send troops to support the loyalists etc.
Are you willing to die for a free state?
Post by: Manedwolf on July 16, 2008, 09:32:40 PM
And, no. This is silly, I see this only on Roooon Pauul boards, and it's a fantasy.
Post by: longeyes on July 16, 2008, 09:43:19 PM
The way things are going I would not bet against ANY political eventuality in the years to come. What sounds impossible today may sound inevitable in two or three years.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 16, 2008, 09:46:44 PM
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 16, 2008, 10:15:01 PM
I'm sure to many breaking away from England seemed impossible
Or in more recent memory
Canada came VERY close to losing about 25% of it's population with Quebec wanting to break away.
East Timor successfully seceded from Indonesia.
Singapore left the Malasian Union
Remember Yugoslavia? You've got 7 countries now!
Do I even need to bring up the USSR?
Countries break up, it's been going on for thousands of years,
It's my opinion that the Civil War was fought over less than what we have to fight over today but today we're far more... I dunno less prone to violent uprising or something. Maybe people are just more apathetic now that they have the Mrs. Hooters pageant to distract them.
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 17, 2008, 12:24:56 AM
"Secede".
And, no. This is silly, I see this only on Roooon Pauul boards, and it's a fantasy.
And, no. This is silly, I see this only on Roooon Pauul boards, and it's a fantasy.
Sure it's a fantasy. It still a legitimate topic for dicussion.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on July 17, 2008, 02:02:06 AM
The Federal gov't seceded from this Union a looooonnng time ago. I don't know what they call the show they're running now, but it isn't America.
I hold the federal government guilty of rebellion, so to speak.
Post by: El Tejon on July 17, 2008, 04:22:16 AM
1. I hate Cheetoes.
2. I do not live in my Mom's basement.
3. I have never owned a Wookie custom (although I have used the Chewbacca Defense in court).
Post by: Manedwolf on July 17, 2008, 04:29:31 AM
No and here's why:
1. I hate Cheetoes.
2. I do not live in my Mom's basement.
3. I have never owned a Wookie custom (although I have used the Chewbacca Defense in court).
1. I hate Cheetoes.
2. I do not live in my Mom's basement.
3. I have never owned a Wookie custom (although I have used the Chewbacca Defense in court).
Post by: Racehorse on July 17, 2008, 05:48:30 AM
Wookie custom
What's a Wookie custom? Is that a new brand of cigarrettes? A surfboard company? Or is it the latest model of environmentally friendly automobile?
"Hey dude, what're you driving?"
"Oh, man, that's my new Wookie custom! It gets 60 mpg and the engine sounds like Chewbacca!"
Or did you mean Wookie costume?
Post by: El Tejon on July 17, 2008, 06:16:34 AM
Typo Police=>
Post by: Racehorse on July 17, 2008, 06:19:31 AM
That gets into stuff I don't even understand.
Post by: longeyes on July 17, 2008, 06:19:50 AM
Quote
No and here's why:
1. I hate Cheetoes.
2. I do not live in my Mom's basement.
3. I have never owned a Wookie custom (although I have used the Chewbacca Defense in court).
1. I hate Cheetoes.
2. I do not live in my Mom's basement.
3. I have never owned a Wookie custom (although I have used the Chewbacca Defense in court).
And you don't wear a periwig either, Mr El Tejon.
Tories are always the last to know.
Post by: yesitsloaded on July 17, 2008, 06:25:09 AM
Post by: Jamisjockey on July 17, 2008, 06:28:05 AM
Post by: K Frame on July 17, 2008, 06:28:15 AM
Hum...
Let me fix that for you.
A Wookie Custom is what you wear when typing and listening to
There. That's much better.
Post by: Joe Demko on July 17, 2008, 06:32:08 AM
Post by: Tallpine on July 17, 2008, 07:38:17 AM
Quote
it's a fantasy
Just like the USSR breaking up
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 17, 2008, 08:11:46 AM
Quote
it's a fantasy
Just like the USSR breaking up
Post by: ilbob on July 17, 2008, 08:14:30 AM
It seems to me there are about 6 or 7 states or groupings of states that are large enough and diverse enough to be self sustaining, have similar cultures, and sea port access.
CA, NY, FL and TX would be obvious states to build new countries around.
It would not surprise me at all if the western provinces of Canada decided at some point they did not want to be part of Canada any more.
Post by: BridgeRunner on July 17, 2008, 08:22:10 AM
Seriously though, absolutely not, and not because I value the federal government more than the state government, but because I value the federal system, even as it stands today, and would prefer to have that multi-tiered government. For one thing, it can slow down the process of a single, tragic event leading to bizarre and awful sweeping legislation. The emotional boundaries of statehood are, imho, an important factor in protecting us from things like England's and Australia's handgun/semi-auto bans.
And yes, there are a bazillion holes in this argument, like the Patriot Act, and the very broad federal powers currently in place. I still think the principle works to a degree, and I like it. Incidentally, I also really, really like having complete freedom to travel within the US.
Post by: Balog on July 17, 2008, 08:24:47 AM
Quote
it's a fantasy
Just like the USSR breaking up
I agree. Where I think we disagree is whether or not we will reach a "badness level" similar to the USSR's. I think it's possible.
"That can't happen HERE!" is the bedrock belief of every fallen empire. When what makes America great is being lost more and more every day, why should we have such faith that we will remain as we have been?
Post by: Tallpine on July 17, 2008, 09:09:24 AM
Quote
it's a fantasy
Just like the USSR breaking up
Okay - well, in a year or two, then
Personally, I think the breaking point will be when the fed.gov totally screws up the economy, squanders our resources on hopeless and foolish foreign wars, and spends itself into oblivion.
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on July 17, 2008, 09:51:43 AM
Post by: Scout26 on July 17, 2008, 09:56:40 AM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 17, 2008, 10:03:36 AM
Quote
it's a fantasy
Just like the USSR breaking up
I agree. Where I think we disagree is whether or not we will reach a "badness level" similar to the USSR's. I think it's possible.
"That can't happen HERE!" is the bedrock belief of every fallen empire. When what makes America great is being lost more and more every day, why should we have such faith that we will remain as we have been?
Maybe we'll get there someday. Maybe. Until then, I won't agree that secession is anything more than fantasy (or folly).
Post by: longeyes on July 17, 2008, 10:09:48 AM
Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way. When that breaks down anything is possible. My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.
When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them. We already know there is a sense that this is two nations. Expect that sense to grow.
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on July 17, 2008, 10:40:02 AM
I have been blowing the secession horn for a while so I cannot refrain from joining the barfight.
Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way. When that breaks down anything is possible. My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.
When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them. We already know there is a sense that this is two nations. Expect that sense to grow.
Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way. When that breaks down anything is possible. My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.
When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them. We already know there is a sense that this is two nations. Expect that sense to grow.
because that worked out great last time [/sarcasm]the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.
so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...
Post by: roo_ster on July 17, 2008, 10:48:58 AM
Also, this time the PTBs would not be untouchable. Expect the leadership on both sides to take casualties.
Post by: longeyes on July 17, 2008, 10:58:40 AM
Quote
because that worked out great last time [/sarcasm]
the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.
so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...
the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.
so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...
Because something's traumatic and catastrophic doesn't mean it can't happen...or even that it's not worth it. Sometimes you have no choice, and when and if enough people feel that way it WILL happen.
I would assume people will foregather with people of like mind, if for better social and economic prospects if not personal security.
I think all of us would like to believe such an eventuality won't take place.
Post by: Balog on July 17, 2008, 11:06:29 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on July 17, 2008, 11:10:41 AM
I have been blowing the secession horn for a while so I cannot refrain from joining the barfight.
Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way. When that breaks down anything is possible. My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.
When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them. We already know there is a sense that this is two nations. Expect that sense to grow.
Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way. When that breaks down anything is possible. My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.
When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them. We already know there is a sense that this is two nations. Expect that sense to grow.
because that worked out great last time [/sarcasm]the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.
so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...
That's the problem. We have hardcore socialist liberals who want to take away all guns and traditional conservatives living next door to each other in every community.
Hard to draw battle lines when it's an infinitely complex patchwork!
Post by: BridgeRunner on July 17, 2008, 11:14:09 AM
That's the problem. We have hardcore socialist liberals who want to take away all guns and traditional conservatives living next door to each other in every community.
Hard to draw battle lines when it's an infinitely complex patchwork!
Hard to draw battle lines when it's an infinitely complex patchwork!
Yeah...but doesn't it feel reassuring to be on the side that actually has guns?
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on July 17, 2008, 11:14:25 AM
for the record i dont' see any glory in seccesion from the US, unless Hawaii or alaska are the ones succeeding.
Post by: Balog on July 17, 2008, 11:16:16 AM
i think some of ya'll may be confusing secession with restructure of the current establishment. seccession is when a bunch of cranky folks draw a line in the sand and say "we don't want to play with you anymore."
for the record i dont' see any glory in seccesion from the US, unless Hawaii or alaska are the ones succeeding.
for the record i dont' see any glory in seccesion from the US, unless Hawaii or alaska are the ones succeeding.
Given their frequent "STFU" stance towards the fed.gov, I'd think Montana would be the most likely candidate.
Post by: Tallpine on July 17, 2008, 12:07:37 PM
When that will happen and what that will look like is entirely open to speculation. Unfortunately, I fear that the USA will turn into an absolute dictatorship before it collapses. Simply put, the leaders are going to do everything they can to try to salvage the sinking ship - things that will of course make the situation worse over the long run.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on July 17, 2008, 12:54:40 PM
Whether it's NY, CA, AZ or TX, there are dirty unwashed hippies, illegal immigrants, bitter-clingers and Paulians intermingled together in various percentages.
A second Civil War would probably end up as a war of attrition, coming close to a form of political genocide or purging. It would then draw the UN to come and "keep the peace" on top of it all, further pissing off the bitter-clingers and Paulians to protract this war of attrition.
The US could Balkanize after a couple years of this. I know that if things began moving that direction in AZ, I would move elsewhere. If the FedGov won't get behind border security soon, AZ will be another Mexican province in maybe 10 years. I think there's between 1.5 and 2 million illegals just in my state.
Post by: seeker_two on July 17, 2008, 01:13:14 PM
But I do take heart that Texas will probably end up being independent again with lots of foreign support due to our energy and trade resources.....all we need is for FN, Beretta, or HK to build their next factory here....
Post by: Physics on July 17, 2008, 01:27:42 PM
Quote
Yeah...but doesn't it feel reassuring to be on the side that actually has guns?
Except the "other" side (the military/government) has nukes, jets, tanks, etc... and they have guns too.
Quote
Unfortunately, I fear that the USA will turn into an absolute dictatorship before it collapses. Simply put, the leaders are going to do everything they can to try to salvage the sinking ship - things that will of course make the situation worse over the long run.
Damn, I just finished "Atlas Shrugged". Sounds a little bit familiar, that's kinda scary, we have already taken some steps in this direction.
Didn't Montana legislators send a letter to fed.gov saying that if Heller vs. DC went the collective right way, that they were going to secede?
Post by: lee n. field on July 17, 2008, 01:29:50 PM
Quote
would you support your state breaking away from the union?
My state? Only if we leave Chicago behind. Otherwise it would be some accursed little Daley fiefdom.
Post by: Tallpine on July 17, 2008, 01:46:30 PM
Quote
Didn't Montana legislators send a letter to fed.gov saying that if Heller vs. DC went the collective right way, that they were going to secede?
Not exactly ...
What they said was that a non-individual rights interpretation of the 2A would violate and invalidate the compact admitting Montana into the union.
The rest is left to the imagination
Post by: BridgeRunner on July 17, 2008, 01:51:09 PM
Quote
Yeah...but doesn't it feel reassuring to be on the side that actually has guns?
Except the "other" side (the military/government) has nukes, jets, tanks, etc... and they have guns too.
Well, I was responding to a comment more on civil war than on secession. Tell a couple extreme liberals about how .gov is all on their side and watch them laugh uproariously while weeping in despair and frustration. There's a reason they want Obama.
Post by: stevelyn on July 17, 2008, 03:24:34 PM
Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language.
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.
Post by: De Selby on July 17, 2008, 03:40:13 PM
Yes, but I would like to take Yukon and Northwest Territories with me and establish an autonomous region of all three as one.
Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language.
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.
Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language.
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.
Sounds good to me.
But I want a guaranteed social policy-massive government investment in a project to make Alaska and the Yukon warm enough for mammals under 10,000 lbs.
Post by: grampster on July 17, 2008, 03:42:00 PM
) I am ProConsul, Admiral of the navy (So far we have a 17 foot Glastron I/O, 135 HP)Chairman of the Staff of Joints and Any Other Post Deemed Necessary.
Upon landing, we will declare war on the United States and then immediately surrender and ask for foreign aid and reconstruction money.
We're gonna have some really sharp uniforms.
Anybody else like to join up? We will be issuing Letters of Marquis regarding any shipping in the area. The Glastron gets pretty good mileage when the seas are calm. We can probably upgrade once the foreign aid starts rolling in.
Post by: stevelyn on July 17, 2008, 04:00:11 PM
Yes, but I would like to take Yukon and Northwest Territories with me and establish an autonomous region of all three as one.
Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language.
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.
Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language.
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.
Sounds good to me.
But I want a guaranteed social policy-massive government investment in a project to make Alaska and the Yukon warm enough for mammals under 10,000 lbs.
Sorry, can't do that. The colder temperatures act as riff-raff repellent.
But we'll give you a set of Carhartts and a pair of LaCross Iceman's if you wish to immigrate.
Post by: longeyes on July 17, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
But that's now.
The migration of peoples for political reasons has already begun, just as has migration for economic reasons. Why do you think Californians--I mean conservatives--are leaving this state in droves?
We are slowly but surely sorting ourselves out and drawing lines and taking sides. All it will take to precipitate a true schism is one or more dramatic acts, which may be of a political nature or possibly cultural.
People can be pushed only so far. If, for example, Prop. XIII were to be repealed in California by the leftists, all bets are off.
Post by: Tallpine on July 17, 2008, 04:58:13 PM
Let them go peacefully
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 17, 2008, 09:35:10 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h3XJXz_apas
Wookie appears at around the middle of the video.
I find this to be amusing and creative.
People on APS seem to find it ridiculous/stupid. YMMV.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on July 18, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Choice a) Listen to the Star Wars nerds stand up for the U.S. Constitution and try to bring liberty back to this country as an actual issue.
Choice b) Listen to the clean shaven, respectable-looking men in suits that rob the people and chisel away at our freedoms.
Tough choices there, folks.
Post by: El Tejon on July 18, 2008, 02:53:59 AM
Quote
I find this to be amusing and creative.
I find these people in their mom's basement eating Cheetoes and not working.
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 18, 2008, 03:02:01 AM
Quote
I find this to be amusing and creative.
I find these people in their mom's basement eating Cheetoes and not working.
"Very not. Mike, you want to discuss nature of humor. Are two types of jokes. One sort goes on being funny forever. Other sort is funny once. Second time it's dull. This joke is second sort."
Post by: xavier fremboe on July 18, 2008, 04:09:00 AM
I have given this idea some thought. It might eventually come down to some kind of breakup if thats what it takes to get the size of government under control.
It seems to me there are about 6 or 7 states or groupings of states that are large enough and diverse enough to be self sustaining, have similar cultures, and sea port access.
CA, NY, FL and TX would be obvious states to build new countries around.
It would not surprise me at all if the western provinces of Canada decided at some point they did not want to be part of Canada any more.
As a Texan, I would fully support the secession of California and New York.
It seems to me there are about 6 or 7 states or groupings of states that are large enough and diverse enough to be self sustaining, have similar cultures, and sea port access.
CA, NY, FL and TX would be obvious states to build new countries around.
It would not surprise me at all if the western provinces of Canada decided at some point they did not want to be part of Canada any more.
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 18, 2008, 08:47:47 AM
I know a whole family from Arizona who wants to move to California (or Canada) because they don't agree with the rightist politics in Arizona. My wife and I are moving from Canada to Arizona (I'm a US Citizen) to get away from the leftist politics here and get involved in keeping/moving AZ even more to the right.
Maybe AZ wouldn't make a good country on it's own but heck I think AZ, NM, TX and some others could get along just fine. Maybe the rest of America could just amputate CA, NY and DC
Post by: Manedwolf on July 18, 2008, 08:48:55 AM
longeyes is so right, people are already emmigrating from the leftist states to other states and the other way around.
I know a whole family from Arizona who wants to move to California (or Canada) because they don't agree with the rightist politics in Arizona. My wife and I are moving from Canada to Arizona (I'm a US Citizen) to get away from the leftist politics here and get involved in keeping/moving AZ even more to the right.
Maybe AZ wouldn't make a good country on it's own but heck I think AZ, NM, TX and some others could get along just fine. Maybe the rest of America could just amputate CA, NY and DC
I know a whole family from Arizona who wants to move to California (or Canada) because they don't agree with the rightist politics in Arizona. My wife and I are moving from Canada to Arizona (I'm a US Citizen) to get away from the leftist politics here and get involved in keeping/moving AZ even more to the right.
Maybe AZ wouldn't make a good country on it's own but heck I think AZ, NM, TX and some others could get along just fine. Maybe the rest of America could just amputate CA, NY and DC
Problem here is the leftists come to NH to get away from failed MA, for the "quality of life"...and then they vote for the same crap that ruined the place they fled!
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 18, 2008, 08:49:42 AM
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 18, 2008, 08:51:58 AM
Post by: longeyes on July 18, 2008, 08:59:43 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on July 18, 2008, 09:01:39 AM
Yeah Manedwolf you should encourage rightists in other more left states to join the free state project (http://www.freestateproject.org/) so they can drowned out all the people trying to ruin NH. When AZ and TX make a new country we'll send an army of diggers to come liberate NH and graft it onto the gulf coast ok?
GOOD GOD NO!!!!
We're trying to get them to LEAVE!
All they do is cause public scenes, get themselves arrested, scream things about Ron Paul and "9/11 being an inside job" in public, embarrass the state badly in the national media, and otherwise make absolute nuisances of themselves. Their idea of "protest" is to speed in a car without registration or a license, then throw themselves to the ground and make the police carry them to the cruiser...and then have others go march around the jail wearing "V for Vendetta" costumes. Oh, and they're also currently endangering open carry by continually trying to start something with cops, so they can get hassled on video over it. Their antics have brought the US Marshals to Manchester not once, but twice, now. Everything they do and have done has caused the leftists to have a PR victory.
EVERYONE I know around here wants them to get the hell out and go elsewhere! They're basement-dwellers X100!
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 18, 2008, 11:01:15 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on July 18, 2008, 11:04:33 AM
Well then you can move to Main and all the nutters can live in one state... maybe they'll get somewhere and end up living free, in basements but free.
No, THEY can move to Maine. Or to Mass, if they want to fight to "free" a state. They're just nutty basement sorts, they just want attention. Probably people who didn't get enough attention from their parents as children, I have no idea. They just keep getting arrested when they do stupid things like not register a car, then claim it's "oppression".
We were here first, and the state was just fine before they came! Best way to piss off a New Englander is to be a carpetbagger coming in and telling people you're going to "change" things.
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 18, 2008, 11:27:57 AM
And not everyone who think there should be change dresses up as a bear and gets arrested for strange stuff. and if they don't want to register a car how does that effect their driving ability? I'm all for licensing driving but the registration is a cash grab.
Post by: Balog on July 18, 2008, 11:34:58 AM
Maned has a few pet peeves, if you will, of which the FSP outranks even CGI movies and high fructose corn syrup. Even tho he's originally from Florida, he despises "carpetbaggers" and thinks NH is what G-d was really talking about when he referred to the Promised Land.
While I agree that not everyone in the FSP is a raving lunatic, it does seem to attract a rather disproportionate percentage of them. And as with any group the vocal idiots are the ones who get all the press. I think most of the realistic and dedicated members of that little political "movement" bailed after the vote to goto NH instead of Wyoming or some other place with a low enough population that they might actually be able to make a difference.
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 18, 2008, 11:38:03 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on July 18, 2008, 11:43:50 AM
While I agree that not everyone in the FSP is a raving lunatic, it does seem to attract a rather disproportionate percentage of them. And as with any group the vocal idiots are the ones who get all the press. I think most of the realistic and dedicated members of that little political "movement" bailed after the vote to goto NH instead of Wyoming or some other place with a low enough population that they might actually be able to make a difference.
From what I have researched, the original intentions were nothing like what's ended up here, no. If some of the original organizers are in Wyoming, I don't know.
I just know that what ended up here, taking over its name, are the worst sorts of Ron Paul-obsessed anti-government anarchist conspiracy theorists and basement-dwelling loons, a group that's managed to piss off every local resident they come in contact with, and seems to equate "protest" with "get arrested as many times as possible."
I think what really broke it for most people was when they ruined the Nashua Holiday Walk (think Currier and Ives print, people just walking along holiday-lit 19th century Main Street with children, shops open late with special displays, cafes open, carolers and music) ...by marching in a large group with signs along the street bellowing "ROOON PAUL!" at the top of their lungs. It was not a political event. It was completely out of place. One lady even wrote into the paper that it'd scared her kids and ruined the evening.
Then, chasing Sean Hannity around Manchester like a crazed mob on national TV, screaming that "Fox News Sucks!"...that was just icing on the cake for local embarrassment.
News headlines like "US Marshals in Manchester to question Brown supporters"...with detail that some among the Free State Movement here had been questioned for threatening violence over the arrest of the tax frauds from their armed bunker, that didn't exactly meet with public approval, either. I'm sure that didn't exactly please the originator of the movement, really. It seems to have been hijacked by the conspiracy nuts.
Post by: Balog on July 18, 2008, 11:48:13 AM
From what I have researched, the original intentions were nothing like what's ended up here, no. If some of the original organizers are in Wyoming, I don't know.
I just know that what ended up here, taking over its name, are the worst sorts of Ron Paul-obsessed anti-government anarchist basement-dwelling loons, a group that's managed to piss off every local resident they come in contact with.
I just know that what ended up here, taking over its name, are the worst sorts of Ron Paul-obsessed anti-government anarchist basement-dwelling loons, a group that's managed to piss off every local resident they come in contact with.
Yeah, when I first heard of the FSP I was really excited. A bunch of freedom minded people move to a couple sparsely populated counties in a sparsely populated state, where they will be able to start at the lowest levels then gradually influence the entire politics of the state. It's how the effing libertarians would do things if they weren't almost terminally incompetent at politics. Get your ideas at work in the school boards and local government, then move up from there. Instead they spend most of their money on doomed bids for Potus. /sigh
Post by: MechAg94 on July 18, 2008, 11:59:34 AM
longeyes is so right, people are already emmigrating from the leftist states to other states and the other way around.
I know a whole family from Arizona who wants to move to California (or Canada) because they don't agree with the rightist politics in Arizona. My wife and I are moving from Canada to Arizona (I'm a US Citizen) to get away from the leftist politics here and get involved in keeping/moving AZ even more to the right.
Maybe AZ wouldn't make a good country on it's own but heck I think AZ, NM, TX and some others could get along just fine. Maybe the rest of America could just amputate CA, NY and DC
That is one thing I like about the US govt system or what it could be if the Feds would get out of the way. You have 50 states that could all do their own thing and people could live wherever they want based on what they want to put up with, without leaving the country. With so many programs done at the federal level, that gets harder and harder.
I know a whole family from Arizona who wants to move to California (or Canada) because they don't agree with the rightist politics in Arizona. My wife and I are moving from Canada to Arizona (I'm a US Citizen) to get away from the leftist politics here and get involved in keeping/moving AZ even more to the right.
Maybe AZ wouldn't make a good country on it's own but heck I think AZ, NM, TX and some others could get along just fine. Maybe the rest of America could just amputate CA, NY and DC
Post by: Grandpa Shooter on July 19, 2008, 04:16:31 AM
Is there going to be a social and political upheaval in the US? Most likely, but about 40 years late.
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 19, 2008, 05:05:10 AM
Post by: MagnumDweeb on July 19, 2008, 07:01:10 PM
Let's be honest, California needs redivision into three different states, allowing the good rural folk to have their own, left the city folk whom embrace lesser standards of capitalism(or embrace destructive socialism) and morality (I don't mean San Fran, the gays really cleaned it up and made it nice last I saw of it, could do with more of them in Orange County Florida), and let those whom are either refugees of Mexico or outright seekers of citizenship to have their own, but no we should not let any piece of America go. Illinois's citizens need to get together and rewrite their state constitution to take the singurlarly concentrated powers of statehood away from Chicago's provincial domination, I believe a good many folks of Illinois are in the middle of some such effort. Now D.C., what good can be said is so gravely countered almost biblically in proportion to that which can be said to be ill. Detroit, well another complaint. New Orleans, give Lousiana a festering sore upoin its great identity as a state.
As there has been an explosion of weakness, socialist embrace, and Pro-European(unfortunately not like Switzerland or Finnland in some respects) that critically stains this nation, secession is not the answer, rather we must continue (those of us who are patriots) to push for a return to true democracy within the embrace of a Republic, work to instill in a people a sense of pride in hardwork and the effort to bette one's self be it mentally, academically, spiritually what have you, and work to make it understood to our politicians that they bow to us and not us who bow to them, besides I'm pretty sure I could kick the living crud out of a few of them, all those guns they have behind them just means their weak and lowly, for once what fear a Roman Senator had to walk alone without guard in the streets of his people.
Alas my words are only pretty ones I'm sure, the sickness still spread and we shall see what the future holds. I'm an American, I pay my loyalties and respects to the United States and the Constitution so long as their is still the Bill of Rights. Any country without the Bill of Rights is not an American country and to them I owe no loyalty, no respect. Just as I would not stand to have China decide my rights, to others I would no greater observation and tolerance. As I see it, the worst that can happen is I get to heaven a little sooner or if I get lucky I get to Valhalla where there is Beer, willing and wanting tall gorgeous blondes, and plenty of fighting to be had. But that's just me. LOL
Post by: freakazoid on July 20, 2008, 06:54:05 PM
Quote
Funny. I've never lived in a basement
lol, I used to for a while. There is no shame in it, it is nice and cool down there, y'all just jealous,
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 20, 2008, 07:06:01 PM
On that note, perhaps ManedWolf should remember that even the nuts on the far right have just one vote the same as the nuts on the far left, and they might be embarrassing but when was the last time someone in a wookie costume tried to take away your rights and tell you they have your best interests in mind?
No getting arrested for stupid stuff, wrecking events and hooting and hollering isn't going to fix or change things but isn't it amazing and wonderful that they are allowed to continue to do that and fight for what they believe in, even if they do it in a bizarre way.
Post by: Hugh Damright on July 21, 2008, 07:02:25 AM
Quote
California needs redivision into three different states ... secession is not the answer
If California is too big to be one State, then couldn't it also be that the US is too big to be one Union? Isn't it the same kind of thing?
As for "giving up part of America", Virginia does not belong to Americans, it belongs to Virginians.
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 21, 2008, 08:03:00 AM
Virginia does not belong to Americans, it belongs to Virginians.
Exactly so if the rest of America doesn't like CA and NY dictating it's politics then why does it continue to allow this to happen? It's terrible.
Post by: El Tejon on July 22, 2008, 09:41:50 AM
Quote
Funny. I've never lived in a basement.
The soil is too rocky there. I note that you said nothing about a wookie custome and Cheetoes.
Quote
As for "giving up part of America", Virginia does not belong to Americans, it belongs to Virginians.
Well, the West Virginians thought so.
And Virginia DOES belong to America when Bobby Lee threw in the towel at Appomattox.
Post by: seeker_two on July 22, 2008, 12:25:08 PM
And Virginia DOES belong to America when Bobby Lee threw in the towel at Appomattox.
Only because the Confederate gov't couldn't get their act together and supply his troops......never let someone from Lousiana be in charge of supply during a crisis.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis
Post by: FiveBillionAcres on July 22, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Post by: Hugh Damright on July 22, 2008, 12:57:30 PM
Quote
And Virginia DOES belong to America when Bobby Lee threw in the towel at Appomattox.
This same polticial view was asserted on another thread, and I thought we learned then that the US Constitution is a compact between the States. It does not frame one big State where Virginia belongs to Americans ... that is a vision of national government, but the US Constitution frames a government with a federal foundation. When Lee surrendered, the US Constitution still framed a limited federal government.