Post by: Manedwolf on August 06, 2008, 04:55:41 AM
Quote
Scientists puzzle over source of county hot spots
A burning question
By Zeke Barlow
Wednesday, August 6, 2008
High atop a steep grass-covered mountain overlooking the Little Sespe Canyon near Fillmore, the earth is on fire.
Wisps of smoke rise from a brown patch of grass that looks like it was toasted under an oven's broiler. Deep down, under the dirt, rocks and grass, something is smoldering and burning, sending smoke through cracks in the parched soil.
It's being called a natural anomaly, a geological whodunit, a scientific puzzler. And it's the second time that scientists have been scratching their heads over the fact the earth under Ventura County is burning.
In 2004, a patch of land northwest of Ojai burned so hot, it started a brush fire that scorched three acres in Los Padres National Forest. Firefighters cleared the grass from the newest area of hot earth near Fillmore on Friday so the same thing won't happen..
Though the outcome of both circumstances is the same ground hot enough to delaminate boot soles the reasons they started are likely very different. But both are equally fascinating to those who make their living examining rocks and sediment.
"This is a lot of fun," said Allen King, a former geologist with the U.S. Forest Service who has studied both sites. "I'm retired, but this is what I love to do."
The leading theory behind the latest hot spot is that gas or oil or some other hydrocarbon deep in the soil caught fire and is burning, pushing ground temperatures to 812 degrees. What ignited it or when it started burning is a whole other question.
"We don't know how long this particular thing has been burning," King said.
Firefighters have responded to the area five times since 1987, at times dumping water into the ground to try to quash the flames. King said a landslide hit the area within the past 100 years or so, possibly creating enough friction to start a fire. Another theory is that the land is so dry and parched that all moisture has been sapped from the ground, making it more susceptible to ignition. King said it's possible that some spark on land caused the underground blaze. How long it will burn is anyone's guess.
Such fires aren't uncommon in areas where there is a high concentration of gas or oil underground, he said.
But while the origins of this fire may be a relatively common phenomenon, the one near Ojai is still a puzzle.
"We've been researching it for a while and don't have all the answers," said Scott Minor, a U.S. Geological Survey researcher based in Denver who has made multiple trips to the site. "It's like detective work."
He and other scientists, including King, are hoping to publish a paper on their findings that may be a geologic first.
The anomaly was discovered after the land got so hot, it started a brush fire and burned three acres. Their theory is that there are high concentrations of pyrite commonly called fool's gold deep in the earth that were oxidized and converted to another mineral when a flush of oxygen was introduced after a landslide. The oxygen could have come from new fissures in the earth.
The process of converting to a new mineral was an exothermic reaction, releasing heat that could have sparked old carbon-based material decayed wood or plants that started the underground blaze.
King stuck a thermometer 14 inches into the ground and got a reading of 550 degrees. One time, the ground was so hot, the glue holding the sole of his boots melted. Grass can burn at 300 degrees.
"After that we were more cautious about standing in one place for too long," he said.
Minor said if a landslide were indeed a factor, it could be a new geologic discovery. The research group he's working with would like to drill down into the earth to see if the materials support the theory but is faced with a few hurdles. The first is funding and the second is the fact that the area is in the Dick Smith Wilderness, where no machinery is permitted.
Until then, the scientists are having fun trying to solve the puzzle.
"It's always neat when you explore something that is new and something that hasn't been documented before," Minor said. "It's fun to speculate, but it's a lot more satisfying when you can nail it down."
E.W. Scripps Co.
http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/aug/06/a-burning-question-scientists-puzzle-over-source/
Post by: Standing Wolf on August 06, 2008, 05:07:46 AM
Post by: Ben on August 06, 2008, 05:20:52 AM
Post by: Dntsycnt on August 06, 2008, 05:26:54 AM
I blame demons. Has to be demons.
Post by: El Tejon on August 06, 2008, 05:40:02 AM
Post by: Paragon on August 06, 2008, 05:43:59 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on August 06, 2008, 05:45:45 AM
That's awesome.
I blame demons. Has to be demons.
I blame demons. Has to be demons.
As long as they don't dig deeply there, looking for mithril...
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 06, 2008, 05:46:53 AM
My mistake.
Post by: MechAg94 on August 06, 2008, 05:55:31 AM
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on August 06, 2008, 06:14:20 AM
Drill there, drill now! Think of the grass children.
Post by: seeker_two on August 06, 2008, 06:43:01 AM
Drill there, drill now! Think of the grass children.
Is that what they're calling the stoners now?....
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 06, 2008, 06:46:13 AM
Post by: 280plus on August 06, 2008, 07:29:19 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on August 06, 2008, 07:36:33 AM
Chris
Post by: wmenorr67 on August 06, 2008, 07:38:02 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on August 06, 2008, 07:43:36 AM
Centralia, Pa is still burning I believe.
Chris
Chris
It is. There are journal websites. Only a few houses left, and a sad stone with a time capsule to be opened on the next centennial. It was placed well before the fire.
Post by: mtnbkr on August 06, 2008, 07:44:21 AM
Chris
Post by: K Frame on August 06, 2008, 07:51:45 AM
I was there a number of times while the town was still inhabited, and once since.
There's not a lot to see.
Some whisps of steam and smoke from vents, a few houses that are still occupied, and sections of roads that used to serve the town. Virtually all of the houses have been torn down.
Post by: K Frame on August 06, 2008, 07:56:21 AM
A picture of the borough of Centralia...
Or what used to be the borough.
Post by: Manedwolf on August 06, 2008, 08:14:11 AM
Quote
The fire continues and has moved up into the cemetery, smoke visible wafting up from around the gravestones.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 06, 2008, 08:25:15 AM
Post by: mike on August 06, 2008, 08:39:26 AM
Post by: 280plus on August 06, 2008, 08:45:41 AM
Post by: Tallpine on August 06, 2008, 08:54:33 AM
Every now and then it pops to the surface and starts another wildfire.
Post by: Ben on August 06, 2008, 09:48:35 AM
Quote
Drill there, drill now! Think of the grass children.
Actually the Fillmore area is part of the local oil patch. It's the coastal waters we're trying to get them to drill in around here.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 06, 2008, 10:51:54 AM
Quote
Well sir, I know the abandoned coal mines under Scranton, PA caught fire and burned for years.
Quote
Centralia, Pa is still burning I believe.
Wow. So I guess that was what the movie Silent Hill was based off of?
Post by: alex_trebek on August 06, 2008, 11:31:57 AM
Quote
Well sir, I know the abandoned coal mines under Scranton, PA caught fire and burned for years.
Quote
Centralia, Pa is still burning I believe.
Wow. So I guess that was what the movie Silent Hill was based off of?
Yep it is.
Quote
Is Silent Hill based on a real place?
While the supernatural and religious elements of Silent Hill are fictional, the story of a town ravaged by the fires of its own mining industry is true. Centralia, Pennsylvania was a coal mining community of some 1,000 people. In 1962, a trash fire set in an abandoned mine site ignited a dormant vein of coal. Fumes from the underground blaze, cracks and sinkholes formed in the unstable earth, and other problems eventually led to the evacuation of the town. Although millions of dollars were spent trying to extinguish the blaze, it still burns beneath the town, making it nearly uninhabitable. Despite this fact, some residents, including the town's longtime mayor, remain firmly grounded in Centralia.
One of Silent Hill's screenwriters, Roger Avary, encountered the story of the town while working on revising the screenplay and incorporated elements of its history into the film. (Source: http://silenthill.ugo.com/features/realsilenthill/default.asp)
While the supernatural and religious elements of Silent Hill are fictional, the story of a town ravaged by the fires of its own mining industry is true. Centralia, Pennsylvania was a coal mining community of some 1,000 people. In 1962, a trash fire set in an abandoned mine site ignited a dormant vein of coal. Fumes from the underground blaze, cracks and sinkholes formed in the unstable earth, and other problems eventually led to the evacuation of the town. Although millions of dollars were spent trying to extinguish the blaze, it still burns beneath the town, making it nearly uninhabitable. Despite this fact, some residents, including the town's longtime mayor, remain firmly grounded in Centralia.
One of Silent Hill's screenwriters, Roger Avary, encountered the story of the town while working on revising the screenplay and incorporated elements of its history into the film. (Source: http://silenthill.ugo.com/features/realsilenthill/default.asp)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384537/faq#.2.1.11
Post by: K Frame on August 06, 2008, 11:34:32 AM
No no NO!
More drilling is not the answer!
If you drill now, you won't have more mine fires for at least 10 years!
Post by: just Warren on August 06, 2008, 11:37:40 AM
If you had one on your property would you tell anyone or would you just plumb for steam and go off the grid?
Post by: 280plus on August 06, 2008, 01:22:40 PM
Post by: French G. on August 06, 2008, 03:08:54 PM
Post by: K Frame on August 06, 2008, 03:31:44 PM
It seems a LOT of these mine fires were started by burning trash dumps. They used the leftover holes for dumps and when they caught fire they touched off the exposed coal seams. I never knew it was so prevalent.
You never knew that?
You're originally from Pennsylvania, right?
I thought everyone knew that the state sport is filling holes in the ground with trash...
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on August 06, 2008, 10:28:10 PM
Now if you meant that it was the idea for the whole coal fire part then I agree.
Post by: 280plus on August 07, 2008, 01:07:33 AM
It seems a LOT of these mine fires were started by burning trash dumps. They used the leftover holes for dumps and when they caught fire they touched off the exposed coal seams. I never knew it was so prevalent.
You never knew that?
You're originally from Pennsylvania, right?
I thought everyone knew that the state sport is filling holes in the ground with trash...
Never knew the whole trash hole sport thing.
From what I could tell at the reunions another sport is to get killed in car accidents. They're like squirrels out there. I'd say half the HS "Dead List" is car accidents. I figure it's the narrow windy roads.
Post by: K Frame on August 07, 2008, 02:03:40 AM
Pretty much, yep.
Roads are twisty, alcohol is a major factor in many such accidents, and it normally happens while they're on the way back from a rousing round of filling a hole in the ground with trash.
Post by: 280plus on August 07, 2008, 03:17:02 AM
yea, they do seem to love their beer.
I drew several looks of shock and awe when I said, "Yea, I don't drink much beer these days."
Oh, to fill in a blank, the family moved back to Hartford, CT area while I was in which explains why I never went back. I think about retiring to the backwoods, I love it out there. But then again, I don't want to move out there just to fill holes with trash, set coal seams on fire and get killed in a car wreck. Or eaten by a bear, that would suck too...
Post by: K Frame on August 07, 2008, 05:56:45 AM
Bear find virtually all the food they need in piles of trash that have been put in holes in the ground.
Post by: 280plus on August 07, 2008, 10:50:08 AM
No I did a little walk along the gravity railroad beds up in the mt cobb area and there I was way into the woods when it dawned on me that i could easily become bear chow (lot's of black bear around there) and had nothing but a damn walking stick to prevent it. I decided to skedaddle right back on out of there. Funny I used to walk the same trails as a kid and thought nothing of it.
Post by: K Frame on August 07, 2008, 11:00:54 AM
Post by: Tallpine on August 07, 2008, 01:15:21 PM
You would have been just fine had you taken some trash to put in a hole in the ground.
And a match to light it on fire
Post by: 280plus on August 07, 2008, 01:45:33 PM