Post by: yesitsloaded on August 08, 2008, 03:41:10 AM
TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Russian television Friday showed a convoy of Russian tanks and said they were heading into the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia as escalating tensions over the region threatened to boil into full blown conflict.
Georgian troops fire rockets at separatist South Ossetian troops from an unnamed location not far from Tskhinvali.
The move came after Russia denounced as "aggressive" a Georgian troops military offensive to regain control over the province, vowing to respond.
Russian authorities earlier said several of its peacekeepers died in a Georgian attack in South Ossetia, which borders Russia and has strong ties to its vast northern neighbor, and they vowed not to leave Russian citizens in the territory unprotected.
"The Georgian leadership has launched a dirty adventure," a statement from Russia's Defense Ministry said on Friday. "We will not leave our peacekeepers and Russian citizens unprotected."
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said Georgia started the fighting and warned that Russia would respond to their actions.
"Heavy weapons and artillery have been sent there, and tanks have been added. Deaths and injuries have been reported, including among Russian peacekeepers," Putin said in comments carried Friday by Russia's Interfax news agency. Video Watch more about the increased violence in Georgia »
"It's all very sad and alarming. And, of course, there will be a response."
Earlier Friday, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said in a televised statement that Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.
He added that there were injuries and damage to buildings. "A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," he said.
A Georgian official reported that seven people were hurt in the attack, the Associated Press said.
Saakashvili urged Russia to immediately stop bombing Georgian territory. "Georgia will not yield its territory or renounce its freedom," he said.
He also called for the full-scale mobilization of Georgian reserve forces as fighting continued to rage in South Ossetia's capital.
Meanwhile, NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer issued a statement Friday saying he was seriously concerned about the recent events in the region, and called on "all sides to end armed clashes and begin direct talks."
The United States also urged all sides to bring an immediate end to the violence. "The U.S. has been in discussions for many months with all parties to find a peaceful resolution," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.
"We urge all sides to refrain from violence and to begin direct talks."
Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.
The latest events came just hours after the U.N. Security Council finished an emergency session to discuss a dramatic escalation of violence in Georgia and South Ossetia. The session ended Friday morning without a statement about the fighting.
Violence has been mounting in the region in recent days, with sporadic clashes between Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists. South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia in the early 1990s, but its independence is not internationally recognized.
Georgian troops launched new attacks in South Ossetia late Thursday after a top government official said a unilateral cease-fire offer was met with separatist artillery fire.
"The objective of the operation is to protect the civilian population, to ensure their security and then convince the separatists that there is not a military solution to this conflict," said Alexander Lomaia, the secretary of Georgia's National Security Council.
Lomaia said Georgian troops were responding proportionately to separatist mortar and artillery attacks on two villages -- attacks he said followed the cease-fire and call for negotiations by Saakashvili.
The official news agency of the South Ossetian government reported heavy shelling in the territory's capital, Tskhinvali, that left dozens of buildings ablaze.
About 2,000 Georgian troops attempted to storm Tskhinvali overnight and were regrouping south of the city, according to Russia's ITAR-TASS news agency.
Around 10 a.m. Friday, Georgia said Russian military aircraft violated Georgian airspace and dropped two bombs on Kareli, a part of Georgia that is about 50 miles northwest of the capital, Tblisi, and is not in the conflict zone, said Shota Utiashvili, spokesman for the Georgian Ministry of Interior.
Georgia, located on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey, has been split by Russian-backed separatist movements in South Ossetia and another region, Abkhazia.
Georgian and South Ossetian negotiators had been scheduled to meet Friday in Tskhinvali, Moscow's chief negotiator, Yuri Popov, told the Russian news agency Interfax.
Saakashvili announced Thursday night that he had ordered his troops to cease fire while the negotiators met, but Lomaia said the call was met with more attacks.
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In addition, Lomaia said, hundreds of "mercenaries" -- or "volunteers," as the South Ossetians described them -- are pouring across the border from Russia to join the fight.
The commander of a Russian peacekeeping mission has told Georgian officials that his troops are unable to control the situation.
There goes the neighborhood.
Post by: Manedwolf on August 08, 2008, 03:49:54 AM
Missile fire and heavy artillery fire have been reported in Tskhinvali, with "many buildings on fire". There's also apparently fighting between mechanized armor going on.
There goes the neighborhood, indeed.
Post by: wmenorr67 on August 08, 2008, 04:03:51 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on August 08, 2008, 04:08:14 AM
Why do they always have tank fights in the villages in Europe? Every single war, they do that.
Post by: PTK on August 08, 2008, 04:23:51 AM
Post by: MechAg94 on August 08, 2008, 05:15:22 AM
Sounds like a typical European war, in that, as usual, villages have been destroyed in the artillery and armor fighting. Tskhinvali is "almost completely destroyed", witnesses have now reported, and a number of other villages got to be battlegrounds for tank fights, apparently.
Why do they always have tank fights in the villages in Europe? Every single war, they do that.
Houses provide concealment I guess for tanks, vehicles, and anti-tank infantry.
Why do they always have tank fights in the villages in Europe? Every single war, they do that.
Post by: HankB on August 08, 2008, 05:45:28 AM
Sounds like a typical European war, in that, as usual, villages have been destroyed in the artillery and armor fighting. Tskhinvali is "almost completely destroyed", witnesses have now reported, and a number of other villages got to be battlegrounds for tank fights, apparently.
Why do they always have tank fights in the villages in Europe? Every single war, they do that.
If you go to Tskhinvali on Google Earth and switch on "terrain" you'll see the place is in a natural valley between mountains, with plains to the south . . . a natural funnel/choke point where armor is concerned.
Why do they always have tank fights in the villages in Europe? Every single war, they do that.
Post by: Manedwolf on August 08, 2008, 05:53:53 AM
That is NOT a place you'd want to be right now.
Though when it comes to "tank style", people from that area still have it down. This is a Georgian tanker from a photo today:
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 08, 2008, 08:00:21 AM
Of course, he's probably sitting in a T-55 going up against T-90s and Migs, but I guess it isn't the size of the dog in the fight . . .
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 08, 2008, 08:24:33 AM
Why do they always have tank fights in the villages in Europe? Every single war, they do that.
Wouldn't you expect villages and towns to be located at the cross-roads, the bridges, the fords, etc?
Post by: Dntsycnt on August 08, 2008, 08:25:38 AM
Post by: Gewehr98 on August 08, 2008, 08:34:39 AM
Depending on what it's chambered for, either 5.45x39, or 7.62x39, it can be quite loud and obnoxious. I paid a bunch for my 7.62x39 NFA semiauto variant, but it is indeed a kick in the pants. Here's one in 5.45x39 (it could be a domestic 5.56x45 variant, too)
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 08, 2008, 09:56:48 AM
An interesting, and unsettling quote.
Quote
Mr Saakashvili, a US-educated lawyer who succeeded Eduard Shevardnadze in 2004 and has since tried to align it more closely to the West, compared the Russian action with the invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and appealed to the outside world to intervene.
"Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory," he told CNN as Russian armour rolled into South Ossetia.
"Its not about Georgia anymore. Its about America, its values: we are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack."
"Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory," he told CNN as Russian armour rolled into South Ossetia.
"Its not about Georgia anymore. Its about America, its values: we are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack."
Post by: One of Many on August 08, 2008, 10:27:19 AM
The Russians encourage the local separatists to attack the Georgian defense forces, then when the Georgian national troops respond, Russia calls it a provocation justifying the invasion. It is a sham to cover a planned takeover of territory belonging to Georgia, and conversion of that territory to Russian Control. If the UN and NATO allow this to happen, you will see the same thing repeated in other areas where the locals don't want to be governed by their national government. The locals don't want to be governed by Russia either, but they will use Russia for a while to obtain their independence from federal control, then they will revolt against Russia at a later time.
The locals that are loyal to Russia are evacuating the area, so that most of the deaths will be among those that support the Georgian Federal government. The Russians will claim that the damages done to the towns and villages was caused by the Georgian troops, even though most of the power in the region is in the hands of the Russian military. Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?
If and when the Russians withdraw, Georgia will be looking at a region that has had its economy destroyed, and massive costs to rebuild. Russia will not provide any of the costs to rebuild. If Russia defeats Georgia, then Russia will rebuild the region and force all of the Georgian citizens out of the area, repopulating it with only Russian people from the nearby areas, and the Russian citizens that occupied the area in order to justify the attack in the first place.
This is a well planned and carefully orchestrated attempt to takeover a part of a neighboring country, not unlike Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. The question is will the UN, NATO and the US have the courage to take military action to kick Russia out of the region as Hussein was after his invasion? Russia is betting that they will not, because of the size, military power, and economic clout that Russia has.
Post by: lupinus on August 08, 2008, 10:29:38 AM
Be interesting to see what sort of response the west, and especially America NATO in particular, give Russia over this.
If your citizens are in a war zone helping them get out is fine. Full blown assaults are not covered by that excuse.
Though I think it would be hilarious if Georgia kicks Russian troops in the ass and holds them off.
Post by: ssn vet on August 08, 2008, 10:35:21 AM
Putin's pay back for Kosevo!
Quote
If your citizens are in a war zone helping them get out is fine.
The setting of the stage for this little party has been going on since '89. Russia started issueing passports to the Georgian Ossetians a couple years ago, creating the basis for them "protecting our people".
Quote
This is a Georgian tanker from a photo today:
if he's alive tomorrow, he'll be one of the lucky ones.....did you catch the photos of burning Georgian armor?
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,4780,00.html#8_0
Post by: lupinus on August 08, 2008, 11:12:05 AM
Quote
The setting of the stage for this little party has been going on since '89. Russia started issueing passports to the Georgian Ossetians a couple years ago, creating the basis for them "protecting our people".
Speaking purely hypothetically of course, don't have faith they are legitimately doing so.
Post by: Manedwolf on August 08, 2008, 11:55:21 AM
"Oh hai, we just invaded Georgia. A city got blown to hell and there's a lot of tanks."
Poor George. Probably had to go down a bottle of Pepto.
Post by: seeker_two on August 08, 2008, 11:56:42 AM
Quote
Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?
Wonder, if things get desperate for the Georgians, we'll find out that Georgia has been hiding a few of those missing Russian nuclear "slingshots"?.....
Post by: xavier fremboe on August 08, 2008, 12:46:05 PM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 08, 2008, 12:46:52 PM
Check out the map. The Russians are about to take Savannah.
Post by: MechAg94 on August 08, 2008, 02:05:22 PM
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA
Check out the map. The Russians are about to take Savannah.
That is classic! Check out the map. The Russians are about to take Savannah.
Post by: xavier fremboe on August 08, 2008, 02:42:49 PM
Post by: lupinus on August 08, 2008, 03:36:15 PM
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA
Check out the map. The Russians are about to take Savannah.
Check out the map. The Russians are about to take Savannah.
Post by: De Selby on August 08, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:
The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. If anything, they want to be part of Russia.
Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.
Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...
And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 08, 2008, 05:59:01 PM
текумцех шерман is at the head of the column marching to the sea.
I had a cousin... flunked the math at cop school, so she got a degree in Russian...
Post by: MechAg94 on August 08, 2008, 06:30:08 PM
Wait a second here:
Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:
The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. If anything, they want to be part of Russia.
Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.
Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...
And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Have you even read the posts on this thread?
Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:
The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. If anything, they want to be part of Russia.
Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.
Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...
And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Post by: wmenorr67 on August 08, 2008, 08:00:11 PM
Wait a second here:
Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:
The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. If anything, they want to be part of Russia.
Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.
Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...
And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Have you even read the posts on this thread? Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:
The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. If anything, they want to be part of Russia.
Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.
Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...
And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Does he ever read posts, even his own?
Post by: De Selby on August 08, 2008, 08:23:36 PM
Have you even read the posts on this thread?
Yes, including the title: "...Russia has started a war"
Post by: seeker_two on August 09, 2008, 04:42:45 AM
Post by: roo_ster on August 09, 2008, 05:06:43 AM
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Post by: Manedwolf on August 09, 2008, 08:48:39 AM
Post by: roo_ster on August 09, 2008, 08:55:10 AM
No, It's Not Good At All
Posted By Laughing_Wolf
The last couple of weeks have been intense, and the hours long, so think of what follows as something of a day journal note a la the Original Blog. I know that my lack of time is a problem for some, but this is some food for thought that I think needs to be out there as a follow-up to COB6's posts here and here, even though I don't have the time to flesh it out as I would like. For those that want or need to know, I used to write about the Soviet Union -- in particular it's space-related activities -- and did as my Master's thesis a tome entitled The Soviet Watchers: A Directory of Western Observers of Soviet Space Efforts. That said, here are the day notes on why I think the invasion of Georgia is not good at all. Especially with news this morning that Georgia has formally declared a state of war to exist, and that the Russians appear to have sortied portions or all of its Black Sea fleet (possibly aiming at Abkhazia) and claim to now control the capital of South Ossetia. Note also the Clinton-era pols rushing to declare Georgia dead as a potential NATO member and not worthy of much support...
Even though Georgia was a part of Russia and then the Soviet Union, there has always been a bit of friction there. Under Russia, it was seen as a buffer against non-Christians and other threats. Under the Soviet Union, it still served that role but was also open to a larger exploitation -- which has helped create part of the situation now faced. Even the ghost of Stalin plays into this, as he was not Russian but a Georgia boy (yee-haw) who outmaneuvered both the Moscow and St. Petersburg factions to take control. That is something neither faction has ever forgotten, and in some ways never forgiven.
It is worth noting that Putin, who is in charge no matter what title he currently holds, is of the St. Petersburg faction, and is the first to come back to leadership from said faction in quite a while. Interestingly, what he is doing right now in Georgia is more in the Moscow style, but with some interesting fillips that are St. Petersburg in origin, IMO.
This is nothing less than a direct challenge to the U.S. and an effort to break the Georgian government so as to put back into power the pro-Russia group (or even under direct control). The surface cause is one that has been built up over the last several years, with Russia pushing as hard as it could get away with internationally to put in "peacekeepers" openly and arm/support the rebels not terribly clandestinely. There have been several previous attempts to spark a reaction from Georgia, including direct incursions into Georgian territory, incursions into Georgian airspace, and even attacks on Georgian aircraft and other assets. Behind it lies several factors.
First, there is the fact that Russia wants to control the border states just as it did before. They have not been shy about it in some of the other states, but Georgia and Ukraine both had something the others didn't: resources. The poorer countries with no major resources, lack of communications (and interest in them by the world community), and no major prospects were fairly easy to control. Georgia and Ukraine, however, have a variety of other resources and have more developed relations with the rest of the world. That said, Russia tried very openly and even ham-handedly to control them and to rig elections so that the Russian-controlled factions would win. They need those states as a buffer, and have not taken the failures there with anything approaching good grace.
Second, there are some strategic resources at play, including oil. Remember that Georgia was a major part of the old Silk Road, which interestingly enough today could almost be thought of as the jihad road given that the hot-spots of jihad from western China to eastern Europe follow this route. Trade has been a part of Georgia not for centuries, but easily a millennia or three. A lot of oil and natural gas flow through Georgia, including a good bit of Russian -- and Georgia hasn't been as easy to blackmail as Europe in this regard. Energy, minerals, food, trade -- Russia really, really wants control again.
Third, Georgia has not just turned away from Moscow, it has openly embraced the West and minor things like free-market capitalism, which is opening doors even wider for concepts of individual liberty, freedom, etc. This is an anathema on its own, but the thought of having that message seen by the restive provinces nearby is enough to give any of the powers/power factions in Moscow absolute conniptions.
Fourth, that embracing of the West has meant an embracing of Western (primarily American) military thought and equipment. It has meant an effort to join NATO, that Putin expended considerable effort and resources to defeat. Even without being able to join, Georgia has continued to work to integrate its forces into being able to work with NATO troops and equipment (meaning U. S. forces) and has, I believe, openly indicated its willingness to work on future systems and development -- including missile defense.
Fifth, despite its efforts to upgrade and improve its forces, the fact that Georgia has been unable to deal with the Pankisi Gorge is more than a major irritant to Moscow. The Gorge is haven to groups that have dealt Russia multiple defeats and bloody noses in Chechnya and has resisted Russian, Georgian, and purportedly other efforts to deal with it. The additional problem, in Moscow's eyes, is that Georgia is reaching a point where it might could deal with it -- which means it also could deal with Russia on an equal or even superior footing militarily and diplomatically. Russia wants very much to deal decisively with the Gorge, but having anyone else do it is extremely problematic. The current situation works for them, in that it gives them leverage on the Georgian government and, if they do move in, a claim on Georgian territory. Georgia knows this very well, which is why they have never given permission for Russia to move in and deal with it. Break the Georgian military, break the problem..
Sixth, this is also a semi-indirect attack against the United States and its alliances. Note multiple statements from Medvedev and Lavrov aimed at those who have trained/armed/encouraged Georgia. Not only is it in part a preemptive move against future missile-defense are related activities, it is a direct move against current missile defense via the Czech Republic and other eastern European countries. Russia has already stated that it would view any such as an act of aggression and that a military response was likely. Part of what is being done now is to show the Czech's and others that being an ally doesn't mean the U.S. really will defend you. If we don't back our ally against a direct military attack here, the lesson is clearly made that the U.S. will not do anything about an attack on their territory. It could also be the start of an effort to make the case that attacking our missile defense in another country is not really an attack on us, but a justifiable action (in the eyes of the U.N., certain so-called international courts, and in particular the European Union courts and ministries). Yet, if we do aid our ally, particularly if we do so strongly, it raises the spectre of a direct conflict between the U.S. and Russia, not to mention jeopardizing any number of ongoing efforts. It even raises the possibility (and I have little doubt that this point is already being raised by Moscow) of Russia reducing or even cutting off gas and oil to Europe for any number of excuses. The EU member states would, I fear, not even hesitate before throwing Georgia -- and even the US -- to the bear, as it were.
Seventh, I think Russia is very well aware that this would also have a strong negative effect on the War on Terror. Destabilizing Georgia will create the potential for a strong and even prolonged pulse of people and supplies along the "Jihad Road" headed both East and West. That this would also tend to cause destabilization in western China as well as in the Balkans works well for Russia. It allows them to regain or seize control of sections of the Balkans, and block moves by the U.S. and parts of Europe to bring order and nurture some emerging democracies. It also causes problems for current ally and long-term rival China. Russia has never mistaken short-term advantage via working with China for anything other than what it is, and if they can weaken or hurt China even as they use China against the U.S., all the better. Final thought, if you break up the alliances, much of what we have done and are working on will fail. It is not inconceivable that Russia may also be looking long term at even further expansion.
Also, if you think that the timing of this such that all major world leaders are in China for the Olympics is a coincidence, then I have some land I would like to sell you. I would very much love to know what is being openly and quietly said in Beijing right now, as I am just about willing to bet cash money that the Chinese are backing the Russian play. China has its own reasons to want this, including Taiwan. Fail to back an ally, bad enough. Cut and run, and the world-wide results would be catastrophic.
Those of us who used to monitor the Soviet Union have seen some of this coming for a while. The open events, such as the murder of Anna Politkovskaya was a clear indication that the Soviet-era methods were back in play, while the nasty and showy murder of Alexander Litvinenko made points lost on no one paying attention. These are two of the best known events, but many more have died, disappeared, etc. over the last few years who were even a minor threat to Putin and those working with him. They are willing and able to play for keeps, and I think they will be more than willing to escalate things in Georgia to levels we have not seen in several decades.
LW
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 09, 2008, 09:17:35 AM
Funny how the Russians are saying the U.S. is arming the Georgians. All I see is Russian designed equipment. Maybe the missiles they are shooting down Migs with are American?
On a slightly related question.
How come the Soviets couldn't find and exploit all of this oil that now funds Putin's desires for Empire?
Post by: Regolith on August 09, 2008, 09:44:53 AM
And WW4 is off and running. Now lets see if they can or will stop the snowball from running down hill. I for one am backing the Georgians. Although I don't agree with their stance on Ossetia. If the people of that region voted (and they did) for independence from Georgia then let them go be a part of Russia. Not much in that spot as it is.
Funny how the Russians are saying the U.S. is arming the Georgians. All I see is Russian designed equipment. Maybe the missiles they are shooting down Migs with are American?
On a slightly related question.
How come the Soviets couldn't find and exploit all of this oil that now funds Putin's desires for Empire?
Funny how the Russians are saying the U.S. is arming the Georgians. All I see is Russian designed equipment. Maybe the missiles they are shooting down Migs with are American?
On a slightly related question.
How come the Soviets couldn't find and exploit all of this oil that now funds Putin's desires for Empire?
WW4? Did I miss WW3 or something? Could have sworn there were only two...
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 09, 2008, 09:49:33 AM
Post by: De Selby on August 09, 2008, 11:04:37 AM
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing."
There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia.
That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.
Post by: agricola on August 09, 2008, 11:15:07 AM
Post by: lupinus on August 09, 2008, 12:34:07 PM
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing."
There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia.
That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.
If after enough Mexican nationals cross the boarder into say, oh, California and hold a vote they want to be part of Mexico the US should in no way shape or form block that? Up to an including force?
Post by: De Selby on August 09, 2008, 01:13:20 PM
So SS.
If after enough Mexican nationals cross the boarder into say, oh, California and hold a vote they want to be part of Mexico the US should in no way shape or form block that? Up to an including force?
Uh, you do realize that this is what the Georgians did to South Ossetia right? The Ossetians are a different ethnic group from the Georgians, and that's why they've been fighting....Georgia.
We're not dealing with immigrants here-we're dealing with the natives who don't want to be part of Georgia, and apparently do not mind being part of Russia (there's already a big group of them in Russia in their own state of North Ossetia.)
So what's the comparison you're drawing, exactly?
Post by: De Selby on August 09, 2008, 01:14:47 PM
I suppose this all depends on what happens next. If Russian forces stay in South Ossetia and there isnt the ethnic cleansing that occured during the first war, this will probably be alright. If they take over Georgia as a whole, it wont.
Agreed-this could turn very ugly.
Of course it would be a breathtaking exercise in hypocrisy for Russia to fight this war under the banner of stopping Georgia from forcibly subduing South Ossetia....but then to invade and conquer Georgia.
Does unbelievable hypocrisy bar this kind of action in Russia, though? Not so sure about that...
Post by: roo_ster on August 09, 2008, 04:23:51 PM
http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589/
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 09, 2008, 07:46:50 PM
Russia has been occupying the breakaway region, and had the "peacekeepers" there to establish a claim on the territory. Many of the citizens there have Russian citizenship, so that Russia can claim the right to enter and use force to "protect" their citizens. It is much like the "possession is nine tenths of the law" proverb concerning disputed property.
The Russians encourage the local separatists to attack the Georgian defense forces, then when the Georgian national troops respond, Russia calls it a provocation justifying the invasion. It is a sham to cover a planned takeover of territory belonging to Georgia, and conversion of that territory to Russian Control. If the UN and NATO allow this to happen, you will see the same thing repeated in other areas where the locals don't want to be governed by their national government. The locals don't want to be governed by Russia either, but they will use Russia for a while to obtain their independence from federal control, then they will revolt against Russia at a later time.
The locals that are loyal to Russia are evacuating the area, so that most of the deaths will be among those that support the Georgian Federal government. The Russians will claim that the damages done to the towns and villages was caused by the Georgian troops, even though most of the power in the region is in the hands of the Russian military. Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?
If and when the Russians withdraw, Georgia will be looking at a region that has had its economy destroyed, and massive costs to rebuild. Russia will not provide any of the costs to rebuild. If Russia defeats Georgia, then Russia will rebuild the region and force all of the Georgian citizens out of the area, repopulating it with only Russian people from the nearby areas, and the Russian citizens that occupied the area in order to justify the attack in the first place.
This is a well planned and carefully orchestrated attempt to takeover a part of a neighboring country, not unlike Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. The question is will the UN, NATO and the US have the courage to take military action to kick Russia out of the region as Hussein was after his invasion? Russia is betting that they will not, because of the size, military power, and economic clout that Russia has.
The Russians encourage the local separatists to attack the Georgian defense forces, then when the Georgian national troops respond, Russia calls it a provocation justifying the invasion. It is a sham to cover a planned takeover of territory belonging to Georgia, and conversion of that territory to Russian Control. If the UN and NATO allow this to happen, you will see the same thing repeated in other areas where the locals don't want to be governed by their national government. The locals don't want to be governed by Russia either, but they will use Russia for a while to obtain their independence from federal control, then they will revolt against Russia at a later time.
The locals that are loyal to Russia are evacuating the area, so that most of the deaths will be among those that support the Georgian Federal government. The Russians will claim that the damages done to the towns and villages was caused by the Georgian troops, even though most of the power in the region is in the hands of the Russian military. Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?
If and when the Russians withdraw, Georgia will be looking at a region that has had its economy destroyed, and massive costs to rebuild. Russia will not provide any of the costs to rebuild. If Russia defeats Georgia, then Russia will rebuild the region and force all of the Georgian citizens out of the area, repopulating it with only Russian people from the nearby areas, and the Russian citizens that occupied the area in order to justify the attack in the first place.
This is a well planned and carefully orchestrated attempt to takeover a part of a neighboring country, not unlike Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. The question is will the UN, NATO and the US have the courage to take military action to kick Russia out of the region as Hussein was after his invasion? Russia is betting that they will not, because of the size, military power, and economic clout that Russia has.
Very good analysis. Russia, of course, is incredibly hypocritical in this, because Russia has zero tolerance for the separatists in their own territory who want to shake off the Russian yoke, but Russia is happy to foment discord in Georgia. And Russia is well aware that the U.S. and NATO are already stretched too thin in Iraq and Afghanistan, so that even if we felt an inclination to join in the fun -- we ain't got nothin' available to play with.
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 09, 2008, 07:56:02 PM
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing."
There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia.
That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.
Ummm ... South Ossetia IS part of Georgia. Georgia is not trying to force South Ossetia to join their country, they are trying to prevent a group of separatists to split it off from Georgia.
Post by: De Selby on August 09, 2008, 08:52:49 PM
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing."
There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia.
That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.
Ummm ... South Ossetia IS part of Georgia. Georgia is not trying to force South Ossetia to join their country, they are trying to prevent a group of separatists to split it off from Georgia.
Yeah, but this claim doesn't hold much water when you ask yourself and answer a simple question:
How did South Ossetia come to be part of Georgia?
Answer: It was taken by force when Georgia became a country for the first time in several centuries very recently.
It's not like this is some ancestral piece of a sovereign state-it was always unruly and never wanted to be part of an independent Georgia, and it ended up so because that's simply where the cards fell at the end of the Soviet Union.
Georgia has no more right to this land than Russia has to claim Georgia as part of Russia.
Post by: De Selby on August 09, 2008, 08:56:00 PM
The locals that are loyal to Russia are evacuating the area, so that most of the deaths will be among those that support the Georgian Federal government. The Russians will claim that the damages done to the towns and villages was caused by the Georgian troops, even though most of the power in the region is in the hands of the Russian military. Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?
Okay...if the locals want to be part of Russia, why is it they get no say?
I don't understand this commitment to the Georgian government's right to force people to be under its rule that don't want to be.
This isn't like David and Goliath-it's more like Jackie Aprile versus Tony Soprano. One gangster wants another's turf. I have no sympathy for either...but I do believe in the principle that people ought to have a say in their government, so if anything, the Ossetians should decide what they want and that should be final.
I don't recognize any government's absolute right to bomb huge segments of its territory into submission.
Post by: mfree on August 10, 2008, 05:16:19 PM
Post by: De Selby on August 10, 2008, 05:37:24 PM
Ok; now explain away the attempted bombing of the pipeline, the bombings in Georgian (not Ossetian) cities, and what the warships are about to do when they reach port...
That's an easy one: Russia is now invading and punishing Georgia, probably with an eye on forcing it back under Russian domination.
And the craziest part is that the leader of Georgia gave them the perfect excuse to do what he had to know they were always intent on doing...
Post by: yesitsloaded on August 10, 2008, 05:51:54 PM
SS I appreciate a little diversity here, but you are getting to be a raincloud that descends on threads and spreads gloom and boredom.
Post by: De Selby on August 10, 2008, 06:11:57 PM
Just like Saddam did right SS I appreciate a little diversity here, but you are getting to be a raincloud that descends on threads and spreads gloom and boredom.
SS I appreciate a little diversity here, but you are getting to be a raincloud that descends on threads and spreads gloom and boredom. 
Uh, excuse me, but where do you find any approval for what is happening in my posts?Post by: yesitsloaded on August 10, 2008, 09:21:41 PM
Post by: De Selby on August 10, 2008, 09:22:41 PM
You don't need anyone's approval, you just lately seem to be the bringer of apologies for the bad guys. There is never a good excuse for invading a non threatening country.
Yeah, how am I "apologizing" for Russia here? I don't see any words of approval for Russia, which is what I was referring to when I used the word "approval" first.
Believing that Russia is bad does not mean that you must believe Georgia is good, and vice versa.
Post by: LAK on August 11, 2008, 03:35:33 AM
Quote
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
And how many Serbian troops crossed our borders not so long ago?Georgia is right on Russia's border; the lunatics in Washington - and Tel Aviv - should have kept their noses out of the political affairs of that state to begin with. Russia is doing precisely what we would be doing if Moscow had set up a similar situation in Canada and Quebec.
It is things like this and the continued obsession with the subjugation by force of countries like Iran that are going to steer us headlong into WW3.
It is rather obvious that Washington and Tel Aviv planners kicked this off on Olympic opening day, with media attention conveniently focussed on the games - while counting on Russia to sit by idle and watch or "protest".
That was a big mistake, and even I could have told them it was not going to happen.
Post by: roo_ster on August 11, 2008, 04:05:42 AM
jfruser
Quote
Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.
It is rather obvious that Washington and Tel Aviv planners kicked this off on Olympic opening day, with media attention conveniently focussed on the games - while counting on Russia to sit by idle and watch or "protest".LAK:
Tinfoil is on aisle five...right next to the ethnic Jooish fare. (coincidence?)
Post by: Manedwolf on August 11, 2008, 04:10:47 AM
It is rather obvious that Washington and Tel Aviv planners kicked this off on Olympic opening day, with media attention conveniently focussed on the games - while counting on Russia to sit by idle and watch or "protest".
Oh, dude, you just jumped the shark into freaking orbit.
You are so far into tinfoil territory that you probably just personally bumped Alcoa's stock up twenty points. Congratulations.
Post by: seeker_two on August 11, 2008, 04:21:03 AM
Post by: Balog on August 11, 2008, 04:48:58 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on August 11, 2008, 05:17:33 AM
And a retro war, in ways. Steel pots and bread.
Post by: K Frame on August 11, 2008, 06:24:46 AM
I think I'll take care of that.
Everyone just cover yourselves with tin foil and inhale deeply the invisible mind control gas.