Post by: Tallpine on August 18, 2008, 01:03:10 PM
Buffalo Police batter their way into wrong house
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/415938.html
Quote
Armed with a battering ram and shotguns, Buffalo police looking for heroin broke down the door and stormed the lower apartment of a West Side family of eight.
The problem is that the Wednesday evening raid should have occurred at an apartment upstairs.
And, thats only the tip of the iceberg, according to Schavon Pennyamon, who lives at the mistakenly raided apartment on Sherwood Street with her husband, Terrell, and six children.
Pennyamon alleges that after wrongly breaking into her apartment, police proceeded to strike her epileptic husband in the head with the butt end of a shotgun and point shotguns at her young children before admitting their mistake and then raiding the right apartment.
She says shes left with a broken door, an injured husband, jittery children and what bothers her most still no apology from police.
They know they did something wrong and they were still ignorant, said the 29-year-old Pennyamon. At first, I just wanted an apology. Now, because they want[ed] to be ignorant and rude, I have to take it to the next level.
She filed a report with the departments Professional Standards Division and also contacted Mayor Byron W. Brown about the incident. Pennyamon said Friday evening she also has retained a lawyer and intends to pursue legal action.
Police brass acknowledge that officers with the Mobile Response and Narcotics units entered the wrong apartment.
As the officers were in the lower apartment, one of the detectives reviewed the search warrant application and realized it was for the upper [apartment], said Dennis J. Richards, chief of detectives.
It appears to be an honest mistake and we certainly apologize to all involved, added Michael J. DeGeorge, Buffalo police spokesman.
Police declined to comment, however, on Pennyamons allegations of assault and other police impropriety. The internal investigation with the Professional Standards Division is now under way to determine exactly what happened.
We wouldnt be comfortable discussing the internal investigation, Richards said. We can say comfortably that over 1,100 search warrants were executed last year and 580 to date this year and that, with such a high volume and such a fast-paced environment, it is understandable that mistakes could happen.
Pennyamon remains unconvinced it was a mistake. She says officers told her they had raided the house before and she believes they felt entitled to do it again warrant or not.
The way they make it seem is we can do whatever we want, she said.
Pennyamons troubled by what she says is an arrogance by police officers and an unwillingness to serve and protect those who need it.
Its a sad situation. Ive always looked up to the police. Ive always expected them to be on my side.
Pennyamon was called home from her job as a certified nursing assistant at a local health care facility at about 6:30 p. m. Wednesday to find police at her house, her children partially dressed on the porch and her husband a U.S. Air Force veteran injured. She said police were rude and unapologetic.
It was a harsh welcome to the neighborhood for the family. Theyve only lived at the apartment on Sherwood Street, on the far West Side just south of West Ferry Street, for two weeks after she says they moved from the East Side to escape crime. Now, Pennyamon said, the family already is looking to relocate again.
I dont know what was going on upstairs, but it gives police no right to bust in my doors, she said. Thats just ridiculous.
Richards said police protocol dictates that search warrants are executed by police first announcing their presence and then quickly and forcefully entering a property with guns drawn for their own protection.
Police have been faced with fortified doors and windows. In numerous locations, theyve been met with individuals armed with weapons or attacking animals, he said.
Pennyamon said the event left her husband with physical injuries and left a lasting impression on the children.
She said her husband, Terrell, suffered a dislocated arm after he was yanked up by police during the raid and is expected to return to his doctor Monday to possibly have glass left behind by the door window police broke to get into the apartment surgically removed from his foot.
Pennyamons 5-year-old daughter now sleeps with her.
My 12-year-old and 6-year-old dont want to be home at all, she said, adding that her younger children cower or run to the back of the house when they hear anyone approaching.
Thats the police, they say, Pennyamon said.
Police said no arrests were made in the subsequent raid at the upstairs apartment.
tpignataro@buffnews.com
The problem is that the Wednesday evening raid should have occurred at an apartment upstairs.
And, thats only the tip of the iceberg, according to Schavon Pennyamon, who lives at the mistakenly raided apartment on Sherwood Street with her husband, Terrell, and six children.
Pennyamon alleges that after wrongly breaking into her apartment, police proceeded to strike her epileptic husband in the head with the butt end of a shotgun and point shotguns at her young children before admitting their mistake and then raiding the right apartment.
She says shes left with a broken door, an injured husband, jittery children and what bothers her most still no apology from police.
They know they did something wrong and they were still ignorant, said the 29-year-old Pennyamon. At first, I just wanted an apology. Now, because they want[ed] to be ignorant and rude, I have to take it to the next level.
She filed a report with the departments Professional Standards Division and also contacted Mayor Byron W. Brown about the incident. Pennyamon said Friday evening she also has retained a lawyer and intends to pursue legal action.
Police brass acknowledge that officers with the Mobile Response and Narcotics units entered the wrong apartment.
As the officers were in the lower apartment, one of the detectives reviewed the search warrant application and realized it was for the upper [apartment], said Dennis J. Richards, chief of detectives.
It appears to be an honest mistake and we certainly apologize to all involved, added Michael J. DeGeorge, Buffalo police spokesman.
Police declined to comment, however, on Pennyamons allegations of assault and other police impropriety. The internal investigation with the Professional Standards Division is now under way to determine exactly what happened.
We wouldnt be comfortable discussing the internal investigation, Richards said. We can say comfortably that over 1,100 search warrants were executed last year and 580 to date this year and that, with such a high volume and such a fast-paced environment, it is understandable that mistakes could happen.
Pennyamon remains unconvinced it was a mistake. She says officers told her they had raided the house before and she believes they felt entitled to do it again warrant or not.
The way they make it seem is we can do whatever we want, she said.
Pennyamons troubled by what she says is an arrogance by police officers and an unwillingness to serve and protect those who need it.
Its a sad situation. Ive always looked up to the police. Ive always expected them to be on my side.
Pennyamon was called home from her job as a certified nursing assistant at a local health care facility at about 6:30 p. m. Wednesday to find police at her house, her children partially dressed on the porch and her husband a U.S. Air Force veteran injured. She said police were rude and unapologetic.
It was a harsh welcome to the neighborhood for the family. Theyve only lived at the apartment on Sherwood Street, on the far West Side just south of West Ferry Street, for two weeks after she says they moved from the East Side to escape crime. Now, Pennyamon said, the family already is looking to relocate again.
I dont know what was going on upstairs, but it gives police no right to bust in my doors, she said. Thats just ridiculous.
Richards said police protocol dictates that search warrants are executed by police first announcing their presence and then quickly and forcefully entering a property with guns drawn for their own protection.
Police have been faced with fortified doors and windows. In numerous locations, theyve been met with individuals armed with weapons or attacking animals, he said.
Pennyamon said the event left her husband with physical injuries and left a lasting impression on the children.
She said her husband, Terrell, suffered a dislocated arm after he was yanked up by police during the raid and is expected to return to his doctor Monday to possibly have glass left behind by the door window police broke to get into the apartment surgically removed from his foot.
Pennyamons 5-year-old daughter now sleeps with her.
My 12-year-old and 6-year-old dont want to be home at all, she said, adding that her younger children cower or run to the back of the house when they hear anyone approaching.
Thats the police, they say, Pennyamon said.
Police said no arrests were made in the subsequent raid at the upstairs apartment.
tpignataro@buffnews.com
I hope the cops understand when a heavily armed homeowner shoots a few cops breaking in by "mistake"
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 18, 2008, 01:10:43 PM
Post by: thebaldguy on August 18, 2008, 01:13:14 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on August 18, 2008, 01:18:42 PM
In the same vain, the goal of these departments should be ZERO incidents such as this. They should have checklists they do before each raid on-site to verify all this information before they go in. This isn't rocket science. I don't want to hear the local supervisor making excuses, what I want to hear is that he will find out what went wrong and fix it so it NEVER happens again. That would be an answer I want to hear.
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 18, 2008, 01:29:50 PM
Post by: geronimotwo on August 18, 2008, 02:20:57 PM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on August 18, 2008, 02:52:38 PM
It seems like this is happening more lately. Or is it just being reported on more often?
I think it's always happened. We just notice it more often now.
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 18, 2008, 05:12:51 PM
It seems like this is happening more lately. Or is it just being reported on more often?
I think it's always happened. We just notice it more often now.It's become more frequent over the last decade, I think - at least accoridng to what few research there is on this.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on August 18, 2008, 05:24:14 PM
maybe they should bring the local mail carrier with them?
Bad idea, they'd shoot everyone.....
Post by: Firethorn on August 18, 2008, 05:53:21 PM
I think it's always happened. We just notice it more often now.
Well, I could be wrong, but I think that part of the problem is that 'no-knocks' and 'rapid entries' where they knock once before employing the battering ram are, for the level of the population, as high or higher than the height of prohibition.
I've gotten mail for the wrong house before, and had mail for me given to me by the neighbors because it ended up in the wrong box.
I blame the war on drugs for 99% of this stuff. If all police raided for was suspected slavery, hostages, etc... Then we wouldn't have this problem. Tactical entries would be so rare that while a mistaken raid one would make the news - it wouldn't be so frequent to piss people off, and the reason for the raid would have people nodding that a raid was warranted.
Mistakes happen, but we have people performing raids day in and day out - several a week. They get tired and sloppy, and haven't been properly reigned in because most people aren't disgusted enough to elect people who WILL fix the problem.
Post by: RevDisk on August 18, 2008, 06:59:23 PM
If my elderly Mom can deliver 50-60 special delivery letters and several hundred normal letters to the right addresses, every day, so can Buffalo's finest.
The difference is accountability. If your mom consistently routed mail incorrectly, she'd likely be fired. I don't think the same would apply to Buffalo's narcotic folks.
Call me funny, but if I were a cop, I'd really dislike no knock raids. Most people leave their home often. It's easier to snag someone when they're buying a pack of smokes than when they're doing Gods know what in their home. Plus, there is a limit to how much hardware a person generally takes outside their house or apartment. If you were picking someone up outside their house, you can choose the time, location and terrain (within limits). An occupant generally knows his house or apartment better than the police. Not a good tactical situation. Plus, less chance of them destroying evidence if they are very far away from it. Additionally, less of a chance of folks accidently shooting grandma or someone that is bed-ridden. Bad, that.
Short of hostage situations or other rare emergencies, why the heck WOULD the cops want to do "no knock", "dynamic entry", "tactical entry", et al type raids?
Post by: Firethorn on August 18, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
Short of hostage situations or other rare emergencies, why the heck WOULD the cops want to do "no knock", "dynamic entry", "tactical entry", et al type raids?
Only thing I can think of is that some/many gangbanger types arrange for their place of business(often a home) to be occupied at all times to prevent cops from simply coming in when they're not home.
Then again, a couple days surveillance, which can easily be done by camera today, and the cops would:
A: Now how many people are in the place with a high degree of accuracy
B: When they're the most active
C: Common visitors - client list
D: That they actually have the right address
E: That they're actually dealing drugs - get a warrant to arrest a few of the likeliest holders of drugs, a few possessions and you have evidence
F: How likely they are to have weapons, and to resist. Due to the amount of consequences for shooting at cops, many drug dealers will surrender quietly if you give them a chance.
For that matter, I've heard of some police getting real creative - they put a tap on the place's sewer line, and caught the flushed drugs when the uniformed police simply knocked on the door with a warrant.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 18, 2008, 07:14:08 PM
true except i think the percentage is too low. can you think of a wrong raid that wasn't dope related?
Post by: Boomhauer on August 18, 2008, 07:19:20 PM
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all me funny, but if I were a cop, I'd really dislike no knock raids. Most people leave their home often. It's easier to snag someone when they're buying a pack of smokes than when they're doing Gods know what in their home. Plus, there is a limit to how much hardware a person generally takes outside their house or apartment. If you were picking someone up outside their house, you can choose the time, location and terrain (within limits)
But it's more fun to break in the door, shoot the dogs and stomp on the cats, kill innocent family members, and burn the house down!
They've got to justify the departmental expenses for the whizzbang weaponry, APCs with .50 cals, and other neat toys, too...
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 18, 2008, 07:22:11 PM
in order to get a real strong case you need to catch em in the house with the dope preferably in the open with them in the same room. otherwise a good dope lawyer will beat it or plead it down. and dopers get good lawyers. though that does lead to another issue if they can really nail em get the dope and all the money the doper has to get right back in the game to come up with lawyer money. and some slick cops know that and get em a second time on the rebound. i know a guy got tagged with a coupkle ounces of coke and a gun on monday in myrtle beach bailed out and got caught the next day with 2 more ounces they followed him right from jail got him and his connection.other criminals do the same thing have to do a pay the lawyer job when they make bond
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 18, 2008, 10:28:04 PM
I blame the war on drugs for 99% of this stuff.
true except i think the percentage is too low. can you think of a wrong raid that wasn't dope related?
true except i think the percentage is too low. can you think of a wrong raid that wasn't dope related?
A wrong-house raid? Or a paramilitary raid that went terribly wrong?
Post by: seeker_two on August 19, 2008, 01:17:52 AM
Post by: Firethorn on August 19, 2008, 01:56:10 AM
A wrong-house raid? Or a paramilitary raid that went terribly wrong?
Serious law enforcement problems in general.
It's either WoD, or caused by the attitude caused by the WoD.
The other major problem with police is governments trying to use tickets as revenue generators - but we'd need a whole lot less of that if we didn't have a WoD, and taxed them instead, now would we? So we're back to the WoD.
Post by: Dannyboy on August 19, 2008, 02:40:38 AM
No, they won't. Remember Cory Maye?
Or Ryan Frederick in Chesapeake, VA. That's an even worse story than Maye's, if you ask me.
Post by: HankB on August 19, 2008, 03:51:22 AM
* * * * * * * * * *
On a slightly lighter note, I remember seeing, decades ago, a raid on a place in Chicago on which the police invited along a news crew. They announced, and then had at the door with sledgehammers. (This was before the "police issue" battering rams were standard.) They kept pounding, and pounding . . . until a little window in the door opened and a guy inquired as to what the hades they thought they were doing.
They responded "Police! Warrant! Open up!"
The guy responded with words to the effect of "Ah don't have ta open until youse shows me da warrant!"
There were more words exchanged, but the guy WOULD NOT open until they showed the warrant.
Finally they found it, and held it up for him to read . . . whereupon he did open up.
The door was built out of what looked like 2x10s, with 2x4s as bars, just like a castle gate from an old Errol Flynn movie. They asked him why the strong door, and he responded "Lotsa crime here, and youse cops don't pertect us none."
Cops didn't find anything illegal . . .
Post by: Manedwolf on August 19, 2008, 04:05:58 AM
It seems like this is happening more lately. Or is it just being reported on more often?
I think it's always happened. We just notice it more often now.No, I don't think it's always happened.
Once upon a time, it was blue lights and a bullhorn outside, not:
*CRASH* GETONTHEFLOORNOW*BANG**BANG*GETDOWNFLOORNOWHUTHUTHUTAHHH*BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG*
...for alleged activities. The police are now paramilitary.
Quote
Call me funny, but if I were a cop, I'd really dislike no knock raids.
Adrenaline rush for those inclined to enjoy the tactical ninja things. With no consequences if they make mistakes and hurt innocent people.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 05:08:38 AM
Post by: taurusowner on August 19, 2008, 05:16:54 AM
It seems like this is happening more lately. Or is it just being reported on more often?
National instant media coverage of any event in any town in the entire nation can certainly skew "rare" in an interesting way. This type of botched raid is probably happening a lot more than is being reported. BUT successful warranted raids are probably happening a lot more than that, and those aren't reported at all. We're seeing the world as the media wants us to see it, not as it is.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 19, 2008, 07:02:32 AM
http://www.cato.org/raidmap
This kind of thing happens quite a lot.
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 19, 2008, 07:04:48 AM
Not attacking you or anything, but I read a huge detailed white paper with stats that pointed SWAT teams and their activities were becoming more common.
Post by: brimic on August 19, 2008, 07:15:08 AM
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As the officers were in the lower apartment, one of the detectives reviewed the search warrant application and realized it was for the upper [apartment], said Dennis J. Richards, chief of detectives.
I've worked with people in the past who have been fired for making a reading comprehension error on far more complex document- errors that had far smaller impact or consequences than the 'error' made by the police in this case.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 07:32:37 AM
its been my experience that fewer folks get hurt now with the better tactics but i might be jaded i grew up in pg md back when the approved technique for removing a pcp smoker who climbed a telephone pole was a 12 guage and not with a bean bag round
the whole premise is that they overwhelm everybody and no one gets to shoot it works pretty well if they outlawed those tactics and still went in the same places many more folks would die. this based on being there not a white paper written by some other academic who also hasn't been there
Post by: Tallpine on August 19, 2008, 08:12:03 AM
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if they outlawed those tactics and still went in the same places many more folks would die
Maybe some things just don't need doing
Seems to me that my neighbor smoking a little dope at home is far less hazard to me than SWAT breaking down the wrong door
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 19, 2008, 08:12:38 AM
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if they outlawed those tactics and still went in the same places many more folks would die
Maybe some things just don't need doing
Seems to me that my neighbor smoking a little dope at home is far less hazard to me than SWAT breaking down the wrong door
Post by: RevDisk on August 19, 2008, 08:31:51 AM
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Call me funny, but if I were a cop, I'd really dislike no knock raids.
Adrenaline rush for those inclined to enjoy the tactical ninja things. With no consequences if they make mistakes and hurt innocent people.
Ah, my mistake. I was trained as a soldier. Most of the folks we trained to hunt could be considered somewhat dangerous. Letting your enemy determine the ground of his choosing that he has had time to prepapre? Well, it's statistically safer than shooting yourself in the head, but not by much.
LEO's have an annual fatality rate of 20.54 per 100,000 per year (average over the entire course of the 1990's). Including vehicular fatalities, which is a huge amount. To put things in comparison, Timber cutters have 117.8 per 100,000. Cuttings trees is over five times more dangerous than being a LEO. Commercial fishers are 71.1. Farmers even manage to have a higher fatality rate, 28.
While I agree the being an LEO is a dangerous profession, it's not that dangerous when compared to many other professions.
Post by: Tallpine on August 19, 2008, 08:46:21 AM
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Timber cutters have 117.8 per 100,000
Which is what I did - off and on - from 1977 through 1997.
I had my own business for about six years, so I spent a lot of that time driving trucks and skidders, and fixing stuff - always fixing stuff.
I still cut wood on my own place, and I've done a little bit of (tree) falling for neighbors around here.
I've also farmed a little, but I've never had a chance to work on a commercial fishing boat.
I do volunteer wildland firefighting now. I've even considered applying for reserve deputy, but I don't want anything to do with the WoD
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 19, 2008, 09:54:38 AM
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this based on being there not a white paper written by some other academic who also hasn't been there
1. I'm very sorry to have to say this, but as I always say, your personal experience - even if you are an LEO, and I don't know if you are - is at best what they call 'anecdotal', and the plural of anecdote is not data. When it comes to researching trends and statistics, I trust an academic who 'hasn't been there' over a police officer who 'walked the beat'. Statistics, properly researched, give a far wider picture than having been there.
2. The research I quote says that the trend really stared out in the 1980's, though the seeds were sown in the 1960's with the first early SWAT teams.
It may seem outlandish to you, but avoiding the risk that someone will wash an ounce of heroin down the tubes is not worth the added risk of possibly shooting a person (even if they're a drug dealer) or having a police officer get shot.
Also, I think it's sort of strange to be doing giant, expensive operations on the tip of some junky, especially - as often is the case - an uncorroborated tip.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 03:03:28 PM
i was NOT a leo i worked the other side of the street
back before the internet and swat raids were carried out by whoever was available and willing and the carnage was intense. no one cared for the moist part they killed thugs and black folks and white america really didn't give a hoot
you realize how long la swat worked before they lost a cop? how many warrants servede and raids they conducted? 41years and thats going where angels fear to tread. they use plans designed to end it before the bad guys know what happened. is it a lil abrupt?rude even.... yea lifes like that sometimes. even when they make a bozo move like raiding the wrong house the same tactics leave folks breathing . upset is bad dead is worse. they hit so hard there is no shoot out. their tactics while they seem a lil rough in the student union let lots of bad guys stay alive. not to mention the kids in that house and the ones around it.
would it be better if richard nixons legacy "the war on drugs" were gone? absolutley. but since thats not reallity i'd like to keep the body count down.
got a lonk to your white paper? or the name of the sociology/philosophy major that wrote it? i'd like to read it
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 03:08:13 PM
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if they outlawed those tactics and still went in the same places many more folks would die
Maybe some things just don't need doing
Seems to me that my neighbor smoking a little dope at home is far less hazard to me than SWAT breaking down the wrong door
did someone get raided by swat for smoking a lil dope? where? or is that a "it coulda happened that way" moment ala charlene drew jarvis
Post by: Tallpine on August 19, 2008, 03:12:02 PM
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did someone get raided by swat for smoking a lil dope? where? or is that a "it coulda happened that way" moment ala charlene drew jarvis
Have you not read about all the raids where they find "a small amount of marijuana"
I swear, that "small amount of marijuana" sure gets around...
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 03:17:43 PM
when they trained you whast did they teach you about a situation where you had to go to the enemys home to get someone or something? would your tactics be roll in surprise em and overwhem em? or you drive up slow knok holler allah akbar and wait for em to welcome you? bearing in mind that when your bosses sent you somewhere like that saying no wasn't one of YOUR options either. what tactics would you suggest they employ? professionally speaking
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
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did someone get raided by swat for smoking a lil dope? where? or is that a "it coulda happened that way" moment ala charlene drew jarvis
Have you not read about all the raids where they find "a small amount of marijuana"
I swear, that "small amount of marijuana" sure gets around...
i have indeed what i haven't seen is anywhere where the raid was looking for that. its always for someone selling or something more substantial and when the cops find out their "informant" lied they end up with egg on their face and a lil head stash. i've b een around folks who have that happen to em angey ex new g/f's angry ex. someone who you didn't pay for that stash. it gets pretty ugly .
if you have a case where swat was called out to go after a recreational user as the intent of their warrant i'll still be waiting
Post by: Balog on August 19, 2008, 03:37:15 PM
I have this friend who married a young trollop shortly before his second tour in Iraq. She dumped him after he'd been gone maybe three months. I always thought him giving me marriage advice was the height of absurdity; but I think the semi-incoherent guy who's claim to expertise is having been a drug dealer "back in the day" lecturing authoritatively on proper police conduct may just top it.
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 19, 2008, 03:52:03 PM
Quote
got a lonk to your white paper? or the name of the sociology/philosophy major that wrote it? i'd like to read it
Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids
Quote
if you have a case where swat was called out to go after a recreational user as the intent of their warrant i'll still be waiting
"On August 5, 2005, at 6:15 a.m., a SWAT team converged around the Sunrise, Florida, home of Anthony Diotaiuto. They came to
serve a search warrant based on an anonymous tip and an informants purchase of a single ounce of marijuana from the 23-yearold
bartender and part-time student. Friends acknowledge that Diotaiuto was a recreational marijuana smoker, but they deny he was a drug dealer in any real sense of the term."
"Another troubling development is the use of SWAT teams and other paramilitary units to search and arrest medical marijuana and
prescription painkiller offenders"
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 04:58:03 PM
And the fact that cops use military tactics whenever they can possibly whomp up an excuse is, to you, a sign that the system is working just fine? Wow, I must not be old enough to have the wisdom to understand that.
I have this friend who married a young trollop shortly before his second tour in Iraq. She dumped him after he'd been gone maybe three months. I always thought him giving me marriage advice was the height of absurdity; but I think the semi-incoherent guy who's claim to expertise is having been a drug dealer "back in the day" lecturing authoritatively on proper police conduct may just top it.
I have this friend who married a young trollop shortly before his second tour in Iraq. She dumped him after he'd been gone maybe three months. I always thought him giving me marriage advice was the height of absurdity; but I think the semi-incoherent guy who's claim to expertise is having been a drug dealer "back in the day" lecturing authoritatively on proper police conduct may just top it.
could you support "And the fact that cops use military tactics whenever they can possibly whomp up an excuse "
or did you really mean to say thats what you emote or feel?
and i know its tough mind reading but you are confused. i never sold drugs, well i mighta split a bag of pot with a friend a few times. i was all about using em. lots of em. that did cause me to be some dealers favorite atm machine. i had a cash flow problem though. wife/exwife and three teen age kids to support couple girlfriends a 6 digit coke habit plus i needed to drink a ton of booze everyday to come down when coke ran out. so i was a thief. fairly good one very busy one. never got caught but as ilbob observed in another forum i did finally get ratted out. in my quest to avoid an unpleasant police experience i did a lot of reverse engineering on how they worked. kinda of a know thy enemy thing. one thing that has improved working conditions for the criminal element is all that pesky legal stuff cops go though nowadays. i was lucky got in when getting beat was on the way out.
as to my qualifications on cop conduct i've seen quite a bit both good and bad and watched it evolve for longer than you've been breathing . i've been locked up quite a bit and managed not to lose sight of whose fault it was, or more accurately regained sight of whose fault it was i went through a snivelling stage in my twentys when like many at that age i was all knowing. pretty funny maintaining that farce in a cell but thats a gift of being young.
what the germans say it true too soon old too late smart
vis a vis your friend with the bad marriage? in my dotage i've learned to listen to folks who fail when they share so i can not do as they do. i frequently recieve wise counsel on issues from folks who have failed at resolving those issues in their own life. of course i hada age to where i didn't still smell of similac before i figured it out and realizing i wasn't near as smart as i thought i was really helped open my ears and mind a bit
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 05:09:56 PM
Quote
got a lonk to your white paper? or the name of the sociology/philosophy major that wrote it? i'd like to read it
Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids
Quote
if you have a case where swat was called out to go after a recreational user as the intent of their warrant i'll still be waiting
"On August 5, 2005, at 6:15 a.m., a SWAT team converged around the Sunrise, Florida, home of Anthony Diotaiuto. They came to
serve a search warrant based on an anonymous tip and an informants purchase of a single ounce of marijuana from the 23-yearold
bartender and part-time student. Friends acknowledge that Diotaiuto was a recreational marijuana smoker, but they deny he was a drug dealer in any real sense of the term."
"Another troubling development is the use of SWAT teams and other paramilitary units to search and arrest medical marijuana and
prescription painkiller offenders"
balkos piece? again? hes like that video that some hero posts every 30 days of how to handle dealing with the cops. gets the young guys all excited
tell you what look up in balkos white paper what the percentage was of folks shot/hurt during raids pre 67 cops and crooks and then get his stats on the percentage now good luck
and how did you plan on casting someone who was snitched as a dealer and who sold to an undercover as a recreational user. are the kids today getting pot so good it makes em stupid enough to think that if you sell to a cop it don't count as dealing? you guys think you get a do over?
let me know when you find a case that come at least close to a swat team sicced on a recreational user. see if you can find one who didn't accidentally sell a bag to a cop too
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 19, 2008, 05:39:24 PM
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and how did you plan on casting someone who was snitched as a dealer and who sold to an undercover as a recreational user.
Well, under current law anybody who sells even an ounce of pot is a drug dealer, so I suppose everybody is.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 06:08:33 PM
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and how did you plan on casting someone who was snitched as a dealer and who sold to an undercover as a recreational user.
Well, under current law anybody who sells even an ounce of pot is a drug dealer, so I suppose everybody is.
lets see in this case this person sold enough to get snitched on then sold to a stranger, i can assume that they didn't knowingly sell to a cop. they aren't THAT stupid are they? in my old school world we call folks who sell for profit , especially to folks they don't know ,dealers. is there another term in vougue now in the academic world? i do make a distinction though in cases where a few folks pool their cash to split a larger bag but the courts don't.
let me know if you can come up with that case or those stats from radley you might have to contact him strangly enough they aren't in his piece. kinda remarkable given the effort put into some parts of that great work how he didn't seize upon a stat that would illustrate how much worse the raids are now with swat. and with all that research surely he coulda turned that number up, unless of course it doesn't serve his agenda. pardon my suspicous nature. gotta love that title though gotta get em all excited on campus does however scream agenda and hatchet job. makes folks look at it funny and sadly causes some folks to discount some real valid issues he brings up. hard to sort roses from turd easier to toss who stinking mess buy new roses
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 19, 2008, 06:13:52 PM
Also, as far as I am concerned, I see no difference between a dealer and a user. Without users, there wouldn't be dealers.
They deserve to get shot as much (that is, none at all) as people who have never seen a gram of marijuana.
Post by: RevDisk on August 19, 2008, 07:05:25 PM
"Ah, my mistake. I was trained as a soldier. Most of the folks we trained to hunt could be considered somewhat dangerous. Letting your enemy determine the ground of his choosing that he has had time to prepapre? Well, it's statistically safer than shooting yourself in the head, but not by much."
when they trained you whast did they teach you about a situation where you had to go to the enemys home to get someone or something? would your tactics be roll in surprise em and overwhem em? or you drive up slow knok holler allah akbar and wait for em to welcome you? bearing in mind that when your bosses sent you somewhere like that saying no wasn't one of YOUR options either. what tactics would you suggest they employ? professionally speaking
when they trained you whast did they teach you about a situation where you had to go to the enemys home to get someone or something? would your tactics be roll in surprise em and overwhem em? or you drive up slow knok holler allah akbar and wait for em to welcome you? bearing in mind that when your bosses sent you somewhere like that saying no wasn't one of YOUR options either. what tactics would you suggest they employ? professionally speaking
Unless you're a real high speed unit, you're generally not going after high profile individuals. You're going against the rank and file. Not saying it's impossible to roll up on a high muckty muck, but if a normal infantry squad rolls up on say, Saddam Hussein, it's by accident.
Tho, I do know that one of my buddies in MI snagged a hardcore exactly the way you described. Rolled up to a cafe loaded with shady characters, told one specific guy that So and So wanted to talk to him, guy jumps in the back of the pickup, off they go. Into an garage filled with US soldiers.
Generally, that's not a good idea, but sometimes it does work.
If I was ordered to go after a guy's house, if at all possible I'd lay eyes on the target for as long before the raid as possible. Sometimes it's possible, sometimes it ain't. Local snitches are also handy. If he goes to the cafe every day or the local mosque on a regular basis, I'd snag his fourth point of contact en route. If not, I'd try to get a snitch to knock on his door, and grab him on answering the door. Often times, none of the above is possible. Cordon searches in urban environments flat out suck. Aside from IED's, which are quasi random, rooting through people's houses is one of the most dangerous activities we do in Iraq. Hardcores tend to boobytrap them. Or have hidey holes prep'd.
Raiding a known hardcore's house that had been previously eyeballed? Main gun round through the front door would be my preferred "dynamic entry". Followed by mortars, or preferably a Mk19. Then move in slowly with a guy who's good at recognizing IED's and such. With a ton of crew served providing overwatch. Afterwards, get an intel weenie to earn his pay by extracting any intel that isn't illegible due to blood stains.
But, anyone who'd consider such methods against US citizens should never be in any uniform. Applying military practices to routine law enforcement is a very, very bad idea. The military's job is to kill people and break things. LEO's are specifically supposed to avoid that if at all humanly possible.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 19, 2008, 07:50:15 PM
Actually, he specifically states that there is a problem with collating the stats, as they are very badly documented.
Also, as far as I am concerned, I see no difference between a dealer and a user. Without users, there wouldn't be dealers.
They deserve to get shot as much (that is, none at all) as people who have never seen a gram of marijuana.
Also, as far as I am concerned, I see no difference between a dealer and a user. Without users, there wouldn't be dealers.
They deserve to get shot as much (that is, none at all) as people who have never seen a gram of marijuana.
trouble with just some of the stats fancy that i thought he could narshall his online devotees and get em all together to prove his point saddened he hasn't chosen to do that
vis a vis your understanding of the drug culture when you coming to america? got a place to live yet? i am remodeling just the place for you google 1816 c st se washington dc lovely ground floor unit new kitchen and carpet through out has a closed in sleeping porch that faces the alley so live entertainment always. approximatly a 100 110 yard dash to metro and 1/4 mile to dc general hospital you can research the issue first hand maybe assist radley. bring the girlfriend theres even another white lady in the building. les trhan 800 a month for 2 bedrooms with all the old style ammenities in the building off alley parking too
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 19, 2008, 10:50:40 PM
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when you coming to america?
If everything goes right? Less than a year now.
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got a place to live yet?
Quite likely will be provided by whichever campus takes me. That's how these things work when you're a mere useless History student.
Post by: Dannyboy on August 20, 2008, 01:45:29 AM
trouble with just some of the stats fancy that i thought he could narshall his online devotees and get em all together to prove his point saddened he hasn't chosen to do that
Back in the old school daze when cops could break down doors and kill everyone in the house, nobody cared. Hence, no statistics. No records were kept until people started to care and lawyers got involved. You can't blame someone for not "doing enough research" when there isn't anything to research. Out of curiousity, how many times did cops back in the day kick in the wrong door and kill an innocent person? Since that is the whole point of this thread and not no-knock raids in general.
Post by: Firethorn on August 20, 2008, 04:31:45 AM
Out of curiousity, how many times did cops back in the day kick in the wrong door and kill an innocent person? Since that is the whole point of this thread and not no-knock raids in general.
Difficult to say, good stats weren't kept. Most of the things requiring a cop to kick in the door in the old days were pretty obvious, and from my understanding(I obviously wasn't alive during the period), you saw much less in the way of dealing/storing illegal drugs in homes - the big one was alcohol during prohibition, and they were still often commercial ventures similar to bars/clubs of today, just hidden. Even hard liquer tends to be bulkier than the illegal drugs of today.
So the no-knock raids were on commercial properties for the most part.
Post by: roo_ster on August 20, 2008, 05:11:43 AM
But, anyone who'd consider such methods against US citizens should never be in any uniform. Applying military practices to routine law enforcement is a very, very bad idea. The military's job is to kill people and break things. LEO's are specifically supposed to avoid that if at all humanly possible.
Can I get an Amen!?
Quote from: MB
...avoiding the risk that someone will wash an ounce of heroin down the tubes is not worth the added risk of possibly shooting a person (even if they're a drug dealer) or having a police officer get shot.
Post by: Dannyboy on August 20, 2008, 05:19:20 AM
Difficult to say, good stats weren't kept.
My point, exactly.
Post by: Tallpine on August 20, 2008, 05:33:12 AM
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if you have a case where swat was called out to go after a recreational user as the intent of their warrant i'll still be waiting
Well for one there was a SWAT raid on a family in Colorado a few years back to search the high school son's room
IIRC they stomped a few kittens but didn't find any dope.And no - I don't have a link handy. I've read a lot of stuff in my life and I don't have a link for everything that I've ever read.
Really, even if the "neighbor" is dealing then how does it bother me? He could be selling Amway, too
Post by: Firethorn on August 20, 2008, 05:42:54 AM
Really, even if the "neighbor" is dealing then how does it bother me? He could be selling Amway, too
Amway, Mary Kay, tupperware, gourmet chef, etc...
The only thing I'd have about dealers is licensing them as selling good product and collecting the appropriate sales tax.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 20, 2008, 05:48:54 AM
Links mean nothing these days.
Everyone asks for a credible source. This does not equate to an actual desire to know the truth, or research things for themselves.
The truth is, even if you provided a plethora of supporting information, complete with primary and secondary sources, signed and authorized by God himself to be factual, it would not suffice.
I've posted this before, and I'll post it again:
http://www.jonathancrossfield.com/blog/2008/05/how-to-win-arguments-online-a.html
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on August 20, 2008, 07:08:53 AM
Do you have any stats to back this up, cs-daddy?
Why did you have to do this? Come on.
I can NEVER figure out what he is trying to say, now, because you gave his post credibility, I feel stupid because I can not translate what he is trying to say.
Thanks.
Thanks a lot.
Post by: Tallpine on August 20, 2008, 07:26:11 AM
A few years back (I'm not sure if it was before or after we moved out here to this place - heard about it from other neighbors) a guy down the road was busted for growing and selling MJ. He's a typical middle-aged pot-head that can't maintain a thought over two sentences but he's harmless. Now, the raid and arrest did me no harm but neither did it do me any benefit. He could have been growing tomatoes for all I could care.
The fact that there may have been police abuse in the past does not excuse police abuse in the present.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 20, 2008, 08:14:13 AM
Post by: alan2 on August 20, 2008, 08:29:10 AM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 20, 2008, 08:40:42 AM
not sure what hook you imagine you can hang the fed civil rights beef on.being stupid to someone is not a civil rights violation or did the rules change again
Post by: alan2 on August 20, 2008, 09:15:47 AM
i'll bet that you get a settlment from cities insurance carrier in 6 figures with their laweyer getting 1/3 negotiations will take about 18 months to 2 years
not sure what hook you imagine you can hang the fed civil rights beef on.being stupid to someone is not a civil rights violation or did the rules change again
not sure what hook you imagine you can hang the fed civil rights beef on.being stupid to someone is not a civil rights violation or did the rules change again
Re the last question, I would leave that to the "legal eagles" of which I'm not one.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 20, 2008, 09:56:55 AM
Post by: dogmush on August 20, 2008, 11:25:51 PM
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aw come on you brought it up take a shot. someone else surely will
I'll try.
I'd imagine some combination of:
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
and:Quote
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress
Combined with a lot of time and money could do it.
Unfortunatly, I'd bet, and the cops are betting, that the wronged person in this case has neither the time nor the money for a civil suit. It's a shame because I'd like to see the LEO that led this raid lose his career and house over this. If you fail basic reading comprehension, you shouldn't be a cop.
Post by: Firethorn on August 21, 2008, 02:04:28 AM
the claim made was that swat was used to serve a warrant for someone suspected of mere possesion.
I'd believe it, don't have a link handy but remember the incident where the
Turned out that the city used SWAT to serve something like 90% of their warrants - and yes, they did the full tactical thing.
edit - remembered wrong.
Post by: dogmush on August 21, 2008, 02:59:48 AM
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I'd believe it, don't have a link handy but remember the incident where the dentist moonlighting as a bookie got shot by SWAT?
I believe you mean Salvatore Culosi, Jr.
Post by: Firethorn on August 21, 2008, 03:24:47 AM
I believe you mean Salvatore Culosi, Jr.
Thank you. He's the one.
I can agree that maybe holding the cop responsable in this case might be wrong - because he was wrong because he was trained and used wrong. The department/city is responsable here.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 21, 2008, 06:51:54 PM
Post by: dogmush on August 21, 2008, 10:12:45 PM
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the culosi case was a tragedy and it didn't have to happen. it was also unusualin the the cops aknowledged crewing the pooch right away. a good tactic some other places might try
And that's the point. They all don't have to happen. Every time SWAT messes up a raid, it didn't have to happen.
Here's a tactic that other places might want to try: Don't storm peoples house like you think you're in Baghdad. Oh wait, No we kock on the doors and get the head of the houses permission in Baghdad, nevermind.
There's very little, if any, justifiable use of military equipment and tactics in civilian law enforcement. The sooner SWAT teams realize this, the less people, LEO's and civilians, will die.
Post by: anygunanywhere on August 22, 2008, 03:48:35 AM
Really, even if the "neighbor" is dealing then how does it bother me? He could be selling Amway, too
If you ever had a neighbor dealing then it would not be funny.
We bought our current home in 2003. It is in a very nice neighborhood in a nice city.
Our neighbor was dealing. LEOs told us all about it after the bust. Up until he was arrested it was often irritating with the amount of traffic and users in and out of his house.
The folks who bought the house after foreclosure were annoyed by users for awhile. My new nieghbor is quite an imposing physical specimen. Word got out fairly quickly that it was not a good idea to knock on the door and askfor a dimer.
No, SWAT did not raid the wrong house.
Post by: Firethorn on August 22, 2008, 05:07:35 AM
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Our neighbor was dealing. LEOs told us all about it after the bust. Up until he was arrested it was often irritating with the amount of traffic and users in and out of his house.
I wonder, what would the odds be that he would have been dealing out of his house if it was legal? I'm guessing not high - at that point he can open a storefront and not break any laws.
Post by: Tallpine on August 22, 2008, 05:50:05 AM
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If you ever had a neighbor dealing then it would not be funny.
Well, the guy down the road a couple miles was growing & selling pot and I never even knew about until after the fact.
I'n pretty sure that my former next door neighbor (who was a serious problem, but for other reasons) was growing and selling MJ. At least he had a greenhouse built and after that he suddenly seemed to have an awful lot of traffic from short term visitors
(what do I know, maybe they were coming from miles around to buy his lucious tomatoes? :p ) Even that wasn't really a problem except for more traffic in and out of his driveway easement.Amazingly, the feds apparently came up and arrested him for something entirely different without us knowing anything about it. I first heard about him being indicted on the radio
He was immediately released on PR bond. I assume that he was arrested at some point though - they don't just call folks and politely ask them to come in to be indicted, do they?