Post by: Manedwolf on September 02, 2008, 10:27:22 AM
Which end is the front?
Why can't GM hire a designer that's a designer? All their vehicles look like angry kitchen appliances.
And what IS up with the 80's/90's unibrow plastic taillight bar? LET IT GO, GM. THE FIREBIRD IS DEAD.
This is like a Pontiac Sunfire that tapers backwards from hood to tail. What the hell, GM? Seriously, what?
(Added: Remember the in your face grill and LED headlights on the showcar? Gone! Generic GM economy car nose.)
Post by: Boomhauer on September 02, 2008, 12:57:17 PM
Quote
And it's UGLY.
Which end is the front?
Which end is the front?
Wait, I thought that was how all vehicles came these days?
Post by: Bigjake on September 02, 2008, 01:19:11 PM
Why can't GM hire a designer that's a designer? All their vehicles look like angry kitchen appliances.
Thats funny, I don't care who you are
Maybe they're trying to appeal to the same crowd of wierdos that thing the Prius is aesthetically pleasing.
Post by: AJ Dual on September 02, 2008, 01:20:27 PM
The auto-makers are famous for disguising the details of pre-production cars from the auto-paparazzi. They cover stuff in black plastic on the test tracks, to fabricating downright fakes.
Wasn't the Volt due in 2011? Two more years seems far away for them to have the cosmetics finalized, when Car & Driver is constantly full of franken-cars caught on the test tracks that are due in the very next model year.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 02, 2008, 01:21:06 PM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 02, 2008, 01:31:40 PM
Post by: thebaldguy on September 02, 2008, 02:23:34 PM
Winter testing.
Years ago, the son of an local auto column/talk show (Paul Brand?) snapped some pics of a disguised "new" VW Beetle in Bemidi, Minnesota. It had black vinyl front and rear end covers to hide the shape. The driver emerged from the store, saw the guy taking pictures, and ran to the car and sped off.
I've seen disguised GM models in downtown Minneapolis. They were disguised with front/rear end covers, and had some sensors on the roof.
The license plates were special GM Manufacturing plates from Michigan.
Post by: lupinus on September 02, 2008, 03:26:48 PM
The new civic coupe? My goodness it's fugly
Post by: seeker_two on September 02, 2008, 03:38:55 PM
Post by: Bigjake on September 02, 2008, 04:18:33 PM
Nicer-looking than the Prius.....a co-worker has one....I call it the "Stealth Egg"....good thing she got white instead of brown....
completely off topic, but I just had my very first dinner of fresh eggs, of this years hatch! Most tasty Rhode Island and Welsummer eggs.
Post by: Firethorn on September 02, 2008, 06:29:09 PM
Two more years seems far away for them to have the cosmetics finalized,
Indeed, it's quite possible that the picture car is pretty much entirely a test mule; really only intended to test the mechanicals.
And yeah, efficiency dictates much of a car's profile today.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 02, 2008, 07:48:56 PM
There's video of GM's CEO giving the Volt/Malibu frankencar a test drive floating around somehwere.
Post by: Gewehr98 on September 02, 2008, 08:40:11 PM
Quote
LET IT GO, GM. THE FIREBIRD IS DEAD.
I liked the last iteration of the Firebird. It'll probably come back, now that its sister-ship Camaro is hitting the market again soon.
At least the Volt mule above, heavily cladded and disguised though it is, looks better than 99% of the rice-burners on the road today.
OMGWTF? Aerodynamic design for an energy-efficient electric vehicle?
Who woulda thunk it?
Post by: The Annoyed Man on September 03, 2008, 04:56:28 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on September 03, 2008, 04:58:09 AM
More importantly, isn't the Volt supposed to have an operating range of only 40 miles? I would be interested in the car as a commuter, but my round-trip is 50 miles. Unless someone installs outlets in the parking garage, the limited range would kill it for me.
MBTA put a row of metered power spaces in the Alewife T garage, but removed them because A) nobody used them, and B), duh, they were vandalized.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on September 03, 2008, 05:03:23 AM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 03, 2008, 05:05:49 AM
More importantly, isn't the Volt supposed to have an operating range of only 40 miles? I would be interested in the car as a commuter, but my round-trip is 50 miles. Unless someone installs outlets in the parking garage, the limited range would kill it for me.
It has a range of 40 miles running on the batteries alone. After 40 miles, a gas generator turns on to power the electric motors for another 300 or 400 miles.
Post by: Manedwolf on September 03, 2008, 05:06:44 AM
It has a range of 40 miles running on the batteries alone. After 40 miles, a gas generator hopefully turns on to power the electric motors for another 300 or 400 miles.
FTFY. It IS a GM product.
Post by: AJ Dual on September 03, 2008, 08:20:50 AM
More importantly, isn't the Volt supposed to have an operating range of only 40 miles? I would be interested in the car as a commuter, but my round-trip is 50 miles. Unless someone installs outlets in the parking garage, the limited range would kill it for me.
It has a range of 40 miles running on the batteries alone. After 40 miles, a gas generator turns on to power the electric motors for another 300 or 400 miles.Which is the way all hybrids should have been from the beginning. It's mechanically simpler. I don't understand why Honda and Toyota did the "synergy drive" style the way they have implemented it. They need very complicated drivetrains with all the accompanying parasitic losses to keep switching back and forth like that.
generator -> battery -> electric motor = much simpler. The way subs and diesel electric locomotives have been doing it for nearly a century.
Post by: mtnbkr on September 03, 2008, 08:33:17 AM
Chris
Post by: Gewehr98 on September 03, 2008, 08:38:45 AM
Quote
FTFY. It IS a GM product.
Yeah, ok. Like nobody here has a reliable GM vehicle sans Hirohito amenities. (aka, my Chevy pickup, my dad's Saturn Vue, etc...)
To quote Fistful: Manedwolf, why do you hate America so much?
Post by: Manedwolf on September 03, 2008, 08:41:51 AM
If ALL their vehicles were reliable and were not corner-cutting crank-em-out cars, they would not be losing so much marketshare, would they? Then there's the focus on chrome and gee-whiz in their luxury lines, NOT quality. My parents rented one of the new top-of-the-line Cadillacs, and half the gadget features weren't working right. Neither was the passenger-side window, or the driver's side seat motor control on one of the two joysticks. This was a brand new Cadillac. DTS, I think. Quality assurance? What's that? But it's got gadgets and chromeplated plastic all over! They just...maybe don't work.
Meanwhile, if you get into a new Lexus, it just freaking works.
I'm sorry, but I know too many people whose GM vehicles are in the shop far, far, too often, and they just don't have the longevity of a lot of "import brands" that are made by US workers right here. See, I also consider Honda of America and Toyota to be American cars...even moreso, because most of their cars are made in Ohio or Kentucky, whereas some of the Big Three cars are made in Mexico.
Again, if GM stuff was all good, why are they losing all their marketshare and nearing bankruptcy, when people choose cars that don't break over cars that do...?
Post by: mtnbkr on September 03, 2008, 09:08:24 AM
First was a Pontiac Bonneville. The engine was reliable enough and it ran strong, but many components attached to the engine weren't as well designed. In the ten years my parents had that car, it went through 3-4 alternators, at least one AC compressor, and multiple power window motors (there was other stuff, but those are the specific problems I can think of).
The 2nd was a Pontiac Grand Prix my wife owned when we got married. She replaced the transmission once and had it rebuilt once prior to us getting married. The ABS system failed. During the time it was failing, it would kick in even in a normal braking situation (hint: that doesn't help braking on dry pavement). It ran rough as hell for no apparent reason. The last straw was it trying to kill me in rush hour traffic on I66. The cruise control kicked in by itself and tried to accelerate from 10mph to whatever speed it wanted. I had to stand on the brakes while wrestling it to the breakdown lane. I shut it off and cranked it back up. Worked fine and then went haywire again. I repeated shutdown/crank process again and it was fine till I got home. I bought another car within the week.
I've owned three Toyotas (actually still have two of them). The 93 Paseo needed nothing but normal wear and tear items (tires, plugs, clutch, brake pads, etc) during the 120k miles I put on it (sold it with 196k miles) and 8 years I owned it.
The 97 4Runner has been equally reliable except for the rear axle seal I replaced in 2003. It's a common problem in 3rd gen 4Runners (and easy repair), but hasn't come back since. With 158k miles, I'd still drive it cross country right now if necessary.
My newest Toyota is a 2003 Camry. Other than a freak problem where the water pump leaked onto the pulleys, which contaminated the idler arm bearing and alternator bearing, resulting in the replacement of all three components, it has been reliable. Had I caught the leak early enough, it probably would've just been the water pump. With only 50k miles and two years of ownership (125k total miles), the jury is still out on that one.
In all fairness, the 1993 Nissan Altima I owned for a couple years was a lemon on par with the Pontiacs (worse actually), so I won't buy another Nissan either. I bought it with 50k on the odometer. By the time it hit 90k, it had a major oil leak, a significant water leak, no AC, and intermittent electrical problems. When I was offered $400 on trade-in when I bought the Camry, I was all too happy to take it.
There are a lot of American cars I'd like to own, but cars are too expensive to take risks on. I keep my cars for a long time and expect them to last (and not kill me...).
Chris
Post by: Gewehr98 on September 03, 2008, 09:20:44 AM
IOW, nobody's immune to kicking lemons out the factory door. Just because they burn rice doesn't mean they're immune to the problem of being created by humans for humans, let alone make them the subject of what amounts to downright worship. The local auto repair shops here in the Great White North have plenty of AcurInfiniLexToys on their parking lots to illustrate that niggling detail. They're automobiles, and they wear out. Whether they run on Sake, Auslese, Chianti, Strongbow (save for the Lucas electrics), or Budweiser, that doesn't change.
Post by: mtnbkr on September 03, 2008, 09:31:31 AM
Cars are too expensive to take risks with. So far, Toyota has been the safe bet for me. It's a boring automotive existence, but it leaves money for other pursuits.
Chris
Post by: Manedwolf on September 03, 2008, 09:37:43 AM
Post by: mfree on September 03, 2008, 10:51:23 AM
I *may* need a clutch in the next 20k miles. *might* break the AC system open and see if something's starting to block the drainage tube also. Could also probably stand a steering box sometime this decade, it's got a touch of play and that bugs me (I grew up with rack and pinion steering in everything).
Practically? That's absofrickinlutely stellar for any make vehicle. There are winners and there are losers...
Post by: Manedwolf on September 16, 2008, 09:55:11 AM
Reality:
BOOOOORRRING. Dammit, GM...You build the hype, then you disappoint everyone with yet another sneaker/jellybean bland family sedan, and you wonder why you're losing marketshare!
Quote
"The majority of [the comments] are negative," Lyle Dennis, a New Jersey neurologist who runs the blog GM-Volt.com, said last week. "A lot of people are saying they're very disappointed and 'take me off the [waiting] list.' "
Post by: K Frame on September 16, 2008, 10:25:46 AM
Right now it's 11 years old (I keep meaning to get the airbag inspected, as is recommended) and I intend to keep driving it for at least several more years.
At that time, I'll replace it with another Outback or Legacy.
"The last straw was it trying to kill me in rush hour traffic on I66."
Yeah, but we've all tried to kill you in rush hour traffic on I66.
My experience with GM products comes mainly from family and friend cars, but it's not a record of happiness and joy. From the 1930s onwards my Grandfather was a confirmed Oldsmobile man. Until the 1980s, when he had three successive lemons.
Post by: mtnbkr on September 16, 2008, 10:41:29 AM
"The last straw was it trying to kill me in rush hour traffic on I66."
Yeah, but we've all tried to kill you in rush hour traffic on I66.
Yeah, but we've all tried to kill you in rush hour traffic on I66.
Yeah, but normally inanimate objects leave me alone.
Chris
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 16, 2008, 12:52:48 PM
Post by: Boomhauer on September 16, 2008, 12:54:34 PM
Why is anyone expecting the Volt to be some hot sports car? It's better lookin' than the Prius. Sheesh.
Well, I'll give you that.
Post by: Manedwolf on September 16, 2008, 12:56:16 PM
Why is anyone expecting the Volt to be some hot sports car? It's better lookin' than the Prius. Sheesh.
Because they're trying to sell it to people who will not pay $40,000 for a bland car?
Post by: freedom lover on September 16, 2008, 01:00:41 PM
Quote
will not pay $40,000
If gas goes over $5 per gallon and they invent batteries with a longer life then city commuters will probably be willing (whether or not they're able) to pay.
Post by: K Frame on September 16, 2008, 01:21:48 PM
And your market research and hard numbers that support that supposition are... where?
I have a funny feeling that the Volt is aimed at a consumer segment that really doesn't give much of a damn about the looks of the car.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 16, 2008, 02:38:09 PM
People aren't going to buy the Volt based on how it looks. They're going to buy it based on how it makes them look. As with the Prius, the object is to confer planet-saving cred on the owners. As long as the Volt is readily identifiable as a hybrid, then it should sell well.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 16, 2008, 02:43:56 PM
I have a funny feeling that the Volt is aimed at a consumer segment that really doesn't give much of a damn about the looks of the car.
That's what I was thinking. I could be wrong, but I expect people will buy it because they want better mileage, or they want to save the planet.
That concept looks pretty ugly, by the way. At least the finished product is bland, rather than going for some "ooh, look at me" concept, like the Prius or Insight.
Post by: ArfinGreebly on September 16, 2008, 03:23:28 PM
Or maybe a Plymouth Prowler.
How about a Shelby Cobra? Early '60s Jag XKE?
Those are all light cars. Low drag coefficient. Outstanding road handling.
Actually pretty.
Then you wouldn't have to worry about the price point.
Imagine. Green cred AND looking fabulous.
Post by: HankB on September 17, 2008, 04:42:14 AM
. . . BOOOOORRRING. Dammit, GM...You build the hype, then you disappoint everyone with yet another sneaker/jellybean bland family sedan, and you wonder why you're losing marketshare!
Silly man, you think YOU know better than the guy with the $300 haircut and a corner office? Why, with people like you in charge GM might merely be breaking even, rather than turning in the great financials they have been under the stewardship of their current executives . . .
Post by: Manedwolf on September 17, 2008, 04:45:52 AM
"Because they're trying to sell it to people who will not pay $40,000 for a bland car?"
And your market research and hard numbers that support that supposition are... where?
I have a funny feeling that the Volt is aimed at a consumer segment that really doesn't give much of a damn about the looks of the car.
And your market research and hard numbers that support that supposition are... where?
I have a funny feeling that the Volt is aimed at a consumer segment that really doesn't give much of a damn about the looks of the car.
And they couldn't have at least distinguished it from the Malibu at all?
It's not even going to be out till 2011. If they finish the battery. If they move as fast on styling changes at they move on everything else, it's going to look like a new old car.
GM still turns like a supertanker. Competitors turn like a speedboat.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 17, 2008, 12:08:28 PM
Post by: Balog on September 17, 2008, 04:19:01 PM
By and large, most Jap cars are more reliable than most "American" cars. Of course no maker is perfect, but the odds of gettting reamed are much lower with rice, in most cases. Note I am speaking of cars, not full size trucks which may be a bit different.
Post by: Declaration Day on September 17, 2008, 04:26:00 PM
And they couldn't have at least distinguished it from the Malibu at all?
Malibu? The only thing the Volt shares with the Malibu is its corporate badge. The Malibu is one of the best-looking American cars to come out in a long time.
The Volt does, however, look just like a Ford Fusion with Chevy head and tail lights.
Malibu:
Volt:
Fusion:
IMO that's a close enough design to warrant a lawsuit!
Post by: Gewehr98 on September 17, 2008, 04:44:36 PM
Please re-design the Chevy Volt to incorporate more rice.
If you do, I'll buy one.
Sincerely,
Manedwolf"
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 17, 2008, 06:13:33 PM
It's prettier than a Prius, so that's something. Maybe.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 17, 2008, 06:22:02 PM
I can only hope so
Post by: K Frame on September 17, 2008, 07:25:41 PM
And that's so bad.... why?
By the time it hits the market, it's not going to look exactly as it looks now.
That car is the prototype. By the time it hits full production, the design engineers will have restyled the body panels.