Post by: Ben on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/10/uselections2008.barackobama
The world's verdict will be harsh if the US rejects the man it yearns for
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
All comments ()
* Jonathan Freedland
*
o Jonathan Freedland
o The Guardian,
o Wednesday September 10 2008
o Article history
The feeling is familiar. I had it four years ago and four years before that: a sinking feeling in the stomach. It's a kind of physical pessimism which says: "It's happening again. The Democrats are about to lose an election they should win - and it could not matter more."
In my head, I'm not as anxious for Barack Obama's chances as I was for John Kerry's in 2004 or Al Gore's in 2000. He is a better candidate than both put together, and all the empirical evidence says this year favours Democrats more than any since 1976. But still, I can't shake off the gloom.
Look at yesterday's opinion polls, which have John McCain either in a dead heat with Obama or narrowly ahead. Given the well-documented tendency of African-American candidates to perform better in polls than in elections - thanks to people who say they will vote for a black man but don't - this suggests Obama is now trailing badly. More troubling was the ABC News-Washington Post survey which found McCain ahead among white women by 53% to 41%. Two weeks ago, Obama had a 15% lead among women. There is only one explanation for that turnaround, and it was not McCain's tranquilliser of a convention speech: Obama's lead has been crushed by the Palin bounce.
So you can understand my pessimism. But it's now combined with a rising frustration. I watch as the Democrats stumble, uncertain how to take on Sarah Palin. Fight too hard, and the Republican machine, echoed by the ditto-heads in the conservative commentariat on talk radio and cable TV, will brand Democrats sexist, elitist snobs, patronising a small-town woman. Do nothing, and Palin's rise will continue unchecked, her novelty making even Obama look stale, her star power energising and motivating the Republican base.
So somehow Palin slips out of reach, no revelation - no matter how jaw-dropping or career-ending were it applied to a normal candidate - doing sufficient damage to slow her apparent march to power, dragging the charisma-deprived McCain behind her.
We know one of Palin's first acts as mayor of tiny Wasilla, Alaska was to ask the librarian the procedure for banning books. Oh, but that was a "rhetorical" question, says the McCain-Palin campaign. We know Palin is not telling the truth when she says she was against the notorious $400m "Bridge to Nowhere" project in Alaska - in fact, she campaigned for it - but she keeps repeating the claim anyway. She denounces the dipping of snouts in the Washington trough - but hired costly lobbyists to make sure Alaska got a bigger helping of federal dollars than any other state.
She claims to be a fiscal conservative, but left Wasilla saddled with debts it had never had before. She even seems to have claimed "per diem" allowances - taxpayers' money meant for out-of-town travel - when she was staying in her own house.
Yet somehow none of this is yet leaving a dent. The result is that a politician who conservative blogger Andrew Sullivan calls a "Christianist" - seeking to politicise Christianity the way Islamists politicise Islam - could soon be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Remember, this is a woman who once addressed a church congregation, saying of her work as governor - transport, policing and education - "really all of that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God".
If Sarah Palin defies the conventional wisdom that says elections are determined by the top of the ticket, and somehow wins this for McCain, what will be the reaction? Yes, blue-state America will go into mourning once again, feeling estranged in its own country. A generation of young Americans - who back Obama in big numbers - will turn cynical, concluding that politics doesn't work after all. And, most depressing, many African-Americans will decide that if even Barack Obama - with all his conspicuous gifts - could not win, then no black man can ever be elected president.
But what of the rest of the world? This is the reaction I fear most. For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory. Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities, with the pattern repeated in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. If November 4 were a global ballot, Obama would win it handsomely. If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.
The crowd of 200,000 that rallied to hear him in Berlin in July did so not only because of his charisma, but also because they know he, like the majority of the world's population, opposed the Iraq war. McCain supported it, peddling the lie that Saddam was linked to 9/11. Non-Americans sense that Obama will not ride roughshod over the international system but will treat alliances and global institutions seriously: McCain wants to bypass the United Nations in favour of a US-friendly League of Democracies. McCain might talk a good game on climate change, but a repeated floor chant at the Republican convention was "Drill, baby, drill!", as if the solution to global warming were not a radical rethink of the US's entire energy system but more offshore oil rigs.
If Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show us four more years of the Bush-Cheney finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.
Until now, anti-Americanism has been exaggerated and much misunderstood: outside a leftist hardcore, it has mostly been anti-Bushism, opposition to this specific administration. But if McCain wins in November, that might well change. Suddenly Europeans and others will conclude that their dispute is with not only one ruling clique, but Americans themselves. For it will have been the American people, not the politicians, who will have passed up a once-in-a-generation chance for a fresh start - a fresh start the world is yearning for.
And the manner of that decision will matter, too. If it is deemed to have been about race - that Obama was rejected because of his colour - the world's verdict will be harsh. In that circumstance, Slate's Jacob Weisberg wrote recently, international opinion would conclude that "the United States had its day, but in the end couldn't put its own self-interest ahead of its crazy irrationality over race".
Even if it's not ethnic prejudice, but some other aspect of the culture wars, that proves decisive, the point still holds. For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars - on the trivial basis that a hockey mom is likable and seems down to earth, would be to convey a lack of seriousness, a fleeing from reality, that does indeed suggest a nation in, to quote Weisberg, "historical decline". Let's not forget, McCain's campaign manager boasts that this election is "not about the issues."
Of course I know that even to mention Obama's support around the world is to hurt him. Incredibly, that large Berlin crowd damaged Obama at home, branding him the "candidate of Europe" and making him seem less of a patriotic American. But what does that say about today's America, that the world's esteem is now unwanted? If Americans reject Obama, they will be sending the clearest possible message to the rest of us - and, make no mistake, we shall hear it.
· freedland@guardian.co.uk
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
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For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars
Actually the amount of casualties from wars and violence on the planet is at a historical low, but hey. Who's counting?
Post by: wmenorr67 on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
This is our "leader". Take care of your problems and leave us the hell alone.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
Tell me again why we should care what they think?
Russia? Russia is ruled by a KGB thug and they're okay with that, they haven't revolted and tossed him out. Germany has record unemployment because they've allowed themselves to become a welfare state that is now absolutely dependent on Russian gas supplies as well. The UK, Germany and Spain are going into a recession due to their asinine economic policies.
We're doing a hell of a lot better than most of the world. They can get their own houses in order. Until then, WE are the example they should be looking at. We must be doing something right, because people keep wanting to come here!!!
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For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars - on the trivial basis that a hockey mom is likable and seems down to earth, would be to convey a lack of seriousness, a fleeing from reality, that does indeed suggest a nation in, to quote Weisberg, "historical decline".
As opposed to a junior senator who voted "present" most of the time, has no real experience besides organizing better ways to bum more food stamps from the government with a known terrorist, and before that, did nose candy in a NY apartment with someone he traveled to Pakistan with and won't talk about. Right.
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
Post by: agricola on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
As for the article itself, it is so deeply risible as to defy rational analysis, but I do especially like the claim that Obama is "a better candidate than both (Kerry and Gore) put together". Werent Kerry and Gore ahead at this time in their campaigns?
Post by: Boomhauer on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
America declared independence for the exact purpose of not having to listen to what some dudes in Europe have to say any more.
I'm so putting that in my sig line.
Post by: K Frame on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
OK, first off, when the hell did the rest of the world elect our president?
"If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama."
Ah, but the free world doesn't choose its leader. The only reason the United States is the leader of the free world is because we didn't stupidly destroy ourselves twice in one fricking century. We just had to go in and clean up the mess that resulted from a long litany of European failures.
Secondly, what are they going to do, taunt us?
Third, where the hell was this guy during the 1980s? "For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory."
Hello, Reagan at the Brandenburg Gate? Millions of Eastern Europeans looking to him as their only hope for ridding their lives of Communism? Oh, I forgot. To this guy, Communism is probably a good thing...
Any more, I'm getting to the point of viewing politicans for national office by the relative merits of how much they will piss off Euroweenies.
I'd vote for Genghis Kahn for president if he could make the European Union soil itself.
As for the rest of the world going from hating Bush to hating America based on the possible outcome of this election, I would view that as a PERFECT opportunity for the United States to start repaying that ardor by reining in the vast amounts of money and aide we give these so called friendly nations.
"Hey, you hate America? Well, guess what, the only reason your festering sewer has a sewer and clean water is because of America. But, since you now hate America, you don't deserve our help. Americans need the same things as you, and you know, Americans tend to be a bit more appreciative of the assistance they get. So... bugger off and enjoy your AIDS, malaria, water-borne illnesses, and your famine."
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
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The world's verdict will be harsh if the US rejects the man it yearns for.
If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.
If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.
Fine. Make him Secretary General of the UN and get him the heck out of the US. Then he can go "lead the world."
In the meantime, we'll have John and Sara do the heavy lifting until 2012, when we can get a real conservative in the #1 chair.
Post by: longeyes on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
The world doesn't hate America, the Left does.
Post by: Standing Wolf on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
Post by: coppertales on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
HK extends its "You suck and we hate you" policy to America in general, not just American civilians.
Post by: MagnumDweeb on March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM
Not saying we don't have our own house to put in order, that's going to take time and need to start sooner than later but to borrow from Russell Crowe in "Gladiator", America is the only light that shines in a dark and cruel world (except/add for Switzerland, Finnland, Denmark, Israel, Caymans, Georgia (country), some others too), should America fall so should all that is great and good in the world falls with it.
Post by: El Tejon on September 10, 2008, 08:22:50 AM
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I'm a fanatic of America . . . speaks or learns to speak english . . . irregardless of origin
Sometimes the fanatics are the most ironic.
English language police=>
Annoy the Media and Europeans, vote Palin in '08.
Post by: 41magsnub on September 10, 2008, 08:31:53 AM
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I'm a fanatic of America . . . speaks or learns to speak english . . . irregardless of origin
Sometimes the fanatics are the most ironic.
English language police=>
Annoy the Media and Europeans, vote Palin in '08.
Reminds me of:
Post by: HankB on September 10, 2008, 08:41:44 AM
. . . Secondly, what are they going to do, taunt us?
Uh oh, this could get ugly . . .Quote from: Frenchman
I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries . . . now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.
. . . with apologies to Monty Python . . .
Post by: Teknoid on September 10, 2008, 08:46:09 AM
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For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars
Actually the amount of casualties from wars and violence on the planet is at a historical low, but hey. Who's counting?
Gee, the planet is "boiling", yet the average temperature is lower than ten years ago, and the ice caps are GROWING.
Must be some really good Kool-Aid
Besides that, judging from the governments some of these places have, it sounds like an endorsement for McCain/Palin. Do we really want the kind of leadership they seem to like?
Post by: xavier fremboe on September 10, 2008, 11:06:28 AM
Post by: MrRezister on September 10, 2008, 11:12:31 AM
Secondly, what are they going to do, taunt us?
Hank beat me too it, but I don't care.
Take that, "rest of the world".
Post by: agricola on September 10, 2008, 01:30:15 PM
Translation: "If you don't emasculate yourselves during this election cycle, we will continue to be pissy."
Indeed.
The sad part (for me at least) is that over here our choice come the next General Election is between any number of identikit political-class drones who are indistinguishable in every meaningful aspect (including policy) apart from the colour of their rosettes. While you get to choose between McCain and Obama, we get to have Brown, whoever finishes Brown off, or Cameron, foisted upon us. All of our choices are to the left of Obama.
edit: that said, none of our elections have featured a fashionable jewellery symbol that benefits one of the candidates, so I guess I still pity you all:
http://www.thechangering.com/mod_home
Post by: Regolith on September 10, 2008, 01:56:25 PM
It's in our blood. We fought at least two wars to remain independent from Europe (three, if you count WWII - though whether or not Hitler could have invaded the Americas if he succeeded in Europe is suspect), so them trying to help a presidential candidate actually hurts that candidate in the long run.
Post by: drewtam on September 10, 2008, 06:04:56 PM
And for the obligatory snide comment...
If they love Obama so much, they can have him.
Post by: erictank on September 10, 2008, 06:25:37 PM
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The world's verdict will be harsh if the US rejects the man it yearns for
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
Shakin' in my boots, Mr. Freedland. Shakin' in my boots.
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The feeling is familiar. I had it four years ago and four years before that: a sinking feeling in the stomach. It's a kind of physical pessimism which says: "It's happening again. The Democrats are about to lose an election they should win - and it could not matter more."
Well, obviously if you've had this feeling twice before, you were dead wrong about how "...it could not matter more.", now, weren't you? So, perhaps you ought to reassess the situation.
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In my head, I'm not as anxious for Barack Obama's chances as I was for John Kerry's in 2004 or Al Gore's in 2000. He is a better candidate than both put together, and all the empirical evidence says this year favours Democrats more than any since 1976.
Isn't Obama BEHIND where those two were at this point in the campaign?
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So you can understand my pessimism. But it's now combined with a rising frustration. I watch as the Democrats stumble, uncertain how to take on Sarah Palin. Fight too hard, and the Republican machine, echoed by the ditto-heads in the conservative commentariat on talk radio and cable TV, will brand Democrats sexist, elitist snobs, patronising a small-town woman. Do nothing, and Palin's rise will continue unchecked, her novelty making even Obama look stale, her star power energising and motivating the Republican base.
Yeah, it really sucks for the Republicans to have done your bit better than you do, huh? But hey, Democrats have been playing the "untouchable" card since pretty early on in this election, so that must mean it's okay, right?
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If Sarah Palin defies the conventional wisdom that says elections are determined by the top of the ticket, and somehow wins this for McCain, what will be the reaction? Yes, blue-state America will go into mourning once again, feeling estranged in its own country. A generation of young Americans - who back Obama in big numbers - will turn cynical, concluding that politics doesn't work after all.
But it would be just FINE if red-state America has to deal with such an outcome in the case of an Obama win - after all, they're just red-staters, right? Their politics SHOULDN'T work? Their cynicism and estrangement don't matter, right?
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And, most depressing, many African-Americans will decide that if even Barack Obama - with all his conspicuous gifts - could not win, then no black man can ever be elected president.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Bold words. STIRRING words. Words that MEAN something, that are IMPORTANT. But not words that are particularly relevant, apparently, as compared to the prospect of getting a black man elected to the Presidency, regardless of the content of his character - or his political platform. I saw comments to this effect a few months ago, people of African descent saying "Y'know, I'm a Republican, and I believe in my party's platform - but by God, I might just vote for Obama just because he's got dark skin and a decent shot at the White House." WTF?!? If you turn that around, so that a Democrat is singing the praises of John McCain because of his lack of melanin pigmentation, you couldn't hear yourself THINK over the screams of "RACISM!!!!1!" - with some justification, I think. Why was there no notice taken of these comments, no one in the media, say, pointing out the blatant racism, the whole-hearted abandonment of Dr. King's dream, when black leaders made those comments?
Guess "character" doesn't mean all that much after all.
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But what of the rest of the world? This is the reaction I fear most. For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory. Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities, with the pattern repeated in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. If November 4 were a global ballot, Obama would win it handsomely. If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.
Tell ya what, guys - when this is all over and done with, you can HAVE him.
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If Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show us four more years of the Bush-Cheney finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.
Feel free to include us out the next time you have some sort of internal strife or natural disaster you'd like our help dealing with, then. So far, you've been screaming at us for wrongly being "the world's policemen", and screaming at us for failing to do enough in that outside-appointed task, as well. Some of us over here are getting more than a little tired of you ungrateful bastards trying to have it both ways.
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Of course I know that even to mention Obama's support around the world is to hurt him.
Then why'd you write this rant, anyways, Jon?
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Incredibly, that large Berlin crowd damaged Obama at home, branding him the "candidate of Europe" and making him seem less of a patriotic American. But what does that say about today's America, that the world's esteem is now unwanted?
I forget, did France, Spain, Germany, the UK, any of the nations of Europe, care what U.S. opinion of their leaders was? Did those nations, those peoples, actively seek out the approval of residents of the United States when they were holding their own elections? Do they care about our opinions about their sitting leaders and their actions? No? Then why on Earth do you imagine that we should care about YOUR opinion of OUR election, OUR leader?
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If Americans reject Obama, they will be sending the clearest possible message to the rest of us - and, make no mistake, we shall hear it.
Good - saves you a trip to the audiometry booth, I guess.
Post by: longeyes on September 10, 2008, 08:19:42 PM
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If Americans reject Obama, they will be sending the clearest possible message to the rest of us - and, make no mistake, we shall hear it.
Can we count on that?
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 10, 2008, 08:51:36 PM
Post by: S_O_Laban on September 10, 2008, 09:10:34 PM
Post by: xavier fremboe on September 10, 2008, 10:20:54 PM
Post by: Waitone on September 11, 2008, 03:54:19 AM
Looks like he was right.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 11, 2008, 08:18:43 AM
He's guaranteed to be almost always right, 99.6% of the time.
Post by: Wildalaska on September 11, 2008, 04:04:45 PM
Generally speaking.... when Euros are sure we are doing the wrong thing.... it's a ringing endorsement that we are on the right track.
Great place to visit, but I couldn't live there. Funny, I was just in France and Germany, the Germans I was hanging around with were far less critical of the US than their press would have you believe...then again, these guys all had jobs.
I tried not to talk to anyone in France, except Belgians.
Post by: macadore on September 11, 2008, 06:07:18 PM
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I forget, did France, Spain, Germany, the UK, any of the nations of Europe, care what U.S. opinion of their leaders was? Did those nations, those peoples, actively seek out the approval of residents of the United States when they were holding their own elections? Do they care about our opinions about their sitting leaders and their actions?
France and Germany did and do. Look at who they elected. These countries have a left wing press just like we do. The French and Germans I know are fine people who respect and appreciate the U.S. Paris has major avenues named for Washington and Wilson. Paris, like New York City, is a large crowded city with a lot of immigrants who are brainwashed and who believe what they read in Le Monde. The French people I have met dont take Le Monde any more serious than most people here take the New York Times. My wife is German and her family is more pro American than your typical Democrat. Post by: 86thecat on September 13, 2008, 10:08:01 PM
Post by: seeker_two on September 14, 2008, 03:54:13 AM
Post by: TommyGunn on September 16, 2008, 05:01:28 AM
Puuuuhhleeeaasssseeee .....
I don't give a rat's derriere what the world thinks.
They'll conclude we're "racist" if Obamn
It seems to me that the same part of the world that whines about America inserting its nose into other country's business unwarrantedly are themselves trying to claim they have some "say" in American politics ....
Post by: Boomhauer on September 16, 2008, 05:07:38 AM
Other than that, welcome to APS!
Post by: richyoung on September 16, 2008, 08:59:45 AM
Alas, it pains me to admit, we should care... here's why.
1. American culture is derived from Europe.
That's right - & it's not exactly a military secret. Democracy, our language, money, (back when we had real money...),common law, weights and measures, agricultural crops, tools, fundamental military precepts, even our Judeo-Christian heritage and our booze - all brought over from Europe. We drink "Scotch", not "Malaysian"...
2. Two World Wars and the Cold War had European theaters - and Uncle Sam had roles in all three, big roles in two of them...
3. Europe is a good spot to put interceptor missles to destroy Islamic ICBMs shot at us over the North Pole.
4. Its a Global Economy.
...none of which is a reason to vote for Obama. ALL of which are why we need to do a much better job of educating the world WHY no one should vote for Obama, or any form of socialism/communism/fascism/nazism/collectivism.
Post by: Crow1108 on September 17, 2008, 04:12:33 PM
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And the manner of that decision will matter, too. If it is deemed to have been about race - that Obama was rejected because of his colour - the world's verdict will be harsh.
Anyone who plays the race card against someone who doesn't want to vote for Obama is pretty ignorant in my book. If Larry Elder were to run for political office, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat.
Post by: K Frame on September 17, 2008, 07:38:56 PM
That may have been a far more relevant point 175 years ago when the United States was still trying to find its way in the world. But today, it's not. American culture has evolved on its own and is now a tremendous influence on Europe. It's hardly a one way street anymore.
Our system of Government owes as much to Asia (Greece) as it does to Europe (Rome). The American concept of Constitutional representative government as to how it defines the rights of citizens and places limits on government is our own, and has been tremendously influential around the world.
The Judeo-Christian heritage is also originally derived from Asia and was only transplanted to the US via Europe.
Agricultural crops? Corn is arguably our most important crop, and it's a New World crop. Globally, corn is the most important cereal crop there is, wheat is second (it originated in Asia), and rice is third.
Agriculturally, tomatoes are also a New World crop, as are potatoes, and both of those have had a tremendous impact on European.
As for alcohol, we also drink a lot of beer, and beer is another Asian contribution to world culture.
Sorry, American culture isn't some lockstep transplant from Northern Europe.
Post by: drewtam on September 17, 2008, 07:53:02 PM
Should we care? If so, why?
Alas, it pains me to admit, we should care... here's why.
1. American culture is derived from Europe.
That's right - & it's not exactly a military secret. Democracy, our language, money, (back when we had real money...),common law, weights and measures, agricultural crops, tools, fundamental military precepts, even our Judeo-Christian heritage and our booze - all brought over from Europe. We drink "Scotch", not "Malaysian"...
2. Two World Wars and the Cold War had European theaters - and Uncle Sam had roles in all three, big roles in two of them...
3. Europe is a good spot to put interceptor missles to destroy Islamic ICBMs shot at us over the North Pole.
4. Its a Global Economy.
Alas, it pains me to admit, we should care... here's why.
1. American culture is derived from Europe.
That's right - & it's not exactly a military secret. Democracy, our language, money, (back when we had real money...),common law, weights and measures, agricultural crops, tools, fundamental military precepts, even our Judeo-Christian heritage and our booze - all brought over from Europe. We drink "Scotch", not "Malaysian"...
2. Two World Wars and the Cold War had European theaters - and Uncle Sam had roles in all three, big roles in two of them...
3. Europe is a good spot to put interceptor missles to destroy Islamic ICBMs shot at us over the North Pole.
4. Its a Global Economy.
Completely disagree, as my previous post in this thread explains. Our cultural heritage may have started in Europe (and that's true for many central and south American immigrants as well). But sooo much time has passed that their culture is not nearly as relevant anymore and does not translate here anymore.
Our democracy has moved in a completely different direction than theirs. Our concepts of total war came from the civil war, not from Europe. Our concept of lightening war did not start with Germany, but with us during WW1. Our ancestors were known for their wild charges into enemy trenches with early tanks.
Our race relations and issues are not based centuries of African and Indian colonial power that lasted into the 50's and 60's. But rather, left overs of the slave trade before our country was founded; and the fallout of a terrible civil war.
Our religious history is completely different from European religious history. From the very beginning the confederation of colonies was a patchwork of widely varying religious states. To this day Europe does not have the kind of variation we have, regardless of the influence of the Swiss and German protestant of yesteryear and Islam today. Their religious interest was waning to apathy about the time US fervor and piety were just getting started. We moved on in a very different ideological direction.
My point on can be summed up: just because our history goes back to the Romans and the Romans had a Senate and America has a Senate, does not mean that our cultures have any relevance to each other. Regardless of the ancestry that binds, we have no relation to each other.
Post by: drewtam on September 17, 2008, 07:56:01 PM
Post by: wmenorr67 on September 17, 2008, 08:44:24 PM
Looks like Mike responded while I was typing away. No matter, we seem to share the same conclusion.
Well you know what they say about great minds? Now we just need to find a few.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 21, 2008, 06:22:42 AM
Post by: K Frame on September 21, 2008, 06:30:58 AM
It's Turkey that straddles Asia and Europe.
Post by: Laurent du Var on September 21, 2008, 10:07:54 AM
widely read in the whole world to get some of our armed
polite citizens going oohhgguh, ooohguh, oohgguh - how dares the rest
of the world tell us who to vote for.
I would like on behalf of the rest of the world to which I belong and as an
Eurpoean with Judeo-Christian (Asian?) roots and (Asian?) Greek politics and Roman justice to put your mind at ease.
For I do not care who is becoming your next president, and I'm not alone. We have truly enough difficulties back home in good, old Europe, and you can keep your Ex POWs, your disavantaged minorities, your super trooper teenage pregnancies, the Lehman brothers, your Ninja loans, your Action Film Bodybuilders, Ike and Britney Spears. There, all yours ! If you let me go to Kentucky fried Chicken once in a while and let me hang out here a little, that'll do for me....
Post by: Stand_watie on September 22, 2008, 05:19:54 AM
All it takes is an article from the guardian, a paper
widely read in the whole world to get some of our armed
polite citizens going oohhgguh, ooohguh, oohgguh - how dares the rest
of the world tell us who to vote for.
I would like on behalf of the rest of the world to which I belong and as an
Eurpoean with Judeo-Christian (Asian?) roots and (Asian?) Greek politics and Roman justice to put your mind at ease.
For I do not care who is becoming your next president, and I'm not alone. We have truly enough difficulties back home in good, old Europe, and you can keep your Ex POWs, your disavantaged minorities, your super trooper teenage pregnancies, the Lehman brothers, your Ninja loans, your Action Film Bodybuilders, Ike and Britney Spears. There, all yours ! If you let me go to Kentucky fried Chicken once in a while and let me hang out here a little, that'll do for me....
widely read in the whole world to get some of our armed
polite citizens going oohhgguh, ooohguh, oohgguh - how dares the rest
of the world tell us who to vote for.
I would like on behalf of the rest of the world to which I belong and as an
Eurpoean with Judeo-Christian (Asian?) roots and (Asian?) Greek politics and Roman justice to put your mind at ease.
For I do not care who is becoming your next president, and I'm not alone. We have truly enough difficulties back home in good, old Europe, and you can keep your Ex POWs, your disavantaged minorities, your super trooper teenage pregnancies, the Lehman brothers, your Ninja loans, your Action Film Bodybuilders, Ike and Britney Spears. There, all yours ! If you let me go to Kentucky fried Chicken once in a while and let me hang out here a little, that'll do for me....
Yeah, Laurent, but we wouldn't mind Europeans like you having an opinion...it's the kind of people who write that Guardian article that we want to pee in the eye of...
Post by: Halo on September 22, 2008, 09:49:36 AM
Quote
She claims to be a fiscal conservative, but left Wasilla saddled with debts it had never had before. She even seems to have claimed "per diem" allowances - taxpayers' money meant for out-of-town travel - when she was staying in her own house.
This is not the first time I've seen this accusation leveled at her. By Alaska law the governor's residence is considered to be Juneau, so when a governor goes to their "real" residence they claim a per diem for the time they are there. There is nothing underhanded about it, but I know that means nothing to her most rabid detractors.
Post by: Laurent du Var on September 22, 2008, 11:11:27 AM
Yeah, Laurent, but we wouldn't mind Europeans like you having an opinion...it's the kind of people who write that Guardian article that we want to pee in the eye of...
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Well, I do have an opinion. Fairly easy to guess which one, since I hang out here and not at DU. But I wouldn't dream of telling Americans on who to vote for.
Only an Idiot would do so. And an idiot is an idiot first and lives in Idiotistan on the continent of Idiote in an idiot world. I wouldn't want you to call him an European first to describe him and make me look like him...
Post by: HankB on September 22, 2008, 11:36:18 AM
. . . you can keep your Ex POWs, your disavantaged minorities, your super trooper teenage pregnancies, the Lehman brothers, your Ninja loans, your Action Film Bodybuilders, Ike and Britney Spears. There, all yours ! If you let me go to Kentucky fried Chicken once in a while and let me hang out here a little, that'll do for me....
No, no, we're trying to send you all of these . . . really we are. Gratis. No need to thank us, either, please accept them with our compliments. And no need to share them with us once they arrive.We'll even throw in Kentucky Fried
Post by: roo_ster on September 22, 2008, 04:33:26 PM
You write you have a hankerin' for Kentucky Fried Chicken. I must admit to liking the Original Recipe quite a bit myself.
But, I must give the French their due, or at least influence. For their influence has created one of the best fast food chains ever to grace Our Fair Land:
Popeyes.
Fried chicken with a cajun twist.
They produce the best spicy fried chicken and their red beans and rice is a meal unto itself.
Good eats if you have to eat on the go.