Post by: 280plus on October 01, 2008, 03:07:29 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 04:09:06 AM
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
Post by: 280plus on October 01, 2008, 04:49:59 AM
Hmmm, wonder what copper is doing...
Post by: Nick1911 on October 01, 2008, 04:52:02 AM
Same reason as oil. Commodity.
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
That's interesting. So do silver minting firms have a perceivable effect on the cost of minted silver due to artificial market shortages?
Post by: 280plus on October 01, 2008, 04:54:28 AM
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24429607-5005200,00.html
October 01, 2008
COPPER fell to an 18-month low before paring losses amid recession fears a day after the US Congress voted down a bailout plan.
Talk that Congress may reach some kind of deal by the end of the week and speculation that central banks could slash interest rates eased risk aversion.
US stocks rebounded overnight after Wall Streets Dow index in the previous session suffered its biggest one-day points decline.
Copper for delivery in three months on the London Metal Exchange sank to $US6170 per tonne, its lowest level since March 2007, before closing at $US6360, down $US80 from the previous session's close.
In New York, copper for December delivery shed US2.75 cents to finish at $US2.8790 a pound on the New York Mercantile Exchange's COMEX division. Earlier, it fell as far as $US2.7650, its lowest price point since late March 2007.
Other base metals also tumbled. Aluminium dropped to an eight-month low of $US2405 per tonne and nickel fell to $US15,588, its lowest level since April 2006.
People see a continuous deterioration in the economic outlook, analyst Gayle Berry at Barclays Capital said.
Industrial raw materials have taken a drubbing since touching record highs mid-year. Copper prices were off by 30 per cent since hitting records of $US8940 per tonne in London and $US4.27 a pound in New York.
The declines have accelerated in the past few days.
The sharp pull-back in prices suggested the market was already discounting a significant reduction in demand for the red metal, analysts said.
If we go into a global recession and it impacts worldwide demand for copper significantly, prices will probably continue to adjust lower, said David Rinehimer, director of Citi Futures Perspective in New York.
As the credit crisis spreads to European banks, metals markets are bracing for a weak second half, with even top global metal consumer China expected to slow down.
The question mark is what is the Chinese economy going to look like for the rest of this year? said Thys Terblanche, director and global head of mining and metals at Standard Bank.
We continue to be carefully optimistic ... but China is a key driver.
Over the past year, as the credit crisis escalated, the bull story for commodities remained intact, with demand from emerging countries -- mainly China -- taking up the slack as the United States and Europe slowed down.
But China's refined copper imports dropped 0.02 per cent in August and demand for copper grew at 4.8 per cent in the first eight months of the year, far below the 36 per cent surge in 2007.
Chinese factories are reportedly closing as consumer demand fails and industrialists attempt to protect assets, analyst John Meyer at Fairfax said in a research note.
The Shanghai Futures Exchange will be shut this week for National Day holidays.
Post by: 280plus on October 01, 2008, 04:57:09 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 05:02:27 AM
Same reason as oil. Commodity.
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
That's interesting. So do silver minting firms have a perceivable effect on the cost of minted silver due to artificial market shortages?
It's not "artificial market shortages", it's just good business.
The noname mints are free to make as many bars as they want. They do the same, pretty much.
Would you make a whole lot of a product if you weren't making money on it? Casting metals costs money! Or would you scale back production until the price went up and made it worth your while?
Right now, it's a lot more profitable to just produce silver as bulk containers of silver shot for industrial and jewelry use. And silver producers scaled back every operation from refineries to mining when the film industry, one of the biggest consumers, all but went away in favor of digital.
Post by: Nick1911 on October 01, 2008, 05:12:00 AM
Same reason as oil. Commodity.
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
What's really funny if you peruse economics boards is the metal bugs panicking.
You see, when it's trending downward, or when it's low, the COMEX mints like Matthey don't produce many bars, because it's not that profitable. When they can get a premium for them, they produce more. They would rather the supply remain low so they get a premium over spot on whatever they release. That's a basic "duh" of supply and demand.
Of course, the basement-dwelling bugs are screaming "OMG WORLD SILVER SHORTAGE!!!! CONSPIRACY!!11"
I've noticed that that sort of person is very rarely financially successful. One would wonder why.
That's interesting. So do silver minting firms have a perceivable effect on the cost of minted silver due to artificial market shortages?
It's not "artificial market shortages", it's just good business.
The noname mints are free to make as many bars as they want. They do the same, pretty much.
Would you make a whole lot of a product if you weren't making money on it? Casting metals costs money! Or would you scale back production until the price went up and made it worth your while?
Right now, it's a lot more profitable to just produce silver as bulk containers of silver shot for industrial and jewelry use. And silver producers scaled back every operation from refineries to mining when the film industry, one of the biggest consumers, all but went away in favor of digital.
The question stands. Does this have a significant effect on the price of minted silver?
If I were to chart the spot price of silver and the cost of minted silver, would they track evenly? Or would we see a larger difference between the two as the price drops?
Post by: AJ Dual on October 01, 2008, 05:14:05 AM
OMG!!!
Hmmm, wonder what copper is doing...
Hmmm, wonder what copper is doing...
What has copper been doing lately? Frying the occasional skell and tweaker&
ZZZZZZZZT!
Post by: 280plus on October 01, 2008, 05:31:23 AM
Post by: Gowen on October 01, 2008, 06:15:03 AM
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html
Gold is fluctuating by about $100 right now and silver fluctuating by $2 or $3 dollars, it was up to about $18 at one point.
Post by: oldfart on October 01, 2008, 07:02:39 AM
Oh well, I bought it several years ago at about $6. I can't complain.... yet!
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 07:08:49 AM
I have some money invested in silver so I try to keep up on the market. Last March the spot price went over $21 and last night it closed at $12.06.
Oh well, I bought it several years ago at about $6. I can't complain.... yet!
Oh well, I bought it several years ago at about $6. I can't complain.... yet!
You should have sold it at the peak. That's when I unloaded all I had left. People were paying a premium of about $250 for COMEX 10oz bars at that point. I do not think we'll ever see a Hunt Bros scenario, that was a historic one-time fluke and investors know better now.
Same with the palladium when it spiked up above 600 briefly. Tossed out the Maple Leaves, now it's back down to nearly $200 on the fall of demand from the auto industry and won't go anywhere unless there's a sudden interest in fuel cells, likely.
The problem with metals is that aside from rare spikes, they can and often do stay loooooow for even decades at a time. As commodities fall now, it's likely to go down and stay down for years to come, I'd think.
Post by: longeyes on October 01, 2008, 07:33:46 AM
That doesn't mean you should have everything in gold, silver, or other commodities or expect quick trading profits. They are an insurance policy, no more, a way of preserving capital, not making huge speculative profits. Of course like any investment vehicle they imply a market; if things get bad enough the ability to buy and sell will be...complicated.
If precious metals go nowhere, it will probably be because we in a serious depression and food and ammunition will be the barter of choice.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 09:10:31 AM
Of course like any investment vehicle they imply a market; if things get bad enough the ability to buy and sell will be...complicated.
If things ever got that bad, what would be traded would be goods and services that you can eat and use. Tools, food, ammunition, gasoline, all that.
The reaction to someone offering a shiny Eagle would be one of two things, both of which would frustrate the "insurance" sort.
1. That's probably fake, I saw some at a flea market a long time ago. (There's lots of fake ones).
2. That says one dollar on it, so you get a dollar's worth.
Really, what possible reason would someone have to believe that the silver someone they don't know is offering them for their hard-to-get items is real? Or that it's useful for anything?
I'll give you an example. I don't know if you heard of the "liberty dollars" the Paul sorts were trying to pass off as real currency, but they were unassayed ostensibly-1oz coins that had Paul on them, and said "$20", "United States of America", and "Twenty Dollars". The mint making them encouraged people to offer them to merchants as currency...silver was $15 an ounce at the time.
Reaction? Some people here apparently called the cops. And the mint, for encouraging fraud and producing those coins without any "not legal tender/non-negotiable" on them, was raided by the feds, that's a quite serious law to break.
If it ever got that bad that dollars did an Argentina, you'd have a lot more to worry about than what your money was worth.
Fake Eagle from China, a la any flea market. This is what merchants would assume yours was.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 01, 2008, 09:19:45 AM
I don't see much wisdom in investing in metals. They are speculators' investments only. If you're worried about inflation, there are better investments. Somehow the goldbugs seem to believe that metals are the only assets that rise in price under inflation. Huh? Under inflation, virtually all items tend to rise in price. Might as well own something that returns dividends or interest in addition to just rising in price.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:23:11 AM
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?
You'd be surprised.
Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 09:29:16 AM
Unless they're a trained assayer, jeweler and/or coin numismatist with an acid test kit, no merchant is going to take your precious metals in a crisis situation if they're a smart merchant. They're going to rightly assume that a stranger is offering them a fake.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:34:45 AM
Your point is?
Post by: K Frame on October 01, 2008, 09:36:30 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:37:32 AM
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 01, 2008, 09:41:04 AM
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?
You'd be surprised.
Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
Am I mistaken?
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 09:41:32 AM
Neither is anything else.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
No.
Because gold would be useless. You'd get more trade value from bricks of .22 and bricks of vacuum-sealed coffee.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 01, 2008, 09:42:06 AM
Quote
the point is that gold is not the universal "IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT AND ZOMBIES ARE GOING TO EAT MY BRAINS SO I NEED GOLD BARS TO BUY KRYPTONITE TO KILL THE ZOMBIES!" currency every one just assumes it to be.
It's not?
Sheeit.
Hey- ZOMG, TEOTWAWKI means my nearky 30K rounds of ammo near the reloading bench are worth more than gold? OMFG, I'm sitting on a veritable goldmine! I'll be the king of my neighborhood, woo-hoo! Wait a second, how'd that guy down the street get a beltfed?
[sarcasm off]
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:43:43 AM
Neither is anything else.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
No.
Because gold would be useless. You'd get more trade value from bricks of .22 and bricks of vacuum-sealed coffee.
Again, gold worked in RL SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 09:44:42 AM
Neither is anything else.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
No.
Because gold would be useless. You'd get more trade value from bricks of .22 and bricks of vacuum-sealed coffee.
Again, gold worked in RL SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios.
Such as?
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:47:13 AM
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?
You'd be surprised.
Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
Am I mistaken?
I am referring to the time-period up to 1920, where it was uncertain as to who would end up in charge. People would use gold and diamonds to buy train passage, bribe officials, and so forth. People would keep gold in storage as the emergency currency.
Post 1920 or so, when it became clear the Soviets were in charge, due to gold becoming a liability - and due to War Communism, which resulted in terrible famines, people indeed started trading gold for food.
As a matter of fact, this returned during the Leningrade Blockade, where bread became THE major trading good. A big loaf of bread would be enough for you to buy an entire set of china or a nice pearl necklace.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:47:54 AM
Neither is anything else.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
But if real honest-to-god TEOTWAWKI or long-term SHTF occured today, suddenly you'd thank God for those bars of gold and cans of 5.56.
No.
Because gold would be useless. You'd get more trade value from bricks of .22 and bricks of vacuum-sealed coffee.
Again, gold worked in RL SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios.
Such as?
Russia, 1917.
Poland, 1939.
Leningrad, 1942.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 09:49:19 AM
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?
You'd be surprised.
Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
Am I mistaken?
I am referring to the time-period up to 1920, where it was uncertain as to who would end up in charge. People would use gold and diamonds to buy train passage, bribe officials, and so forth. People would keep gold in storage as the emergency currency.
Post 1920 or so, when it became clear the Soviets were in charge, due to gold becoming a liability - and due to War Communism, which resulted in terrible famines, people indeed started trading gold for food.
As a matter of fact, this returned during the Leningrade Blockade, where bread became THE major trading good. A big loaf of bread would be enough for you to buy an entire set of china or a nice pearl necklace.
Note that in the Russian Civil War period, a gold rouble would trade on the black market for a whole pile of the paper Commie roubles - or a sack of potatoes.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 01, 2008, 09:59:46 AM
Quote
Even if they didn't, who would want a useless, shiny bauble?
You'd be surprised.
Gold was VERY useful during the Russian Civil War and the WWII-era upheavals in Europe.
Am I mistaken?
I am referring to the time-period up to 1920, where it was uncertain as to who would end up in charge. People would use gold and diamonds to buy train passage, bribe officials, and so forth. People would keep gold in storage as the emergency currency.
Post 1920 or so, when it became clear the Soviets were in charge, due to gold becoming a liability - and due to War Communism, which resulted in terrible famines, people indeed started trading gold for food.
As a matter of fact, this returned during the Leningrade Blockade, where bread became THE major trading good. A big loaf of bread would be enough for you to buy an entire set of china or a nice pearl necklace.
No thanks. I'll stick with utility goods for when things get "that bad".
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:05:20 AM
Quote
Sometimes it's valuable, but sometimes it isn't.
That's true with all stuff.
Obviously, during a famine your gold is going to buy you less bread than it would today.
And obviously it's going to be a liability when the government bans gold.
How is the same thing not true about your cans of .22LR?
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 10:07:29 AM
Quote
Sometimes it's valuable, but sometimes it isn't.
That's true with all stuff.
Obviously, during a famine your gold is going to buy you less bread than it would today.
And obviously it's going to be a liability when the government bans gold.
How is the same thing not true about your cans of .22LR?
Because that can kill dangerous disease-carrying rodents, or get you small game to eat. You might be able to hit it with a gold brick, but you have to get close first.
Post by: roo_ster on October 01, 2008, 10:08:53 AM
Quote
Sometimes it's valuable, but sometimes it isn't.
That's true with all stuff.
Obviously, during a famine your gold is going to buy you less bread than it would today.
And obviously it's going to be a liability when the government bans gold.
How is the same thing not true about your cans of .22LR?
[tongue_in_cheek]Diversification. An ammo can of .22LR contains lead, brass, powder, and steel. And every financial planner I know says diversification reduces risk.[/tongue_in_cheek]
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:09:43 AM
Quote
Sometimes it's valuable, but sometimes it isn't.
That's true with all stuff.
Obviously, during a famine your gold is going to buy you less bread than it would today.
And obviously it's going to be a liability when the government bans gold.
How is the same thing not true about your cans of .22LR?
Because that can kill dangerous disease-carrying rodents, or get you small game to eat. You might be able to hit it with a gold brick, but you have to get close first.
I live in an urban area. There's no small game outside rats and pigeons. And killing them is illegal.
Post by: Balog on October 01, 2008, 10:10:48 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:17:09 AM
Post by: freedom lover on October 01, 2008, 10:21:41 AM
Quote
I live in an urban area. There's no small game outside rats and pigeons. And killing them is illegal.
Pigeons supposedly tatse good. A .22 is relatively quiet and easily suppressed. If something really bad goes down there will be no governmet to stop you.
In any case, you're in Israel. You can allways use it to take quiet headshots if Jihadis spot you.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:24:09 AM
Quote
I live in an urban area. There's no small game outside rats and pigeons. And killing them is illegal.
Pigeons supposedly tatse good. A .22 is relatively quiet and easily suppressed. If something really bad goes down there will be no governmet to stop you.
Well yes. At any rate, though .22LR (and all rifles) are virtually illegal here, I assume in a US urban area there are still problems with legally firing them off.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 10:25:41 AM
The idea some Americans seem to have that everybody should have a .22LR is utterly beyond me no matter how many times I read the arguments for it.
Because you can hold a box containing 500 rounds of ammo for it in one hand, and only pay $15 for that box.
You can have a LOT of .22 around. It's an extremely useful caliber.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:29:51 AM
The idea some Americans seem to have that everybody should have a .22LR is utterly beyond me no matter how many times I read the arguments for it.
Because you can hold a box containing 500 rounds of ammo for it in one hand, and only pay $15 for that box.
You can have a LOT of .22 around. It's an extremely useful caliber.
Don't forget you also need to own a rifle for it.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 10:32:23 AM
The idea some Americans seem to have that everybody should have a .22LR is utterly beyond me no matter how many times I read the arguments for it.
Because you can hold a box containing 500 rounds of ammo for it in one hand, and only pay $15 for that box.
You can have a LOT of .22 around. It's an extremely useful caliber.
Don't forget you also need to own a rifle for it.
For many Americans, they get that first .22 rifle as soon as their age reaches the double digits. They're also among the cheapest of rifles to purchase, even good-quality semiautomatics.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:34:07 AM
The idea some Americans seem to have that everybody should have a .22LR is utterly beyond me no matter how many times I read the arguments for it.
Because you can hold a box containing 500 rounds of ammo for it in one hand, and only pay $15 for that box.
You can have a LOT of .22 around. It's an extremely useful caliber.
Don't forget you also need to own a rifle for it.
For many Americans, they get that first .22 rifle as soon as their age reaches the double digits. They're also among the cheapest of rifles to purchase, even good-quality semiautomatics.
I am aware of it.
But this doesn't seem to be the first rifle for me to buy when I will [and by God, I will] become a citizen.
Post by: freedom lover on October 01, 2008, 10:35:06 AM
Quote
Don't forget you also need to own a rifle for it.
Or a little pistol. Besides, I'd be surprised if you can't get something like a P22 so you can "practice using my main ccw for less cost while protecting our citizens from terrorists through my legal carrying"
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 10:35:17 AM
And that's affordable with .22. It's why everyone is after conversion kits for other guns.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:38:12 AM
I don't see why not. The way you get good with a rifle is to shoot a rifle. A lot. A whole lot.
And that's affordable with .22. It's why everyone is after conversion kits for other guns.
And that's affordable with .22. It's why everyone is after conversion kits for other guns.
The rule seems to be 'practice with what you intend to use in self-defense', or at least from what I read.
So the notion should be to buy the guns you intend to use in self-defense first (assuming you're an adult), and then buy additional guns as per your personal needs and desires.
Post by: longeyes on October 01, 2008, 10:38:52 AM
FerFAL, who lives down in Buenos Aires and writes a survivalist blog for urbanites, recommends gold and silver jewelry for barter, small stuff, not the really expensive kind.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:42:33 AM
Quote
FerFAL, who lives down in Buenos Aires and writes a survivalist blog for urbanites, recommends gold and silver jewelry for barter, small stuff, not the really expensive kind.
Word. This is exactly the use I envision for gold.
Post by: freedom lover on October 01, 2008, 10:43:02 AM
Quote
The rule seems to be 'practice with what you intend to use in self-defense', or at least from what I read.
That may be the case, but using something like a 10/22 can get you used to the manual of arms for something like an AK or M1 carbine.
Edit: It might also help you with your point shooting.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 10:43:26 AM
I don't see why not. The way you get good with a rifle is to shoot a rifle. A lot. A whole lot.
And that's affordable with .22. It's why everyone is after conversion kits for other guns.
And that's affordable with .22. It's why everyone is after conversion kits for other guns.
The rule seems to be 'practice with what you intend to use in self-defense', or at least from what I read.
So the notion should be to buy the guns you intend to use in self-defense first (assuming you're an adult), and then buy additional guns as per your personal needs and desires.
Can't determine what is best for you to use in self-defense unless you try a lot of guns first. I know of people who have gone and spent a lot of money on a gun they decided was best, only to find out that it was too much recoil/too heavy/wrong in their hand/etc for them.
I didn't buy a P220 until I'd tried one at a range and kept nailing the center ring at 15 yards, whereas I was all over the place with a Glock. And I'd at least picked up a P7 before ordering one, and found that it fit my hand like a glove and pointed as if I was pointing my finger. For someone else, it might not do that for them.
And again, the .22 lets you practice hitting what you are aiming at in general. .22 kits have become immensely popular here for 1911s, Beretta 92's, and now for the SIG P226 and P220, letting people practice all day with their carry gun without going broke.
As for gold and silver trinkets as trade goods, if someone offered me that, I'd assume it was fake.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:45:39 AM
Quote
Can't determine what is best for you to use in self-defense unless you try a lot of guns first.
There are ranges that rent firearms for you to shoot there, are there not?
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 10:46:30 AM
Quote
Can't determine what is best for you to use in self-defense unless you try a lot of guns first.
There are ranges that rent firearms for you to shoot there, are there not?
Yes.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 10:49:29 AM
Quote
Can't determine what is best for you to use in self-defense unless you try a lot of guns first.
There are ranges that rent firearms for you to shoot there, are there not?
Yes.
Then my plan is solid. Six or seven years from now, if you see a palefaced nerd with huge glasses at a range near you, it may be me.
(Though I'm fairly set on my choice of rifle).
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 01, 2008, 10:50:16 AM
(Though I'm fairly set on my choice of rifle).
What kind of rifle would that be?
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 11:08:39 AM
(Though I'm fairly set on my choice of rifle).
What kind of rifle would that be?Something on the AR-15 platform - I'm used to these from the Army, shoot fairly well with them, and did an armorer's course there, so I literally know every little nook and cranny on it, or at least used to (we spent two weeks on the course doing nothing but disassembling the M16A1 into its 90+ constituent parts).
Post by: Manedwolf on October 01, 2008, 11:09:49 AM
(Though I'm fairly set on my choice of rifle).
What kind of rifle would that be?Something on the AR-15 platform - I'm used to these from the Army, shoot fairly well with them, and did an armorer's course there, so I literally know every little nook and cranny on it, or at least used to (we spent two weeks on the course doing nothing but disassembling the M16A1 into its 90+ constituent parts).
Eh.
Everyone has their own taste.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 01, 2008, 11:16:06 AM
Post by: Bigjake on October 01, 2008, 01:30:05 PM
The idea some Americans seem to have that everybody should have a .22LR is utterly beyond me no matter how many times I read the arguments for it.
Maybe once you become an American you'll figure it out
Anyway, a .22 doesn't fall on to the list a weapon, it's more of a staple, like flour or frozen meat. Every house SHOULD have at least one, and a few bricks of ammo to practice with.
That, and they're just darned good fun!
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 01, 2008, 05:37:31 PM
The AR platform gets lots of crap on the intarwebs, but you cold do a lot worse than that.
Hey, unlike most people on this forum, I have experience actually carrying a full-sized rifle in public transport.
It's not that bad.
Post by: Regolith on October 01, 2008, 05:49:51 PM
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Can't determine what is best for you to use in self-defense unless you try a lot of guns first.
There are ranges that rent firearms for you to shoot there, are there not?
Not all of them. Usually, its only when a gun store has an attached shooting range. Not all ranges have gun stores, and vice versa.
Out where I'm at, the ranges and the gun stores are usually not located within a few miles of each other, let alone being in the same building. The ranges are usually a couple (or more) miles out of town, and the gun store (if they're affiliated with the range) just sells memberships. So none of them rent guns, because they can't supervise you easily.
On the plus side, the ranges usually feature a full sized 300+ yard rifle range.
Post by: longeyes on October 01, 2008, 08:37:00 PM
In "gun years" that is a long, long time the way I see the scenario.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 01, 2008, 09:03:39 PM
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Hey, unlike most people on this forum, I have experience actually carrying a full-sized rifle in public transport.
It's not that bad.
It's not that bad.
Ok, I'll bite.
When I was a younger fellow in the mid 1970s, my sister and I carried our rifles on the school bus to school every Thursday.
We shot NRA-sponsored Junior Smallbore matches after classes in the school's indoor range. I had (still have) a Remington 521T, and my sister had (still has) her Winchester Model 52C.
So, watch that "Unlike Most People" thingie...
Post by: Regolith on October 01, 2008, 09:20:50 PM
Post by: 280plus on October 02, 2008, 02:16:44 AM
Post by: roo_ster on October 02, 2008, 04:47:59 AM
The AR platform gets lots of crap on the intarwebs, but you cold do a lot worse than that.
Hey, unlike most people on this forum, I have experience actually carrying a full-sized rifle in public transport.
It's not that bad.
I toted my M4A1 on a commercial chartered airliner. Placed it in overhead storage for the ride.
G98's is still the awesomest anecdote, however.
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 02, 2008, 05:00:36 AM
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So, watch that "Unlike Most People" thingie...
Toting an M16A1 on a public bus is a bit different.
You get used to the weight to the point you don't notice it any more - but length, now that's a problem.
In the Army, some people call it the "sorry gun", because of the manner you need to express yourself while carrying it on buses - "Oh, I'm sorry, I bumped into you with the stock, I'm sorry, ma'am, I didn't mean to jab the barrel into your forehead..."
That, and the foregrips tending to fall off on old ones.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 05:05:05 AM
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So, watch that "Unlike Most People" thingie...
Toting an M16A1 on a public bus is a bit different.
You get used to the weight to the point you don't notice it any more - but length, now that's a problem.
In the Army, some people call it the "sorry gun", because of the manner you need to express yourself while carrying it on buses - "Oh, I'm sorry, I bumped into you with the stock, I'm sorry, ma'am, I didn't mean to jab the barrel into your forehead..."
That, and the foregrips tending to fall off on old ones.
That would be one of the reasons I like the Daewoo I got.
Unfolded, it's as long as an M16A2, but a bit lighter.
Fold up the stock, and you can carry it on your back without bumping stuff. The ends no longer extend past your shoulder and hip if it's on your back like that.
I still wonder how many people got REALLY bashed by Garands on buses in the Pacific and stuff during WWII...
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 02, 2008, 05:11:21 AM
Post by: ctdonath on October 02, 2008, 06:07:33 AM
Gold/silver will be useful in trading with people who HAVE stuff and are not in dire situations, people who know the value of their goods and are willing/able to take the time to evaluate whether something is silver or chrome, whether that Silver Eagle is worth a tank of gas or is just silver-plated plastic.
People keep tossing around "what can be traded" it seems without really considering WHO they're trading with and WHY. The guy selling gas or cigs during SHTF knows that he can get several times what he paid for it - and knows that you'll need it bad enough to undervalue your gold/silver in the trade. People will be trading their furs and jewels for a meal, knowing it's worthless to them if they don't make it past next week.
Methinks the best value of precious metals in SHTF is to carry that value over to the other side of the crisis. During the crisis, you'll want to trade stuff that has skyrocketed in value - which gold won't.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 06:10:55 AM
Back on track...
Gold/silver will be useful in trading with people who HAVE stuff and are not in dire situations, people who know the value of their goods and are willing/able to take the time to evaluate whether something is silver or chrome, whether that Silver Eagle is worth a tank of gas or is just silver-plated plastic.
People keep tossing around "what can be traded" it seems without really considering WHO they're trading with and WHY. The guy selling gas or cigs during SHTF knows that he can get several times what he paid for it - and knows that you'll need it bad enough to undervalue your gold/silver in the trade. People will be trading their furs and jewels for a meal, knowing it's worthless to them if they don't make it past next week.
Methinks the best value of precious metals in SHTF is to carry that value over to the other side of the crisis. During the crisis, you'll want to trade stuff that has skyrocketed in value - which gold won't.
Gold/silver will be useful in trading with people who HAVE stuff and are not in dire situations, people who know the value of their goods and are willing/able to take the time to evaluate whether something is silver or chrome, whether that Silver Eagle is worth a tank of gas or is just silver-plated plastic.
People keep tossing around "what can be traded" it seems without really considering WHO they're trading with and WHY. The guy selling gas or cigs during SHTF knows that he can get several times what he paid for it - and knows that you'll need it bad enough to undervalue your gold/silver in the trade. People will be trading their furs and jewels for a meal, knowing it's worthless to them if they don't make it past next week.
Methinks the best value of precious metals in SHTF is to carry that value over to the other side of the crisis. During the crisis, you'll want to trade stuff that has skyrocketed in value - which gold won't.
I suggest you real Alas, Babylon.
At one point, there a stupid woman who has traded food for a living room full of TVs and other junk, because she thinks she'll "be rich when everything gets back to normal".
But then she doesn't have any food...
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 02, 2008, 06:15:36 AM
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At one point, there a stupid woman who has traded food for a living room full of TVs and other junk, because she thinks she'll "be rich when everything gets back to normal".
There were people who did that during the Blockade, FWIW.
Frankly, if I'm starving, I'd rather have a chunk of gold that may buy me a loaf of bread, than a pile of green paper that used to be worth as much as the gold.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on October 02, 2008, 06:22:32 AM
EDIT: Beat.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 06:23:35 AM
I wonder how many fiat dollars she could trade for T.V.'s and other junk, when the SHTF.
Is "fiat" the favorite word of Paulians? Just asking.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on October 02, 2008, 06:25:39 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on October 02, 2008, 06:27:05 AM
I wonder how many fiat dollars she could trade for T.V.'s and other junk, when the SHTF.
Is "fiat" the favorite word of Paulians? Just asking.
Actually, that's the favorite word of economists.
Post by: Scout26 on October 02, 2008, 08:15:52 AM
I suggest you real Alas, Babylon.
I remember reading that in back in High School. Now, I'll have to go back and re-read it if the library has it. Very interesting book, IIRC. Made me start thinking about "What it the SHTF ??"
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 02, 2008, 08:44:42 AM
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At one point, there a stupid woman who has traded food for a living room full of TVs and other junk, because she thinks she'll "be rich when everything gets back to normal".
There were people who did that during the Blockade, FWIW.
Frankly, if I'm starving, I'd rather have a chunk of gold that may buy me a loaf of bread, than a pile of green paper that used to be worth as much as the gold.
If things ever deteriorate to the point where those lumps of gold only buy a loaf of bread, then you're screwed. Your entire savings at that point is only worth a week of food, less if you have a family to feed.
For the price of a dozen gold coins, you could buy a couple firearms and a few cases of ammo, a pile of sturdy warm clothing, a year's worth of food, garden tools and seeds, a gas generator, a well with a hand powered pump, LASIK surgery so that you can see clearly, EMT training and a stockpile of medical supplies, and an old 4x4. Or, depending on where you live, for the cost of a dozen gold coins you could buy a few acres of land.
So, which seems like a better deal for your SHTF-prep dollars?
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 08:49:39 AM
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(BBC) A rare hoard of Roman gold coins dating back 1,800 years have been unveiled after being unearthed in the City of London.
The 43 22-carat gold coins - in mint condition - range from the reign of the Roman Emperor Nero in about AD 65 to the reign of the Roman Emperor Aurelius in AD 174.
Archaeologist Joe Severn discovered the hoard inside a leather bag during an archaeological dig in the heart of the City.
Building work at the site in Plantation Place, due to be developed into an office block, revealed a Roman villa and the coins were found under its floor.
The 43 22-carat gold coins - in mint condition - range from the reign of the Roman Emperor Nero in about AD 65 to the reign of the Roman Emperor Aurelius in AD 174.
Archaeologist Joe Severn discovered the hoard inside a leather bag during an archaeological dig in the heart of the City.
Building work at the site in Plantation Place, due to be developed into an office block, revealed a Roman villa and the coins were found under its floor.
They've found a number of these. It didn't help the villa owners when the Empire fell, because they were still there...
Post by: Balog on October 02, 2008, 08:59:08 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 09:01:39 AM
A few small, relatively inexpensive bits of precious metal (pre-65 dimes for example) would be a good thing to have around. But it's hardly a priority.
I can guarantee you that to 99% of the population, it would be a dime. People don't know what pre-65 is, they don't know about silver content, and they won't believe you if you tell them that. The only people you can sell those to, now, is coin dealers. I do keep them and quarters when I get them in change, of course. But most people have no idea what 90% silver coins are, or even that the content ever changed.
Hell, I have trouble getting clerks to take golden dollars.
Post by: Boomhauer on October 02, 2008, 09:12:10 AM
I suggest you real Alas, Babylon.
I remember reading that in back in High School. Now, I'll have to go back and re-read it if the library has it. Very interesting book, IIRC. Made me start thinking about "What it the SHTF ??"
You should also track down a copy of "Lights Out" by Halffast. Free in a PDF forum. Look on THR or the Frugal Squirrels forum.
A little over 500 pages of SHTF goodness, but with realism rather than fantasy (i.e., the protagonists don't have bunkers full of food and ammo...basically, they are not very well prepared, but make do with what they have and what they can trade for).
But, however, trading using silver and gold does figure somewhat prominently, which I kind of have a hard time believing...
But still a great read.
Post by: freakazoid on October 02, 2008, 09:30:12 AM
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Ok, I'll bite.
When I was a younger fellow in the mid 1970s, my sister and I carried our rifles on the school bus to school every Thursday.
When I was a younger fellow in the mid 1970s, my sister and I carried our rifles on the school bus to school every Thursday.
Those must of been the days,
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suggest you real Alas, Babylon.
Oh my goodness, such a good book,
Although I do prefer Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse, good read and full of usefull info.Quote
Frankly, if I'm starving, I'd rather have a chunk of gold that may buy me a loaf of bread, than a pile of green paper that used to be worth as much as the gold.
I'de rather just have more stored food than spend a lot of money on something that more than likely won't get me very much when the SHTF. I imagine that things that have actual use will be more value than gold, which is no more useful than a paperweight. I imagine that ammunition would be much much more valuable than gold. I'de suggest not only stocking up on the kind of ammo for your gun but also have a large assortment of other kind that can be used for trade.
Post by: ctdonath on October 02, 2008, 11:19:52 AM
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I'd rather have a chunk of gold that may buy me a loaf of bread
I'll be happy to sell you a loaf of bread for a chunk of gold.That's exactly how gold/etc. will be useful during SHTF: bought cheap from those desperate for mundane staples. Pre-SHTF, I can stash a sack of wheat and packets of yeast for a whole lot less than the price of the gold you're stashing; I look forward to the trade. The crisis will pass; question is who will survive and have the gold at the end?
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pre-65 dimes
It's still a dime. Most people will treat it as a dime, and the government (which most likely will still be functioning and collecting taxes) will treat it as a dime. Most of those who know "it's silver" won't know how much it's worth. Those who know how much a silver dime is worth won't want to deal in fiddling small change. The demand for its silver as silver will be extremely low as people are more interested in staples than luxuries. Currently, the intrinsic value of a pre-'65 dime is $0.80 (how many here knew that? fess up); don't think I'd even give you a loaf of bread for it.As noted above, people don't even know what _current_ currency is, looking at you funny if you hand 'em a 2008 dollar coin, and calling the cops over $2 bills - and that's legal tender.
Post by: Tuco on October 02, 2008, 12:27:13 PM
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pre-65 dimes
Currently, the intrinsic value of a pre-'65 dime is $0.80[/url] (how many here knew that? fess up); 0.79 as of close today. Your friendly neighborhood coin dealer may pay you 6.5x face value for your silver coins tomorrow.
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As noted above, people don't even know what _current_ currency is, looking at you funny if you hand 'em a 2008 dollar coin, and calling the cops over $2 bills - and that's legal tender.
I have been known to get a bundle of $2 at the bank on payday as walking around money. I love to keep those circulating. The tellers at my bank gang up and ASK ME if I want them.
Sacajaweas are another favorite, but heavy.
I've been biting my lip on this thread, only because I've been a semi-willing PM investor as a result of a family tragedy this July.
I suppose Precious Metals can be a valuable part of a well-diversified portfolio, but I'd be a fool to cash out stocks right now.
Like my paternal grandfather said JP Getty said, "Buy when everyone is selling and sell when everyone is buying."
Post by: KD5NRH on May 30, 2011, 06:00:36 AM
Currently, the intrinsic value of a pre-'65 dime is $0.80[/url] (how many here knew that? fess up); don't think I'd even give you a loaf of bread for it.
Amusingly, I just found another pre-65 dime a couple weeks ago by way of having the soda machine at work refuse it. When I checked then, melt value was $2.42. Now it's $2.74. Not a bad rate of return. Wish I'd bought up a bunch of them back when this thread was active before.