Post by: Ben on October 01, 2008, 05:45:30 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081002/ap_on_re_us/fossett_search_18
Pilot's license found in Calif. may be Fossett's
By TRACIE CONE and JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writers1 hour, 38 minutes ago
A hiker in a rugged part of eastern California found a pilot's license and other items that appear to belong to Steve Fossett, the adventurer who vanished on a solo flight in a borrowed plane more than a year ago, authorities said Wednesday.
The information on the pilot license including Fossett's name, address, date of birth and certificate number was sent in a photograph to the Federal Aviation Administration, and all matched the agency's records, spokesman Ian Gregor said.
"We're trying to determine the authenticity of the document," Gregor said.
The hiker, Preston Morrow, said he found an FAA identity card, a pilot's license, a third ID and $1,005 in cash tangled in a bush off a trail just west of the town of Mammoth Lakes on Monday. He said he turned the items over to local police Wednesday after unsuccessful attempts to contact Fossett's family.
Mammoth Lakes police investigator Crystal Schafer confirmed that the department had the items, including the ones bearing Fossett's name.
Search teams led by the Madera County Sheriff's Department have been sent to the scene, and an air and ground effort was expected to be under way soon, said sheriff's spokeswoman Erica Stuart.
Morrow said he found no sign of a plane or any human remains.
Fossett, whose exploits included circumnavigating the globe in a balloon, disappeared Sept. 3, 2007, after taking off in a single-engine plane borrowed from a Nevada ranch owned by hotel magnate Barron Hilton. A judge declared Fossett legally dead in February following a search for the famed aviator that covered 20,000 square miles.
Fossett's widow, Peggy, said in a statement Wednesday that she was aware of Morrow's discovery and that authorities were going to the site.
"I am hopeful that this search will locate the crash site and my husband's remains," she said. "I am grateful to all of those involved in this effort."
Aviators had flown over Mammoth Lakes, about 90 miles south of the ranch, in the search for Fossett, but it had not been considered a likely place to find the plane. The most intense searching was concentrated to the north of the town, given what searchers knew about sightings of Fossett's plane, his plans for when he had intended to return and the amount of fuel he had in the plane.
Morrow, 43, who works in a Mammoth Lakes sporting goods store, said he initially didn't know who Fossett was. It wasn't until he showed the items to co-workers Tuesday that one of them recognized Fossett's name.
"It was just weird to find that much money in the backcountry, and the IDs," he said. "My immediate thought was it was a hiker or backpacker's stuff, and a bear got to the stuff and took it away to look for food or whatever."
Morrow said he returned to the scene with his wife and three friends Tuesday to search further and did not find any airplane wreckage or human remains. They did find a black Nautica pullover fleece, size XL, in the same area, but he said he wasn't sure if the items were related.
Morrow said he consulted local attorney David Baumwohl, and they initially tried to contact the Fossett family but were unable to get through to their lawyers.
"We figured if it was us, we'd want to know first. We wouldn't want to learn from the news," Baumwohl said.
Baumwohl and Morrow tried to contact the law firm that handled the death declaration. When they weren't successful, they decided to turn everything over to the police, the attorney said.
Mammoth Lakes is at an elevation of more than 7,800 feet on the eastern flank of the Sierra Nevada, where peaks top 13,000 feet. This year's biggest search for Fossett focused on Nevada's Wassuk Range, more than 50 miles north of Mammoth Lakes. That search ended last month.
The California Civil Air Patrol and private planes from Hilton's ranch previously had flown over the area, but it was "extremely rough country," said Joe Sanford, undersheriff in Lyon County, Nev., which was involved in the initial search.
One of Fossett's friends reacted to Wednesday's news with cautious optimism.
If the belongings turn out to be authentic, then that could help narrow the search area for possible wreckage, said Ray Arvidson, a scientist at Washington University who worked on Fossett's past balloon flights.
"It would be nice to get closure," Arvidson said.
Fossett made a fortune trading futures and options on Chicago markets. He gained worldwide fame for more than 100 attempts and successes in setting records in high-tech balloons, gliders, jets and boats. In 2002, he became the first person to circle the world solo in a balloon. He was inducted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame in July 2007.
He also swam the English Channel, completed an Ironman Triathlon, competed in the Iditarod dog sled race and climbed some of the world's best-known peaks, including the Matterhorn in Switzerland and Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania.
Post by: MillCreek on October 01, 2008, 06:23:19 PM
Post by: Antibubba on October 01, 2008, 06:29:22 PM
Post by: Devonai on October 01, 2008, 07:28:32 PM
Post by: freakazoid on October 01, 2008, 08:49:34 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 01, 2008, 08:58:31 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 01, 2008, 08:59:09 PM
CNN is reporting that wreckage now appears visible from the air.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/02/fossett.search.ap/index.html
Quote
MAMMOTH FALLS, California (AP) -- Authorities say search teams looking for any sign of wealthy adventurer Steve Fossett, who vanished on a solo flight more than a year ago, have spotted what appears to be wreckage from the air.
Steve Fossett, seen here with his wife, Peggy, disappeared after a solo flight in 2007.
Madera County, California, sheriff's spokeswoman Erica Stuart would not reveal the exact location of the reported aerial sighting and declined to provide any more information. Authorities had said searchers were combing a 10-mile radius around the place where a hiker had found what appeared to be items belonging to Fossett this week.
She says a ground search team will follow up with the possible wreckage site Thursday morning.
Hiker Preston Morrow says he found three identification cards with Fossett's name and about $1000 in cash Monday tangled in a bush just west of the town of Mammoth Lakes. He turned them into police Wednesday. Video Watch police chief describe hiker's discovery ?
Federal Aviation Administration officials say they are trying to determine whether the ID cards are authentic.
Steve Fossett, seen here with his wife, Peggy, disappeared after a solo flight in 2007.
Madera County, California, sheriff's spokeswoman Erica Stuart would not reveal the exact location of the reported aerial sighting and declined to provide any more information. Authorities had said searchers were combing a 10-mile radius around the place where a hiker had found what appeared to be items belonging to Fossett this week.
She says a ground search team will follow up with the possible wreckage site Thursday morning.
Hiker Preston Morrow says he found three identification cards with Fossett's name and about $1000 in cash Monday tangled in a bush just west of the town of Mammoth Lakes. He turned them into police Wednesday. Video Watch police chief describe hiker's discovery ?
Federal Aviation Administration officials say they are trying to determine whether the ID cards are authentic.
Post by: yesitsloaded on October 01, 2008, 09:08:44 PM
I thought they searched high and low. Explain.
Post by: Regolith on October 01, 2008, 09:11:44 PM
So it is looking like they somehow missed it I thought they searched high and low. Explain.
I thought they searched high and low. Explain. Looks like that site was somewhat outside of their search area, and hence wasn't searched as carefully.
From the article:
Quote
Aviators had flown over Mammoth Lakes, about 90 miles south of the ranch, in the search for Fossett, but it had not been considered a likely place to find the plane. The most intense searching was concentrated to the north of the town, given what searchers knew about sightings of Fossett's plane, his plans for when he had intended to return and the amount of fuel he had in the plane.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 01, 2008, 09:29:53 PM
Quote
Explain.
No.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 01, 2008, 09:32:08 PM
Mammoth Lakes probably wasn't in that corridor, and with limited time, personnel, and funds, they didn't expand the search past that.
"Never attribute to malice..."
Post by: yesitsloaded on October 01, 2008, 09:33:34 PM
Post by: ArfinGreebly on October 01, 2008, 09:37:47 PM
Which might have been why it was so hard to search the area covered by it.
Sux.
I kinda liked that dude.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 01, 2008, 09:39:43 PM
Truth be known, unless an ELT beacon starts squawking post-crash, there is only so much terrain they search based on what's available for assets and manpower. You start with the flight plan, and work your way outwards. But "outwards" is a finite thing, based on several variables. If there's no flight plan, then you really have your work cut out for you.
He was known to be fond of flying along the Highway 395 corridor, so they focused on that to an extent.
It also appears that's some pretty rugged terrain where they found his ID cards, making searches even more difficult:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/01/MNPT139M9N.DTL
Post by: freakazoid on October 01, 2008, 09:56:34 PM
Post by: yesitsloaded on October 01, 2008, 10:15:12 PM
Post by: Leatherneck on October 02, 2008, 01:49:19 AM
Quote
Will be interesting to hear if they find a body amongst the wreckage.
And REALLY interesting if they don't.TC
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on October 02, 2008, 01:52:34 AM
Post by: 280plus on October 02, 2008, 02:09:43 AM
Post by: Harold Tuttle on October 02, 2008, 03:56:15 AM
Post by: HankB on October 02, 2008, 04:01:41 AM
I would have found the licenses and $5 in cash.
Hmmm . . . maybe there was $10k in the wallet? Wonder what The Enquirer would've paid for the stuff . . . probably more than the cops.
Post by: Fly320s on October 02, 2008, 04:07:20 AM
So the moral of the story is file a flight plan and stick to it?
No. VFR flight plans are voluntary. Carry a good ELT, and prepare to get yourself out of your own mess. Even then, you may be there for a day or two.
A VFR flight plan provides little protection in the event of a crash. An aircraft on an active VFR flight plane isn't considered missing until 4 or more hours after the planned ETA. Then a search is started which will consist of a phone call to the destination airport, if possible, to determine if the plane is actually there. Slowly, the search will expand. The VFR flight plan may help, but not until many hours after the crash.
If a pilot wants to be watched-over, then flying IFR is the way to go. Under IFR, a plane is constantly tracked and controlled.
I don't know about any other pilots, but I'd rather fly VFR so I don't have to deal with all of the IFR and ATC rules. Much less hassle.
Post by: MillCreek on October 02, 2008, 04:34:55 AM
Post by: Fly320s on October 02, 2008, 04:56:58 AM
Sheesh... the guy can fly everything. Planes, copters, gliders, balloons. The only things missing are blimps and the new powered-lift categories.
Post by: Jamisjockey on October 02, 2008, 05:01:43 AM
So the moral of the story is file a flight plan and stick to it?
Yes. Even if its a VFR flight plan. Make sure someone knows where to look for your corpse. I disagree with Fly320's a bit here. Because the FAA didn't even have a vauge clue about Fossetts plans, they didn't really know where to look.
Post by: grampster on October 02, 2008, 05:06:23 AM
in bear scat.
Post by: yesitsloaded on October 02, 2008, 05:44:43 AM
Quote
Will be interesting to hear if they find a body amongst the wreckage.
And REALLY interesting if they don't.
They didn't find a body.
And REALLY interesting if they don't.
Post by: Fly320s on October 02, 2008, 05:54:48 AM
So the moral of the story is file a flight plan and stick to it?
Yes. Even if its a VFR flight plan. Make sure someone knows where to look for your corpse. I disagree with Fly320's a bit here. Because the FAA didn't even have a vauge clue about Fossetts plans, they didn't really know where to look.
Jamis is correct on that point. If you want the opportunity for someone to search for you, then yes, by all means file and fly a VFR flight plan. Just be aware that a VFR flight plan is not a safety net. The search response isn't quick enough or accurate enough to help in a dire situation.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 02, 2008, 06:27:03 AM
So the moral of the story is file a flight plan and stick to it?
No. VFR flight plans are voluntary. Carry a good ELT, and prepare to get yourself out of your own mess. Even then, you may be there for a day or two.
A VFR flight plan provides little protection in the event of a crash. An aircraft on an active VFR flight plane isn't considered missing until 4 or more hours after the planned ETA. Then a search is started which will consist of a phone call to the destination airport, if possible, to determine if the plane is actually there. Slowly, the search will expand. The VFR flight plan may help, but not until many hours after the crash.
If a pilot wants to be watched-over, then flying IFR is the way to go. Under IFR, a plane is constantly tracked and controlled.
I don't know about any other pilots, but I'd rather fly VFR so I don't have to deal with all of the IFR and ATC rules. Much less hassle.
While all of the above is true, I think it's a truism that if you are an internationally famous multi-millionaire aviator the search will be a tad more thorough than if your name is John Doe and you're flying a 50-year old Piper Cub.
Post by: Boomhauer on October 02, 2008, 07:45:43 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081002/ap_on_re_us/fossett_search
Quote
Sheriff: Search teams find Fossett wreckage
By TRACIE CONE and JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writers 2 minutes ago
MAMMOTH LAKES, Calif. - Searchers found the wreckage of Steve Fossett's airplane in California's rugged Sierra Nevada just over a year after the millionaire adventurer vanished on a solo flight, and the craft appears to have hit the mountainside head-on, authorities said Thursday.
Crews conducting an aerial search late Wednesday spotted what turned out to be the wreckage in the Inyo National Forest near the town of Mammoth Lakes, Sheriff John Anderson said. They confirmed around 11 p.m. that the tail number found matched Fossett's single-engine Bellanca plane, he said.
Anderson said no human remains were found in the wreckage.
"It's quite often if you don't find remains within a few days, because of animals, you'll find nothing at all," Anderson said.
Teams led by the sheriff's department would continue the search for remains Thursday, while the National Transportation Safety Board was en route to probe the cause of the crash, he said.
Most of the plane's fuselage disintegrated on impact, and the engine was found several hundred feet away, Anderson said.
Searchers began combing the rugged terrain on Wednesday after a hiker found identification documents belonging to Fossett earlier in the week. The wreckage was found about a quarter-mile from where hiker Preston Morrow made his discovery Monday.
The IDs provided the first possible clue about Fossett's whereabouts since he disappeared Sept. 3, 2007, after taking off from a Nevada ranch owned by hotel magnate Barron Hilton.
"I remember the day he crashed, there were large thunderheads over the peaks around us," Mono County Undersheriff Ralph Obenberger said, gesturing to the mountains flanking Mammoth Lakes.
Aviators had previously flown over Mammoth Lakes, about 90 miles south of the ranch, in the search for Fossett, but it had not been considered a likely place to find the plane.
The most intense searching was concentrated north of the town, given what searchers knew about sightings of Fossett's plane, his plans for when he had intended to return and the amount of fuel he had in the plane.
A judge declared Fossett legally dead in February following a search for the famed aviator that covered 20,000 square miles.
By TRACIE CONE and JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writers 2 minutes ago
MAMMOTH LAKES, Calif. - Searchers found the wreckage of Steve Fossett's airplane in California's rugged Sierra Nevada just over a year after the millionaire adventurer vanished on a solo flight, and the craft appears to have hit the mountainside head-on, authorities said Thursday.
Crews conducting an aerial search late Wednesday spotted what turned out to be the wreckage in the Inyo National Forest near the town of Mammoth Lakes, Sheriff John Anderson said. They confirmed around 11 p.m. that the tail number found matched Fossett's single-engine Bellanca plane, he said.
Anderson said no human remains were found in the wreckage.
"It's quite often if you don't find remains within a few days, because of animals, you'll find nothing at all," Anderson said.
Teams led by the sheriff's department would continue the search for remains Thursday, while the National Transportation Safety Board was en route to probe the cause of the crash, he said.
Most of the plane's fuselage disintegrated on impact, and the engine was found several hundred feet away, Anderson said.
Searchers began combing the rugged terrain on Wednesday after a hiker found identification documents belonging to Fossett earlier in the week. The wreckage was found about a quarter-mile from where hiker Preston Morrow made his discovery Monday.
The IDs provided the first possible clue about Fossett's whereabouts since he disappeared Sept. 3, 2007, after taking off from a Nevada ranch owned by hotel magnate Barron Hilton.
"I remember the day he crashed, there were large thunderheads over the peaks around us," Mono County Undersheriff Ralph Obenberger said, gesturing to the mountains flanking Mammoth Lakes.
Aviators had previously flown over Mammoth Lakes, about 90 miles south of the ranch, in the search for Fossett, but it had not been considered a likely place to find the plane.
The most intense searching was concentrated north of the town, given what searchers knew about sightings of Fossett's plane, his plans for when he had intended to return and the amount of fuel he had in the plane.
A judge declared Fossett legally dead in February following a search for the famed aviator that covered 20,000 square miles.
Post by: ctdonath on October 02, 2008, 09:12:50 AM
Post by: Jamisjockey on October 02, 2008, 09:55:51 AM
So the moral of the story is file a flight plan and stick to it?
No. VFR flight plans are voluntary. Carry a good ELT, and prepare to get yourself out of your own mess. Even then, you may be there for a day or two.
A VFR flight plan provides little protection in the event of a crash. An aircraft on an active VFR flight plane isn't considered missing until 4 or more hours after the planned ETA. Then a search is started which will consist of a phone call to the destination airport, if possible, to determine if the plane is actually there. Slowly, the search will expand. The VFR flight plan may help, but not until many hours after the crash.
If a pilot wants to be watched-over, then flying IFR is the way to go. Under IFR, a plane is constantly tracked and controlled.
I don't know about any other pilots, but I'd rather fly VFR so I don't have to deal with all of the IFR and ATC rules. Much less hassle.
While all of the above is true, I think it's a truism that if you are an internationally famous multi-millionaire aviator the search will be a tad more thorough than if your name is John Doe and you're flying a 50-year old Piper Cub.
Not true. It will be televised, and after the government quits your very rich widow might spend some time looking for you...thats the only difference. I've seen some big searches for small aircraft before.
Post by: Leatherneck on October 02, 2008, 12:53:32 PM
TC
Post by: Northwoods on October 02, 2008, 01:55:33 PM
Post by: 280plus on October 03, 2008, 01:35:24 AM
I just liken the flight plan idea to telling someone where you're going and what time you'll be back on a lone foray out into the wilderness.
Post by: Ben on October 03, 2008, 09:30:27 AM
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 03, 2008, 10:05:33 AM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on October 03, 2008, 10:07:33 AM
Post by: Ben on October 03, 2008, 10:13:33 AM
We do seem to have a high proportion of people that do fly, or have flown, whether pilots or crew, work or hobby. I chalk it up to the general personality and demeanor of most of the people here. We all seem to be into some kind of technical occupation / hobby / whatever that also requires a lot of independent thought.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on October 03, 2008, 10:14:44 AM
Post by: seeker_two on October 03, 2008, 10:24:04 AM
Seems like the pilot to non-pilot ratio on this forum is out of whack. Just how many of you people are pilots?
I'm not a pilot; but, based on my limited knowledge, I believe the evidence shows that Steve Fossett died from events related to his plane crashing.....how am I doing so far, dasmi?....
Post by: Firethorn on October 03, 2008, 10:39:29 AM
I saw a news story this morning with a quote along the lines of, "he smacked into a mountain". Sounds like Leatherneck nailed it on the "old, bold pilot". All signs point to "unintentional IFR".
Is it possible that he had a medical condition occur that caused him to go off course and crash? Something like a stroke, or even a heart attack?
Post by: Northwoods on October 03, 2008, 10:46:30 AM
I saw a news story this morning with a quote along the lines of, "he smacked into a mountain". Sounds like Leatherneck nailed it on the "old, bold pilot". All signs point to "unintentional IFR".
Is it possible that he had a medical condition occur that caused him to go off course and crash? Something like a stroke, or even a heart attack?
Sounds like it was most likely a case of CFIT - Flying in a canyon, gets cloudy enough that he can't see (unintentional IFR), forgets the mountains are as close as they are and just turned into the terrain or didn't pull up when reaching the end of the canyon. The other likely possibility was that he got caught in a downdraft and couldn't pull out before being slammed in the mountain side.
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 03, 2008, 10:56:46 AM
Very driven people like him have a tendency to do that when they feel they have completely lost control.
Brad
Post by: Northwoods on October 03, 2008, 11:03:30 AM
There's also the possibility that, being heavily in debt, he figured it as a way out. Stick the nose in the ground at high speed and no one is the wiser. No one can prove a thing, one way or another. An act of final defiance by showing the he is the ultimate determiner of his destiny.
Very driven people like him have a tendency to do that when they feel they have completely lost control.
Brad
He'd made billions. Anyone who can do that once can do it again. He also had enough billionaire friends that he didn't have to do something like suicide to get out of it. If it was a suicide it would really only make sense if he'd found out he was terminally ill and would wind up dying a slow, painful, horrible, undignified death and chose to go out on his own terms instead. Everything though pointed to him still having a lot to live for, a lot more to accomplish. Suicide makes the least sense overall to me of anything that could explain his death.
Very driven people like him have a tendency to do that when they feel they have completely lost control.
Brad
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 03, 2008, 11:09:07 AM
He'd made billions. Anyone who can do that once can do it again.
With a very driven individual it has nothing to do with how much he made, or how much he could make again. It's all about their perceive ability to maintain control of, well, everything. They want the world by the balls and don't care anyone else gives a rip. It's a power thing, pure and simple.
If someone like him felt they no longer had control of their lives they could, very easily in fact, see this as the ultimate way of controlling their fate. Taking their own life, and doing so in a way that left the whole world confused, would be the ultimate power trip. Stupid, yes. But plausible.
Brad
Post by: Jamisjockey on October 03, 2008, 11:11:11 AM
I spent about 14 years as an Air Traffic Controller....before the wife realized her calling as a Sugar Mama
5 years USMC ATC, NYL ATCT (Yuma, Arizona, Air Traffic Control Tower)
-3 months at MCB 29 Palms, Tower
-3 1 month at Laguna AAF, Tower
2 years Federal contract ATC, BRO ATCT (Brownsville, Texas)
1.5 years FAA, BPT ATCT/RAC (Beaumont, TX, Tower and Approach Control)
5.5 years FAA, S56 (Salt Lake City TRACON, UT-Terminal Radar Approach Control)
Post by: gunsmith on October 03, 2008, 12:32:46 PM
I always wanted to be a pilot.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 03, 2008, 01:51:23 PM
I lived in Reno at the time, they were looking "all over" for him and found remains of other really old crash sites (and making some families very happy to solve decades old mysteries)
I always wanted to be a pilot.
I always wanted to be a pilot.
Is there some sort of cause-effect relationship between the two parts of this post? Such as ... you always wanted to be a pilot so people could be out looking for your remains, too?
Post by: Scout26 on October 03, 2008, 05:11:18 PM
I understand he was heavily in debt.
As someone who lives in Chicago that's the first I heard of that. Last I heard was that reason Mrs wanted him declared dead was to free up $$$ to pay for continued searches and to pay for her expenses.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 03, 2008, 05:53:26 PM
Post by: Scout26 on October 03, 2008, 06:18:41 PM
And from the looks of the wreckage, the last thing that went through Steve Fossett's mind was...
The rudder of the plane ??
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 03, 2008, 06:20:25 PM
Post by: seeker_two on October 05, 2008, 11:21:50 PM
Okay, maybe I should've phrased it differently. The last organic thing that went through Steve Fossett's mind was... (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armedpolitesociety.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fwink.gif&hash=1643906fa24ed66de01fb0f1daeeb1992c182794)
The mountain?.... ???
Post by: RocketMan on October 05, 2008, 11:58:43 PM
Okay, maybe I should've phrased it differently. The last organic thing that went through Steve Fossett's mind was...
I don't know for sure, but I'd bet it was furry.
Post by: freakazoid on October 06, 2008, 01:18:33 AM
Quote
The rudder of the plane ??
ROFL :laugh: I almost keeled over from laughter. Took me a while to get it but when it did, :laugh:
Oh man, you guys are to good.
Post by: ctdonath on October 06, 2008, 02:55:48 PM
Quote
I'd bet it was furry.=D =D =D
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on October 06, 2008, 05:31:47 PM
Photos from the search team.
Post by: Fly320s on October 06, 2008, 08:10:05 PM
=|
Post by: Bigjake on October 06, 2008, 08:35:13 PM
Not much left.
=|
been a year, sadly. Past oxidation and bones, I'm suprised theres all that much of anything left.
Post by: ArfinGreebly on October 06, 2008, 11:10:44 PM
If there's not a lot of wreckage in one spot, that only means it's spread over a wide area.
There's no wildlife that eats aluminum, corrosion is pretty much not a factor, and that leaves only the original crash vectors and weather as factors.
It's all there. It's just that "there" may be a whole lot of acres.