Post by: Seymour Skinner on October 05, 2005, 10:04:15 PM
"Where I live, if I can't store the trailer in my garage, I can't have it here (damn HOAs)" -mtnbkr
Everywhere around town, the ONLY "homes" being built are these centrally planned, controlled, so called "planned" (read:communist patterned) communities. Most share a wall with their dumbass neighbor and "yards" are the size of postage stamps. People move in and then complain about the consequences of communist principles. Are americans just easily influenced, or do they want to be "taken care of" SOOO much, that they actually think a "Homeowners Association" will be a luxury, or are men mere lapdogs for their wives, or all of the above? They are always stunned by the lists of restrictions the longer they live there.
When this cancer first appeared around here, most ignored it because only certain vein yuppies and old people wanted anything to do with this tract, er, I mean, trash housing that all looks the same (and you have to get permission to do anything but LOOK at the exterior). Now, like a strain of asian respiratory virus, they're everywhere. What's amazing, is that serious construction problems appear in a significant percentage of these "planned" communities. It's a form of poetic justice to these people for enriching these builders who have simply found another way to dupe Americans into thinking they're getting "luxury" and "convenience" when in fact they're being controlled and managed.
There is no way that americans (who used to value their privacy and liberty) of a few generations ago would have A. put up with this abomination, or B. believed how utterly dependent upon third parties their children would become.
In typical deceptive fashion in the vein of the falsely named "federal reserve," these "communities" always have a so called "homeowner's association." More proof that americans will fall for a feel good title every time. The term homeowner's assoc. is broad enough in meaning to drive an 18 wheeler through that is pulling a ferris wheel. Of course, what that entity actually is, is a contractually created control system, and not at all like the benign sounding "homeowner's assoc." They put the term homeOWNER into it to hide the fact that once has actually signed away, THROUGH CONTRACT any and all actual ownership (assuming we still speak english in this country, since words nowadays tend to have incorrect and rather fluid "meanings" to people).
Just like communism, these "planned communities" were designed for the actual benefit of a very few (in this case the builder who gets to pack people in like sardines while convincing them they are actually living in luxury). Since plank #s 1, 4, and 9 of the communist manifesto have been around for some time, no one can say they weren't warned. Plank #1 is "abolition of private property" (in this case via contract, but the effect is still essentially the same). Plank #4 is "confiscation of property of all emigrants and rebels" (again, in this case, it's through contract, where if you displease the HOA gods, or enough neighbors, you are forced to relocate at great expense. BTW, it's always interesting how communism always retains the use of forced relocation as a tool for compliance). Plank # 9 is "regional planning" (planned developments, which by the way always involve some government manipulation, are very obvious examples of corporate/government regional planning).
Also, just like communism, the masses are duped into accepting planned developments with promises of "predictability" (everyone's lawn WILL be mowed and grounds WILL be kept up to pre decided "community standards"), "consistency" (everything looks the same), and life will generally be easier (because you will be spared the extreme hardship of deciding what to paint your exterior, or having to push a mower).
Who was it that said that Americans would be slowly taught to accept principles of communism, thus negating the need for military conflict with the west?
Post by: Sindawe on October 05, 2005, 10:23:25 PM
HOA members all have equal opportunity here to serve on the Board of Directors (BOD) and/or attend the monthly meetings. I've seen non-BOD members exactly twice in three years of serving on our board. Once for compaince issues, the other to talk about an architectural proposal.
Our HOA DOES provide predictability for the members. Our grass is cut, the landscaping is taking care of, the snow removed and the cable/water bills paid for our the HOA budget from everybodies dues. We have also planned on how to deal with the recuring costs of painting, dealing with drainage problems from the builder and planning to deal with new roofs in 10-15 years with out a special assessment.
Would I buy a detached home on land in an HOA? No, not a chance. There I'd want the option to paint the house black, purple and put up gargyles and flyblown severed cow heads if it turned my crank. But another condo in an HOA I'd have no issues with if I had full access to the covenants and bylaws, which I am entitled to under the law BEFORE buying. If I don't like 'em, I don't have to buy there.
Post by: Seymour Skinner on October 05, 2005, 11:34:44 PM
One of the core issues that you ended up highlighting very well is that under centrally planned communities (be it via communism or contract), your neighbor's problem is YOUR problem and visa versa. This is called INTERDEPENDENCE and is probably the main principle that americans once shunned but have now been conditioned to accept as not only normal, but workable.
Drainage issues that you mentioned are probably the most common builder screw up (it's what you get when you pack a lot of people into areas where 50-100 years ago everyone knew better than to build a residence, let alone dozens). 1/4 mile from me, the defect de jure is major foundation problems, and since everyone is literally part of each other's problems, from wall sharing, they all had to fork over thousands of dollars each to join in a lawsuit against the builder, which appears will just force him to file chapter 11 and stick them with the very costly repairs.
When I hear the old russians long for the days under communism, it's chilling how they sound like this:
Quote
Our HOA DOES provide predictability for the members. Our grass is cut, the landscaping is taking care of, the snow removed...
I have to respectively disagree with the sentiment and facts of this:Quote
Don't like 'em? Don't buy here. There are still many non-HOA homes and communites around.
SURE, there's lots of OLD and/or run down non-HOA homes around, but the NEW stuff that's being built is overwhelmingly centrally planned/controlled (that's actually an understatement in most major cities now). Governments want more property tax payola so they collude with builders who are more than happy to pack people in like sardines, and WHAMO all the land is tied up for this purpose (at least if it's not already slated to be a sales tax generating dynamo of a strip mall!). SURE, one can go out to boo foo egypt to build if one enjoys being light years from a grocery store. Whoops, actually I can't even say that anymore, because a lot of where the whole valley used to go shooting has been developed into the most enormous Stalinist community I've ever seen. This red menace 15 miles or so south of me has it's own golf course by the highway that we take to go shooting. I get a fresh batch of piss 'n vinegar every time I pass it because there is A. not a straight street to be found within commie heaven, B. there's more cul de sacs per square mile than Japan has camcorders, C. the "yards" are pure comedy of stupid irregular shapes, and D. there's this huge marquee at the entrance that I guess is supposed to make the interdependent suckers all feel like kings or something. Gotta love the symbolism over substance that goes on these days.What's really sad, is that when a fresh batch of connected townhomes went in next to my wife's work, I actually felt a tad relieved because literally all over town they've been bulldozing homes like crazy to put in businesses (sales tax bling bling to the city fifedom).
The line "There are still many non-HOA homes and communites around." also reminded me of the current machine gun situation. Yep, there's still many transferrable MGs around, buuuuuut everything NEW that's manufactured is forced to follow a slightly different world order.
Post by: Guest on October 06, 2005, 12:02:40 AM
Are you honestly suggesting that a goverment that prevents the free assembly of people and organizations would be in the interest of freedom?
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 02:55:10 AM
The HOA we lived under in Tn was the organizing force that helped keep Spring Hill from annexing our subdivision in Murray County. Otherwise, we would be paying that city's taxes without getting any benefits such as water and sewer (yup, they wanted our money, but didn't want to offer the benefits of being part of them).
Anyway, in Northern Va, it's nearly impossible to buy a house without an HOA. Even neighborhoods established before HOAs became popular have them now. They annoy the libertarian in me, but as long as they're not forced upon me after I buy a property, I can live with them.
Chris
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 05:11:37 AM
Wow, that makes me vice president of my community's Central Committee, a position I've held for just over a decade now.
It's not as if we don't hold regularl community elections. It's not as if we don't BEG people in the community to become involved.
It's that they're too lazy, too "busy," too stupid, and too too many other things to get involved in their community.
The one thing they CAN do? And LOVE doing?
Bitch, moan, whine, and carp about how onerous the board is.
I live very close to mtnbkr. I've been in his community, he's been in mine.
I'm not sure where you get most of your "facts," but I cry foul on all of them.
For example, confiscation of property of emigrants [sic].
I don't know where you live, but my community is roughly 1/2 immigrants and we've never: 1. seized anyone's property, or 2. forced anyone out.
Seizing property is a process called non-judicial foreclosure. It's a process that is FRAUGHT with peril for HOAs, and in fact is rarely used in this country. The cases in which it is applied often make national news (the case of the man in Jupiter, Fla., for example).
Your example of confiscation of private property is also bogus. Homeowners own their property as defined by the survey boundaries. I own my home, the back yard, and the front yard. The commons grounds in the community, including parking lots, streets, sidewalks, playgrounds, treelines, etc., are not held by the HOA board, they're held in sum total by all owners as an undivided 1/77th interest. My property deed, filed in Fairfax County, Virginia, is clear indication that I own the property bounded by the survey lines on my property plat, not the HOA.
Answer me these questions 2.
1. Have you ever lived in an HOA/PUD community?
2. If so, have you taken an active interest in your community, such as attending board meetings, participating in board elections, etc.?
If you actually sat down and thought about it rationally, you'd understand that HOAs are HEAVILY regulated by state laws in virtually every state in the Country. That they are, in fact, simply another form of government, not unlike town or county government. That they are (or should be) responsive to the needs of the residents of the community, and if they're not, there are means of rectifying that.
Post by: Paddy on October 06, 2005, 05:31:11 AM
Builders are not 'colluding' with anybody. They're simply filling a need for housing and maximizing profits by increasing density. Housing is becoming increasingly expensive and ownership of any real estate provides the benefit of equity appreciation. The HOA's exist to enforce the CCR's which set standards for the development and protect the owner's investment.
Without the rules, there would be no way to stop someone from collecting trash, junk vehicles, old appliances, etc on their property, dragging down the values of nearby homes.
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 05:35:47 AM
Chris
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 06:12:18 AM
And even that's a stretch of monumental proportions.
What about apartment buildings?
The "state" owns the building, you have no ownership interest in it at all, and yet your rent goes to support the well being of everyone, even those who pay less rent than you.
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 06:19:36 AM
Quote
What about apartment buildings?
Even better. 
I prefer squatter's rights though. Had my neighbor's house not sold, I would've knocked out the dividing walls and created the first "doublewide" townhome. Heck, I may still do it, the new owners haven't moved in yet.
Chris
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 06:23:32 AM
Well, the Altima is closer to being up on blocks all the time...
Just stick a sippy nipple on a beer bottle for the midget and you're in your own Redneck Paradise!
I'll bring my banjo over on Saturday before we head out for the gun show/tractor pull/moonshine tasting and we can get a hootenany going.
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 06:31:20 AM
Chris
Post by: Sindawe on October 06, 2005, 06:41:31 AM
Quote
This is called INTERDEPENDENCE and is probably the main principle that americans once shunned but have now been conditioned to accept as not only normal, but workable.
Interdependence has been the norm of human existence for as long as there have been humans. Its also called being part of a community. Or are you by chance one of those rare individuals who grows and processes all his own food, mines and smelts all his own metals and generates all his own power?Quote
BTW, a better example of an HOA type organization being "communistic" would be a Condo or Co-op. Heck, based on what I know of Co-Ops (and it's probably very little), they're the very model of Communistic ideals applied to home ownership. There, you only own your home to the paint on the walls, everything else is managed for and by the tenants for the good of all tenants.
This is exactly the type of community/HOA I live in. I "own" the airspace, paint and flooring here, and have exclusive usage rights to the fenced patio and one garage. The rest is "owned" by the HOA at large, of which I have 1/54 share of the entire development. Ya know what? I KNEW all this before I bought in 10 years ago, and had no issues with it since it was a fair trade off for what I wanted (single access garage for the motorcycles, proximity to work, increasing equity over time) for a cost that was workable for me.Quote
I would've knocked out the dividing walls and created the first "doublewide" townhome. Heck, I may still do it, the new owners haven't moved in yet.
You're not the only one. The unit to my north has been vacant for about a month now, and punching a hole through the separating walls would make a nice, spacious quase McMansion. And I could keep more cats with the extra space.
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 06:56:01 AM
I've violated a rule from the Rednek Eddycat Handbook!
How could I have been so gauche and disrespect such a rich cultural heritage and tradition by.... BBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh hell, I couldn't keep that up!
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 07:01:24 AM
Chris
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 07:06:52 AM
What else is she going to do to me?
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 07:11:50 AM
Chris
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 07:27:17 AM
She starts pulling combo moves on me, no more Uncle Mike the Monkey Swing.
Post by: mtnbkr on October 06, 2005, 07:33:43 AM
How did we go from the socialist nature of HOAs to my 2yo daughter kicking your ass?
Chris
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 08:50:38 AM
Your daughter is a Communist?
I think it has a lot to do with the hammer & sickle on the bum of the red diapers she wears... What's that name brand again... Proletariate Pampers?
Post by: Vodka7 on October 06, 2005, 08:56:29 AM
That said, the HOA neighborhood in Kentucky was one of the best places I've ever lived. They ran a pool and tennis courts for the neighborhood, and rules were pretty lax all around. Everyone's house was brick, so there wasn't much chance of garrish painting anyway, and while you couldn't leave an old chevy on blocks in your front yard, you could (for a certain amount of time) leave a visiting relative's RV parked on the street. The best thing about the whole situation was, and I should make a disclaimer that I move a lot, knowing that when it came time to sell your house, the whole neighborhood would be presentable. There wouldn't be a neighbor with grass he hadn't cut in a month (after a certain period of time, the HOA cut your grass and billed you for it) or someone down the street with shutters falling off. With home prices the way they are the last eight years or so, it's not surprising that people are locking themselves into an arrangement that will help preserve their investment, regardless of the hidden costs.
I do agree it's a shame that in some parts of the country, there is no new development that isn't exactly as you described. Cookie-cutter houses with a shared wall, no yards, every house the same color, and even those *shudder* communal mailboxes. In my town in southern Connecticut, the only new development in years has been one of these. We have a great school system, especially compared to the towns to the north of us, and it's a shame that anyone who wants to move into the area has to chose from what's on the market or one of these things.
God isn't making any more Earth, and even if He was, I don't know if the snooty people on our zoning board would let Him build on it. God forbid He wanted to put a cell phone tower on it, that's for sure.
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 06, 2005, 09:24:59 AM
Don't want to live in a governed neighborhood/building? Okay. Don't buy there. No one has a gun to your head (which, I believe, is the defining element of the truly communistic experience - "Our way or die.").
If you like having some control over the conditions and looks of your neighborhood then, by all means, buy into an HOA/Planned Community. Personally I wouldn't but, hey, it's your money.
At least we still have a choice!
Brad
Post by: ...has left the building. on October 06, 2005, 09:25:14 AM
Dan (who deals with commie R/E developers every single day)
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 11:24:47 AM
DING DING DING!
Over the past decade I've worked very hard on my HOA to do two things:
1. Keep the impact of the HOA as minimal as possible as far as rules and enforcement are concerned, and
2. Ensure that community presentability remains as high as it possibly can be.
Overall, I'd say that the board I'm on has suceeded admirably in both of those areas.
There are a number of HOAs in my area (in Alexandria and Reston areas of Virginia) that have a nasty habit/reputation of being VERY intrusive. They will actually walk around with paint chips for the approved colors. If your paint is faded in the least bit, you get a very nasty letter.
Those communal mailboxes are a pain in the butt, but that's not an HOA requirement, that's a US Postal Service requirement. Even new, single family communities are being required to put in communal mailboxes because the postal service is trying to be more efficient.
Still, in Northern Virginia and Maryland, there are many many homes on the market that do not fall under HOA/PUD strictures.
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 11:27:03 AM
When you get right down to it, though, every parcel of land in the United States is under "governmental control" to one level or another, whether it's Federal, State, County, Town, City, Condo Association, or HOA.
That's not necessarily a good thing, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
It's just a thing.
What determines how good or bad it is is how proactive/repressive the local governing entity is.
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 11:28:36 AM
Just to be clear, in what way?
That HOA's are Stalin's progeny, and a spiritual ode to repression in action?
Or those who think that's ludicrous?
Post by: grampster on October 06, 2005, 02:55:57 PM
(We gave you a Republic, madam, if you can keep it)
Post by: Sindawe on October 06, 2005, 03:14:54 PM
Quote
And I have personally found that if you get off'n yur dead fat fanny, get up from being crouched in front of your keyboard and screen railing on the internet, one can get easily appointed to local Planning Commissions, Zoning Boards, and even elected to local office very easily. Then you can have a hand in how these rules are implemented or gotten rid off. It's called "Getting Involved". Any takers?
Yep, right here grampster. Involvement with the City .gov is next step in my Cunning Plan to amass obscene amounts of power. I can't WAIT to decorate the Oval Office in striking black and red color schemes. Post by: grampster on October 06, 2005, 03:46:40 PM
My next step is County Road Commissioner so that I might pillage the treaury even more effectively since there is so much pork in road bills. Oink Oink.
One step at a time towards absolute power and corruption.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 06, 2005, 03:54:34 PM
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 04:30:31 PM
An alien from area 51?
Post by: Sindawe on October 06, 2005, 05:28:53 PM
Post by: Sindawe on October 06, 2005, 05:31:21 PM
Post by: K Frame on October 06, 2005, 05:37:52 PM
Wearing a tin foil cap...
Oh lord.
Post by: brimic on October 06, 2005, 05:40:31 PM
There are two types of people that predominantly populate my subdivision- young couples mostly from rural areas that want to live close enough to work but want to be pretty much left alone, and 'snowbird' retirees whose biggest concerns tend to be about dog feces deposited on their lawns from a few inconsiderate dog owners.
Post by: brimic on October 06, 2005, 05:41:51 PM
Post by: SteveS on October 07, 2005, 05:28:50 AM
Quote from: Mike Irwin
"This is the most absurd thread I've ever read."
Just to be clear, in what way?
That HOA's are Stalin's progeny, and a spiritual ode to repression in action?
Or those who think that's ludicrous?
I just wanted to chime in and say that this is in the top 10 of ridiculous threads...and I am referring to the progeny of Stalin idea.Just to be clear, in what way?
That HOA's are Stalin's progeny, and a spiritual ode to repression in action?
Or those who think that's ludicrous?
HOA's are a manifestation of liberty, in that they allow private citizens to contract with other private citizens and form agreements as to how they will live. Once in, they can be changed by mutual consent and can be terminated by leaving/selling.
Like some others have pointed out, if you don't like it, don't buy into it. There are plenty of other choices. Better yet, buy a large tract of land and start your own development with whatever rules you want (or have absolutely no rules).
I live in a neighberhood with a HOA. There are times when I do not like the rules, but I had a copy of them before I bought the house, so I have no room to complain. I was "elected" to the board several years ago. Basically, I ran unopposed. I had to resign because meetings conflicted with work. Most of the residents never came to the meetings. Out of about 100 adults, we would get 3 or 4 that showed up to meetings. Most people didn't care about participating in the decision making process. OTOH, we would get all sorts of calls, complaining about this and that.
For the most part, I like where I live. Would I live in another place with a HOA? Probably not, but that is mostly because I would like to live on some acreage.
Post by: roo_ster on October 07, 2005, 05:34:34 AM
Quote
The picture would be more clear except it's hard to hold cat, camera, and carefully made tinfoil yarmulke (with earholes) together and keep it still
I hear staples come in handy at times like these.
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 06:06:52 AM
But, but but but but but but but but...
THAT'S COMMUNISM!!!
Post by: Justin on October 07, 2005, 07:48:50 AM
On the internet, every topic is controversial to someone, somewhere.
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 07:51:51 AM
I'M OFFENDED BY THAT!
Post by: ...has left the building. on October 07, 2005, 09:49:43 AM
Quote from: Justin
This whole thread just goes to prove my theory:
On the internet, every topic is controversial to someone, somewhere.
Very true! But I'd like to add that this thread would only make sense if I were in a shack in Montana crimping blasting caps. On the internet, every topic is controversial to someone, somewhere.
Post by: grampster on October 07, 2005, 12:50:54 PM
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 07, 2005, 01:27:15 PM
Quote
Ahhhmm, cough; What was it we were talking about???
Since when has that been a problem with THIS group.... 
Brad
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on October 07, 2005, 01:51:05 PM
My mother recently moved into a condo built in a planned community. She read the bylaws and spoke with the association board members, and then decided that this was the place she wanted to live. She's been quite happy there.
Are you saying my mother is a pinkie communist?
Why, in a free society, should she not have the right to do what she did?
Post by: Justin on October 07, 2005, 09:18:06 PM
Quote
Very true! But I'd like to add that this thread would only make sense if I were in a shack in Montana crimping blasting caps. wink
I have to wonder, once one reaches that level, do they continue to post on the internet? My gut feeling says "yes." But they probably don't tell any of their other shack-dwelling friends at The Annual Convention Of Crazy Loners lest they be lose their membership.
Post by: ...has left the building. on October 08, 2005, 03:55:27 AM
Quote from: Justin
Quote
Very true! But I'd like to add that this thread would only make sense if I were in a shack in Montana crimping blasting caps. wink
I have to wonder, once one reaches that level, do they continue to post on the internet? My gut feeling says "yes." But they probably don't tell any of their other shack-dwelling friends at The Annual Convention Of Crazy Loners lest they be lose their membership.