Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: K Frame on November 06, 2008, 01:13:14 AM
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This is incredible from someone like Ralph Nader...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/indexn?blogid=24
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Why incredible? In my experience it's liberals who are more apt to be racists than conservatives.
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It's incredible, because they usually take off the hood, before they get on camera.
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I think this makes even the goofiest of Ron Paul statements pale in comparison.
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No one remembers Nader getting a pass for saying he "felt like a n-----" a few years ago?
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Like him or not, Nader is an extremely intelligent man who is not threatened by words, nor will he be bullied by those who are - a trait that would serve many.
Regardless of his politics, I admire a man who can stand strong for what he believes without getting caught up in the meaningless hype of big dollar politics.
Nader's biggest mistake was going on Fox in the first place.
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You guys do know what an "uncle tom" is, right?
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"To put it very simply, he is our first African-American president. And we wish him well. But his choice, basically, is whether he is going to be Uncle Sam for this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations"
Poor choice of words. Very poor choice of words, he should have "...Uncle Sam for this country, or a stooge for the giant corporations" which is what he meant. Doesn't have the same rhetorical flow though.
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"To put it very simply, he is our first African-American president. And we wish him well. But his choice, basically, is whether he is going to be Uncle Sam for this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations"
Poor choice of words. Very poor choice of words, he should have "...Uncle Sam for this country, or a stooge for the giant corporations" which is what he meant. Doesn't have the same rhetorical flow though.
I'll agree that it was probably a poor choice of words, particularly if the audience has timid ears (the corporate media has done excellent work in thinning the skin of the American people, to the extent that we've been left utterly powerless in the face of . . . words (http://www.jibjab.com/view/148236)). Of course, it isn't like Shep Smith wasn't jumping at a chance to skewer his guest from the start of this roughly 4:20 seconds of wasted air-time. :rolleyes:
And, reading the quote again, Nader never calls Obama an 'uncle tom.' That's Obama's choice. Given his voting record in the Senate, I'll come right out here and predict that Obama is going to be just another lackey for those failed corporations who just want more and more bail-outs from 'we the people slaves.' Shep Smith probably doesn't know the historical meaning of the word, which Nader was about to share, but Fox News, in typical fashion, cut him off before he could explain it. No sweat for Nader, because I agree with Two Cold Soakers that he probably never should have gone on Fox News in the first place.
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You guys do know what an "uncle tom" is, right?
Why don't you tell us? We're so timid, we need your help, you big, strong man.
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Why don't you tell us? We're so timid, we need your help, you big, strong man.
Oh please. Be the victim, why don't you?
Click the hyperlink in my last post, and you'll be a big, strong man, too. ;/
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Why don't you tell us? We're so timid, we need your help, you big, strong man.
Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_tom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_tom)
; )
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You guys do know what an "uncle tom" is, right?
NO. I have NO clue! :rolleyes:
It has the same connotation as calling a black an Oreo or a white person an egg.
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He was close, but...
"Uncle Joe" is bound to be more appropriate.
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Shep Smith probably doesn't know the historical meaning of the word
Considering Sheperd Smith is from Mississippi, I'd bet he has a better understanding of the word and its connotations than you.
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So now that we are about to have a black president shouldn't we all just not worry about this sort of stuff?
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It has the same connotation as calling a black an Oreo or a white person an egg.
....or a Hispanic person a coconut.....
....why am I so hungry all of a sudden?....
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My dad is an Uncle Tom.
I have cousins.
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Oh please. Be the victim, why don't you?
Click the hyperlink in my last post, and you'll be a big, strong man, too. ;/
Wow, that video was a really deep and intellectual, four-and-half-minute exercise in failing to distinguish between free speech and common courtesy.
Anyway, I've read the book, and I actually found Uncle Tom to be a rather inspiring character. We're still waiting for you to enlighten us about the true meaning of "Uncle Tom."
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"Uncle Tom's Cabin" is a serious piece of literature that has had broad connotations since it's publication in 1852.
The character, Tom, is an inspiring character. Though, many people today use the name, "Uncle Tom", as a disparaging term for a black man who is overly eager to please "whitey", one who does "the man's" bidding, or a "sell out" to white people.
The phrase "House *let's not go there*" is one that is generally associated to the character name.
If one takes the time to read the book, one realizes that "Uncle Tom", is not a name that one should use disparage another black man, but is a name worthy of praise.
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Since we're on the subject, what was inspiring about Uncle Tom's character? What was it that he did or said that made him worthy of praise?
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Did you read the book? He was a mensch.
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Did you read the book? He was a mensch.
I'm glad you read the book—you're in limited company, perhaps. Now if we could get Shepherd Smith to read anything that's not been passed down to him from Murdoch . . . well, that'd be lovely.
So, you'd know that an "uncle tom" is a slave who allows his master to essentially walk all over him and/or those he cares for, usually—as others may perceive it—at the expense of his dignity. You'll also note that this was not a name which originated as a racial phrase used by whites to suppress blacks. It was first-adopted as a derogatory phrase by the black community. You might ask yourself this: Why would a white slave owner during those days degrade a black slave for being obedient to his master? That doesn't make much sense (although does not negate the fact that slave owners were certainly eager to degrade blacks when the did something perceived to be disobedient), and, while I suppose there are cases in which a black man might actually be racist towards other blacks (Clayton Bigsby, anyone? (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/291638/clayton_bigsby/)), in the antebellum days, the phrase "uncle tom" was not conceived as a label specifically dependent on race, but rather, a disdainful phrase for someone who doesn't respect themselves enough to stand up and fight for their freedoms, or seek out a better life (underground railroad escape attempts, for example, risky—yet worth the risk to someone who respects the value of freedom). Over time, the use of the phrase "uncle tom" spread (got out-right butchered, rather) to the extent that the people to which it was applied actually began believing that they could not overcome their environments. True, eventually whites began using the phrase as well in the form of unrelenting racial hate speech, and the truly racially-fueled and immoral injustices were born, like the stereotypical era of motion-picture "black-face" actors. Thus, the tools of oppression which still survive in-part to this date were forged—the remnant of which, best summarized, is: the government-fueled general myth that blacks (minorities in general, or, now, anyone of any race, rather) cannot overcome and succeed on their own (this bred the entitlement myth, which the Democrats (and now some Republicans) use to rely on a relatively assured voter-base). Look for this to expand beyond minorities and poor whites to the point of breaking. After it all falls apart, perhaps, the concept of self-determination may return to this country. But the point is: You are only what you consider yourself to be. If you think you are a slave, you are a slave. If you believe you are a free man, then, by God, it is beyond my, or anyone else's, power to make a slave of you. Perhaps if we white folks would stop being so zealously protective of African Americans or other minorities—treating them as though their some fragile bunny rabbit to be fed, petted, and watered—they'd finally empower themselves, and that would truly be something that no one can take away—certainly not by spewing out a few racial slurs, if in fact Nader had done so. ;)
So, fast-forward to election year 2008, and here's the analogy that sailed wide over some heads:
Corrupt/failing corporations with political influence (AIG, GSachs, etc.) = slave owners of the antebellum era
Government puppets of said corporations (McCain, Obama, Clinton, Bush, etc.) = "uncle toms," pacifist slaves themselves
[sane] American people = slaves who resent the "uncle toms" for bending over and kissing their owners' arses
Racial? Eh, I hope not. That's contrary to what the media would probably prefer you to believe, but I've seen you folks moan and groan [justifiably so, to be clear :angel:] about all the unwarranted race-card playing that went on during this race (in fact, I can't really even believe I'm debating this with YOU folks, instead of some Obama loons, but unfortunately, we have to wait for them to see that Obama isn’t all he’s cracked up to be). The point that Shepherd Smith missed, either intentionally in an effort to try to ruin Ralph Nader because he got more votes than any other third-party—or maybe Shepherd's just plain stupid—is this:
Nader posed the challenging (or not-so?) question that Obama must now ask of himself: Will I be the president who will put an end to this corrupt, practically incestuous relationship between the federal government and corporations seeking welfare at the expense of the people? OR Will I follow suit of every other "uncle tom" president before me, and bend to the will of the men actually running this plantation called the United States government, rather than heed the will of the people I am supposed to represent?
I am not that naive—All evidence, particularly Obama's past voting records, points to the former, and, by that standard, McCain just as well qualifies to be labeled an "uncle tom," as goes for Bush, or Clinton, or [insert any no-balls politician here]. It's up to Obama whether or not the "shoe fits."—Not Nader. Nader asked a question—no different than if he had gone up to Mr. Obama and asked him if he considers himself a "house-*let's not go there*" or a free man. I should hope that Obama considers himself a free man, though whether or not he considers you and I as free persons, is another story entirely.
This post, of course, assumes the fact that Nader has always made a stand for minorities and low-income families (though, often approaching it from the wrong angles—his calls to raise the minimum wage, for instance, is not going to stop inflation, which is the real reason why those with low incomes—or even middle-incomes—are unable to save their earnings), and speaks out against corporate welfare better than a handful of Republicans who will be cleaning out their desks in the coming months.
[And the Carlos Mencia video was not meant to be "deep or intellectual." It was meant to make a mockery of this thin-skinned attitude that Americans cannot say anything that someone else might perceive to be offensive (regardless of what is considered "common courtesy" or not—some people don't like flag-burning, and some people think it's wrong to criticize the goverment—well, darn, we don't want to offend anybody). In other words, we all could stand to grow a pair. Though, if you ever want someone to cause you to stop and think, comedians are far more useful than politically-correct, agenda-driven distortionist news anchors with bad acting skills (That whole "Shame on you, tisk-tisk, Mr. Nader"? Load. Of. Crap. Shepherd Smith smudged that interview because racism, whether it is actually present or incorrectly perceived to be, causes sensationalism and sensationalism great for ratings—a lesson borrowed from CNN. Worked quite well, unfortunately. ;/).]
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Considering Sheperd Smith is from Mississippi, I'd bet he has a better understanding of the word and its connotations than you.
I'm from Georgia. I wouldn't know racism if it jumped up and bit me in the face then?
Truth is, I think most folks try terribly hard to over-come it down here, but it is almost as if the rest of the country is just now catching on to it and rekindling the furnaces. Like I said, racism is just great for ratings and all that.
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Wow, you really did give us a lecture there. Not that I bothered to read much of it. A short paragraph or two would have sufficed.
We all know how "Uncle Tom" is used today, and who started using it that way.
We all know exactly what Nader was trying to say. And I don't even claim he was being racist in using the term. But he might have had a little more discretion than to compare the First Red Black President to a slave.
Were you, by chance, one of these people who didn't see the need for Ron Paul to refuse that white supremacist donation? =|
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Well, I didn't want to leave any doubt as to what the original context of "uncle tom" meant :laugh:, and since Fox news has sort of a bad habit of cutting people off before they can fully explain themselves . . .
I can't for the life of me figure out the "egg" slur that Mike was talking about. I had to go to urbandictionary.com to figure out what that one meant, and I'm still unsure, as the number-one voted up definition was the actual definition of egg.
Were you, by chance, one of these people who didn't see the need for Ron Paul to refuse that white supremacist donation?
I am, by chance, one of those people who don't buy into the whole notion that supporters define a candidate.
In short, I didn't see the need.
edited for clarification
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Did you read the book? He was a mensch.
Yes, I did read the book. I'm not seeing specifically what was terribly inspiring from the American perspective. Generally, when we think of breaking the bonds of tyranny we think of...the Boston Tea Party, Samuel Adams, George Washington, etc. We don't tend to celebrate the people who gently served the monarchy and refused as a matter of principle to ever raise a hand against it.
That's why I can see where the term "uncle tom" might be used as disparaging. In the context of slavery, you want to celebrate those who resist its evil actively and in every way possible, not those who are so gentle that their slave masters can't help but admire their obedience and good character.
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Who said he was a champion of liberty? He was a genuinely good, self-sacrificing guy. Sorry if he wasn't quite as holy as thou art.
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Who said he was a champion of liberty? He was a genuinely good, self-sacrificing guy. Sorry if he wasn't quite as holy as thou art.
Yeah, "holy as me" and holiness were decidedly not the qualities that the users, in this context, of the term "Uncle Tom" seek to champion.
That was sort of the point, and the argument in support of using the term as a perjorative: if you are genuinely nice to your slave masters and self-sacrifice for their sake, that's in some way contributing to and accepting the continuance of the master-slave relationship. In other words, doing evil by your gentle compliance.
I think division over the term is a matter of one's perspective on the proper response to evil. Some people think that by simply cooperating and doing good deeds, you can defeat evil, because the evildoers will love and admire you so much. Others are of the view that only direct confrontation and complete refusal are appropriate responses to evil, no matter the intentions of the evildoer.
The more one views slavery as an intolerable evil that demands revolutionary and violent confrontation, the more one will see being an "uncle tom" as a bad thing, in other words.
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Well, I didn't want to leave any doubt as to what the original context of "uncle tom" meant :laugh:, and since Fox news has sort of a bad habit of cutting people off before they can fully explain themselves . . .
I can't for the life of me figure out the "egg" slur that Mike was talking about. I had to go to urbandictionary.com to figure out what that one meant, and I'm still unsure, as the number-one voted up definition was the actual definition of egg.
I am, by chance, one of those people who don't buy into the whole notion that supporters define a candidate.
In short, I didn't see the need.
edited for clarification
Still not over yourself in your need to lecture on the derivation of terms that were in common use before anyone here was conceived?
Wow.
Just...
Wow.
Next could you explain basic arithmetic?
Perhaps Heliocentrism? Gravity?
:rolleyes:
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Over myself? I wasn't the one who jumped up and started playing the liberal race-card tactics the moment that someone wrote a blog on the Ralph Nader interview. :cool:
You don't have to read my lectures. I was challenged to give the definition of an 'uncle tom' in the context in which it was meant during the interview. Whether or not anyone cares to read it is not my problem.
You don't have to use the words 'egg' or 'oreo' or 'coconut' (really?) or any other word that gets murdered by society every time we turn around. There's more than one meaning of the word bitch, but I'd like to think I'd be smart enough to figure out which one my veterinarian means when I take my dog in to see him. I bet you folks would be too, which leaves me to believe this is just more of the same race-card playing that I've seen from the liberal media.
I can't help you with arithmetic, though.
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Reading about how Uncle Tom became a derisory term - apparently some stage productions of the book depicted him in a negative manner.
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At this point, Nader has made himself irrelevant in the political discourse.
IMO, him saying this was a bit of attention whoring so that some news channel would take the bait.
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I was challenged to give the definition of an 'uncle tom' in the context in which it was meant during the interview.
Actually, no. You claimed that others didn't know what "Uncle Tom" means. I called you on it, and you wrote five pages of stuff we already knew. So you wasted your time, again, the way you already wasted your time pursuing the false trail that the rest of us didn't know what "Uncle Tom" meant.
shootinstudent,
You're also missing the point. Uncle Tom, a fictional character, was highly influential in ending slavery, by bringing an anti-slavery message to thousands of Northerners. After all, Uncle Tom's Cabin was an anti-slavery tract, and a very popular stage play. But it wasn't a guide to slaves (most of whom couldn't read, after all), on how to gain their freedom. It would be quite wrong to think that Stowe was giving Black people an example of what a slave should do. He was a symbol to Whites, that Blacks were human beings capable of good character, and a reminder that they were Christian brothers and sisters. He also served the literary purpose of a martyr, and I seem to remember he was surrounded by quite a bit of Christ imagery.
Take a look at American history. Slave revolts, whether John Brown's, Nat Turner's, or Denmark Vesey's, did nothing to end slavery. In fact, the slave revolt in Haiti only made White Americans more determined to keep Black Americans in subjection. Blacks who escaped slavery and joined the Abolitionist cause, such as Frederick Douglas, did much more to end slavery, but even their efforts could only go so far.
And then, you would have to understand that, as a pious Christian, Tom was not primarily concerned with ending slavery. Christian teaching has always put more value on spiritual liberty than earthly liberty, and on other's well-being that one's own. This is why Jesus of Nazareth taught a message of spiritual salvation, and did not seem terribly concerned about the Roman yoke that his disciples perceived as a major, if not the major, problem to be overcome.
None of which implies that revolution or violent overthrow are always wrong, or that slavery is ever right. And you will also kindly note that I don't deny the validity of "Uncle Tom" as an epithet, in common usage. Which is why Nader's use of the term was so callous and stupid.
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Reading about how Uncle Tom became a derisory term - apparently some stage productions of the book depicted him in a negative manner.
I don't know about that, but the prof told us that the book and play were extremely popular in the South, as well as the North. In the South, Evangeline was seen as the more central character, as a symbol of Southern womanhood stained by the horrors of slave-holding. I think they even changed the name of the play, down South, to make it more about her than about Tom.
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"I don't know about that, but the prof told us that the book and play were extremely popular in the South"
Beg your pardon?
The reaction to Uncle Tom's Cabin in the south, and to the author, was pretty dramatically negative.
It was banned in any number of places as abolitionist propaganda. Copies of it were burned, anyone with a copy of it could be arrested, and Stowe was professionally and personally attacked.
Stowe received hate mail for many years after publishing the book, including the most famous example, a package with a slave's severed ear.
It also resulted in a number of books defending slavery.
I can't even imagine what might have happened to actors who attempted to put this on in the South.
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OK, then. Perhaps I remember wrong, or my Prof was nuts.
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Actually, no. You claimed that others didn't know what "Uncle Tom" means. I called you on it, and you wrote five pages of stuff we already knew.
You're also missing the point. Uncle Tom, a fictional character...
Maybe because the first 5 replies, including your remark about removing his hood, implied racism.
Exactly, why get so bent out of shape over a fictional character? The Mencia video definitely applies.
I was challenged to give the definition of an 'uncle tom' in the context in which it was meant during the interview.
And I think you did a damn good job. When I first saw video, my thoughts where that Obama can choose to make corp's be responsible (Uncle Sam), or cater to them (Uncle Tom). I just didn't know how to explain/illustrate.
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My uncle is an Uncle Tom.
His name is Thomas. Actually, his son's name is also Thomas, and his son has a niece -- so I guess his son is also an Uncle Tom
So does that make Uncle Tom-ism hereditary?