Post by: The Rabbi on October 21, 2005, 12:42:36 PM
Quote
Washington, October 17, 2005 In anticipation of the upcoming vote in the House of Representatives on The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 800), Rabbi Marla J. Feldman, Director of the Commission of Social Action of Reform Judaism, and Jane Wishner, Chairperson, Commission of Social Action of Reform Judaism, issued the following letter urging House leaders to oppose the bill. The complete letters follows:
Dear House Leadership,
We are writing on behalf of the Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism, which represents more than 900 congregations, 1,800 rabbis and encompasses 1.5 million Reform Jews throughout North America, to strongly urge you to oppose The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 800), sponsored by Cliff Stearns (R-FL).
HR 800 would grant sweeping legal immunity to the gun industry, preventing victims of gun violence from seeking justice in our nations courts. The Senate has already passed its version of this bill (S. 397), making it increasingly important that you oppose this bill when it comes to vote this week.
The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act would provide the gun industry with unprecedented immunity from lawsuits brought by victims of gun violence, governments, and civic organizations for civil damages based on the misuse of a firearm. The bill immunizes all arms of the gun industry manufacturers, dealers, distributors, and importers from lawsuits, including dealers who negligently sell guns to traffickers. This bill would also require an immediate dismissal of pending lawsuits, which would strip victims of the D.C. area sniper attack, along with many others, of their rights. If H.R. 800 passes, the gun industry will be the only industry in the United States with such broad protection from legal responsibility for its actions. In a nation where nearly 30,000 people die from gun violence each year, this legislation would remove a major incentive for gun manufacturers and dealers to make their products safer, improve their distribution practices, and keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children.
The Talmud teaches that he who takes one life it is as though he has destroyed the universe and he who saves one life it is as though he has saved the universe. The carelessness and ease by which guns take human life directly violate these affirmations of Jewish principle.
The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (H.R. 800) is a reckless attempt to provide unique legal protection to the gun industry at the expense of innocent Americans. We urge you to oppose this bill and protect the legal rights of victims of gun violence.
Sincerely,
/s/
Rabbi Marla J. Feldman
Director, Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism
/s/
Jane Wishner
Chairperson, Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism
My email to them:Dear House Leadership,
We are writing on behalf of the Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism, which represents more than 900 congregations, 1,800 rabbis and encompasses 1.5 million Reform Jews throughout North America, to strongly urge you to oppose The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 800), sponsored by Cliff Stearns (R-FL).
HR 800 would grant sweeping legal immunity to the gun industry, preventing victims of gun violence from seeking justice in our nations courts. The Senate has already passed its version of this bill (S. 397), making it increasingly important that you oppose this bill when it comes to vote this week.
The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act would provide the gun industry with unprecedented immunity from lawsuits brought by victims of gun violence, governments, and civic organizations for civil damages based on the misuse of a firearm. The bill immunizes all arms of the gun industry manufacturers, dealers, distributors, and importers from lawsuits, including dealers who negligently sell guns to traffickers. This bill would also require an immediate dismissal of pending lawsuits, which would strip victims of the D.C. area sniper attack, along with many others, of their rights. If H.R. 800 passes, the gun industry will be the only industry in the United States with such broad protection from legal responsibility for its actions. In a nation where nearly 30,000 people die from gun violence each year, this legislation would remove a major incentive for gun manufacturers and dealers to make their products safer, improve their distribution practices, and keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children.
The Talmud teaches that he who takes one life it is as though he has destroyed the universe and he who saves one life it is as though he has saved the universe. The carelessness and ease by which guns take human life directly violate these affirmations of Jewish principle.
The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (H.R. 800) is a reckless attempt to provide unique legal protection to the gun industry at the expense of innocent Americans. We urge you to oppose this bill and protect the legal rights of victims of gun violence.
Sincerely,
/s/
Rabbi Marla J. Feldman
Director, Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism
/s/
Jane Wishner
Chairperson, Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism
Quote
Hi,
While I have always considered the Reform Movement clueless on Jewish issues, the recent letter opposing HR 800 is a spectacular example of cluelessness and knee-jerk reactions. The factual mistakes in the statement are matched only by the ignorance in the assumptions made.
To start: the bill, which passed fortunately, outlaws only suits against manufacturers stemming from third party actions. If a manufacturer made an unsafe product it would still be liable for all civil penalties that any other manufacturer would be liable for. This bill does not change that.
The bill was necessary because municipalities and others have targeted the firearms industry in an attempt to bankrupt them out of existence through junk lawsuits. These lawsuits are based on the premise that the manufacturer has some control over how anyone else will use the product. That is a false premise. If I assault someone with a copy of Gates of Prayer who is responsible, me or the Reform Movement which published the book? Obviously the attacker, the tool of the assault is merely that, a tool. Jewish Law recognizes this concept of strict liability as well.
The letter states that "HR 800 would grant sweeping legal immunity to the gun industry, preventing victims of gun violence from seeking justice in our nations courts.." It does no such thing. Any victim may seek justice from his attacker in any way currently available to him. The bill does prohibit the victim from seeking a cash jackpot from a third party with no control over the end user of their product. This would be the first time I have heard of cash jackpots referred to as "justice." I do not know what kind of justice it is that punishes people for acts committed by others. It is hardly the Justice the Torah refers to in "tzedek, tzedek tirdof."
More, the letter states, "The carelessness and ease by which guns take human life directly violate these affirmations of Jewish principle." Guns do not take human life. Poison does not take human life. Bombs do not take human life. Only human beings purposefully take human life. I will add that firearms have been shown to be useful in protecting human life as well, maybe thousands of times a year.
The hostility of liberal Jews to firearms is shocking in light of the history of our people. We are a prominent people here and elsewhere and are often singled out for attack by anti semites. The tragedy of the Buford Furrow attacks could have been averted had someone on the scene had a gun to stop him with. Self-defense is not only a basic human right but a basic principle enshrined in the Torah. To deny people the tools to accomplish that right is tantamount to leaving them helpless and dependent.
Finally the letter states, "In a nation where nearly 30,000 people die from gun violence each year, this legislation would remove a major incentive for gun manufacturers and dealers to make their products safer, improve their distribution practices, and keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children." This is pathetic. The bill does nothing to encourage criminals or children to get guns. The bill deals solely with civil penalties. Criminal misuse of a firearm is already the subject of many statutes, none of which is nullified by this bill. I worked in a gun store are one time. I am well aware of the procedures for purchasing firearms. Criminals do not get them from stores unless they steal them. If someone stole your car from your garage and ran into a school should you be held responsible? No, I dont think so. Neither do this bill's authors.
In all, my only source of glee is that not only did this bill pass but others opposed by the anti gun lobby are well on their way. The arguments of those favoring gun control have been shown to be invalid and politically unpopular.
Thank you and Gut Moed,
Like it'll do any good.
While I have always considered the Reform Movement clueless on Jewish issues, the recent letter opposing HR 800 is a spectacular example of cluelessness and knee-jerk reactions. The factual mistakes in the statement are matched only by the ignorance in the assumptions made.
To start: the bill, which passed fortunately, outlaws only suits against manufacturers stemming from third party actions. If a manufacturer made an unsafe product it would still be liable for all civil penalties that any other manufacturer would be liable for. This bill does not change that.
The bill was necessary because municipalities and others have targeted the firearms industry in an attempt to bankrupt them out of existence through junk lawsuits. These lawsuits are based on the premise that the manufacturer has some control over how anyone else will use the product. That is a false premise. If I assault someone with a copy of Gates of Prayer who is responsible, me or the Reform Movement which published the book? Obviously the attacker, the tool of the assault is merely that, a tool. Jewish Law recognizes this concept of strict liability as well.
The letter states that "HR 800 would grant sweeping legal immunity to the gun industry, preventing victims of gun violence from seeking justice in our nations courts.." It does no such thing. Any victim may seek justice from his attacker in any way currently available to him. The bill does prohibit the victim from seeking a cash jackpot from a third party with no control over the end user of their product. This would be the first time I have heard of cash jackpots referred to as "justice." I do not know what kind of justice it is that punishes people for acts committed by others. It is hardly the Justice the Torah refers to in "tzedek, tzedek tirdof."
More, the letter states, "The carelessness and ease by which guns take human life directly violate these affirmations of Jewish principle." Guns do not take human life. Poison does not take human life. Bombs do not take human life. Only human beings purposefully take human life. I will add that firearms have been shown to be useful in protecting human life as well, maybe thousands of times a year.
The hostility of liberal Jews to firearms is shocking in light of the history of our people. We are a prominent people here and elsewhere and are often singled out for attack by anti semites. The tragedy of the Buford Furrow attacks could have been averted had someone on the scene had a gun to stop him with. Self-defense is not only a basic human right but a basic principle enshrined in the Torah. To deny people the tools to accomplish that right is tantamount to leaving them helpless and dependent.
Finally the letter states, "In a nation where nearly 30,000 people die from gun violence each year, this legislation would remove a major incentive for gun manufacturers and dealers to make their products safer, improve their distribution practices, and keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children." This is pathetic. The bill does nothing to encourage criminals or children to get guns. The bill deals solely with civil penalties. Criminal misuse of a firearm is already the subject of many statutes, none of which is nullified by this bill. I worked in a gun store are one time. I am well aware of the procedures for purchasing firearms. Criminals do not get them from stores unless they steal them. If someone stole your car from your garage and ran into a school should you be held responsible? No, I dont think so. Neither do this bill's authors.
In all, my only source of glee is that not only did this bill pass but others opposed by the anti gun lobby are well on their way. The arguments of those favoring gun control have been shown to be invalid and politically unpopular.
Thank you and Gut Moed,
Post by: Azrael256 on October 21, 2005, 12:45:02 PM
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represents more than 900 congregations, 1,800 rabbis and encompasses 1.5 million Reform Jews throughout North America
Wow, that's news to me. I didn't realize I was "encompassed" by this blissninny organization. It's always nice when people I loathe claim to represent me.
Post by: Oleg Volk on October 21, 2005, 12:58:04 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 21, 2005, 01:09:36 PM
Quote from: Azrael256
Quote
represents more than 900 congregations, 1,800 rabbis and encompasses 1.5 million Reform Jews throughout North America
Wow, that's news to me. I didn't realize I was "encompassed" by this blissninny organization. It's always nice when people I loathe claim to represent me.If someone is a member of a Reform Temple they are members of this crapulous group as well. I guess that is 1.5M people. They should say "1.5M and shrinking" which is the truth, but Truth is a stranger in a Reform congregation.
Post by: Unisaw on October 21, 2005, 02:44:20 PM
Interesting how they completely ignore the second half of that sentence vis-a-vis defensive gun use.
Post by: Standing Wolf on October 21, 2005, 06:41:08 PM
Maybe they think "Never again!" is a greeting card slogan.
Then again, maybe they don't think at all.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 21, 2005, 10:10:47 PM
Members of the United Methodist church (Bush, Cheney) find themselves in similar states of bad company on the gun issue.
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=4&mid=937
Post by: Antibubba on October 21, 2005, 11:24:02 PM
Sad to say, it was the Reform movement this time, Rebbe, but we're not the only branch to have forgotten history, or turn a blind eye to reality.
We are a hardheaded people, slow to learn.
Post by: Preacherman on October 22, 2005, 03:15:20 AM
Post by: matis on October 22, 2005, 05:15:01 AM
And, as you said, a lot of good it will do.
As professionals, doctors, lawyers, scientists, or as business men they may be capable of very clear thinking.
But regarding religion and politics I have found that they use the brainpower they have to build castles in the air.
For most of my life as an atheist (I still don't pretend to be a believer), I understood there to be only three positions with respect to G-d: He exists, He doesn't exist, I don't know.
The Reform (and pretty much the Conservative Jews, I'm afraid) have invented a fourth position: The Creator of all that is does himself exist (gee thanks), but WE can amend (improve) his Torah.
Except for the fact that we, I and they, are all Jews, I never could find common ground with them. I used to ridicule them for believing in G-d.
Now that my position has shifted, it's still all I can do to keep from ridiculing them. Because I have realized that whatever my own position may have moved to, they DON'T believe in G-d. At least not in the G-d of our fathers.
How can the Creator of all that exists be weak (Why Bad Things Happen To Good People)?
And how can His creation, with it's human-scale brain-power, wonderful as it indeed is, understand reality sufficiently to instruct G-d on improvements?
I've read that some of their congregations actually vote on whether to drive to shul on Shabbos! They are completely oblivious to the absurdity involved: even if they vote NOT to drive on Shabbos, they are desecrating G-d's Name. If they do believe in G-d then theirs must be some reduced version. And Jews are strictly forbidden from worshipping idols.
I think their main point of confusion is that Judaism and convenience are compatible concepts.
Their politics is sunk in the same execrable confusion.
For me it is painful consolation that, as you wrote in an earlier post, they fail at passing their watered-down values on to their children. After shockingly few generations, their children are no longer Jews.
Or is it that they SUCCEED at passing their values on and their children want little part of them.
Exellent post, Rabbi. And you WERE banging your head on the wall.
matis
Post by: matis on October 22, 2005, 05:35:06 AM
Oleg's not yet Reformed... but I'm working on him! wink (Preacherman)
___________________________________________________
Preacherman I have the greatest respect for Oleg and I won't presume to speak for him.
But speaking strictly for myself, if you understood what you were saying, you wouldn't make a joke in such poor taste.
However, if you will permit me to use the word, there IS a saving grace in this: some Jews joke that Christianity IS a kind of reform Judaism (isn't it?).
This is in NO WAY meant as an insult, at least not to Christians. I, as a Jew, have deep respect for BELIEVING Christians.
I think that unless believing Christians and believing Jews unite in committing their strength to the cause, there will be no saving the values that built America and all of western civilization.
Thankfully, the backlash has begun. But the outcome is far from certain.
matis
Post by: El Tejon on October 22, 2005, 06:30:22 AM
Does evil reside in the hearts of man or in inert mechincal devices?
I do not understand this position. I went to a Jewish law school and talked with people that thought like this. I cannot understand why people who have a history of everyone in the world wanting them exterminated that they would render themselves helpless for any reason.
Post by: Azrael256 on October 22, 2005, 08:13:49 AM
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Members of the United Methodist church (Bush, Cheney) find themselves in similar states of bad company on the gun issue.
Irony time... I attend Oklahoma City University. We're serving the community in the United Methodist tradition or somesuch.El T, it baffles me as well. When the green police show up at my door, I will probably die in the fight, but I'm taking a few of them with me. It makes some sense that if I can kill two or three of them, they'll realize that the numbers are not in their favor. It would be nice if more Jews realized this.
Post by: matis on October 22, 2005, 08:47:39 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Rabbi Marla -- isn't.
I don't think that legitimate smicha (ordination) can be extended to women.
So, to me, a female rabbi or minister is just a confused woman wearing funny clothes.
matis
Post by: grampster on October 22, 2005, 09:19:27 AM
Convenience and Christianity seem to be thought compatible to many as well. Convenience may be the latest heresy both in religion and in the secular world. Some religionists seek to twist their holy books to promote and accomodate the god of Convenience rather than accomodating their lives to the timeless truth of sacred books. I notice the same is true with reference to our Constitution.
I also agree with Rabbi's response to the thoughtless drivel he critiques. Sadly, those who spout the drivel are to arrogant to be thoughtful regarding an opposing viewpoint, even though that viewpoint is steeped in logic.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 22, 2005, 03:37:59 PM
Quote from: Preacherman
Oleg's not yet Reformed... but I'm working on him!
In Yiddish that's called a "toit in bankess"Matis, cut Preacherman some slack. I know both these characters personally and never had anything but respect from both, which I hope I reciprocate.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 22, 2005, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: Preacherman
Oleg's not yet Reformed... but I'm working on him!
In Yiddish that's called a "toit in bankess"Matis, cut Preacherman some slack. I know both these characters personally and never had anything but respect from both, which I hope I reciprocate.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 22, 2005, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: matis
...
However, if you will permit me to use the word, there IS a saving grace in this: some Jews joke that Christianity IS a kind of reform Judaism (isn't it?).
This is in NO WAY meant as an insult, at least not to Christians. I, as a Jew, have deep respect for BELIEVING Christians.
I think that unless believing Christians and believing Jews unite in committing their strength to the cause, there will be no saving the values that built America and all of western civilization.
matis
I don't find it insulting, and I don't think very many Christians who are up on the history of their faith should - Although I'm sure there are more than a handful who have underlying racial issues who would. However, if you will permit me to use the word, there IS a saving grace in this: some Jews joke that Christianity IS a kind of reform Judaism (isn't it?).
This is in NO WAY meant as an insult, at least not to Christians. I, as a Jew, have deep respect for BELIEVING Christians.
I think that unless believing Christians and believing Jews unite in committing their strength to the cause, there will be no saving the values that built America and all of western civilization.
matis
the apostle Paul (Jewish by birth) chastening gentile Christians who thought they were better than the Jews
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin...If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Romans 11
I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement, and would broaden it to include a lot of other folks.
Post by: Oleg Volk on October 22, 2005, 07:26:55 PM
Post by: matis on October 22, 2005, 09:34:55 PM
Matis, cut Preacherman some slack. I know both these characters personally and never had anything but respect from both, which I hope I reciprocate.
________________________________________________________________
OK, ok, maybe I'm a bit touchy, sometimes.
And it's obvious that Oleg is too smart to get entangled in this one.
matis
Post by: SalukiFan on October 23, 2005, 01:36:51 AM
That said, I think that your letter gets an A for logic and an F for persuasion, Rabbi. I realize that youre teed off about this attack on HR 800, but kicking off the letter by saying that you think the Reform movement is clueless on Jewish issues more likely to get your letter regulated to the trash than to get it read and understood. You make several good points about liability and the pursuit of justice, I just hope that they read far enough to find them.
Have you considered asking your rabbi to write a letter about why gun control is detrimental to the RAC? Im considering talking to my rabbi to see if she would be interested in sending a letter. I hate to say it, but I think that they would be more likely to pay attention to something from another rabbi (even a Reconstructionist or Orthodox rabbi) than anything that any of us regular folks who arent affiliated with the URJ would send.
Matis, wow, you sound upset! I understand that you would like to see more people follow what you consider traditional Judaism because you see it as the only authentic expression of Judaism. I would argue that more liberal Jewish movements enable people that would otherwise be completely disconnected from Jewish tradition to practice daily observance and celebrate holidays and lifecycle events.
I dont want to assume too much but I gather that you are not yourself observant? If the reason that you are not yourself observant is because you believe that the only choices are either being a Chassid or being an apostate, I would encourage you to reconsider. There are many wonderful ways to practice Judaism and incorporate Jewish traditions and ethics into your life. Many sincere Jews in non-Orthodoxy who have studied the Torah and Talmud have found evidence that G-d speaks to each generation in a way that is relevant to the issues that they face. IMHO, Judaism did not survive for thousands of years by being a my way or the highway religion.
As far as not believing that a womans smicha is legitimate, well what can I say: Apparently, G-d thought enough of Miriam to make her a prophet and enough of Dvorah to make her a judge so Im not sure why having women as rabbis is such a stretch.
Chag Sameach,
SalukiFan
Post by: The Rabbi on October 23, 2005, 03:59:58 AM
I disagree that liberal strains have given Jews something rather than nothing. It is like a person with a bad infection who goes to a witch doctor instead of taking antibiotics. He thinks he is getting treated when in fact his actions make the condition worse. If he did nothing he would at least know he was doing nothing. In any case the difference between Orthodoxy and liberal versions of Judaism has nothing to do with the number of mitzvos performed. More, not all Orthodoxy is hassidism and there is plenty of diversity in the Orthodox camp.
Post by: Silver Bullet on October 23, 2005, 04:24:19 AM
Post by: Antibubba on October 23, 2005, 08:08:00 AM
If I'm this much of a blot on Judaism, I might as well go get Baptized, right?
Post by: matis on October 23, 2005, 08:35:58 AM
IMHO, Judaism did not survive for thousands of years by being a my way or the highway religion.
As far as not believing that a womans smicha is legitimate, well what can I say: Apparently, G-d thought enough of Miriam to make her a prophet and enough of Dvorah to make her a judge so Im not sure why having women as rabbis is such a stretch.
_____________________________________________________________
Salukifan,
It's a terrible stretch -- a fatal one. And the survival of Judaism is exactly what is at issue.
Some time ago I posted regarding a study I read about in Moment magazine, which is hardly an Orthodox forum.
The study involved going back 100 years, finding 200 members in each of 5 groups of Jews: secular, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox and Chassidic.
They traced the descendents to see how many in each group were still Jewish. The results were to me, shocking, and confirmed my growing devotion and love for Orthodox and Chassidic (Chabad) Judaism.
These were the results of the study (from memory): of the secular Jews only 2-3 remained Jewish after 100 years; of the Reform 4-5; of the Conservative 7-8; of the Orthodox Jews the 200 had become 800 and of the Chassidim 200 had become 5000! All the rest in the first three groups -- fell away!
So Reform Judaism, or any other watered-down form, is hardly the way to Jewish survival.
And I have no problem at all with female Prophets or Judges. It's only fake rabbis that trouble me. But don't feel bad; I don't consider male Reform Rabbis legitimate, either.
The point is that conforming Judaism (or any other religion including Christianity) to modern times -- that is tearing out the core beliefs to render it convenient, is a sure way to destroy it.
It's one thing for Judaism to change to incorporate modern technology. Few religious groups have adopted technology as has Chabad, for instance. Try typing in www.chabadincyberspace.com (or is it .org?) and see what you get. A Chabad Rabbi will light a Menorah in, say, Sidney or Toronto, and the event is instantaneously beamed to hundreds of locations, worldwide.
But as my Rabbi told me when I first fell in with these "religious fanatics", Judaism is a closed canon. In other words they REALLY believe that Torah is the word of G-d. And if it is, who are we to improve it?
On the other hand, I've had Reform Jews tell me that the Torah is only a story, a myth. Fine. But then why do they call themselves Jews? Why not just very up-to-date people whose ancestors were Jewish?
That I am not myself observant is a long story that would belong in a different venue. Sometimes I think that venue might be psychiatric (grin). But then the word, Israel, does mean "struggle with G-d", doesn't it?
Personally, I may struggle, but miracles do happen: I managed to convince my ex-wife NOT to convert when my precious daughter was less than 3 years old. My desperation about this was a large part of my motivation to fall in with Chabad.
It took me nearly 5 years, but I got her to return to our city with our child, with whom I never lost contact, to remarry me and they both became Chabadniks. She has since divorced me again (I guess I'm hard to live with -- you picked it up -- "it's my way or the highway"). But we are close, we shared the home-schooling of our daughter, and they are both Chassidim. My daughter now attends Yeshivah in Connecticut. Next year she will study in Israel. But she takes walks on the Yale campus. And she say that after earning her Bachelors, she wants to study law at Yale.
Where other 17 year olds wheedle trash CDs and DVDs from their fathers, my kid worked on me for a full set of Mitnik Chumashim (5 books of Torah). They're expensive. But if I may be permitted the expression, I thanked G-d for her (she was his 50th birthday present to me). Look at WHAT she is wheedling out of me!
The Chassidim say that G-d cries when one of his children is lost.
As a one-time militant atheist, I'd have to say he sure cut me a terrific break, didn't he?
Contrary to what the feminists believe, Judaism teaches reverence for women. They are the main-stay of Jewish life. And it doesn't matter who your father was. It is ONLY if your MOTHER was Jewish that you are a Jew.
Chag Sameach,
matis
Post by: matis on October 23, 2005, 09:18:42 AM
If I'm this much of a blot on Judaism, I might as well go get Baptized, right?
_____________________________________________________________
Antibubba, you can be very funny!
Nope, not a blot. Guys like you (and me) are not blots on Judaism.
Chassidim (Orthodox) teach that every Jew is the same to G-d. (He may be crying, though, 'cause you've misplaced your GPS unit {grin}).
But they also teach something else about guys like us. I'm not sure you'll like it. In fact I can almost hear you snorting.
Early in our friendship, I asked my Rabbi: "Why do you keep insisting that if the Temple stood today, I would NOT be stoned to death for my disbelief and inobservance?"
His answer deeply affected me. He said that long ago, our sages wrote that Jews like you and I, Antibubba, were to be treated as people who were kidnapped as babies and brought up as gentiles. We were not to be blamed.
Another way they say the same thing is that we are as prisoners -- of the galut (diaspora). We were robbed of our identities. We don't know who we are.
Now, it's easy for our egos to reject this way of looking at it. And I myself am certainly very far from ego-less. Yet I love this further evidence of the wisdom of Judaism.
(On the other hand, we're not supposed to use this as an excuse, either.)
Nobody is accusing you, Antibubba. You seem to get p/ssed at me from time to time. But I don't think it's real. 'Cause, all I feel for you is affection.
matis
Post by: SalukiFan on October 23, 2005, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Nothing is going to persuade those people. Merely expressing displeasure is about as much as I can get in.
Well Rabbi, if you just wanted to vent and exprees displeasure rather than persuade, you succeeded admirably. Quote from: The Rabbi
I disagree that liberal strains have given Jews something rather than nothing. It is like a person with a bad infection who goes to a witch doctor instead of taking antibiotics. He thinks he is getting treated when in fact his actions make the condition worse. If he did nothing he would at least know he was doing nothing. In any case the difference between Orthodoxy and liberal versions of Judaism has nothing to do with the number of mitzvos performed. More, not all Orthodoxy is hassidism and there is plenty of diversity in the Orthodox camp.
As far as your criticism of my comments and questions to matis:1. Let me see. Didnt we just have a conversation on the theological philosophy thread where you protested that you were hurt and offended that I joked that you wanted everyone to be Orthodox like you? Ah yes, here it is:
Quote from: The Rabbi
I take exception that you think I want you to be Orthodox just like me. That is not so. There are many fine people who are Orthodox not like me and that's fine too.
Have you changed your mind since then or is there a misunderstanding?2. I understand the diversity of Orthodoxy. I merely referred to the Chassidim in my post because I was tailoring my message to matis. I remembered that he had mentioned before that his ex-wife and daughter were Chasidic and that he had expressed great respect for Chasidism so I thought that would be relevant for him.
Matis,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I doubt that we will ever see eye-to-eye on Jewish issues but I appreciate that you seem to have thought long and hard about your beliefs.
As far as the study goes, I am familiar with the study and its conclusions. Just so you know however, it was not actually a study that followed people for 100 years, it was based on some extrapolations of statistical data from the 1990 National Jewish population study, a New York Jewish Population study in 1991 and a few other studies.
The actual numbers for the Chassidim were about 2600 after 4 generations, about 350 for the Orthodox, 24 for the Conservative, 13 for the Reform and 5 for the secular Jews but that was pretty good from memory!
As a sociologist and a Jew, I am interested in how this mathematical prediction was interpreted. The authors of the study link the successful passing on of Jewish tradition to the number of years children attend Jewish day school rather than Orthodox belief per se. If anything, I consider it more important to use this prediction to impress on parents the need to give their child a thorough Jewish education rather than have conversion to Orthodoxy as the only option for having Jewish grandchildren.
I have friends and acquaintances from pretty much every Jewish movement. Of them, my Reform friends who are dating, are all dating other Jews. One of my good friends, who is Conservative, just called a couple weeks ago to tell me he was getting married to a nice Jewish girl (Mazel tov Marty!). My friends that attend Chabad arent dating anyone yet, but the hunt for a Jewish husband is getting fierce. I know that this is anecdotal evidence but it seems to me that the common denominator here is that Jews that are religious and active in the Jewish community seek out, date and marry other Jews.
If the Reform or Conservative movements seem to have a lot of intermarriage, I would argue that it is mostly a function of those movements being more welcoming to the High Holy Days only crowd (who usually pull their kids out of religious education right after their bar or bat mitzvah). I think if you looked at the actual observance level rather than affiliation labels, the predicted numbers wouldnt be nearly as grim. One can make dire predictions about the likelihood of an average Jew in a certain movement of having Jewish grandchildren but I disagree that it can definitively say that my more observant Reform friends will have fewer grandchildren than some of the folks I know who call themselves Orthodox but date non-Jews.
I think its a little hasty to condemn non-Orthodox Judaism to the dust-bin. If 50 years from now the Chassidim rule the earth, Ill be impressed but until then, Im sticking up for non-Orthodoxy as being a vibrant and welcoming way for Jews to connect with Judaism.
Kol tuv,
SalukiFan
P.S. Mazel tov on your daughters intense interest in studying Torah! I agree that that is truly something to shep naches from.
Post by: Guest on October 23, 2005, 11:19:50 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 23, 2005, 01:15:54 PM
Quote from: Antibubba
I'm astounded by the "True Jew" commentary that goes on here.
If I'm this much of a blot on Judaism, I might as well go get Baptized, right?
Not sure which thread you are reading. On this one we are discussing fundamental underpinnings of the different movements. No one has accused anyone of not being a "true Jew" (except maybe Preacherman). If your mother is/was Jewish then you're just as much a "true Jew" as the rest of us here.
If I'm this much of a blot on Judaism, I might as well go get Baptized, right?
Post by: Azrael256 on October 23, 2005, 02:26:31 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 23, 2005, 04:39:27 PM
Maybe they already exist?A. Ethnic or racially Jewish but practice any or no religion
B. Culturally Jewish (celebrates holidays, bar-mitzvahs etc) but practice any or no religion.
C. Religiously Jewish
But then we'd have to have sub -sub categories. How about a Japanese born to Shintoists who converts? He'd be a 'C', but we'd need a 'CA' to distinguish him from someone who was both A and C.
Some Christians (especially around the Balkans lately it seems) seem to have the same difficulty with identification being as much a cultural/race based thing as religious.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 23, 2005, 04:55:16 PM
Quote from: Azrael256
Read this article if you haven't already. It's about why so many Jews support gun control. I think it's accurate, and I'd like to know if others agree.
I think there's a lot to it - and I think you can plug other traditionally hard done by groups of people in America into the (gulp, hate to say it) "slave mentality" of government trust/reliance (a major distinction would be the trust on the government being for very different things, more commonly it's subsistence, but in the case of middle class and wealthy liberals it's physical protection).That said - I think there's a lot to it, but I tend to think the majority of it is simpler - a fairly recent history of being from highly government regulated populations in Europe (eastern especially) and a tendency to bring your politics along with you, combined with 70 or 80 years of conglomeration in places in America that are politically more toward that end of the spectrum anyway, followed by a tendency toward higher education which seems to be another bastion of liberalism in America.
However, and it may just be that I'm more politically aware, I think I've seen some shift in recent politics of Jews being taken for granted as a solid liberal block.
Post by: matis on October 23, 2005, 05:03:14 PM
Im right there with you Antibubba.
________________________________________
Alright, so I'll admit the truth: I feel affection for you, too. Do me something.
Again quote by Salukifan:
Matis,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I doubt that we will ever see eye-to-eye on Jewish issues but I appreciate that you seem to have thought long and hard about your beliefs.
_________________________________________________________
Agreed, Salukifan, we don't see eye-to-eye on this.
Quote by Salukifan:
The actual numbers for the Chassidim were about 2600 after 4 generations, about 350 for the Orthodox, 24 for the Conservative, 13 for the Reform and 5 for the secular Jews but that was pretty good from memory!
___________________________________________________
Actually, I read this in the mid-nineties and lost the magazine. I don't remember which issue or even which year it appeared in.
Years later, I called them and tried to get them to sell me a copy.
The fellow repeatedly promised to send me the copy, but everytime I called, he had a different excuse.
We had talked and I (mistakenly?) told me why I was interested. Either he didn't want to bother -- or -- he didn't want me to get my hands on the article.
Their web-site now says that they are building an archive of past issues, but so far they have very little in it.
So, although I remember higher ones, even with your numbers, the results are, to me, quite grim. The analysis and explanations may or may not have bearing. But to me, the numbers speak for themselves. So we don't agree.
But you wont be able to say that I don't have chutzpah. Because I'm going to ask YOU help me find this article or, perphaps, to share with me YOUR sources. I am not a sociologist and research is not my forte. But I would dearly love to have this material.
Salukifan said:
"I think its a little hasty to condemn non-Orthodox Judaism to the dust-bin. If 50 years from now the Chassidim rule the earth, Ill be impressed ...."
_________________________________________________________
So you admit the possibility that Moshiach is almost here?
Sorry, I just couldn't resist (grin).
This is a concept I myself have trouble with. But it was just too tempting!
Salukifan:
P.S. Mazel tov on your daughters intense interest in studying Torah! I agree that that is truly something to shep naches from.
_________________________________________________________
Thank you. I sure do get naches from her. I get happiness and joy!
matis
Post by: grampster on October 23, 2005, 05:05:19 PM
On my mother's side, her mother and father came from the Vilnius area of Lithuania. However my maternal grandfather was named Schneider and his family was purported to be from Germany. There were many Jews residing in both areas when they were young and for a couple of generations prior. Lots of movement around that part of Europe by Israel due to persecution and pogroms. His photos show him to have semitic features. Pictures of my mother when she was young show her to have very semitic features. Jet black hair, a long aqualine nose. Photo's of my maternal grandmother on the other hand, show her to be very eastern European, even having some asian features. No one of my mother's generation had much to say, let alone know about their past, only that her parents left as a result of the Russian Revolution.
They were Roman Catholics, but many Jews converted to RC to avoid persecution. The Nazi's weren't the only groups of people that murdered significant numbers of Israel and various times since the diaspora.
I think I remember a thread at THR or maybe it was here shortly after APS came up that many of our Jewish members seem to believe that Jewishness is only connected to belonging to some sect or branch of the Jewish faith, and perhaps there is some argument regarding that as well. What about people who don't have a clue as to their background? I am of the opinion that being Jewish has to do with one's roots. In other words, who is to say that I, for example, am not of one of the twelve tribes of Israel? There is much murkiness in the past regarding roots and bloodlines.
I may be a Christian but as such I am told that I have been grafted into the tree of Israel. I believe that. So, as a person of Eastern European descent who may just have been descended from one of the 12 tribes, who is a Christian, but loves Israel as I believe I am adopted into the House of Israel, how can it possibly be that I must be marginalized or rejected by my brothers and sisters.
Post by: matis on October 23, 2005, 05:20:05 PM
Read www.jpfo.org/fear.htm this article if you haven't already. It's about why so many Jews support gun control. I think it's accurate, and I'd like to know if others agree.
__________________________________________________________________
Azrael256,
Thank you so much for posting that. This goes right to the heart of The Rabbi's letter to that Reform group.
It is IMO excellent and completely accurate.
I have been on the email list from JPFO (Jews for the Protection of Firearms Ownership) for a few years now.
I think it's time for me to stop mooching and send them the membership $$. They do excellent work.
Thanks, again.
matis
Post by: matis on October 23, 2005, 05:32:46 PM
" how can it possibly be that I must be marginalized or rejected by my brothers and sisters."
_______________________________________________________________
I'm not sure what you mean, Grampster. Which siblings are you referring to: Christian ones or Jewish ones?
matis
Post by: The Rabbi on October 23, 2005, 05:54:35 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 23, 2005, 06:07:37 PM
Quote
Hmm, I dunno, Grampster. Sounds like you might just be another MOT.
I hope your parents had a little forsight when you were 8 days old A question for you Matis, of the five groups you mentioned, which consider the Torah to be the word of Gd? And do they consider the entire Torah the Word or only the books of Moses?
Post by: matis on October 23, 2005, 07:37:03 PM
A question for you Matis, of the five groups you mentioned, which consider the Torah to be the word of Gd? And do they consider the entire Torah the Word or only the books of Moses?
_____________________________________________________________
The Chassidim and the Orthodox for sure. The secular, by definition don't believe. As for the Reform and even the Conservative, I think it depends on the individual congregation and even congregant.
They may say they consider the Torah to be the word of G-d. But if they pick and choose which commandments to obey (that is if it isn't too inconvenient), how can that be true?
But I'll defer on the rest to The Rabbi.
He is actually Orthodox and knows far more than I do. I am a relative newcomer to all this and know enough only to be dangerous and to make people mad at me (grin).
It's his turn to take flak.
Or perhaps Salukifan will answer. She may be reform, and I don't agree with her take on most of this. But she sure seems to know her Judaism.
matis
Post by: Oleg Volk on October 23, 2005, 08:35:09 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 23, 2005, 08:48:43 PM
Quote from: Oleg Volk
Looks like the only thing scarier to the anti-semites than having Hassidim fill the earth would be cross-breeding them with the Chinese and really upping the numbers in a hurry. I think that was the nightmare for some of the Soviets in the past :-)
That and North Korean Jehovah's Witnesses.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 24, 2005, 09:18:39 AM
Quote from: Stand_watie
A question for you Matis, of the five groups you mentioned, which consider the Torah to be the word of Gd? And do they consider the entire Torah the Word or only the books of Moses?
The "traditional" interpretation is that G-d dictated the first five books to Moses, who wrote them down. But every word came from G-d first. The other books were written by prophets but do not contradict anything written in the first five.The Conservatives seem to profess wonder and ignorance at the process, not really sure that the traditional interpretation is true but not wanting to reject it either.
The Reform maintain that the Bible was "divinely inspired." I am not sure what that means, if anything. They have no problem ascribing inspiration to things like "honor your father and mother" or "Do Not Murder" (at least in principle anyway) but somehow I guess the inspiration conked out in "do not wear shatnez (a mixture of wool and linen)" or "on the Sabbath do no work" and a few hundred others.
The Reconstructuionist I think subscribe to the "inspiration" theory but hold that the commandments are merely "folk ways" and important simply for Jewish identity.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 24, 2005, 09:32:04 AM
Quote from: SalukiFan
Quote from: The Rabbi
Nothing is going to persuade those people. Merely expressing displeasure is about as much as I can get in.
Well Rabbi, if you just wanted to vent and exprees displeasure rather than persuade, you succeeded admirably.Quote from: SalukiFan
Quote from: The Rabbi
I disagree that liberal strains have given Jews something rather than nothing. It is like a person with a bad infection who goes to a witch doctor instead of taking antibiotics. He thinks he is getting treated when in fact his actions make the condition worse. If he did nothing he would at least know he was doing nothing. In any case the difference between Orthodoxy and liberal versions of Judaism has nothing to do with the number of mitzvos performed. More, not all Orthodoxy is hassidism and there is plenty of diversity in the Orthodox camp.
As far as your criticism of my comments and questions to matis:1. Let me see. Didnt we just have a conversation on the theological philosophy thread where you protested that you were hurt and offended that I joked that you wanted everyone to be Orthodox like you? Ah yes, here it is:
Quote from: The Rabbi
I take exception that you think I want you to be Orthodox just like me. That is not so. There are many fine people who are Orthodox not like me and that's fine too.
Have you changed your mind since then or is there a misunderstanding?Quote from: SalukiFan
As a sociologist and a Jew, I am interested in how this mathematical prediction was interpreted. The authors of the study link the successful passing on of Jewish tradition to the number of years children attend Jewish day school rather than Orthodox belief per se. If anything, I consider it more important to use this prediction to impress on parents the need to give their child a thorough Jewish education rather than have conversion to Orthodoxy as the only option for having Jewish grandchildren.
First, one cannot "convert" to Orthodoxy if one is Jewish. This seems to be some kind of canard made up by the Reform or something. If a person is Jewish he/she is Jewish. If he/she wants to practice Orthodoxy there is no ceremony: he/she merely starts practicing.Second, sending Jewish children to Jewish schools is fine and dandy but no substitute for practice in the home. These studies supporting Jewish education are misleading because they are a self-selecting group. People who pracitice Judaism in the home and consider it important are more likely to send their kids to a Jewish day school than those who dont. I know dozens, if not hundreds of kids who went to the day school here and the vast majority do not practice anything and many have intermarried. OTOH my wife grew up in an Orthodox family with very limited Jewish education and all five children are more rigorous in their practice than the parents were.
Quote from: SalukiFan
I have friends and acquaintances from pretty much every Jewish movement. Of them, my Reform friends who are dating, are all dating other Jews. One of my good friends, who is Conservative, just called a couple weeks ago to tell me he was getting married to a nice Jewish girl (Mazel tov Marty!). My friends that attend Chabad arent dating anyone yet, but the hunt for a Jewish husband is getting fierce. I know that this is anecdotal evidence but it seems to me that the common denominator here is that Jews that are religious and active in the Jewish community seek out, date and marry other Jews.
If the Reform or Conservative movements seem to have a lot of intermarriage, I would argue that it is mostly a function of those movements being more welcoming to the High Holy Days only crowd (who usually pull their kids out of religious education right after their bar or bat mitzvah). I think if you looked at the actual observance level rather than affiliation labels, the predicted numbers wouldnt be nearly as grim. One can make dire predictions about the likelihood of an average Jew in a certain movement of having Jewish grandchildren but I disagree that it can definitively say that my more observant Reform friends will have fewer grandchildren than some of the folks I know who call themselves Orthodox but date non-Jews.
As you say, anecdotal evidence is worthless.If the Reform or Conservative movements seem to have a lot of intermarriage, I would argue that it is mostly a function of those movements being more welcoming to the High Holy Days only crowd (who usually pull their kids out of religious education right after their bar or bat mitzvah). I think if you looked at the actual observance level rather than affiliation labels, the predicted numbers wouldnt be nearly as grim. One can make dire predictions about the likelihood of an average Jew in a certain movement of having Jewish grandchildren but I disagree that it can definitively say that my more observant Reform friends will have fewer grandchildren than some of the folks I know who call themselves Orthodox but date non-Jews.
In any given Reform temple you will find that a very large number of the members are intermarried. Among those under 50 probably an absolute majority, depending on where you live. The "High Holiday Only" crowd you posit in fact IS the membership about 90% of the time. The Conservative movement's own figures show that those raised in Conservative families are not likely to be Conservative themselves. Most become Reform and a few become Orthodox. I tend to think there is a similar shift in Reform.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 24, 2005, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
..The Reform maintain that the Bible was "divinely inspired." I am not sure what that means, if anything. They have no problem ascribing inspiration to things like "honor your father and mother" or "Do Not Murder" (at least in principle anyway) but somehow I guess the inspiration conked out in "do not wear shatnez (a mixture of wool and linen)" or "on the Sabbath do no work" and a few hundred others..
Ok. That explains our earlier misunderstanding regarding "inspired". Something quite different in the conservative Christian community.
Post by: Antibubba on October 25, 2005, 12:35:22 AM
We are all Talmudic Jews. The Judaism of the Bible no longer exists-it can't, with no Temple, with no Holy of Holies. Learned men have studied the Torah and tried to interpret it as best they can, but over the centuries what is sacred and what is simply the way it's been done for centuries are considered the same. "Don't boil a kid in the milk of it's mother" now means that dairy and meat cannot be eaten together, or within a certain amount of time of each other, and that every household must have two completely separated sets of dishes and utensils. That's the tradition. Is it what G-d meant, or is it just the result of of Judaism's version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?
The Diaspora is not a punishment. The Diaspora is the point. We were tribes when it was necessary to build an identity. We were in exile in Babylon, and we proved that we could remain a united, distinct people. The Temple was destroyed, the very center of our focus and connection to G-d was obliterated. Our Cohen were still revered, but they had no real purpose. And we adapted. The tribes spread to every corner of the Earth-to Europe, to Africa, to Persia, India, even China. The customs of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi went in different ways, but all remained Jews. Even the followers of Jesus stayed Jews for awhile, until they were co-opted by the Roman Empire. We had proven in Babylon that we were a People, a Nation, even in exile and apart. And everywhere we go we change the conditions. We improve them, by being a light and an example to others. And although we touch every point on the spectrum of politics, devotion, economics, and every aspect of human life, we are driven by Tikkun Olam.
We were stuck, stagnant. We weren't going anywhere. We were afraid to move or lift our heads, for fear that the "Cossacks" would cut us down. the Chasids are Ultra-orthodox now, but they started as a very radical movement. The Reform movement sought to keep those who would not remain shtetlized in the fold still.
Matis, if I could spend many days with you, in conversation, I still could not explain to you fully what it is I'm supposed to do. It's never been done. I barely have the vocabulary for it. In a small way, it's like I was on a Sinai, and I've been shown something. I have great respect for the profound devotion that you and The Rabbi have in your practices and expressions of Judaism. But doesn't make you sad to think that you have more in common with the Evangelicals, who fifty years ago wouldn't have shared a hotel or a table with you, than with other Jews? There are a lot of intermarried in Reform temples and even in Conservative synagauges, but have you noticed that they and their children are there, and not in Church?
Oyy. Time for bed.
Shalom Aleichem.
Post by: matis on October 25, 2005, 07:10:46 AM
Contrary to what the feminists believe, Judaism teaches reverence for women. They are the main-stay of Jewish life. And it doesn't matter who your father was. It is ONLY if your MOTHER was Jewish that you are a Jew.
_______________________________
Quote: Blackburn:
And you know why that is, right?
_______________________________________
My first answer is because Halakhah (Jewish law) says so.
My 2nd: 'cause it's much easier to know who the mother was than who the father was.
My 3rd answer is a question: Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?
Now, what did YOU have in mind?
matis
matis
Post by: Dave Markowitz on October 25, 2005, 08:09:47 AM
Quote from: Antibubba
The Diaspora is not a punishment. The Diaspora is the point. We were tribes when it was necessary to build an identity. We were in exile in Babylon, and we proved that we could remain a united, distinct people. The Temple was destroyed, the very center of our focus and connection to G-d was obliterated. Our Cohen were still revered, but they had no real purpose. And we adapted. The tribes spread to every corner of the Earth-to Europe, to Africa, to Persia, India, even China. The customs of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi went in different ways, but all remained Jews. Even the followers of Jesus stayed Jews for awhile, until they were co-opted by the Roman Empire. We had proven in Babylon that we were a People, a Nation, even in exile and apart. And everywhere we go we change the conditions. We improve them, by being a light and an example to others. And although we touch every point on the spectrum of politics, devotion, economics, and every aspect of human life, we are driven by Tikkun Olam.
AB,This may be the most insightful paragraph I have EVER read online (and I've been online for longer than most folks).
Yiddishe kopf, indeed.
Regards,
Dave, fellow MOT.
Post by: Azrael256 on October 25, 2005, 09:25:49 AM
Quote
Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?
*shudder* Try being 23, finishing up a degree, Microsoft certified, not too horrible looking, and single. Not so bad? Now try going to shul. I go to the late service to avoid the Jewish mothers who keep saying "Oh, you'd love my daughter." Yeah, and I'm sure she's going to become just exactly like you. *shudder*Antibubba, I agree. Good stuff. If you don't mind, I plan to steal it for my systematic theology class tonight.
Post by: SalukiFan on October 25, 2005, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: Azrael256
Try being 23, finishing up a degree, Microsoft certified, not too horrible looking, and single.
[yenta]Wait a minute - you are in Dallas? Listen, I know the perfect girl for you! Twenty-three already and not married? This is a shanda. You've got to let me introduce you to the Berkowitz's girl, you know she's at UPenn right now but she'll be home on break soon - you'll have to meet her...
[/yenta]
Post by: matis on October 25, 2005, 11:58:01 AM
My Jewish beliefs are unorthodox. And while I said before that I might be Reform, I'm not really comfortable there either. I walk a path that Hashem has set for me, and I'm usually the only one on it.
__________________________________________________________________
Antibubba, you and I are the same, both Jews. The connection is there with or without our awareness.
It rose especially in my awareness, however, when in one of your earlier posts, you wrote words to the effect that you would get on the next plane if the enemy were massing on Israel's borders.
That brought tears (they seem to come easier as I get older). I have come to believe that the reason for such an emotionally strong allegiance, to a place where we don't even live (except maybe in our hearts), goes deeper than either of us "know" intellectually. I don't think psychology and sociology alone can explain it.
And I can no longer argue with the "True Jews" (grin) as you allude to them, when they ascribe this to the pintele Yid (basically -- Jewish soul) inside (sometimes buried deep inside) each of us.
Yet, the object of this love, this loyalty -- the Jewish people, can only endure when they can focus on something tangible.
Without that, Jews, especially the brilliant ones, can drift very far afield. Karl Marx was a Jew. So was Trotsky. Many of the Bolsheviks were Jews getting revenge for centuries of brutal persecution. And look at what brutality they spawned.
Peter Singer, the guru of the animal-rights mishiginers (Yiddish for crazies) -- "...a rat, is a pig, is a dog, is a boy"-- is Jewish. Could he have come up with that if he really knew who he was?
The feminist revolution got its re-vitalization in the 60's with the publishing of the book: The Feminine Mystique. Of course the author, Betty Friedan is Jewish. So is Gloria Steinem. So are so many of these women. Many on this forum will argue that much good has been accomplished. Yes. But so has the destruction of the family, the perversion of justice -- and they have let loose the demons that ravage society, today. (Told you I wasn't {too}afraid to die (grin)).
Of course the world also owes much to the Jews, from Einstein on down, in just about every field of endeavor.
Why do we just about "own" physics and why are we at the top of so many other fields?
These same "true Jews" say that the Jewish soul burns like a flame in every Jew. It yearns for G-d. If the Jew forgets who and what he is, then the same un-extinguishable flame drives him in other directions, some of them terrible. Tikkun Olum (to repair the world) yes.
But how exactly?
Judaism is not so much about what one believes and is far more about what one does: the Mitzvahs (Commandments), as interpreted by Talmud, tell Jews what to do. Without the Commandments (613 of 'em), how is one to be a Jew? Eat bagels and Lox? Doesn't last very long (generationally) without teffilin (phylactories).
I remember sitting at my very first Shabbos table (Friday night meal, after synagogue) at the Chabad Rabbi's house.
My reasons for being there is a story that belongs elsewhere. But briefly, I was there because I felt I had to be, not because I wanted to be.
I had to find a way to pull my ex out of the fundamentalist church she had started attending. And where she would surely have soon taken my 3 yr old daughter -- and to get them to return to our city and to me. No offense meant to believing Christians whom I deeply respect, but my kid, a Jew, whose blood, through me and through my father from Warsaw and going all the way back, was NOT going to be lost to us. After 3800 years, I was NOT going to drop the ball!
(Since I mention this, then I should also tell you that my ex is not in any way "bad" in Jewish eyes. She is simply someone who is deeply spiritual, who longed to express this, and who instead had to live for years with a militant atheist (me) who would allow NO religious "nonsense" in the house. She had never experienced real spirituality -- she was brought up Conservative {sorry, folks, but true} and 4 out of 6 siblings became and still are Christians! And she DID experience true spirituality in the Fundamentalist Church -- they certainly do have it. It simply wasn't Jewish. Once I succeeded in luring her to a Chabad Shabbos, she came home and has never looked back.)
I found myself desperate and absolutely determined to "save" my daughter -- for myself -- and so she would know who she is. Her birth, literally, brought me back home.
So there I sat at the table with these people with long beards and funny clothes on. The talk ranged widely and I was polite. I couldn't help noticing that these people went deeper than many in dealing with the topics. Food for my mind! Boy, where were THEY all my life?
But then they began a discussion about exactly what constituted a kosher mezuzza (small prayer-scroll affixed to the doorways in a Jewish home). That was it! I withdrew light-years into myself. I had nothing in common with them, after all.
A kosher mezuzzah must be written on parchment, not paper. Special, India type inks must be used. And so on. The slightest age-crack in a single letter and the mezuzzah was no longer kosher -- it had to be buried with appropriate prayers.
To my secular mind, here was the Jewish version of "...counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin." Not for me!
After a few minutes, though, out of nowhere -- tears (what, again?). Must be losing my mind.
It suddenly hit me. I carried on about Am Israel Chai (the Jewish People Live)! That was my mantra. But what was I actually doing for that? Just thinking thoughts? Or supporting Israel? That's fine but only for the short run.
What had struck me with such force at that Shabbos table was something that I had ridiculed all my life. These people, not me, were doing what was necessary for the Jews to survive.
Ritual, tradition. Was for turkeys, I used to think.
Except, when I listened to their concern for the smallest detail of keeping a mezzuzah kosher (what they gonna do, eat it?), I realized that I was observing the very process that had kept us alive, strangers in a strange land, for nearly 2000 years and for another 1800 years before that.
Taking G-d's word so to heart that one strove, with everything in him, to obey it. That's why we were still here!
Doesn't even matter, whether G-d actually exists (forgive me, The Rabbi). It is this PROCESS, of doing -- that is what keeps us still here.
That was probably (who can really know such things for sure?) the turning point for me. All the fierce pride, and loving and other forms of kvetching in the long run don't cut it.
It is written in the Shema prayer that Jews repeat 3 times a day: AND YOU SHALL TEACH IT TO YOUR CHILDREN. Teach what? Ideas? Concepts?
Of course. But these are, by definition, evanescent, they float in air, are easily, even inadvertently, changed. They can even transmogrify into marxism. They must be anchored to action. Something to do every day and many times in each day.
One reason I love Judaism is because it contains so profound an understanding of human nature (no accident that Freud and the early psychologists were all Jews. Even today their proportion is amazing).
Just knowing and thinking is not enough. One must DO.
Do what? Whatever seems like a good idea at the time?
Well, there are numberless ideas, some very good, some terrible.
To anchor Jews to their G-d -- Torah and tradition tells them exactly what to do.
And thereby they preserve their values and themselves.
I used to think that this created automatons, people afraid to think for themselves.
So how is it that we transmitted a system of concepts and values that undergirds western civilization? Is it because we are automatons that how we rise to the top of every science and so many of the arts (well, maybe not tattoo artistry)?
Life is full of paradox. This is one of the greatest. But maybe not. To be truly free one must first master oneself. One must develope self-discipine.
Judaism requires nothing, if not powerful self-discipline. How many commandments did I mention above? 613! One cannot get out of bed, cannot eat, cannot go to sleep again without appropriate prayers. I used to wonder how such Jews got so much done. Turns out they do all that prayer and ritual -- and get more done than many of us. Connection somewhere?
And does this make them automatons? Actually this is simply a way to remember who provides all that they have. Including themselves. These Jews say that animals eat when they're hungry. People, because of Whose image we were made in, must be more conscious than that. The prayer, actually blessing, keeps us conscious, awake to reality. Sometimes, circumstances or lack of something kosher to eat, puts off eating for awhile. So they learn that just because you feel hungry, doesn't mean you have to eat. Self-control! I now believe that such Jews are so successful in dealing with material reality -- because they have the reality principal itself nailed down.
Instead of automatons they to about their day are MORE conscious than most. Like I said: paradox.
You're concerned about Jewish survival? Then DO SOMETHING!
Do what? Keep the mitzvas (commandments). All 613 of 'em. ('Course it's alright to start with even one or two. Good thing, too, or I'd be in real trouble.) We can't keep the ones that cannot be kept until the Temple stands again? Keep the mitzvahs you can and the time will come when we can keep all 613, again.
Over the LONG HAUL, nothing else works.
That way we'll remember who we are. And who we are not.
We are the people chosen to be a light unto the nations.
We are NOT G-d, himself.
So concentrate on what he commanded us: "Justice, justice you shall do!"
Not Cosmic Justice (see Thomas Sowell's book), where we try to right ALL "wrongs". To the point where we try to turn day into night, women into men; men into women, redistribute wealth (by whose standard?), make everybody equal (that is, beat them down into an equal mediocracy) for the sake of fairness.
When you try to make heaven on earth, as in socialism, you inevitably make hell on earth instead.
Strive for justice; leave cosmic justice to G-d.
Just do the mitzvahs.
quote: Antibubba
Is it what G-d meant, or is it just the result of of Judaism's version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?
________________________________________________
See, I told you, Antibubba? Somewhere in there, we do think alike. We get the same thoughts. Just needs some polishing, for both of us.
Quote:Antibubba
And everywhere we go we change the conditions. We improve them, by being a light and an example to others. And although we touch every point on the spectrum of politics, devotion, economics, and every aspect of human life, we are driven by Tikkun Olam.
_________________________________________________________________
Not everywhere; see above.
Quote: Antibubba
Matis, if I could spend many days with you, in conversation,
_________________________________________________________
Antibubba, I'd absolutely love that!
Antibubba said:
I still could not explain to you fully what it is I'm supposed to do. It's never been done. I barely have the vocabulary for it. In a small way, it's like I was on a Sinai, and I've been shown something.
__________________________________________________________
According to Jewish teaching, Antibubba, you (your soul) WERE at Mt. Sinai "being shown something."
Antibubba said:
I have great respect for the profound devotion that you and The Rabbi have in your practices and expressions of Judaism. But doesn't make you sad to think that you have more in common with the Evangelicals, who fifty years ago wouldn't have shared a hotel or a table with you, than with other Jews?
____________________________________________________________________
Antibubba, some years back, yes.
Now, no. Actually, I love the Evangelicals -- not because they may want to convert me (NO CHANCE), but because they are far more honest than most of us in their devotion to their religion. Their religion originated in and closely resembles Judaism. And therefore they are anchored to the values that raised up mankind from savagery. And they don't just paste their religion on when it suits them. They do their best to live and be true to it. My ex and I home-schooled our daughter. It was believing Christians who paved the way, fought the legal battles, so we could do that.
Now IS NOT 50 years ago. Very many of their number (I call them "believing Christians") not only will share a table or hotel with me; they round up and give millions of $$ to Israel. They support her more than most Jews do.
Many Reform and Conservative Jews are still suspicious of Christians, but support what they consider to be "fairness" toward Muslims. They have NO CLUE what terrible dangers face them (yes, even in America) right now. And it isn't from Christians.
Those who refuse to live in the present are doomed to extinction.
Antibubba said:
There are a lot of intermarried in Reform temples and even in Conservative synagauges, but have you noticed that they and their children are there, and not in Church?
_________________________________________________________
If you think in generational terms, for most of them, Reform and Conservative synagogues are just way-stations on their way out of Judaism. And many of their children and grand-children ARE on their way to church.
Antibubba said:
I have great respect for the profound devotion that you and The Rabbi have in your practices and expressions of Judaism.
___________________________________________________________
I understand what you mean, Antibubba, and I thank you.
But The Rabbi and I differ in one important respect: I express my love for Judaism, but I am, basically, not observant.
The Rabbi expresses his love for Judaism and he IS observant. For me, as I struggle, it's important to remember that kind of difference.
With respect and affection,
Sholem Aleichem,
matis
Post by: Stand_watie on October 25, 2005, 03:36:55 PM
Quote
I had to find a way to pull my ex out of the fundamentalist church she had started attending. And where she would surely have soon taken my 3 yr old daughter -- and to get them to return to our city and to me. No offense meant to believing Christians whom I deeply respect, but my kid, a Jew, whose blood, through me and through my father from Warsaw and going all the way back, was NOT going to be lost to us. After 3800 years, I was NOT going to drop the ball!
(Since I mention this, then I should also tell you that my ex is not in any way "bad" in Jewish eyes. She is simply someone who is deeply spiritual, who longed to express this, and who instead had to live for years with a militant atheist (me) who would allow NO religious "nonsense" in the house. She had never experienced real spirituality -- she was brought up Conservative {sorry, folks, but true} and 4 out of 6 siblings became and still are Christians! And she DID experience true spirituality in the Fundamentalist Church -- they certainly do have it. It simply wasn't Jewish. Once I succeeded in luring her to a Chabad Shabbos, she came home and has never looked back.)
You mean she was brought up "conservative" Jewish or Christian? No reason for Christians to take offense at your feelings, if you didn't believe your way to be the right way, why practice it? (Since I mention this, then I should also tell you that my ex is not in any way "bad" in Jewish eyes. She is simply someone who is deeply spiritual, who longed to express this, and who instead had to live for years with a militant atheist (me) who would allow NO religious "nonsense" in the house. She had never experienced real spirituality -- she was brought up Conservative {sorry, folks, but true} and 4 out of 6 siblings became and still are Christians! And she DID experience true spirituality in the Fundamentalist Church -- they certainly do have it. It simply wasn't Jewish. Once I succeeded in luring her to a Chabad Shabbos, she came home and has never looked back.)
Quote
Now, no. Actually, I love the Evangelicals -- not because they may want to convert me (NO CHANCE), but because they are far more honest than most of us in their devotion to their religion. Their religion originated in and closely resembles Judaism. And therefore they are anchored to the values that raised up mankind from savagery. And they don't just paste their religion on when it suits them. They do their best to live and be true to it. My ex and I home-schooled our daughter. It was believing Christians who paved the way, fought the legal battles, so we could do that. Now IS NOT 50 years ago. Very many of their number (I call them "believing Christians") not only will share a table or hotel with me; they round up and give millions of $$ to Israel. They support her more than most Jews do.
Here you sound a bit like a talk show host I occasionally enjoy listening too, Dennis Prager (I have no idea what his sect is or if he's even religious).You mention religious honesty, I'll tell you one that has always bugged me. I have no idea which Jewish movements support this notion, or if it's entirely a Hollywood fiction by secular folks, but I've heard a lot of backhanded apologies for the killing of Christ. A lot of people that say good things about him, when he obviously was either G-d, a false prophet, or a lunatic. To me any admission that the killing of Christ was wrong should be anathema to anyone who believes
a) Christ wasn't G-d.
b) The Old Testament commandments were binding on the Jewish community of Christ's era.
To me, that's the crux of the difference between modern Judaism and orthodox Christianity. Do you believe he's G-d or not? If he is, they were wrong. If not, they were right. Why go for half measures? Of course the 1500 or so years of Christians persecuting Jews (apparently missing the point that the few thousand Jews and few hundred Romans who participated in killing Christ are merely the annointed delegates who represented all humanity of all time, of all races and religions) may have created a reluctance for people to speak their minds regarding what they truly believe.
Quote
Do what? Keep the mitzvas (commandments). All 613 of 'em. ('Course it's alright to start with even one or two. Good thing, too, or I'd be in real trouble.) We can't keep the ones that cannot be kept until the Temple stands again? Keep the mitzvahs you can and the time will come when we can keep all 613, again.
My choice for the two verses that best encapsulate the Old Testament (I think I had this for a signature here for a while)Ecclesiastes 12
'13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil'
Post by: matis on October 25, 2005, 06:25:07 PM
You mean she was brought up "conservative" Jewish or Christian? No reason for Christians to take offense at your feelings, if you didn't believe your way to be the right way, why practice it?
___________________________________________________________________
She was brought up in the Conservative synagogue, which is named backwards. They're actually very liberal. They're called Conservative only because they arose in reaction to the Reform who were and are even more so.
Stand_Watie said:
I've heard a lot of backhanded apologies for the killing of Christ. A lot of people that say good things about him, when he obviously was either G-d, a false prophet, or a lunatic. To me any admission that the killing of Christ was wrong should be anathema to anyone who believes.
__________________________________________________________
AFAIC you're absolutely correct. However one interprets the killing of Christ, the Jews have been blamed and murdered for this for so long that they're afraid to deal with it. At least all but the Orthodox and Chassidim are. The rest seem to have bought into their own protective PR.
I'm not saying that it's necessary to throw this difference in the face of Christians. G-d knows we need each other as allies. It's better to emphasize what unites us and that's a whole lot.
When, as the Orthodox Jews believe, Moshiach (Messiah) will come, all the world will know G-d. If the Christians are right and He's already been here and He's coming back, so what? The Christians also say we'll all know G-d. Either way, when the real McCoy comes, who will want to argue with him?
Stand_Watie said:
My choice for the two verses that best encapsulate the Old Testament (I think I had this for a signature here for a while)
Ecclesiastes 12
'13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil'
__________________________________________________________
Yes, absolutely, But this is exceedly difficult for the secular mind to accept.
We dismiss G-d as myth, which inevitably means that we put ourselves in his place. Even I, who's mind is still basically secular -- I must devise ways to work around that. I am coming very slowly around. But it's not easy. I used to say it was murder. Not anymore. It gets easier. Or maybe it's a necessary killing. I am slowly with lots of sweat, but thankfully no blood, killing the prisoner (but only him -- not me) of the Galut.
The secular mind thinks that because we have made such huge and wonderful strides in coming to understand reality -- it therefore thinks it can go all the way.
Philosophically this is impossible. That is the same as saying that our minds are equal to G-d's (if he had one). Or saying the same thing in a secular sense: there is no way that the mind of man, who finds himself embedded in reality, can ever understand the totality of that reality.
How can a mind, which is by definition junior to the reality it tries to understand,
ever transcend its own junior status -- its own limitations to do so. How can we see our eyeballs with our own eyeballs? We can with a mirror. But mirrors always add distortions, don't they?
We study the mind and we know a little about it. In a prior life-time I practised psychotherapy. So I know a little of what I'm saying when I say that most of psychology is nonsense. It changes with the seasons and with the latest fads. The soft "sciences" have an inferiority complex with respect to the hard, so they simulate scientific method. Occasionally, it's even honest. You want to really know your mind; what you are? Study Torah. It's all there.
But we do really know enough to say that the mind picks and chooses from the data coming in. And it inevitably distorts whatever is "really" out there. Go back to Abraham Maslow (gee, another Jew) and read his TOWARD A PSYCHOLOGY OF BEING for one description of this.
Heisenberg in his uncertainty principal showed that the act of observing phenomena, changes them. That is only my crude attempt to say what he discovered, but perhaps it will serve here.
So with an intrument like that, we can literally soar to the stars. The secular, scientific mind is incredibly powerful!
But ultimately, the instrument falls short; we're not equipped to solve the riddle of existence. That is (I hope) not a religious statement. It's just simple logic.
This is the kind of thing I'm forced to do to work around my own secular consciousness, while still remaining honest. Perhaps someday I will have internalized this well enough to remove my barriers to "knowing" G-d.
A while back, when I was still arguing for the secular position, I told the believing Christian involved that I couldn't believe because logic prevented that.
His answer puzzled me. He said my problem was not intellectual, but one of will, of arrogance. that I was simply REFUSING to obey G-d. I couldn't understand then, why he would say that. Now I do. But I still have tons of intellectual underbrush to clear away. See, this is too important a subject to cheat on.
In the meantime I can love Judaism, treasure my heritage and defend my people. And, although one must be ever alert, I've made more progress in ensuring that my child will "teach it to her children" than I would ever have thought possible for someone like me. And I can continue to live up to the name G-d gave Jacob and the Jews: Israel, one who struggles with G-d.
matis
P.S. thank you very much for the compliment, Stand_Watie.
Post by: Antibubba on October 26, 2005, 06:38:09 AM
Thank you for your comments. Can you elaborate on why you find it so profound? I mean, I do too (I don't mean that in an arrogant way, it's just I don't run into a lot of people who understand the idea, and it's taken me a long time to get there), but yours insights would be appreciated.
Matis,
I understand where you stand on the Evangelicals. I have quite a few devout christians among my friends. Their faith is sincere, and they do want what is best for me-which, to their way of thinking would be the accepting of Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. But they don't press the point. Your Evangelical friends might not push you, but they pray for your soul. I know a lot of Christians who care about Israel: Israel the home of Jesus, Israel the enemy of the Mohammedians, Israel as a land of freedom, and Israel as the home of their ancestral roots. But the core of their generosity to Israel, ultimately, is the fullfillment of the prophesies in the Book of Revelations, where the faithful are taken to heaven, and the rest of us who choose the side of Good must ulimately embrace Jesus the Christ to defeat the Antichrist. There are Christians who are raising money to start a rebuilding of the Temple, because a new Temple is part of their prophesies, not because it would be a light and benefit to Jews.
Moslems, at least, are honest in their hopes of our destruction. What is the saying? Don't feed me s**t and tell me it's filet mignon.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 26, 2005, 06:48:27 AM
Quote
We dismiss G-d as myth, which inevitably means that we put ourselves in his place. Even I, who's mind is still basically secular -- I must devise ways to work around that. I am coming very slowly around. But it's not easy. I used to say it was murder. Not anymore. It gets easier. Or maybe it's a necessary killing. I am slowly with lots of sweat, but thankfully no blood, killing the prisoner (but only him -- not me) of the Galut.
You're welcome for the compliment, but it wasn't just a compliment, it was a genuine suggestion. If you put a lot of work into something you should try to save it, and I think the work you're putting in is both worthwhile and publishable. I don't say just as Joe Shmoe, but as a lifetime heavy reader, a lot of the reading religious (My dad's a writer). If you do decide to try to publish and want to make contacts in the Christian writing community PM me. Your spiritual awakening reminds me of an allegorical awakening chronicled by Lewis in one of the 'Narnia' books.
http://www.victorianweb.org/courses/fiction/65/lewis/paisid3.html
Quote
How can a mind, which is by definition junior to the reality it tries to understand,
ever transcend its own junior status -- its own limitations to do so. How can we see our eyeballs with our own eyeballs? We can with a mirror. But mirrors always add distortions, don't they?
And this a verse written by at the very least, (depending on your religion) a particularly well schooled Hebrewever transcend its own junior status -- its own limitations to do so. How can we see our eyeballs with our own eyeballs? We can with a mirror. But mirrors always add distortions, don't they?
1 Corinthians 13
'Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.'
Post by: grampster on October 26, 2005, 09:13:53 AM
I think this statement does more to unify Jews and Christians, take some of the argument away if you will, if, when the Messiah returns, the Jews as well as Christians realize who He is at that point. I am probably not being as clear as I would like.
"So what". That is sort of the key to the unification that we could enjoy at the moment. As a Christian I need to live my faith based on what I believe while I'm alive, to the best of my ability, which is not good enough, but I am justified by Jesus. As a Jew, you need to do the same, but justification by the Messiah comes later, as ...All Israel will be saved." So perhaps we should not be arguing about Messiah, Christian and Jew, but joining together to live our lives spritually as best we can, together knowing that the future is not bleak at all.
I'm thinking Christian Scripture support my comments above. "No one comes to the Father except through Me" He did not say WHEN, only that it was necessary. "...With the Father all things are possible." In other words the "Stiff Necked people" have allowed the gentile to be grafted into Israel because of their Christian faith. The rejection of Jesus as Messiah by Israel allows this. But when He returns, Israel will see Him to be Messiah. That time has come, at that point. The time that passed had to be in order for the prophecies regarding gentiles be able to come to fruition. (Remember with God, time has no particular value, other than to His creation, as He exists outside of it) Christians, perhaps should be grateful for this, if it is so. It seems to me to be more important at that point in time (end time) anyway. It also occurs to me that Christian New Testament Scripture claims "...All Israel will be saved."
Rats, I'm really not that good at expressing esoteric comments regarding faith. Wish I was better able...and I'm not questioning anyones belief system, only thinking out loud based on what you said in an earlier post. Quite a thing to think about, actually.
Post by: Dave Markowitz on October 26, 2005, 10:54:22 AM
Quote
Thank you for your comments. Can you elaborate on why you find it so profound? I mean, I do too (I don't mean that in an arrogant way, it's just I don't run into a lot of people who understand the idea, and it's taken me a long time to get there), but yours insights would be appreciated.
AB, IMO you made a very astute observation. I get the feeling that most Jews look on the Diaspora as a Bad Thing. "Next year in Jerusalem," and all that. But there's no way that Jew can be a light unto the nations if we're all cooped up in Israel.Quote
Loosely paraphrased, you said Jews are yet waiting for the Messiah, and Christians believe He has been here already, but will return.
grampster, I think this points out a major difference in Jewish and Christian theology. Whereas the Christian concept of the Messiah is based on eternal salvation of the soul from Original Sin (IOW, in the hereafter), the Jewish concept of the Messiah is of the one who will establish the Kingdom of G-d on Earth (IOW, in the here and now). Especially since "Original Sin" is a concept alien to Judaism.
Post by: grampster on October 26, 2005, 06:35:04 PM
But the Christian also believes in a 1000 year period on earth when Messiah has returned. Could this not mitigate the differences in some way? Might there not be a parallel here?
Post by: matis on October 26, 2005, 09:07:17 PM
Matis,
I understand where you stand on the Evangelicals. I have quite a few devout christians among my friends. Their faith is sincere, and they do want what is best for me-which, to their way of thinking would be the accepting of Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. But they don't press the point. Your Evangelical friends might not push you, but they pray for your soul. I know a lot of Christians who care about Israel: Israel the home of Jesus, Israel the enemy of the Mohammedians, Israel as a land of freedom, and Israel as the home of their ancestral roots. But the core of their generosity to Israel, ultimately, is the fullfillment of the prophesies in the Book of Revelations, where the faithful are taken to heaven, and the rest of us who choose the side of Good must ulimately embrace Jesus the Christ to defeat the Antichrist. There are Christians who are raising money to start a rebuilding of the Temple, because a new Temple is part of their prophesies, not because it would be a light and benefit to Jews.
Moslems, at least, are honest in their hopes of our destruction. What is the saying? Don't feed me s**t and tell me it's filet mignon.
__________________________________________________________
Antibubba, You might want to consider "not looking a gift horse in the mouth".
And, I'm sorry, but the Muslims' "honesty" does not comfort me at all.
Antibubba, I understand completely your bitterness about the Christians. Not so long ago really, I might have expressed that even worse.
But you said that the Evangelicals want what's best for you; they just see that as being Jesus. That's true. But why not accept the first, the "best" part and leave the rest? We can't have everything in life, you know?
In the past they killed us over our rejection of Christ; now they pray for us to accept Him.
Can't you see the difference?
Personally, I accept the friendship and no longer worry about the rest. Only when I see them proselyting Jews, do I draw the line. I have learned to take care of myself and I stop that very quickly. In a firm but friendly fashion to start with. if they persist, I become, let us say, "less friendly". But I stop it.
OTOH, I have actually intervened, butted in(!), when I saw a minister working on a woman outside a restaurent I had just left. I began working on her myself, 'cause I though he was bungling it. I actually managed to engage her.
I have realized that America desperately needs Christianity. As it rids itself of Christianity, that's how fast it descends into a hollow mockery of what it once was.
Do you think we could convert many people to Judaism?
But I have found that as my attitude toward Christians softened, I encountered fewer Christians who pushed on me.
My whole point here is that as I see it we face two very serious threats: the first is the gathering strength of the nihilists of all stripes who hate our Judeo-Christian civilization and are rapidly destroying it. Please don't underestimate this threat -- if we can not turn it around, our society will surely collapse. Then we won't have to imagine the SHTF scenarios mentioned so often on the gun boards.
The second is the threat from the new Muslim jihad. Yesterday, the new Premier (Pres?) of Iran said that the Muslims must wipe Israel from the map. And he threatened other Muslim leaders and their nations, saying that any Muslim who recognizes Israel is an enemy of Islam. He pointed to Egypt and Jordan as examples. You think he's joking? Was Hitler joking in Mein Campf? And this is nothing new.
I'm sure you know that Iran is almost ready with nuclear warheads and the missiles to deliver them. Russia and the Arab nations will block the Security Council from sanctioning Iran, which probably wouldn't stop her, anyway. Russia, China, Pakistan, even North Korea sell Iran what they need for this purpose.
There are over 1.2 billion muslims and over 200 million Arabs in 22 countries surrounding Israel. Worse, there are 20 million Muslims now in Europe and millions in the United States. I'm not saying all of them, but SOME of them are ALREADY collecting information on Jewish organizations, Synogues and on individual Jews. Some have already been caught taking photos. Not that they're uninterested in "gentile" American infrastructure.
Most Americans won't look at the truth of what is coming down on us. Neither do most American Jews. But it's coming, be certain of that. The WTC was only a beginning. Actually it began considerably before that.
First the Saturday people and then the Sunday people, say these fanatic murderers.
What will it take for us to wake up?
Stop dwelling on the past, terrible as it was, and face what's coming now.
The Christian religion is derived from Judasim. Their values are close enough to ours to put us on the same side.
Don't worry about the differences in theology. There is enough similar that we can become allies to face this new darkness coming down upon us.
The believing Christians need the Jews to help them fight both the internal and the external threats. But we need them more!
The Arabs kill Israelis constantly, blew up 5 more today in Hadera. And "wounded" thirty. "Wounded" is a euphemism for "blew their arms and legs off" -- mutilated them.
Meanwhile the believing Christians send love, money and they come visit Isreal themselves, while most Jews are afraid to risk it. And you refuse to get over your bitterness about past sins?
And you prefer the Muslims' honesty over the Evangelicals' hope for us to accept Jesus -- AFTER he returns if we won't do it sooner?
With all due respect, Antibubba -- that's nuts!
I think Jews should NEVER forget what they suffered at the hands of Christians for almost 2000 years. And we should understand that we could face that again from them. I'm not saying to play the fool or wear rose-colored glasses.
But the people who are good to us now, are not the ones who hurt us before. I used to yell at the Frenchies who called me "dirty Jew" and "Christ killer", when I was a kid, "I wasn't there and I didn't do it, schmuck."
Could it be you who is maybe being a bit of a schmuck, now?
Just because European Jewry buried their heads in the sand and refused to see the storm clouds, doesn't mean we have to. And that includes the rest of the Americans
matis
Post by: Stand_watie on October 26, 2005, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
..
Also, any so-called Christians who do not follow, for example, basic laws of feasts or kashrut, but instead adopt pagan feast days are clearly in error. I do so enjoy tormenting protestants with this fact and those related to it.)
Any gentile Christians who are "tormented" by your claims need to read Acts 10, 15, 21 and 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 and quit worrying about it.
Also, any so-called Christians who do not follow, for example, basic laws of feasts or kashrut, but instead adopt pagan feast days are clearly in error. I do so enjoy tormenting protestants with this fact and those related to it.)
Post by: Stand_watie on October 26, 2005, 09:25:45 PM
Quote from: matis
But the people who are good to us now, are not the ones who hurt us before. I used to yell at the Frenchies who called me "dirty Jew" and "Christ killer", when I was a kid, "I wasn't there and I didn't do it, schmuck."
I saw your comment about being originally from Canada and having faced anti-semitism there and didn't know what to make of it when I read it on THR. Now I know what you're talking about, yeah some Canadi'ens are known for that. I lived in Maine for 6 years as a kid, and the irony of that is that in Maine the French are the butt of the majority of the racism.*Note, if it makes quoting any easier for you, if you type the word "quote" in brackets directly preceding the quotation followed by slashquote in brackets directly after the quotation the messageboard will automatically put it in a box for you
example
[kwote]spell quote correctly instead of phonetically to achieve proper result[/kwote]
and if you put an = symbol followed by the name of the person you are quoting after the first quote (still within the brackets) it will give the name of who you are quoting
[kwote=The Queen Mum]spell quote correctly instead of phonetically to achieve proper result[/kwote]
Quote from: The Queen Mum
spell quote correctly instead of phonetically to achieve proper result
Post by: matis on October 26, 2005, 09:34:56 PM
If you put a lot of work into something you should try to save it, and I think the work you're putting in is both worthwhile and publishable. I don't say just as Joe Shmoe, but as a lifetime heavy reader, a lot of the reading religious (My dad's a writer). If you do decide to try to publish and want to make contacts in the Christian writing community PM me.
__________________________________________________________
Thank you, again. When I post about Israel or about Judaism I DO now save the writing in a folder in Word. I have thought about publishing, but have no experience with that. When the time comes I think it would be appropriate to seek a Jewish or a non-religious publisher. But if your offer stands, I would sure like to communicate for advice and support.
By Stand_Watie:
Your spiritual awakening reminds me of an allegorical awakening chronicled by Lewis in one of the 'Narnia' books.
___________________________________________________________
I clicked on your URL and I see why you suggested it. I have never read C.S. Lewis, but his SCREW TAPE LETTERS sits on my shelf. I might just pick it up
I have read only a little in the New Testament, but when I read your quote from Corinthians, I recognized it twice. Once because I had seen it before. And once because the parts you bolded -- reverberated.
The theology may be different, but the experience is the same. I am moved listening to Ave Maria and St Matthew's Passion. Does that leave me open to conversion? Of course not. Anyone of any religion can hear the cry for transcendence and the joy these composers communicate -- if he would. I heard it plainly even as a militant atheist (grin). I just wouldn't deal with that then and of course, I had to denigrate the idea (not the music).
It is good to be "heard" by someone Stand_Watie (you).
Thank you,
matis
Post by: matis on October 26, 2005, 10:30:53 PM
Quote from: grampster
I think this statement does more to unify Jews and Christians, take some of the argument away if you will, if, when the Messiah returns, the Jews as well as Christians realize who He is at that point. I am probably not being as clear as I would like.
"So what". That is sort of the key to the unification that we could enjoy at the moment. As a Christian I need to live my faith based on what I believe while I'm alive, to the best of my ability, which is not good enough, but I am justified by Jesus. As a Jew, you need to do the same, but justification by the Messiah comes later, as ...All Israel will be saved." So perhaps we should not be arguing about Messiah, Christian and Jew, but joining together to live our lives spritually as best we can, together knowing that the future is not bleak at all.
grampster,"So what". That is sort of the key to the unification that we could enjoy at the moment. As a Christian I need to live my faith based on what I believe while I'm alive, to the best of my ability, which is not good enough, but I am justified by Jesus. As a Jew, you need to do the same, but justification by the Messiah comes later, as ...All Israel will be saved." So perhaps we should not be arguing about Messiah, Christian and Jew, but joining together to live our lives spritually as best we can, together knowing that the future is not bleak at all.
I welcome the idea of uniting with the Christians as allies to handle what faces us. And to be friends.
But I'm not sure what you mean By "unification".
I don't mean to find a way to "blend" us, the way the Reform and Conservative Rabbis seem to try when they have "ecumenical" meetings with ministers.
The Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah are NOT the same at all. The concept or category of Messiah is the same; you got that from us. But your Messiah is different.
The Jewish Messiah will be a man, not a G-d. The Christians have changed the idea of what a Messiah is in ways that are completely un-acceptable to Jews.
No Jew can ever accept Jesus. When I said, "so what", I meant that, to the extent I can accept the idea of a Messiah at all -- I am a work in progress, don't forget -- I expect Moshiach, the Jewish Messiah. I could never believe in any other.
And you believe that Jesus, the son of G-d, is the Messiah and that he will come again.
So, again we have 3 possibilities: 1) When Messiah comes he will be the Jewish one and you guys will have to accept that and "know G-d", who is Hashem.
2) When Messiah comes he will be Jesus and you guys were right. So we'll have to accept that. Who's going to argue with G-d, face-to-face, whoever he turns out to be? So all will know G-d, the Christian version.
Or 3) The idea is from mythology and we're all "waiting for Godot".
That's what I meant when I said, "so what?"
You want to "take away some of the argument?" I want to do that, too.
But we must meet as equals who respect each other's differences. If you hope that I'll some day believe in Jesus, I'd rather that you didn't. But I can live with it, if you don't push it on me.
You wouldn't want me to try to pull you away from Christianity to my "truer" religion, would you? So let us live and let live -- and be friends.
So you see, those who called the Jews a "stiff-necked people' weren't kidding, were they?
While we're waiting, there is a tough job to get done. And we need each other to do it.
In friendship,
matis
Post by: matis on October 26, 2005, 10:57:01 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia. Arbitrarily choosing one gender or another to determine or deny the state of belonging to an ethno-religious group is a manmade concept.
Yes Blackburn, I've read that, too.But that was in Biblical times -- kind of a long time ago.
My main concern is Jewish continuity, Jewish survival.
We've survived thousands of years since Zipporah and the others you mention.
What contributed to that survival for most of that time, especially in the later period, was matrilineal descent.
So I'll stick with that and leave the kind of points you make above to Hallachic experts. Which I am not, nor are you.
Quote from: Blackburn
I do so enjoy tormenting protestants with this fact and those related to it. Ishtar Sunday is an especial favorite of mine. (I say this from a position of logical observation, not participation)
Yep, I used to enjoy beating goyim at religious arguments, too.Until I realized that I was indulging myself and achieving no good purpose. What's the matter, there isn't enough anti-Semitism around so that you have to go stir up more?
Maybe you should cut them and yourself some slack, Blackburn and figure out something constructive to do?
Sorry to be so blunt, Blackburn, but what you wrote bugs me.
matis
Post by: matis on October 26, 2005, 11:01:46 PM
Quote from: Stand_watie
*Note, if it makes quoting any easier for you, if you type the word "quote" in brackets directly preceding the quotation followed by slashquote in brackets directly after the quotation the messageboard will automatically put it in a box for you
Hey Stand-Watie, it works!!matis
Post by: Stand_watie on October 26, 2005, 11:34:15 PM
Quote from: matis
Quote from: Blackburn
In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia. Arbitrarily choosing one gender or another to determine or deny the state of belonging to an ethno-religious group is a manmade concept.
Yes Blackburn, I've read that, too...Post by: Stand_watie on October 27, 2005, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
...shattered by someone intelligently criticizing something for which they have no independantly created defense, go and perform pagan rituals in a storm drain. I do find splinters around my (stealth concrete filled) mailbox from time to time.
It is sad that such a poor criticism would cause upset to supposed Christians. You'd expect that people who call themselves such would know the basic tenets of their own faith.
Post by: Dave Markowitz on October 27, 2005, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: grampster
David,
But the Christian also believes in a 1000 year period on earth when Messiah has returned. Could this not mitigate the differences in some way? Might there not be a parallel here?
It's only a partial parallel. As has been pointed out, the Christian concept of the Messiah incorporates the belief that he is G-d. The Jewish Messiah, OTH, is a man.
But the Christian also believes in a 1000 year period on earth when Messiah has returned. Could this not mitigate the differences in some way? Might there not be a parallel here?
Post by: The Rabbi on October 27, 2005, 05:09:13 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
Quote from: matis
Quote: me
Contrary to what the feminists believe, Judaism teaches reverence for women. They are the main-stay of Jewish life. And it doesn't matter who your father was. It is ONLY if your MOTHER was Jewish that you are a Jew.
_______________________________
Quote: Blackburn:
And you know why that is, right?
_______________________________________
My first answer is because Halakhah (Jewish law) says so.
My 2nd: 'cause it's much easier to know who the mother was than who the father was.
My 3rd answer is a question: Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?
Now, what did YOU have in mind?
matis
matis
In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia. Arbitrarily choosing one gender or another to determine or deny the state of belonging to an ethno-religious group is a manmade concept. Contrary to what the feminists believe, Judaism teaches reverence for women. They are the main-stay of Jewish life. And it doesn't matter who your father was. It is ONLY if your MOTHER was Jewish that you are a Jew.
_______________________________
Quote: Blackburn:
And you know why that is, right?
_______________________________________
My first answer is because Halakhah (Jewish law) says so.
My 2nd: 'cause it's much easier to know who the mother was than who the father was.
My 3rd answer is a question: Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?
Now, what did YOU have in mind?
matis
matis
Post by: grampster on October 27, 2005, 08:25:16 AM
) I respect both of you and your beliefs. My way of proseletyzing is not with words, but with deeds. I'll never, I hope, argue gnats or even bigger critters. I only really seek knowledge from my fellow friends who are of The Chosen. I hope I live my life in such a fashion that I can hope to be "a lamp" and others would wonder why I'm so content and joyful. I fully believe we worship the same God; I AM THAT I AM. I truly love Israel and consider myself a step child of Israel. For if Israel did not exist, imho, there would be no hope for me, or anyone, for that matter. That is not to say that my hope is in Israel, rather it is in Christ and Israel is chosen of God.
In friendship,
grampster
Post by: Dave Markowitz on October 27, 2005, 09:19:57 AM
Just so you know, I haven't seen you post anything that I could remotely find offensive. AAMOF, this thread is a GREAT example of several people who have different religious beliefs having a civil discussion.
Carry on.
Post by: grampster on October 27, 2005, 10:15:25 AM
Perhaps "unification" is not a particularly proper word, as those who are the chosen and those who have been grafted in, perhaps do not need unification. We may, rather, be different parts of the whole body. Each has it's own defined function and responsibility, but at the end of the day, each part supports the whole.
Much has been said about this in previous posts, with respect to how most Christians today stand with Israel. The past is the past and is valuable as a document of what has been. We have today, and no guarantee of tomorrow, so for today let us rejoice.
See oh Israel, the day the Lord has made. Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is One. Blessed art thou oh Lord our God, who brings forth food from the Earth.
That is how I start each of my days.
Post by: matis on October 27, 2005, 02:34:12 PM
Quote from: Stand_watie
I came across several reviews of 'Hitler's Jews' while looking up that particular issue, and since you've both read it, do you recommend or disrecommend it?
Stand_watie, I have come across material similar to what Blackburn wrote, but I haven't read, Hitler's Jews.matis
Post by: matis on October 27, 2005, 02:36:16 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
All correct except for one thing- I'm not Jewish.
Sorry, Blackburn. I apologize for my mistaken assumption and for grumping at you.matis
Post by: matis on October 27, 2005, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: Dave Markowitz
Hey grampster,
Just so you know, I haven't seen you post anything that I could remotely find offensive. AAMOF, this thread is a GREAT example of several people who have different religious beliefs having a civil discussion.
Grampster, I agree with Dave. Same goes for me. I'm fine with you.Just so you know, I haven't seen you post anything that I could remotely find offensive. AAMOF, this thread is a GREAT example of several people who have different religious beliefs having a civil discussion.
matis
Post by: Stand_watie on October 27, 2005, 04:00:37 PM
Quote from: matis
Quote from: Stand_watie
I came across several reviews of 'Hitler's Jews' while looking up that particular issue, and since you've both read it, do you recommend or disrecommend it?
Stand_watie, I have come across material similar to what Blackburn wrote, but I haven't read, Hitler's Jews.matis
Quote
In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia
http://www.wnyc.org/books/968
Post by: The Rabbi on October 27, 2005, 05:03:26 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 27, 2005, 05:44:05 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
I respect and enthusiastically accept as a friend anyone who claims a religion and works to ensure that they follow it. I mean, if they genuinely believe it's the difference between an afterlife or hell, you'd expect them to do their damndest to be doing everything right.
Pardon me if I won't lose any sleep over your claim that I have to convert to Judaism to be a Christian.Your confusions is understandable I suppose, as so many Christians themselves are confused, or perhaps I should say 'cultural Christians'. Do you have a reputable theological source for claiming that Christians are required to follow the Mosaic covenant or are you just repeating "Christians" who haven't even bothered to read their own Testament?
Post by: Stand_watie on October 27, 2005, 07:28:15 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
Cliff's notes: Paul taught people to keep the feasts and follow 'torah'. When he was accused of teaching people to abandon 'torah', he said that the claims were false. So, who was lying- Paul or his accusers?
No Cliff notes neccessary. I cited Paul above in regards to the matter. Your source is twisting the reference. James was quoting unnamed accusers when he said that Paul had been accused of teaching Jews to abandon Torah. The issue had already been covered previously at the council of Jerusalem. The very same passage lays out entirely different guidelines for gentiles which Paul goes even further to disavow in future teachings.
If you want to inform yourself on Christian theology, you might try Paul himself, rather than wherever your getting your misinformation. Here's a few starter passages from Paul that distinguish between law of the Mosaic covenant and that of the Christian covenant.
****
A note to my Jewish friends on the forum, below are the words of the apostle Paul - I post them not to start a debate over whether Christianity or Judaism is correct, but to correct Mr. Blackburn's misunderstanding that I have to be circumcised and eat kosher to be a "Christian"
***
Galations 5
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Romans 14
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. ..14[/b]As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
1 Timothy 4
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1 Corinthians 10
23"Everything is permissible"but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[c] 27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d] 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
Colosians 2
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. One in Christ 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit
Romans 3
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 27, 2005, 08:02:43 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
Actually, that looks very well put. I can now start taking that to the Messianics. :$ Thank you.
You're welcome. Keep in mind though that I don't claim to know what's right for other people (particularly those born Jewish). Also keep in mind the religious issue that was formost to Paul was proseletizing for others to accept his faith, not to reject their own religious rituals (at least those he didn't object to, obviously he wanted the gentiles of the day to stop their religious rituals of fornicating with temple priestesses). Paul never claimed there was anything wrong with following what he believed was the Mosaic covenant as well as faith in the Christian covenant.If I were eating with Messianics or Orthodox Jews I would eat Kosher. For that matter if I were eating with Muslims I'd eat Halal. Paul was clear that my freedom to eat what I please isn't a freedom that I can use to cause a spiritual impediment to my brothers. American 'fundamentalists' are much the same way about alcohol, and I don't drink around those of them who I think it will offend either.
Post by: Guest on October 28, 2005, 12:25:17 AM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 28, 2005, 01:01:47 AM
Quote from: Barbara
What was Jesus' position on keeping Jewish law?
I don't know if he addressed the issue of Jewish law regarding gentiles. He was a practicing Jew himself, and it's my opinion that he kept both the letter of Mosaic covenant and the spirit of new covenant.Mark 2
23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath
Matthew 15
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " 12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" 13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
Luke 11
37When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.
39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish [j] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
Post by: richyoung on October 28, 2005, 04:34:10 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 28, 2005, 04:35:44 AM
Quote
I don't know if he addressed the issue of Jewish law regarding gentiles. He was a practicing Jew himself, and it's my opinion that he kept both the letter of Mosaic covenant and the spirit of new covenant.
Your citations do not seem to support your contention here.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 28, 2005, 05:07:24 AM
Rich, thanks but I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything in particular there but cite some fairly basic orthodox (again "traditional" rather than the sect) Christian doctrine/passages. If my citation seems particularly apt it is (sadly) more a statement of the uneducation of Christians in general rather than any cleverness on my part or even a good education (every one of those passages I had to google by keyword to remember specifically where they were found). A couple good resources in that regard are
http://bible.gospelcom.net/
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm
The Hebrew translation is particularly good, because if you are a Christian English only speaker you can find a particular word and have the resources of the best Hebrew speaking Jewish and Christian scholars in the world to help you figure out nuances that are missed in translation - downloading the language-pak is well worth the drive space.
Blackburn, I spent a little while looking around the web this morning after my last post, for a better, more easily understandable explanation than I gave you - more than just a list of citations - and I found a really decent article. This hashes out the council of Jerusalem and the particulars of the debate on exactly the subject we are discussing now between Paul and some of the other early Christians. I hope you'll use it to expand your own understanding, and not to discomfit people who don't believe exactly the way I do.
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1347
Post by: The Rabbi on October 28, 2005, 07:07:44 AM
Quote from: Stand_watie
The Rabbi. Certainly if you are to take the position of the Pharisees or the Sagucees, the citations don't support the contention. I'll reiterate what I stated above, that I don't wish to attempt to debate the rightness of the Christian vs. the Judaic theology - I think it would not only be unproductive, but counterproductive - I specifically used the verbiage my opinionbecause I'm aware it conflicts with current orthodox (by that I mean traditional rather than the specific sect) Jewish doctrine.
I'll mention that the Pharisees were the good guys. Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
Post by: richyoung on October 28, 2005, 08:09:15 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
I'll mention that the Pharisees were the good guys. Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
Having stood in the ominous shadow of the ovens at Dachau, and having seen on television the mosque on the Temple grounds, if the Pharisees were "history's winners", what, pray tell would "losers" look like? Many American Christians pray for, and support, Israel and her people, ...despite repeated Isreali spies caught working against our countries interest, ...despite the unrepentant war crime of the deliberate and cowardly attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, an essentially unarmed ship of an ally in neutral waters at the time - an attack that included machine gunning streacher bearers and life rafts, ...despite the Israeli government's taking technology we supply for her defense, reverse-engineering it, and selling it to our enemies, like Red China. Do I hold the modern Jews culpable for the actions of a corrupt Roman puppet regime 2000 years ago? Surely not! To do so would be unjust. Would I ever contend that God does not hear the prayers of Jews? Absolutely not! Who am I to put binds on the Creator of all things? My Christ is a Jew, and can hear the prayers of Jews if he so desires, and as a Gentile, I am only grafted onto the tree of life by his grace. I hope the Children of Israel remember those that seek justice must do justice, and of those whom much is given, much is expected. One can only admire the feats of arms the Israelis have achieved, but should also not forget that it was Gentile technology and Gentile treasure that often made the difference between victory and defeat.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 28, 2005, 08:16:58 AM
What the rest of that screed had to do with the topic is beyond me.
Post by: richyoung on October 28, 2005, 09:41:15 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
The losers aren't around to talk about it.
What the rest of that screed had to do with the topic is beyond me.
Seems to me there are plenty of Christians around these days....
What the rest of that screed had to do with the topic is beyond me.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 28, 2005, 03:02:10 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
I'll mention .. Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
I'll take your word for that as I'm sure your reading of the last couple thousand years of Jewish history is a lot more comprehensive than mine.Rich, I think (emphasis on think as 'the Rabbi' is parsimonious enough with words that I frequently scratch my head in regards to what he means) that by 'winners' and 'losers' he's referring to the dispensation of the theology of two sects within modern Jewish thought.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on October 29, 2005, 12:58:00 PM
A) it was now superceded by the New Covenant as a means of salvation (salvation through faith in Him as the Messiah); and
B) that many (the Pharisee's) put so much effort and importance into PUBLICALLY demonstrating their adherence to the Law that they actually neglected to care for people or truly acknowledge God. Also, they would use other's failure to be as pious to control/humiliate them. Aggrandizing themselves at the expense of others.
His actions in violation of the Law were to emphasize that life is about a personal relationship with God with Jesus as mediator, not rigorous adherence, that the Law could actually be a stumbling block to true faith.
One interpretation I've heard and read was that the complexity of the Law itself was to make plain the inability of man to, through his actions, be "good" enough to truly walk with God personally. Instead, he would have to turn to God in submission and achieve that presence through grace, not works.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 29, 2005, 02:52:59 PM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: The Rabbi
I'll mention .. Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
I'll take your word for that as I'm sure your reading of the last couple thousand years of Jewish history is a lot more comprehensive than mine.Rich, I think (emphasis on think as 'the Rabbi' is parsimonious enough with words that I frequently scratch my head in regards to what he means) that by 'winners' and 'losers' he's referring to the dispensation of the theology of two sects within modern Jewish thought.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 29, 2005, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
The Sadducees died out or assimilated. Judaism today is a reflection of the Pharisaic version, which was obviously the correct one. The winner in history is the one who survived. and the Pharisees survived quite well.
I thought they were just a different theological bent, I didn't realize they were ethnically distinct from the pharisees.Too bad we can't resurrect a Sadducee just to argue with you. But then, since they didn't believe in resurrection they'd be proven wrong just in the process
Post by: The Rabbi on October 29, 2005, 04:04:57 PM
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: The Rabbi
The Sadducees died out or assimilated. Judaism today is a reflection of the Pharisaic version, which was obviously the correct one. The winner in history is the one who survived. and the Pharisees survived quite well.
I thought they were just a different theological bent, I didn't realize they were ethnically distinct from the pharisees.Too bad we can't resurrect a Sadducee just to argue with you. But then, since they didn't believe in resurrection they'd be proven wrong just in the process
Post by: Stand_watie on October 29, 2005, 05:48:57 PM
I figure the descendents of the Essenes are all in Israel right now advising Sharon on how to keep suicide bombers from breaching checkpoints.
Post by: Antibubba on October 29, 2005, 11:16:33 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 30, 2005, 06:02:17 AM
I'll add on reflection that I recall a book whose thesis was that Jesus was a Pharisee, or at least had come from that tradition. It might have been called "Jesus the Jew" and written by Dr. Geza Vermes. Then again it might not.
Post by: Antibubba on October 30, 2005, 01:39:47 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 30, 2005, 02:24:13 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Actually the karaites are still around, albeit in declining numbers. At one time they were a major force in the Jewish world.
I'll add on reflection that I recall a book whose thesis was that Jesus was a Pharisee, or at least had come from that tradition. It might have been called "Jesus the Jew" and written by Dr. Geza Vermes. Then again it might not.
You know, while looking up that book I discovered that it is actually considered controversial in some circles to say "Jesus was a Jew". How odd. As antibubba says, you learn something new every day.
I'll add on reflection that I recall a book whose thesis was that Jesus was a Pharisee, or at least had come from that tradition. It might have been called "Jesus the Jew" and written by Dr. Geza Vermes. Then again it might not.