Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Nick1911 on December 08, 2008, 04:41:39 PM
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US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
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Smoke billows from the site of the crash
A US military F-18 fighter jet has crashed into a residential area of San Diego, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has said.
The San Diego Fire Department described the scene of the crash as "a heavily populated area" near Interstate 805.
TV footage showed plumes of white smoke rising from several houses. It is not clear if there are any casualties.
The jet crashed as it prepared to land at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar and the pilot had ejected, the FAA said.
The crash occurred two miles (3.2km) from the base, it added.
Donny James, who was visiting his mother in the area, said the supersonic fighter had been flying at very low altitude.
Both houses were totally engulfed in flames... I saw one pilots walking around and he was dazed
Donny James, witness
"It spiralled out of control, just like out of Top Gun, and then it came down," he told CNN.
Mr James said he was unable to get closer to the scene because two houses were on fire.
"Both houses were totally engulfed in flames. I saw a pilot walking around and he was dazed. The police were telling everyone to get out of the way," he added.
A spokesman for the San Diego police department, Monica Munoz, said it appeared so far that the only person injured was the pilot.
Thoughts:
Isn't punching out at low altitude usually fatal?
Who will pay for the houses that were damaged/destroyed?
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Was the jet flying a patrol, and was it armed?
Is all ordnance accounted for?
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Thoughts:
Isn't punching out at low altitude usually fatal?
Who will pay for the houses that were damaged/destroyed?
I assume the govt will be covering the damages. Don't F18's have zero/zero ejection seats? The pilot could eject while on the ground not moving and be ok.
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Gregor said the pilot ejected before the crash near Interstate 805. He did not know the pilot's condition or how many people were aboard.
*facepalm* Because it's an FAA official and they for some reason don't know if it's a C,D,E or F? Shouldn't they know that?
Edit: Though this would probably be why they don't know.
A Miramar spokeswoman said personnel from the base were dispatched to the crash site.
"We are still trying to confirm the aircraft even belongs to us," said Marine Staff Sgt. Bobbie Bryant.
Um...?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html)
I would think it'd be helpful to know that sort of thing and pass it on to first responders quickly? If they know there's one pilot and nobody is in the houses, they can get the hell away from the hydrazine tank if it hasn't gone already. (Do F-18's have a hydrazine-powered APU, or only the F-16 has that?) If it might have been a two-seat, there might be another pilot who came down and is hurt or stuck.
Good to see that the base doesn't even know if it's their plane, that we've got our s__ together this well only seven years after 9/11...
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Could be from another base elsewhere?
Notice the article says it is a "military" jet as opposed to Navy/Air Force/Marines.
I guess it's "possible" it could be from some other AFB in the western US.
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zOMG! They put the nearby high school in lockdown! :-)
=D
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Could be from another base elsewhere?
Notice the article says it is a "military" jet as opposed to Navy/Air Force/Marines.
I guess it's "possible" it could be from some other AFB in the western US.
The crash happened as the jet was returning to the Miramar field after performing landing training on a Navy aircraft carrier, the Marine Corps said in a news release. The cause of the crash is under investigation, it said.
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Local news says pilot was flying from a carrier offshore, when he had engine failure. Not sure if it was one, or both. Ejected short of Miramar. At least three civilians dead on the ground.
Correction, two killed, two missing.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081208-1453-bn08plane4.html
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Local news says pilot was flying from a carrier offshore, when he had engine failure. Not sure if it was one, or both. Ejected short of Miramar. At least three civilians dead on the ground.
Correction, two killed, two missing.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081208-1453-bn08plane4.html
Aw, man. I bet he feels terrible, even if it's obviously not his fault. =(
Every time I've seen something go down, it looks like the pilot tries their hardest to get it aimed at water or open fields before punching out. But sometimes, if enough goes wrong, they just don't have an airplane anymore, they just have a big chunk of metal and fuel falling out of the sky. All they can do is leave at that point.
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Isn't punching out at low altitude usually fatal?
Who will pay for the houses that were damaged/destroyed?
Like most current U.S. fighters, F/A-18s have what are called Zero-Zero ejection seats.
As long as they eject inside the performance envelope, they can safely egress at zero altitude and zero airspeed.
Rockets in the seat fire and orient the seat in a safe direction with enough burn time to gain enough altitude for a good canopy opening.
Notice that I said "inside the envelope". If one punches out and exceeds the capabilities of the seat, then all bets are off.
I just wish my B-52H had Zero-Zero seats. The two guys downstairs would really appreciate it, too. :|
Uncle Sam carries no insurance, they just pay cash for liabilities from airplane and vehicle crashes. That's another reason they train us to steer away from populated areas when we're in deep doo-doo.
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Gewehr, what's an example of exceeding the capabilities of the seat? Or maybe it's easier to answer, what's the performance envelope?
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Uncle Sam carries no insurance
Yup. Causes lots of confusion with some local cops, too. My father works for the BLM and has had to go down to the county lockup more than once to break out one of his co-workers who was arrested for driving without insurance after they wrecked a BLM rig. ;/
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The performance envelope for the Zero-Zero seats is considerably bigger than their predecessors.
Here's a good link explaining the concept, and a test:
http://www.ejectionsite.com/project90.htm
The ejection envelope is dependent on many factors, honestly. Aircraft type, aircraft altitude, aircraft orientation, airspeed, you name it. The newer seats have come a long way, and can mitigate some of those factors, but aren't 100% and never will be.
What won't work? A super-duper "smart" ejection seat like the ACES-II isn't going to help you much if you're inverted over the deck by just a few feet, or if you have so much airspeed going that the opening shock of your 'chute breaks your neck/back.
However, it's definitely better than the alternative. There are some impressive videos of Zero-Zero seats being used to good effect, including that USAF Thunderbird pilot who punched out a fraction of a second before his F-16 pancaked into the deck from a poorly-executed outside loop.
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The reason he was so low is because he was on a 2 mile final approach. When an engine decides to quit you don't have much time at that altitude. Normally, with a single engine faillure, an F-18 can recover and gain altitude to avoid crashing. An F-16 on the other hand won't have much chance for survival. Question is, did both motors fail or did he run out of fuel? Won't know for sure until the investigation is over.
It's unfortunate that there was civilian casualties on the ground. I'm sure if they pilot had the chance to steer clear of a populated area, he would have.
The Aces II is a great ejection seat. Hell of alot better than the Martin Baker back breaker.
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Although I cannot find it on the Net right now, a few years back, the Seattle papers had a story of a F-15 pilot who survived a supersonic ejection over Alaska. Apparently he is one of the very few to do so. He sustained some major orthopedic injuries and his flying career ended, as I recall.
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An F-16 on the other hand won't have much chance for survival.
Quite true, and that's why we referred to them as "Lawn Darts" at airshows when pretty young things in their Daisy Dukes got done looking at our Big Ugly Fat F_____, and mentioned in passing that they wanted to go talk to the dashing young men and their single-engine fighters.
"If that plane over there is an F-15 Eagle, what's that little one?"
"Oh, that's an F-16 Lawn Dart" :angel:
And of course, they sashay over and ask if those are indeed their F-16 Lawn Darts. =D
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A Miramar spokeswoman said personnel from the base were dispatched to the crash site.
"We are still trying to confirm the aircraft even belongs to us," said Marine Staff Sgt. Bobbie Bryant.
Um...?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html
I would think it'd be helpful to know that sort of thing and pass it on to first responders quickly? If they know there's one pilot and nobody is in the houses, they can get the hell away from the hydrazine tank if it hasn't gone already. (Do F-18's have a hydrazine-powered APU, or only the F-16 has that?) If it might have been a two-seat, there might be another pilot who came down and is hurt or stuck.
Good to see that the base doesn't even know if it's their plane, that we've got our s__ together this we*facepalm* Because it's an FAA official and they for some reason don't know if it's a C,D,E or F? Shouldn't they know that?
Edit: Though this would probably be why they don't know.
Um...?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463725,00.html)
I would think it'd be helpful to know that sort of thing and pass it on to first responders quickly? If they know there's one pilot and nobody is in the houses, they can get the hell away from the hydrazine tank if it hasn't gone already. (Do F-18's have a hydrazine-powered APU, or only the F-16 has that?) If it might have been a two-seat, there might be another pilot who came down and is hurt or stuck.
Good to see that the base doesn't even know if it's their plane, that we've got our s__ together this well only seven years after 9/11...
Slow down.
Listen to me.
If you google Staff Sgt. Bobbie Bryant she comes up as a PAO for Mirimar. She's a damn reporter.
Now. First responders and ATC and Squadron all cooridnate the accident.
News reporter calls the base. News reporter gets Mirmar's PAO (Public Affairs Office for the civilian/layman). PAO says "we don't know who's airplane it is" or some other bonehead statement.
Take this towel. Wipe the froth from your piehole. Simmer down.
Trust me. ATC and the First Responders know exactly who's airplane it was, how many POB there were, and probably other data such as ordinance, FOB, nature of emergency, etc.
BTDT.
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Thanks Gewehr -- also for the informative website!
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Judging from the fire, I'd say there was still fuel on board.
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Judging from the fire, I'd say there was still fuel on board.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.signonsandiego.com%2Fteaserimages%2F081208jetcrash_aerial310.jpg&hash=f6e171e161aac0e0d2a50d4a0621528d58af37d6)
Probably wouldn't take that much fuel to cause that burn pattern/damage pattern. More than about 1/3 FOB I'd expect to see more damage.
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Not a whole heck of a lot of fuel, it looks like. APU feed and vapors, plus hydraulic fluid.
After carrier landing exercises, who wants to bet there was some manner of undetected fatigue failure?
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Not a whole heck of a lot of fuel, it looks like. APU feed and vapors, plus hydraulic fluid.
After carrier landing exercises, who wants to bet there was some manner of undetected fatigue failure?
Its an was an F18........
Imagine a 16 year old with a new DL. Give him a shiny new Corvette. Now, tell him he must drive that thing alot. And race it.
That is how most airframes in the military are treated. Throw in a very dedicated but young maintenance crew.
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No, I'd bet against metal fatigue, the planes are well maintained, and fairly young. Also, an extensive airframe failure would throw pieces all over. I haven't heard of any pieces being found outside the crash area.
Dual engine failure from bird strikes or something else is my guess. Or maybe single engine failure that the pilot couldn't control.
A two mile final puts the plane at about 1,000 feet, fully configured for landing and fairly slow (assuming the military flies like civilians- I don't know). An engine failure there can be exciting, but totally controllable.
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No, I'd bet against metal fatigue, the planes are well maintained, and fairly young. Also, an extensive airframe failure would throw pieces all over. I haven't heard of any pieces being found outside the crash area.
Dual engine failure from bird strikes or something else is my guess. Or maybe single engine failure that the pilot couldn't control.
A two mile final puts the plane at about 1,000 feet, fully configured for landing and fairly slow (assuming the military flies like civilians- I don't know). An engine failure there can be exciting, but totally controllable.
Double engine failure (bird strike seems highly plausible) isn't a happy situation for an F18....seems like a very plausible cause.
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Could have just run out of fuel, too .... =|
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Yep. Or the pilot could have turned off the fuel accidently. A.k.a. pilot error.
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No manual fuel shutoff except for the throttles in the F/A-18. From the reports of fire at the exhaust and returning from the ship, I'd ask about potential engine FOD. Possibly a bird strike as well. Or a turbine could have thrown a blade. I feel sorry for the pilot who now has the rest of his life to ask "Could I have done anything better?"
TC
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The SanDiegoUnion is reporting he was coming back from the Lincoln (most likely Carrier Quals) single engine. His other engine quit as he was going into Miramar. It is reporting he stayed with the plane until about 25 ft AGL. The straight in single engine approach from the ocean explains why he was landing the way he was. The planes at Miramar normally approach from the other end because there is (or was) a nice large uninhabited buffer zone.
http://www.10news.com/news/18231819/detail.html
As of right now, we can all speculate as to what may have caused the engine to quit, but that is all it is, speculation.
I will wait for the results of the Accident Board and see what really happened.
As an aside, when I first met my wife, she was living in that neighborhood.
bob
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No manual fuel shutoff except for the throttles in the F/A-18. From the reports of fire at the exhaust and returning from the ship, I'd ask about potential engine FOD. Possibly a bird strike as well. Or a turbine could have thrown a blade. I feel sorry for the pilot who now has the rest of his life to ask "Could I have done anything better?"
TC
I've seen several jets auger in on 2 to 5 mile final after losing everything. Luckily both ends of Yuma's runways were mostly orange groves. But even if he had no control over the issue I'm sure that he'll wonder that question for the rest of his life, too.
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O.K. .......
Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....
Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.
Is it just me or what?
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From the article he landed not more than a couple hundred feet away, and looking at the photos it seems he was stuck without a whole lot of dirt to aim for. If he was fighting a stalled airplane, this was probably about the best your gonna get, and riding it into the ground is pointless.
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O.K. .......
Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....
Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.
Is it just me or what?
Sometimes there isn't much dirt, especially when you are low on final. There aren't a whole lot of options in that point.
A jet fighter designed for high speeds isn't forgiving at the low airspeeds you need for approach and landing. You can't trade altitude for airspeed.
And FWIW, we general aviation pilots always go down with the ship...but if I had an ejection seat, damn straight I'd use it...
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Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.
Is it just me or what?
It is just you. I don't remember at any time being told is was our duty to take our plane into the dirt, rather than hit houses. It was a given that if we could, we would stay with the plane as long as possible and attempt to minimize damage on the ground, it wasn't a duty, but rather the way an honorable person would conduct himself. There is also the possibility he was trying for the canyon behind the houses but ran out of two things required to stay airborne....sky and airspeed.
In retrospect, there will be a lot of people giving their opinions on what he should have done, but like all Monday morning quarterbacks, we weren't there and and didn't have to make the decision in the blink of an eye.
He survived, and several on the ground didn't, he will always remember that. I have seen people give up their wings for less.
bob
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O.K. .......
Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....
Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.
Is it just me or what?
If they have any control over the aircraft, they will fly it for what its worth.
Often mere seconds are involved for a pilot to make a decision.
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It is just you, and the fact that you went there ain't cool at all.
Does it chap your hide that we had ejection seats vs. doing the "honorable" thing? ;/
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O.K. .......
Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....
Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.
Is it just me or what?
Just you.
If he lost his remaining engine at 25 ft AGL on final (low airspeed), he's not going to be able to do *ANYTHING* other than add one more to any body count that occurs. If he gets out, and doesn't land in the wreckage and die anyways, that's one less person who died, someone who might actually be able to answer questions about what happened.
Of course, he also gets to feel guilty for the rest of his life, because he DIDN'T ride it into the ground and/or manage to keep it from landing on someone else. Hope he is able to handle it, and gets counselling if needed.
Seriously, what POSSIBLE benefit is there in staying with the plane if there is *ZERO* possibility of keeping it from hitting an inhabited area, as under the conditions which existed for this event?
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Not to nitpick...but....
"25 ft AGL" puts him over the fence or the underrun, not over the suburbs.
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Not to nitpick...but....
"25 ft AGL" puts him over the fence or the underrun, not over the suburbs.
Should have done my own research instead of blithely quoting something I saw upthread, give me a second...
Okay, looks like 2 miles out, so he ought to have been under 1K, right? POSSIBLY even lower, if they didn't want a high descent rate during final and landing due to being down to a single engine. Reports from observers state that the plane was "flying extremely low" - sounds like WELL under 1K to me. Just checked online maps, and the crash location is just about right on 2 miles from the end of the runway; landing speed on the close order of 150mph gives us 48 seconds or so to the end of the runway. A thousand feet up at that point would require a 21fps descent rate - probably doable for a carrier-based aircraft (IIRC, they can handle up to 30fps, but don't remember where I read that and won't swear it's accurate), but limiting to 10fps would put him at under 500ft up - with gear and flaps down and two-engine failure (how long would hydraulics last, for control of the aircraft?), on an aircraft with a TINY glide ratio.
Yeah, unless we get further information indicating otherwise, I'm sticking with the belief that there was nothing the pilot could have done.
ETA: He EJECTED at 25AGL, not lost power there. That's where I got that, and was mixing the two up. And I'd forgotten that the F-18D is, apparently, fly-by-wire, so he needed electrical AND hydraulic power (for computers and wing/tail control surface deflections). Still don't know how long that would last with engines out.
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From CNN:
SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- A Korean immigrant who lost his wife, two children and mother-in-law when a Marine Corps jet slammed into the family's house said Tuesday he did not blame the pilot, who ejected and survived.
Dong Yun Yoon addresses reporters Tuesday, a day after a jet crashed into his home and killed four of his relatives.
Dong Yun Yoon addresses reporters Tuesday, a day after a jet crashed into his home and killed four of his relatives.
"Please pray for him not to suffer from this accident," a distraught Dong Yun Yoon told reporters gathered near the site of Monday's crash of an F/A-18D jet in San Diego's University City community.
"He is one of our treasures for the country," Yoon said in accented English punctuated by long pauses while he tried to maintain his composure.
"I don't blame him. I don't have any hard feelings. I know he did everything he could," said Yoon, flanked by members of San Diego's Korean community, relatives and members from the family's church.
At least the victims' NOK are compassionate...
TC
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classy statement
funny the appreciation of the military some immigrants have. and how lil some of the homegrown folks show
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Listening to CNN in the car earlier, witnesses are reporting that the jet made no noise as it fell. CNN is also reporting that it lost one engine after takeoff from the Carrier, and the other over the suburbs.
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classy statement
funny the appreciation of the military some immigrants have. and how lil some of the homegrown folks show
Some immigrants come from places where things are a lot worse, and thus when they come here they are very appreciative, unlike some who lived here all their lives and take everything for granted and have no idea what it's really like living elsewhere.
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Sad for all involved, I don't see how adding the pilot to the deceased list would have made it better. My idea for someone to blame is the city. If the place is anything like Virginia Beach the developers came along and put in lots of high density developments and schools long after the airfield was established. Risk will never go away, hopefully the pilot and the families of those on the ground can learn something and move on.
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I remember that circa 1980, an F-14 crashed on approach to NAS Miramar. (It was a Naval Air Station, then). The pilot was praised throughout the community because he managed to crash it in an empty park vs the surrounding houses. I think the pilot died in that crash.
and I'll second FrenchG's statement. I lived in the flight path of NAS Oceana during my last two tours. It sucked, but we all accepted the risk of a crash.
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Just you.
If he lost his remaining engine at 25 ft AGL on final (low airspeed), he's not going to be able to do *ANYTHING* other than add one more to any body count that occurs. If he gets out, and doesn't land in the wreckage and die anyways, that's one less person who died, someone who might actually be able to answer questions about what happened.
Of course, he also gets to feel guilty for the rest of his life, because he DIDN'T ride it into the ground and/or manage to keep it from landing on someone else. Hope he is able to handle it, and gets counselling if needed.
Seriously, what POSSIBLE benefit is there in staying with the plane if there is *ZERO* possibility of keeping it from hitting an inhabited area, as under the conditions which existed for this event?
'S what I was thinking. By all accounts he flew it as far as he could and took the out at the last possible moment.
There was/is a photo on FoxNews (IIRC) of the pilot aviator sitting on the ground at the crash site, talking on a cell phone. I immediately wondered how long it'll take for the nitpickers and those who practice being offended as a profession to start harping about his not caring about the people who died because he didn't immediately begin a public display of overwhelming grief and guilt. The nitpickers et al don't know, and wouldn't care, that his isn't the type for it. The first duty is to analyze and report, if able. Afterward, they do their grieving in private, with family, squadron mates, and fellow flyers.
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ETA: He EJECTED at 25AGL, not lost power there.
At 25 ft above the ground, without power in a plane that glides about as well as the average cow, he would be clipping power lines and trees within milliseconds. I think it's safe to say he rode it out until there was really nothing more he could do.
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With a punchout at 25' AGL it could be he was aiming doen the street. That house was on a corner, after all. I could easily see him punching out an instant before the plan went awry by a wing clipping a tree and turning the plane into the house, etc.
No, can't fault the pilot here.
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I found this on a blog. I don't know if there's anything online, but if you have the time and inclination, you might send a note:
Reader David talked to Yoon’s pastor, who said you can send card and help directly to his church.
Here’s the address:
Dong Yun Yoon
c/o Rev. Kevin Lee
Korean United Methodist Church
3520 Mount Acadia Blvd
San Diego, CA 92111
His faith and patriotism have touched so many of us so deeply. Take a moment to help lift him up.