Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Grandpa Shooter on January 26, 2009, 08:00:51 PM
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http://www.wnem.com/news/18566890/detail.html#-
This one caught my eye and made me wonder. Isn't there a procedure that has to be followed before they can just shut off your power?
Veteran Freezes To Death In Own Home
Bay City Electric & Light Restricted Power To Man's Home After Not Paying Bills
POSTED: 2:20 pm EST January 26, 2009
UPDATED: 6:33 pm EST January 26, 2009
BAY CITY, Mich. -- Officials in central Michigan say a 93-year-old man who owned more than $1,000 in unpaid electric bills froze to death inside his home -- where the municipal power company had restricted his use of electricity.
Neighbors and friends of Marvin Schur want answers as to how this could happen.
“Now that we do know it was hypothermia, there’s a whole bunch of feelings that I’ve got going through me,” said Jim Herndon, a neighbor of Schur’s. “There’s anger, for the city and the electrical company.”
Bay City officials said changes are on the way in an attempt to not let another instance like this happen again.
An autopsy determined Schur, 93, died from hypothermia in the home he lived in for years.
Bay City Electric Light and Power sent Schur a shutoff notice through the mail a few weeks ago.
Then crews placed a shutoff notice on his front door. A few days later, Schur was found by neighbors.
Bay City Electric Light and Power, which is owned by the city, said a limiter was placed on Schur’s electrical line.
The device limits the power that reaches a home, and it blows out like a fuse if power consumption rises past a set level.
The manager of Bay City said the limiter was tripped sometime between the time of installation and the discovery of the man's body.
The city manager said city workers keep the limiter on a house for 10 days, then shut off power entirely if the homeowner hasn't paid utility bills or arranged to do so.
A medical examiner who conducted the autopsy on Schur told TV5 and WNEM.com that Schur died a painful death due to the hypothermia.
Dr. Kanu Varani has done hundreds of autopsies, and he said he’d never seen a person die of hypothermia indoors.
A neighbor who lives across the street from Schur is angered that the city didn’t personally notify the elderly man about his utility situation.
Schur’s neighbor, Herndon, said Schur had a utility bill on his kitchen table with a large amount of money clipped to it, with the intention of paying that bill.
Right now the city said the situation is still under investigation. Marvin Schur was a World War II veteran.
A memorial service for him will take place Wednesday at 11:00 a.m. at the Gephart Funeral Home in Bay City.
Copyright 2009 by WNEM.COM. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Public hanging for those responsible. :mad:
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What obama wasn't helping him out?
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http://www.wnem.com/news/18566890/detail.html#-
This one caught my eye and made me wonder. Isn't there a procedure that has to be followed before they can just shut off your power?
Nope.
Though in most states the only way it's restricted as to when they can shut your power off is if you have life giving medical equipment that runs in your house.
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Ok, I don't get it. It's sad, yeah, but since when is the power company this guy's legal guardian?
Isn't there a procedure that has to be followed before they can just shut off your power?
Would you be referring to the mailed notices, the one nailed to the door, or the limiter device?
“There’s anger, for the city and the electrical company.”
But none for the family, friends, and neighbors who never took the five minutes to check on the senile old man. It sounds like the electric company had more contact with this dude than those actually responsible for his care.
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It's easy to blame the "heartless" power company, but where was his family? Or these neighbors who were so concerned? And if he had the mental and physical capacity to live alone, could he have told somebody, or asked for help?
AFAIK, utility bills are generated electronically; there isn't a person reviewing the case unless the delinquent customer speaks to a person on the phone and asks for help. The workers who restricted and shut off the power were doing their jobs. They probably had no idea who the man was, how old he was, or that he lived alone.
I cut off services to customers who haven't paid their bills in a while. Fortunately, to my knowledge, nobody has ever died from their lawn being overgrown, but just the same, I don't know much about most of my customers other than their names and addresses.
That Mr. Schur was a WW2 vet and met such a preventable and odd demise is ironically sad, but it's nothing more than an unfortunate tragedy, caused by a number of factors that just happened to align.
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power companies are funny once when work was slow i was late for several months which triggers this response from them i hada pay em a 2 months of my highest bill as a deposit. so i hada come up with 700 in deposit plus the 2 months at 600 total. was interesting to see how they figured someone already behind could magically come up with more
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i never understood how a utility co has the right to turn off power if you fall behind on your rent, but (in ny) a landlord who has utilities included with the rent may not allow them to be shut down, even if the rent has not been paid for several months or more.
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Many cities have calendar-based restrictions on when power can be shut off, for this very reason.
I guess Bay City, Michigan, isn't one of them.
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Ok, I don't get it. It's sad, yeah, but since when is the power company this guy's legal guardian?Would you be referring to the mailed notices, the one nailed to the door, or the limiter device?But none for the family, friends, and neighbors who never took the five minutes to check on the senile old man. It sounds like the electric company had more contact with this dude than those actually responsible for his care.
Exactly.
For all they knew, the house was being used by druggies or squatters.
And we don't know what the elderly man's level of competence was. He could have had full command of his faculties, and was just stubborn, or in denial. The "mean power company" was just following it's own standard policies.
I agree the failure was with neighbors, friends, and family. If the power company or some social service agency went door-to-door in winter with the expressed purpose of looking for at-risk people, many of us here with our reflexive right/libertarian attitudes would be all up in arms over the invasion of privacy.
Vets freezing to death is a price of living in a (relatively, still...) free society.
Ultimately, this is just a side-effect of our modern society. Two car, two working-parent families, 1000 channel cable TV, cell phones, the Internet, etc. mean we all have a great deal of choice in how we spend our time and what competes for our attention. The lament of how people don't know their neighbors anymore is quite true. I admit, I am more than guilty of it myself. It's taken me eight years to memorize the names of our neighbors just eight feet away from us on the west side where their driveway has zero clearance from the wall of our house.
And that's because they asked us to collect their mail for them for a week while they were on vacation.
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There is also the component that the govt takes care of our old people so we don't have to.
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From my perspective, this falls into the category of abuse of power. It fits right in with forced evictions. It would seem to me that there should be a requirement that there be personal contact with the individual(s) prior to the final moment. If indeed it were squatters, druggies and other such human trash, I wouldn't mind a bit throwing them out on the street or letting them freeze to death.
I also agree that our society has become so impersonal that there is little if any contact even between neighbors, and often enough no one looks out for others, even relatives. It is a regrettable condition and bound to get worse. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people with whom I interact on the internet who have a clue what I look like or who I really am. That is a mixed blessing.
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From my perspective, this falls into the category of abuse of power.
If the power company were forced to provide service to someone who doesn't pay that would be an abuse of power. To me it looks more like capitalism at work - you don't get what you can't pay for.
If you want to bake a free market you have to freeze a few eggs. Or something like that =|
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From my perspective, this falls into the category of abuse of power.
BS. How many different ways do they need to get the point across? Would you care if he wasn't a vet?
I also agree that our society has become so impersonal that there is little if any contact even between neighbors, and often enough no one looks out for others, even relatives. It is a regrettable condition and bound to get worse.
I disagree. Everywhere I've lived except for the stint I did in an apartment complex, I knew my neighbors and they knew me. Being young, we didn't need to check up on each other, but we knew everyone's habits and movements. Even now, my neighbors are familiar with us and look out for our interests (and vice versa).
To the best of my knowledge there are only two people with whom I interact on the internet who have a clue what I look like or who I really am. That is a mixed blessing.
Whose fault is that?
Live like a hermit, die like one...
Chris
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This is one of those topics where I'm afraid we just have to agree to disagree politely. I know from looking at the "what age are APS ers thread" that I am two generations removed from the majority of you folks. My son could never figure out how come he got along with his friends grandparents so well until it dawned on him that his father was the age of his friends grandparents and his friends parents could be my kids.
Some of my most well liked customers are my Mothers age. We share common values and socialize with them.
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guy didn't pay his bill. gets multiple warnings. apparrently does nothing about the warnings.
what would you have the electric company do?
how is this any different than the grocery store refusing to give away food to someone who either can't or won't pay?
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guy didn't pay his bill. gets multiple warnings. apparrently does nothing about the warnings.
what would you have the electric company do?
how is this any different than the grocery store refusing to give away food to someone who either can't or won't pay?
bubububut he's a vet! [/sputtering indignation]
The real story is why you should not be a hermit, hiding from humanity. Those connections you reject today might be the ones that keep you from freezing to death on a dark winter's night.
Chris
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don't get old and outlive family and friends either cause the folks next door are too busy with the new wii to see how you are doing.
i worked for a while in a real upscale assisted living joint in bethesda. room service fine dining the works. had family from japan come see me and nice as this place was (think 4 star hotel plus) they were appalled and just couldn'y fathom that all these folks "had no family?" interesting cultural perspective
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don't get old and outlive family and friends either cause the folks next door are too busy with the new wii to see how you are doing.
My grandmother fell and hurt herself last year. She broke her jaw and had to have it wired shut. It also rattled her cage enough that she was unable to drive for months. I live 5hrs away. My mom lives 15hrs from my grandmother. My aunt, only an hour away, could be there for each and every appointment. Also, lacking the dexterity to do it herself, she needed help with the rubber bands she was required to use as her jaw healed (not to mention help fixing the special meals she had to eat).
A family friend's daughter, who is younger than my mom, was our savior. Being a dental tech (or something like that), she started out helping with the jaw related issues, but ended up helping my grandmother run errands, get to her appts, etc. Even though my mom spent the first couple weeks with my grandmother, this other lady was able to help when my mom could stay no longer. Without her, we're not sure what we would have done.
My grandfather (dad's dad) is very friendly with his neighbors, even the ones next door who are my age (or a bit older) and have kids in their 'tweens. He's the type of person who would know everyone on the plane by the end of a flight.
My point is, if you maintain contact with those in your community they'll be there if you need help. Everybody is quick to say neighbors, young people, etc ignore everyone and won't be available if you need help are living a self-perpetuating scenario by writing these folks off. Get to know the folks around you. Don't be the crazy cat lady or strange old hermit.
Chris
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i'm gonna have to go with tragic mistake on the part of the vet.
he knew he needed to pay the bill. he had seemingly made plans to pay the bill. but he didn't pay and his power got shut off.
my mothers husband is horrid at getting bills paid. he's got the money, but he procrastiates/gets distracted/forgets and sometimes the bills don't get paid when they're supposed to (like my cell and the power bill) and when service gets cut off i certainly don't blame the company that provides the service. i blame eric for being stupid.
i feel bad that the guy died. but i really just don't see how anyone else is to blame.
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Stories like this (and our responses to them) are always a good example of empathy vs logic. I'm saddened the poor fellow died, but in the end it's his own fault.
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Stories like this (and our responses to them) are always a good example of empathy vs logic. I'm saddened the poor fellow died, but in the end it's his own fault.
Blame may ultimately fall on him. But it wouldn't have hurt had the people that they had to send to shut down the power, or place the restricter or whatever, knocked on the door to let him know that they were shutting down the power because he failed to pay.
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On the one hand it's easy to feel bad for the guy. On the other hand, there's no good argument for forcing a company to provide its services for free.
Ultimately, this is the sort of tragedy that's easily avoided. If you're an old man and can't afford to pay your heating bill in the winter time, it's almost a guarantee that clueing the power company in on that is going to result in some kind of compromise: he people who run the power companies are not ignorant of this kind of story, and the repercussions therein. And if nothing else, charities or even frineds, family, and neighbors can band together to get this kind of thing worked out.
Tragic. And the kind of tragedy that all too often ends up being used as a tool by politicians.
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Blame may ultimately fall on him. But it wouldn't have hurt had the people that they had to send to shut down the power, or place the restricter or whatever, knocked on the door to let him know that they were shutting down the power because he failed to pay.
What makes you think he wasn't notified? He probably got a handful of mail from the power company, a few phone calls, at least one notice left on his front door. After all of that he still didn't go out and pay his long overdue bill, or even pick up the phone to tell 'em about his circumstances. At some point he needed to take some responsibility for himself.
Sure, he was a vet. He was probably a really great guy. But he was also careless and irresponsible in this particular instance, and he died because of it. That's very unfortunate, but it's not the power company's fault.
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To everyone saying that the power company should send people up to the door: do you think the people who's electricity you're cutting off are going to be happy about it? You think they might be a bit dangerous? If the person doesn't respond to multiple mailings and a notice on the door, why would talking to him face to face make a difference?
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my mothers husband is horrid at getting bills paid. he's got the money, but he procrastiates/gets distracted/forgets and sometimes the bills don't get paid when they're supposed to (like my cell and the power bill) and when service gets cut off i certainly don't blame the company that provides the service. i blame eric for being stupid.
You should be grateful he pays for your cell phone. not calling him names.
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kind of like "Brave New World"
I knew a guy in Reno whose job it is to turn off power and I talked to him about just this kind of thing.
He tries two or three times to talk to the person before turning off power specifically because he cares about the elderly and families.
I guess this place was larger and impersonal.
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Blame may ultimately fall on him. But it wouldn't have hurt had the people that they had to send to shut down the power, or place the restrictor or whatever, knocked on the door to let him know that they were shutting down the power because he failed to pay.
The numerous letters, notes, and power regulator weren't enough? How to be know they didn't knock?
Not to mention the "My lights just went out the TV wont turn on it's getting a bit nippy in here and I haven't paid my power bill in months" factor didn't come into play? Even once the power was cut off he knew something was wrong when the lights went out and it started getting cold.
I'm not bashing the guy by any means. I truly feel sorry for him, but it came as the result of his negligence. Especially if he had the money together, as the article points to, why did he not pay it or make the arrangement? "I have a my pension check coming in two weeks and will have all my payment then." One simple phone call, I'm sure they get the exact same one dozens of times per day by people behind on their bill and catching up. Saving money and not making a payment arrangement doesn't help matters at all.
Sad story, but in the end it was his negligence.
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You should be grateful he pays for your cell phone. not calling him names.
Considering how many people have sell phone plans shared between family members, or pay for a share of the family budget with the understanding that other family members pay the rest, I don't think there's really enough there to make a judgment.
I pay my in-laws the cost of my cellphone, plus a fee for the privilege of being on the plan. They are responsible for then paying the bill. If my phone is shut off because they haven't paid the bill with the money I have given them, I have reason to be irked.